Re: Stirring up dust in indoor air

[Guest guest]

Norman: most likely an overhead fan is stirring up the indoor air and

resuspending dust that contains both bacterial and fungal elements. I have

been working with two indoor specialists on disturbing the indoor air to

assimilate such activities. What we have found is that creating air currents

in the indoor air with aerosolized air cans (sterile air) significantly

resuspends particulate. As an example, an office that contained paper work

stacked about everywhere one can imagine. The building has been remediated

twice and then just before our testing was cleaned and repainted on the

interior.

Disturbing the indoor increased Aspergillus/Penicillium counts up to 250,000

spores per cubic meter in this office. A station that had computers had a

Stachybotrys count of 7000 per cubic meter.

Another area that must be looked at are the bacteria, particularly those

that produced spores. The Actinomycetes produce spores at or less than one

micron. What role are they playing?

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

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Stirring up dust in indoor air

>I have noticed a correlation between sitting in a room with overhead fans

> and contracting an upper respiratory infection. Because overhead fans

> stir

> up particulate matter which has settled out of the air, it seems to me

> that

> this creates an environment similar to being in a dust storm in an outdoor

> setting.

>

>

>

> Is there any research which points out the hazards of overhead fans?

>

>

>

> Norm Gauss

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jack, Norman, A building that was "cleaned and repainted" that generated "Aspergillus/Penicillium counts up to 250,000 spores per cubic meter " was not properly or adequately "cleaned." I would suggest you review the Chapter 4 section F on the subject of "air washing" in POST- REMEDIATION TESTING AND VERIFICATION OF MOLD AND BACTERIA REMEDIATION PROJECTS -RISK-BASED LEVELS OF CLEANLINESS ASSURANCE."If you really want to get a remediation job "clean" it must be air washed.BobOn Aug 8, 2011, at 1:59 PM, Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D. wrote:

Norman: most likely an overhead fan is stirring up the indoor air and

resuspending dust that contains both bacterial and fungal elements. I have

been working with two indoor specialists on disturbing the indoor air to

assimilate such activities. What we have found is that creating air currents

in the indoor air with aerosolized air cans (sterile air) significantly

resuspends particulate. As an example, an office that contained paper work

stacked about everywhere one can imagine. The building has been remediated

twice and then just before our testing was cleaned and repainted on the

interior.

Disturbing the indoor increased Aspergillus/Penicillium counts up to 250,000

spores per cubic meter in this office. A station that had computers had a

Stachybotrys count of 7000 per cubic meter.

Another area that must be looked at are the bacteria, particularly those

that produced spores. The Actinomycetes produce spores at or less than one

micron. What role are they playing?

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

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Stirring up dust in indoor air

>I have noticed a correlation between sitting in a room with overhead fans

> and contracting an upper respiratory infection. Because overhead fans

> stir

> up particulate matter which has settled out of the air, it seems to me

> that

> this creates an environment similar to being in a dust storm in an outdoor

> setting.

>

>

>

> Is there any research which points out the hazards of overhead fans?

>

>

>

> Norm Gauss

>

>

[Guest guest]

Cleaning off the top surface of fan blades is a huge oversight for most people. Dust settles on the blades and when the fan is turned on you get a dust storm! General dust control and periodic cleaning the dust reservoirs from upper shelves, moldings and trim should help this problem.

Amy S.

I have noticed a correlation between sitting in a room with overhead fans and contracting an upper respiratory infection. Because overhead fans stir up particulate matter which has settled out of the air, it seems to me that this creates an environment similar to being in a dust storm in an outdoor setting.

Is there any research which points out the hazards of overhead fans?

Norm Gauss

[Guest guest]

It may help, but will not cure the problem. The problem is microbial

particulates less than one micron that contain bacterial, fungal toxins and

antigens.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

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Re: Stirring up dust in indoor air

> Cleaning off the top surface of fan blades is a huge oversight for most

> people. Dust settles on the blades and when the fan is turned on you get a

> dust storm! General dust control and periodic cleaning the dust reservoirs

> from upper shelves, moldings and trim should help this problem.

>

> Amy S.

