Re: Camonhil and mold fallacy

[Guest guest]

Jeff Charlton wrote:

"I have a major problem with clearance too, I have several clients so sensitised to mold in their homes they had to leave and leave their possessions too.One asked me to clean a lap top and while I don't generally do decontamination I tried to assist. I know I should have dismantled the note book but I didn't and air brushed it outside at 100 PSI. I sprayed Hydrogen Peroxide 42% onto to it and left it in the sun for an hour to dry.

Wiped over the surfaces again with damp cloth to remove any residue. She still couldn't go near the notebook which she desperately wanted to use as it contained irreplaceable personal stuff.

IMO, this is when you should be thinking about acquired hypersensitivities to VOCs, esp. MVOCs, as a cause of symptoms.

Steve Temes

Thanks Sharon and everyone's input.

I have read Camonhil web site and was just about to throw my sampling and investigation equipment into the trash can when I suddenly understood that I actually agreed with much of what he says.

Every statement and reference has all the usual caveats any mold inspector would have, but his appear to be the reverse of everyone's else. Instead of saying "Your house has mould contamination which may be a health hazard" he might say "Your house has no mould health hazard present (which is detectable) (by my limited investigation) (which is a proven as a known pathogen) provable"

Camonhil says he has read over 600 mold reports and not one was accepted as accurate and then goes on to say it would take 3 days of sampling just to prove clearance.I could then as he does that depends on the time of year barometric pressure etc etc.

I have a major problem with clearance too, I have several clients so sensitised to mold in their homes they had to leave and leave their possessions too.One asked me to clean a lap top and while I don't generally do decontamination I tried to assist. I know I should have dismantled the note book but I didn't and air brushed it outside at 100 PSI. I sprayed Hydrogen Peroxide 42% onto to it and left it in the sun for an hour to dry.

Wiped over the surfaces again with damp cloth to remove any residue. She still couldn't go near the notebook which she desperately wanted to use as it contained irreplaceable personal stuff.

How can anyone get clearance from mycotoxins when they can't be measured?

The best lab I got was bulk sampling for mycotoxins at 1000 dollars and that took several weeks and they or anyone else can't sample air or dust for mycotoxins.

Mr. Camonhil has now been invited to UK to put us all straight on mold and his audience is surveyors and property care groups. I have had the usual web discussion with them and have to debate with scientists that "stop the water the mold will go" they also Google no proven health links to mold.

I just had one of these surveyors tell landlords the family living in a home all suffering from asthma, loss of hair, skin rashes and CFS that the mould present in several ceiling from 8 years of water leaks wasn't a health risk because he couldn't smell or see mould. That's an accepted surveyors definition in the UK. He went on to say any mould present was from a Christmas tree based on an article he saw in a daily newspaper.

I think Fred Flintstone would understand more.

Regards

Jeff Charlton

London

[Guest guest]

Jeff,

Like I said, "goofy spins".

Have you ever read the book by OSHA head, Dr. s, called "Doubt is their product, how industry's assault on science threatens your health"? I would highly recommend it.

Sharon

Thanks Sharon and everyone's input.

I have read Camonhil web site and was just about to throw my sampling and investigation equipment into the trash can when I suddenly understood that I actually agreed with much of what he says.

Every statement and reference has all the usual caveats any mold inspector would have, but his appear to be the reverse of everyone's else. Instead of saying "Your house has mould contamination which may be a health hazard" he might say "Your house has no mould health hazard present (which is detectable) (by my limited investigation) (which is a proven as a known pathogen) provable"

Camonhil says he has read over 600 mold reports and not one was accepted as accurate and then goes on to say it would take 3 days of sampling just to prove clearance.I could then as he does that depends on the time of year barometric pressure etc etc.

I have a major problem with clearance too, I have several clients so sensitised to mold in their homes they had to leave and leave their possessions too.One asked me to clean a lap top and while I don't generally do decontamination I tried to assist. I know I should have dismantled the note book but I didn't and air brushed it outside at 100 PSI. I sprayed Hydrogen Peroxide 42% onto to it and left it in the sun for an hour to dry.

Wiped over the surfaces again with damp cloth to remove any residue. She still couldn't go near the notebook which she desperately wanted to use as it contained irreplaceable personal stuff.

How can anyone get clearance from mycotoxins when they can't be measured?

The best lab I got was bulk sampling for mycotoxins at 1000 dollars and that took several weeks and they or anyone else can't sample air or dust for mycotoxins.

Mr. Camonhil has now been invited to UK to put us all straight on mold and his audience is surveyors and property care groups. I have had the usual web discussion with them and have to debate with scientists that "stop the water the mold will go" they also Google no proven health links to mold.

I just had one of these surveyors tell landlords the family living in a home all suffering from asthma, loss of hair, skin rashes and CFS that the mould present in several ceiling from 8 years of water leaks wasn't a health risk because he couldn't smell or see mould. That's an accepted surveyors definition in the UK. He went on to say any mould present was from a Christmas tree based on an article he saw in a daily newspaper.