>

>

>

>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> I have noticed a correlation between sitting in a room with overhead fans

>> and

>> contracting an upper respiratory infection. Because overhead fans stir

>> up

>> particulate matter which has settled out of the air, it seems to me that

>> this

>> creates an environment similar to being in a dust storm in an outdoor

>> setting.

>>

>> Is there any research which points out the hazards of overhead fans?

>>

>> Norm Gauss

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

>

[Guest guest]

This is a litigation matter and I did not do the remediation. It involves

two buildings that we are going to trial in December. We were hired to

produce the evidence that the so called remediation was not successful. I

doubt that air washing is going to remove settled dust and fragments down to

and below one micron.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

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you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise

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Stirring up dust in indoor air

>

> >I have noticed a correlation between sitting in a room with overhead fans

> > and contracting an upper respiratory infection. Because overhead fans

> > stir

> > up particulate matter which has settled out of the air, it seems to me

> > that

> > this creates an environment similar to being in a dust storm in an

> > outdoor

> > setting.

> >

> >

> >

> > Is there any research which points out the hazards of overhead fans?

> >

> >

> >

> > Norm Gauss

> >

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dwayne, "I doubt that air washing is going to remove settled dust and fragments down to and below one micron."What is the basis for your "opinion science"? Have you conducted any research in this area? Have you readany published studies in this area? Are you an expert on aerosol particle science?I would download and read the article below. Yes, air washing works to below one micron. October 2007:ARE YOUR HEPA FILTERS DOING WHAT YOU EXPECT THEM TO?Excerpt:The term HEPA (High Efficiency Particulate Air)

Filter usually instills a level of comfort and confidence in those in the asbestos. lead, mold and radon remediation industries. HEPAs can be found in our AFDs (Air Filtration Devices) often used as air scrubbers and NAMs (Negative Air Machines), HEPA vacuums and even in our respirator filters. Basically, we use them anywhere that contaminated air is being moved. However, we recently found one instance where the HEPAs were the remediator's worst enemy ! Download Articlego to http://www.oehcs.com/ click on publications and go to the Oct. 2007 article on this research.BobOn Aug 8, 2011, at 6:04 PM, Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D. wrote:This is a litigation matter and I did not do the remediation. It involves two buildings that we are going to trial in December. We were hired to produce the evidence that the so called remediation was not successful. I doubt that air washing is going to remove settled dust and fragments down to and below one micron.Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologistwww.drthrasher.orgtoxicologist1@...Cell: Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADCTrauma Specialistsandracrawley@... - CellThis message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance. Stirring up dust in indoor airI have noticed a correlation between sitting in a room with overhead fansand contracting an upper respiratory infection. Because overhead fansstirup particulate matter which has settled out of the air, it seems to methatthis creates an environment similar to being in a dust storm in an outdoorsetting.Is there any research which points out the hazards of overhead fans?Norm Gauss------------------------------------FAIR USE NOTICE:This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

[Guest guest]

I am currently trying air washing. The reason is that I am monitoring the works of a decontamination company who are following usual protocols of negative air within critical barriers and Hepa sandwich.. The three bedroom home empty of all contents over three floors including loft was affected by a crawl space sewerage flood and uncontrolled moisture evaporation. Other contractors opened up the floor and used fans to dry the soil and joist which blew mould and other contaminates throughout. Note the only mold or contamination present is secondary aerosilisation from the crawl space, not actual growth.

The decon team are using HEPA sandwich and HEPA air scrubbers. It is a most costly and time consuming protocol which has produced variable results.

I am using dust particulate sampling 2.5 - 7.5 and 10 micron range and if dust is present so are spores (contaminates).

I realised that this was a waste of effort and I am now undertaking the following procedure as a trial.

Open all windows, use fans to blow fresh air into the building in a laminar fashion to create air flow. I installed downward facing air movers to aerosolise settled dust which may be transported out by laminar air flow. The contractor is using soft brooms to aerosolise settled spores dust and a second technician uses a leaf blower in suction mode, connected to a 2 inch hose exiting the window.

I am diluting dust(contamination) and achieving a balance between inside and ambient.

Following this process I intent to close all windows, wet fog with 30% Hydrogen Peroxide and then use ozone at very high levels for 3 hours.(30 grams per hour)

The cost of this "trial" protocol is around 20% of normal protocols which usually fail when I use a leaf blower prior to air sampling of total spore counts. I would appreciate comment good or bad. I will finish off with forced ventilation and either TSC or DNA-PCR as clearance evidence.

Jeff Charlton

London

Sent: 09 August 2011 00:23

To: iequality

Subject: Re: Stirring up dust in indoor air

This is a litigation matter and I did not do the remediation. It involves

two buildings that we are going to trial in December. We were hired to

produce the evidence that the so called remediation was not successful. I

doubt that air washing is going to remove settled dust and fragments down to

and below one micron.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this

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Stirring up dust in indoor air

>

> >I have noticed a correlation between sitting in a room with overhead fans

> > and contracting an upper respiratory infection. Because overhead fans

> > stir

> > up particulate matter which has settled out of the air, it seems to me

> > that

> > this creates an environment similar to being in a dust storm in an

> > outdoor

> > setting.

> >

> >

> >

> > Is there any research which points out the hazards of overhead fans?

> >

> >

> >

> > Norm Gauss

> >

> >

>

>

------------------------------------

FAIR USE NOTICE:

This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

[Guest guest]

You are overlooking the bacteria that are present in sewage. You will need

to culture for Gram negative and positive bacteria. The positive group

should include the Actnomycetes (Actinobacteria). See the below reference

for a start

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Taubel%20toxic%20bacteria%20and%20fungal\

%20and%20secondary%20metabolites

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

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Stirring up dust in indoor air

>

>>

>

>> >I have noticed a correlation between sitting in a room with overhead

> fans

>

>> > and contracting an upper respiratory infection. Because overhead fans

>

>> > stir

>

>> > up particulate matter which has settled out of the air, it seems to me

>

>> > that

>

>> > this creates an environment similar to being in a dust storm in an

>

>> > outdoor

>

>> > setting.

>

>> >

>

>> >

>

>> >

>

>> > Is there any research which points out the hazards of overhead fans?

>

>> >

>

>> >

>

>> >

>

>> > Norm Gauss

>

>> >

>

>> >

>

>>

>

>>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

> This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always

> been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such

> material available in our efforts to advance understanding of

> environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific,

> and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use'

> of

> any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US

> Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the

> material

> on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a

> prior interest in receiving the included information for research and

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[Guest guest]

Jack,

When someone around here makes a statement that begins with, "You will need to...", s/he needs to explain why.

It has already been determined that the whole house will be cleaned. As Ole was suggesting, why isn't cleaning of surfaces sufficient? Wouldn't any (dessicated) sewage-related bacterial cells transported on air currents from the crawl space clean up like small particles, anyway? I agree that the presence of LPS endotoxin-containing particles is a concern. What viable pathogens are you concerned about?

Steve Temes

Re: Stirring up dust in indoor air

You are overlooking the bacteria that are present in sewage. You will need

to culture for Gram negative and positive bacteria. The positive group

should include the Actnomycetes (Actinobacteria). See the below reference

for a start

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Taubel%20toxic%20bacteria%20and%20fungal%20and%20secondary%20metabolites

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

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message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly

prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this

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you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise

the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any

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Stirring up dust in indoor air

>

>>

>

>> >I have noticed a correlation between sitting in a room with overhead

> fans

>

>> > and contracting an upper respiratory infection. Because overhead fans

>

>> > stir

>

>> > up particulate matter which has settled out of the air, it seems to me

>

>> > that

>

>> > this creates an environment similar to being in a dust storm in an

>

>> > outdoor

>

>> > setting.

>

>> >

>

>> >

>

>> >

>

>> > Is there any research which points out the hazards of overhead fans?

>

>> >

>

>> >

>

>> >

>

>> > Norm Gauss

>

>> >

>

>> >

>

>>

>

>>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

> This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always

> been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such

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> environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific,

> and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use'

> of

> any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US

> Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the

> material

> on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a

> prior interest in receiving the included information for research and

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[Guest guest]

I am an expert on the toxicology of indoor contaminants. The crux is can the

building or home be re-occupied after so called remediation by the occupants

who had been injured in the first place. Occasionally yes, most often no.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

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This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

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Stirring up dust in indoor air

>>

>>> I have noticed a correlation between sitting in a room with overhead

>>> fans

>>> and contracting an upper respiratory infection. Because overhead fans

>>> stir

>>> up particulate matter which has settled out of the air, it seems to me

>>> that

>>> this creates an environment similar to being in a dust storm in an

>>> outdoor

>>> setting.

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Is there any research which points out the hazards of overhead fans?

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Norm Gauss

>>>

>>>

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

> This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always

> been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such

> material available in our efforts to advance understanding of

> environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific,

> and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use'

> of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US

> Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the

> material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have

> expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for

> research and educational purposes. For more information go to:

> http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use

> copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go

> beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.

>

[Guest guest]

I did not say do not clean. My concern is re-occupation by the affected

occupants. Before cleaning can be said to be perfect, one needs to look at

the occupants health after re-entering the cleaned environment. In every

case I have involved in this has not been done.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

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This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

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Stirring up dust in indoor air

>

>>

>

>> >I have noticed a correlation between sitting in a room with overhead

> fans

>

>> > and contracting an upper respiratory infection. Because overhead fans

>

>> > stir

>

>> > up particulate matter which has settled out of the air, it seems to me

>

>> > that

>

>> > this creates an environment similar to being in a dust storm in an

>

>> > outdoor

>

>> > setting.

>

>> >

>

>> >

>

>> >

>

>> > Is there any research which points out the hazards of overhead fans?

>

>> >

>

>> >

>

>> >

>

>> > Norm Gauss

>

>> >

>

>> >

>

>>

>

>>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

> FAIR USE NOTICE:

>

>

> This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always

> been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such

> material available in our efforts to advance understanding of

> environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific,

> and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use'

> of

> any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US

> Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the

> material

> on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a

> prior interest in receiving the included information for research and

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[Guest guest]

Two observations as a sensitized person:

1. We found that the ceiling fans in our home did not make an airtight

connection to the electrical box in the ceiling, which despite my repeated

caulking still leaked air from the attic (or the space between floors). So in

addition to throwing dust off the fan blades and stirring up dust in the room,

the fans were actively supplying air to the room from what (to us) was an

undesirable source. We removed all such fans from our home 10 years ago.

2. During the extensive testing we had done in our " sick house " 15 years ago,

roughly 5 months after we evacuated to an apartment, one anecdote stands out. I

was in the house without reaction, with a consultant doing aggressive mold

sampling. When the consultant started beating couch cushions to resuspend dust,

I had an immediate (non immune mediated) systemic reaction; he and his colleague

did not. Although it took a week for that dust to settle, I was able to stop

the reaction by putting on a dust mask (by which I mean a half face respirator

with HEPA cartridges) and remain in the house. The mold plates, by the way,

showed nothing unusual. My point: the current consensus enumerating the ways

people can react to dust is incomplete, people can be sensitized to a component

of an indoor dust which it is not current practice/capability to test for.

-steve

stevec@...

>

> I have noticed a correlation between sitting in a room with overhead fans

> and contracting an upper respiratory infection. Because overhead fans stir

> up particulate matter which has settled out of the air, it seems to me that

> this creates an environment similar to being in a dust storm in an outdoor

> setting.

>

>

>

> Is there any research which points out the hazards of overhead fans?

>

>

>

> Norm Gauss

>

[Guest guest]

Jack wrote: "I did not say do not clean."

That's right, Jack, you didn't. You said, "You will need to culture for Gram negative and positive bacteria."

Now you need to say why there is a need to culture for these organisms. I'm assuming that you think you have a scientific, health-based reason for this "need" in the context of this discussion. What is it?

BTW, cleaning should never be said to be perfect. It doesn't even address residual VOCs. And responses that start with, "I am an expert on the toxicology of indoor contaminants" don't carry much weight around here. There are some real scientists with a lot of experience reading your comments. Why would any of us take your word for anything when you tell us what we need to do?

Steve Temes

I did not say do not clean. My concern is re-occupation by the affected

occupants. Before cleaning can be said to be perfect, one needs to look at

the occupants health after re-entering the cleaned environment. In every

case I have involved in this has not been done.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

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Re: Stirring up dust in indoor air

You are overlooking the bacteria that are present in sewage. You will need

to culture for Gram negative and positive bacteria. The positive group

should include the Actnomycetes (Actinobacteria). See the below reference

for a start

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Taubel%20toxic%20bacteria%20and%20fungal%20and%20secondary%20metabolites

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

[Guest guest]

Steve: There have been several papers published on the presence of Gram

negative and positive bacteria and their toxins in addition to fungi and

their toxins. I suggest that you go to Pubmed and do a literature search. In

addition, I have just submitted for publication a detailed paper on fungi,

bacteria, mycotoxins and the ill health, including neurological and

upper/lower respiratory heath effects in a family of five. We identifier

Pseudomonas aueroginosa and Penicllium in the sinus biopsy materials of the

father and Acinetobacter and Aspergillus fumigatus from the daughter. The

family has mycotoxins in their urine, nasal secretions and mother's

umbilical cord, placenta and breast milk. The major mycotoxin was Ochratoxin

A.

Yes, there are pathogenic bacteria and their toxins in water damaged

structures. You can go to my website also if you wish and you will find

sufficient references on this subject.

We are working on a building in San Francisco at the present time. In swab

samples we have isolated Mycobacterium species in the millions/swab.

Mycobacterium are associated with severe lung disease and a condition

referred to as Mycobacterium Avium Complex.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this

message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly

prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this

message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If

you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise

the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any

copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance.

Re: Stirring up dust in indoor air

>>

>> You are overlooking the bacteria that are present in sewage. You will

>> need

>> to culture for Gram negative and positive bacteria. The positive group

>> should include the Actnomycetes (Actinobacteria). See the below reference

>> for a start

>>

>>

>>

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Taubel%20toxic%20bacteria%20and%20fungal\

%20and%20secondary%20metabolites

>>

>> Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

>> Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

>> www.drthrasher.org

>> toxicologist1@...

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Good areas to check for contamination are those places that normally do not

get cleaned, e.g., under appliances, refrigerator insulation and coils, and

as you discovered ceiling fans. Just think of all the places in the home

that are not routinely cleaned or dusted.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this

message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly

prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this

message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If

you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise

the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any

copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance.

Re: Stirring up dust in indoor air

Two observations as a sensitized person:

1. We found that the ceiling fans in our home did not make an airtight

connection to the electrical box in the ceiling, which despite my repeated

caulking still leaked air from the attic (or the space between floors). So

in addition to throwing dust off the fan blades and stirring up dust in the

room, the fans were actively supplying air to the room from what (to us) was

an undesirable source. We removed all such fans from our home 10 years ago.

2. During the extensive testing we had done in our " sick house " 15 years

ago, roughly 5 months after we evacuated to an apartment, one anecdote

stands out. I was in the house without reaction, with a consultant doing

aggressive mold sampling. When the consultant started beating couch

cushions to resuspend dust, I had an immediate (non immune mediated)

systemic reaction; he and his colleague did not. Although it took a week

for that dust to settle, I was able to stop the reaction by putting on a

dust mask (by which I mean a half face respirator with HEPA cartridges) and

remain in the house. The mold plates, by the way, showed nothing unusual.

My point: the current consensus enumerating the ways people can react to

dust is incomplete, people can be sensitized to a component of an indoor

dust which it is not current practice/capability to test for.

-steve

stevec@...

>

> I have noticed a correlation between sitting in a room with overhead fans

> and contracting an upper respiratory infection. Because overhead fans

> stir

> up particulate matter which has settled out of the air, it seems to me

> that

> this creates an environment similar to being in a dust storm in an outdoor

> setting.

>

>

>

> Is there any research which points out the hazards of overhead fans?

>

>

>

> Norm Gauss

>

[Guest guest]

Jack wrote:

We identifier Pseudomonas aueroginosa and Penicllium in the sinus biopsy materials of the

father and Acinetobacter and Aspergillus fumigatus from the daughter. The family has mycotoxins in their urine, nasal secretions and mother's umbilical cord, placenta and breast milk. The major mycotoxin was Ochratoxin A.

Jack,

What symptoms do you attribute to the presence of these organisms or their toxins; how do you know which, if any, of these substances are causative; and what biological mechanisms are involved in the symptomology?

Why is there a need to culture for Gram negative and positive bacteria when the building is dry and you are going to clean the whole house anyway? You are telling us we need to do specific testing within a given context, but not telling us why - as if we should trust you because you are "an expert" and have read "the literature". I'm sorry, I don't trust your "trust me science" at all.

You clearly do a lot of testing.... and then, apparently, a lot of assuming. You are all over the place, and seemingly incapable of answering a direct question.

Steve Temes

Re: Stirring up dust in indoor air

Steve: There have been several papers published on the presence of Gram

negative and positive bacteria and their toxins in addition to fungi and

their toxins. I suggest that you go to Pubmed and do a literature search. In

addition, I have just submitted for publication a detailed paper on fungi,

bacteria, mycotoxins and the ill health, including neurological and

upper/lower respiratory heath effects in a family of five. We identifier

Pseudomonas aueroginosa and Penicllium in the sinus biopsy materials of the

father and Acinetobacter and Aspergillus fumigatus from the daughter. The

family has mycotoxins in their urine, nasal secretions and mother's

umbilical cord, placenta and breast milk. The major mycotoxin was Ochratoxin

A.

Yes, there are pathogenic bacteria and their toxins in water damaged

structures. You can go to my website also if you wish and you will find

sufficient references on this subject.

We are working on a building in San Francisco at the present time. In swab

samples we have isolated Mycobacterium species in the millions/swab.

Mycobacterium are associated with severe lung disease and a condition

referred to as Mycobacterium Avium Complex.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this

message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly

prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this

message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If

you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise

the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any

copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance.

Re: Stirring up dust in indoor air

>>

>> You are overlooking the bacteria that are present in sewage. You will

>> need

>> to culture for Gram negative and positive bacteria. The positive group

>> should include the Actnomycetes (Actinobacteria). See the below reference

>> for a start

>>

>>

>> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Taubel%20toxic%20bacteria%20and%20fungal%20and%20secondary%20metabolites

>>

>> Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

>> Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

>> www.drthrasher.org

>> toxicologist1@...

>>

>>

>>

>>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Steve,

I guess I am going to have to interject here as your comments in my opinion are completely out of line. Wasn't there just recently a post about civility and not attacking people, or perhaps it was the field in general, I can't fully recall the specifics.?

Why should they listen to Jack? Well, have you seen his CV? Are you aware that he is called in as an expert witness internationally, not just here in the states, for litigants and government agencies? Numerous peer reviewed articles for starters.

Please do not take offense with the following query, just what besides being an Industrial Hygienist and Council-Certified Microbial Consultant, make you more knowledgeable than a seasoned Ph.D? I am going to make the assumption that you either have a BS or MS in the biological sciences as referenced on your website.

Is there no room to learn or do CIH credentials, in general, have the ultimate 'knowledge' and anything else is a non sequitor?

Aside from personally using Jack in litigation and also having him as the National Toxic Encephalopathy Foundation's Technical Director, I have first hand working knowledge of his expertise. I have watched him during trial and he blew away the opponents 'experts' aka CIH's etc., as if they were a gnat to remove.

His recommendation regarding 'cleaning' all areas is something that should be common sense to anyone in IAQ and especially when dealing with those who have environmentally mediated injures/disabilities. Which ironically you did reference hypersensitivity on your web So why would making sure all contaminates are removed being called into question, if you understand hypersensitivity?

I am truly confused, with your query regarding "need to culture for these organisms", as they do in fact have an impact upon the body and as such need to be identified and resolved. The 'scientists' that you referenced that monitor this group should know that with genetic variations there is no 'hard core' level of 'acceptability'. What doesn't bother one can debilitate another as you are fully aware.

For example, here in Vegas there is a building that had water intrusion issues, and 'supposedly' remidated, yet, employees are still complaining and getting sick. I know the County Commissioner who is associated with the area and had to 'educate' her on IAQ issues which they are now reviewing the 'testing' and susceptibility of the employees. Who most likely will use Jack as they wanted his information.

Angel De Fazio, BSAT

President/Executive Director

National Toxic Encephalopathy

Re: Stirring up dust in indoor air

Jack wrote: "I did not say do not clean."

That's right, Jack, you didn't. You said, "You will need to culture for Gram negative and positive bacteria."

Now you need to say why there is a need to culture for these organisms. I'm assuming that you think you have a scientific, health-based reason for this "need" in the context of this discussion. What is it?

BTW, cleaning should never be said to be perfect. It doesn't even address residual VOCs. And responses that start with, "I am an expert on the toxicology of indoor contaminants" don't carry much weight around here. There are some real scientists with a lot of experience reading your comments. Why would any of us take your word for anything when you tell us what we need to do?

Steve Temes

I did not say do not clean. My concern is re-occupation by the affected

occupants. Before cleaning can be said to be perfect, one needs to look at

the occupants health after re-entering the cleaned environment. In every

case I have involved in this has not been done.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this

message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly

prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this

message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If

you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise

the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any

copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance.

Re: Stirring up dust in indoor air

You are overlooking the bacteria that are present in sewage. You will need

to culture for Gram negative and positive bacteria. The positive group

should include the Actnomycetes (Actinobacteria). See the below reference

for a start

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Taubel%20toxic%20bacteria%20and%20fungal%20and%20secondary%20metabolites

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

[Guest guest]

Angel wrote:

What doesn't bother one can debilitate another as you are fully aware.

No offense taken, Angel. I am largely informed by my work performing investigations of building-related health effects over a period of about 20 years. I have inspected many hundreds of buildings and interviewed thousands of occupants regarding their building-related symptoms.

Yes, I am fully aware of the fact that different individuals can react much differently to chemical and biological exposures, especially at low concentrations. I wonder how a toxicologist views this medical phenomenon. What causes people to develop hypersensitivities to contaminants in water-damaged buildings? What causes them to develop new-onset respiratory and neurologic symptoms, and how?

Testing for "everything biological" and then saying that what you found caused the symptoms, without verifying that exposure to what you found actually caused the symptoms, isn't science. It is associational at best.

As you are fully aware, people can become chemically sensitive as a result of their exposure to contaminants in water-damaged buildings. What does Dr. Thrasher have to say about that?

Steve Temes

Re: Stirring up dust in indoor air

Jack wrote: "I did not say do not clean."

That's right, Jack, you didn't. You said, "You will need to culture for Gram negative and positive bacteria."

Now you need to say why there is a need to culture for these organisms. I'm assuming that you think you have a scientific, health-based reason for this "need" in the context of this discussion. What is it?

BTW, cleaning should never be said to be perfect. It doesn't even address residual VOCs. And responses that start with, "I am an expert on the toxicology of indoor contaminants" don't carry much weight around here. There are some real scientists with a lot of experience reading your comments. Why would any of us take your word for anything when you tell us what we need to do?

Steve Temes

I did not say do not clean. My concern is re-occupation by the affected

occupants. Before cleaning can be said to be perfect, one needs to look at

the occupants health after re-entering the cleaned environment. In every

case I have involved in this has not been done.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this

message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly

prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this

message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If

you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise

the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any

copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance.

Re: Stirring up dust in indoor air

You are overlooking the bacteria that are present in sewage. You will need

to culture for Gram negative and positive bacteria. The positive group

should include the Actnomycetes (Actinobacteria). See the below reference

for a start

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Taubel%20toxic%20bacteria%20and%20fungal%20and%20secondary%20metabolites

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

[Guest guest]

Hi Steve,

I am glad that I didn't offend you with my statement.

I don't speak for Jack, he speaks for himself.

I do know, and this is my statement not Jack's, that regarding pulmonary issues, the inhalation of the spores have a major contributory effect upon those exposed in a water damaged structure.

One can 'speculate' that the causation resulting in hypersensitivity can be associated with the same immunological issues as with those who are reactive to chemicals albeit aliphatic/aromatic. Possibly an enzyme is missing to detoxify, as we still do know know everything about the human body.

There is major research going on to try and identify why there is such a high prevalence of chemical hypersensitivity currently being diagnosed internationally.

Angel

Re: Stirring up dust in indoor air

Jack wrote: "I did not say do not clean."

That's right, Jack, you didn't. You said, "You will need to culture for Gram negative and positive bacteria."

Now you need to say why there is a need to culture for these organisms. I'm assuming that you think you have a scientific, health-based reason for this "need" in the context of this discussion. What is it?

BTW, cleaning should never be said to be perfect. It doesn't even address residual VOCs. And responses that start with, "I am an expert on the toxicology of indoor contaminants" don't carry much weight around here. There are some real scientists with a lot of experience reading your comments. Why would any of us take your word for anything when you tell us what we need to do?

Steve Temes

I did not say do not clean. My concern is re-occupation by the affected

occupants. Before cleaning can be said to be perfect, one needs to look at

the occupants health after re-entering the cleaned environment. In every

case I have involved in this has not been done.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this

message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly

prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this

message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If

you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise

the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any

copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance.

Re: Stirring up dust in indoor air

You are overlooking the bacteria that are present in sewage. You will need

to culture for Gram negative and positive bacteria. The positive group

should include the Actnomycetes (Actinobacteria). See the below reference

for a start

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Taubel%20toxic%20bacteria%20and%20fungal%20and%20secondary%20metabolites

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

[Guest guest]

Hi Steve,

I am glad that I didn't offend you with my statement.

I don't speak for Jack, he speaks for himself.

I do know, and this is my statement not Jack's, that regarding pulmonary issues, the inhalation of the spores have a major contributory effect upon those exposed in a water damaged structure.

One can 'speculate' that the causation resulting in hypersensitivity can be associated with the same immunological issues as with those who are reactive to chemicals albeit aliphatic/aromatic. Possibly an enzyme is missing to detoxify, as we still do know know everything about the human body.

There is major research going on to try and identify why there is such a high prevalence of chemical hypersensitivity currently being diagnosed internationally.

Angel

Re: Stirring up dust in indoor air

Jack wrote: "I did not say do not clean."

That's right, Jack, you didn't. You said, "You will need to culture for Gram negative and positive bacteria."

Now you need to say why there is a need to culture for these organisms. I'm assuming that you think you have a scientific, health-based reason for this "need" in the context of this discussion. What is it?

BTW, cleaning should never be said to be perfect. It doesn't even address residual VOCs. And responses that start with, "I am an expert on the toxicology of indoor contaminants" don't carry much weight around here. There are some real scientists with a lot of experience reading your comments. Why would any of us take your word for anything when you tell us what we need to do?

Steve Temes

I did not say do not clean. My concern is re-occupation by the affected

occupants. Before cleaning can be said to be perfect, one needs to look at

the occupants health after re-entering the cleaned environment. In every

case I have involved in this has not been done.

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...

Cell:

Lee Crawley, M.ED., LADC

Trauma Specialist

sandracrawley@...

- Cell

This message and any attachments forwarded with it is to be considered

privileged and confidential. The forwarding or redistribution of this

message (and any attachments) without my prior written consent is strictly

prohibited and may violate privacy laws. Once the intended purpose of this

message has been served, please destroy the original message contents. If

you have received this message in error, please reply immediately to advise

the sender of the miscommunication and then delete the message and any

copies you have printed. Thank you in advance for your compliance.

Re: Stirring up dust in indoor air

You are overlooking the bacteria that are present in sewage. You will need

to culture for Gram negative and positive bacteria. The positive group

should include the Actnomycetes (Actinobacteria). See the below reference

for a start

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Taubel%20toxic%20bacteria%20and%20fungal%20and%20secondary%20metabolites

Jack Dwayne Thrasher, Ph.D.

Toxicologist/Immunotoxicologist/Fetaltoxicologist

www.drthrasher.org

toxicologist1@...