I think Fred Flintstone would understand more.

Regards

Jeff Charlton

London

Sharon Noonan Kramer

[Guest guest]

Steve

I accept this, but the cleaning I did was substantial and not repeatable over all contents, The problem is that while I accept this is a genuine case, if insurers accept this case they open a flood gate to possible fraud. Apart from say so , how can anyone prove sensitivity to specific items and how can you measure these unknown MVOCs when they are possibly immeasurable?

I have been unable to find a measurement for mycotoxins and I suspect VOCs and MVOCs at these levels are also immeasurable.

I recently had another client who suffered similarly from a low oxygen slow burning fire in a microwave, her house is contaminated with a range of contaminates , identified from a 400 chemical IRGC scan but insurers experts stated concentrations were below action levels??

MOLD

I saw a link to an article last week, not sure if it was this group, Monsanto the crop DNA engineers and manufacturers of Roundup, the weed killer what everyone seems to use in their gardens here, are said to be responsible for the development of Fusarium very toxic mold which is appearing , possibly due to the genetic engineering it has created? Anyone have any news?

Regards

Jeff Charlton

London

-----Original Message-----From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]On Behalf Of AirwaysEnv@...Sent: 30 June 2011 14:38To: iequality Subject: Re: Camonhil and mold fallacy

Jeff Charlton wrote:"I have a major problem with clearance too, I have several clients so sensitised to mold in their homes they had to leave and leave their possessions too.One asked me to clean a lap top and while I don't generally do decontamination I tried to assist. I know I should have dismantled the note book but I didn't and air brushed it outside at 100 PSI. I sprayed Hydrogen Peroxide 42% onto to it and left it in the sun for an hour to dry.Wiped over the surfaces again with damp cloth to remove any residue. She still couldn't go near the notebook which she desperately wanted to use as it contained irreplaceable personal stuff.IMO, this is when you should be thinking about acquired hypersensitivities to VOCs, esp. MVOCs, as a cause of symptoms.Steve Temes

Thanks Sharon and everyone's input. I have read Camonhil web site and was just about to throw my sampling and investigation equipment into the trash can when I suddenly understood that I actually agreed with much of what he says. Every statement and reference has all the usual caveats any mold inspector would have, but his appear to be the reverse of everyone's else. Instead of saying "Your house has mould contamination which may be a health hazard" he might say "Your house has no mould health hazard present (which is detectable) (by my limited investigation) (which is a proven as a known pathogen) provable"Camonhil says he has read over 600 mold reports and not one was accepted as accurate and then goes on to say it would take 3 days of sampling just to prove clearance.I could then as he does that depends on the time of year barometric pressure etc etc. I have a major problem with clearance too, I have several clients so sensitised to mold in their homes they had to leave and leave their possessions too.One asked me to clean a lap top and while I don't generally do decontamination I tried to assist. I know I should have dismantled the note book but I didn't and air brushed it outside at 100 PSI. I sprayed Hydrogen Peroxide 42% onto to it and left it in the sun for an hour to dry.Wiped over the surfaces again with damp cloth to remove any residue. She still couldn't go near the notebook which she desperately wanted to use as it contained irreplaceable personal stuff.How can anyone get clearance from mycotoxins when they can't be measured? The best lab I got was bulk sampling for mycotoxins at 1000 dollars and that took several weeks and they or anyone else can't sample air or dust for mycotoxins. Mr. Camonhil has now been invited to UK to put us all straight on mold and his audience is surveyors and property care groups. I have had the usual web discussion with them and have to debate with scientists that "stop the water the mold will go" they also Google no proven health links to mold. I just had one of these surveyors tell landlords the family living in a home all suffering from asthma, loss of hair, skin rashes and CFS that the mould present in several ceiling from 8 years of water leaks wasn't a health risk because he couldn't smell or see mould. That's an accepted surveyors definition in the UK. He went on to say any mould present was from a Christmas tree based on an article he saw in a daily newspaper.I think Fred Flintstone would understand more.RegardsJeff CharltonLondon

[Guest guest]

Steve, you write, "Decisions should be made with this likelihood in mind. If they are 'faking it', they probably won't sue."

That is a very valid point. Its hard enough to prove a location was the causation of illness when one is not faking it. Fakers don't stand a chance and could find much easier scams out there if they were so inclined.

This is a good thing from two aspects:

1. If a property was returned to pre-loss condition, IAQ people have little to fear of being sued by feigners, fakers and scammers.

2. Fakers need to be shut down before they even get started. They make matters harder for those who are truly ill and in need help.

In my years in this issue, I have only come across a handful that I think may have tried to scam the system. (meaning those feigning illness). I am not aware of one of them being successful or even getting off the ground with the scam.

Sharon

Sharon Noonan Kramer

[Guest guest]

Regarding: "I accept this, but the cleaning I did was substantial and not repeatable over all contents, The problem is that while I accept this is a genuine case, if insurers accept this case they open a flood gate to possible fraud. Apart from say so , how can anyone prove sensitivity to specific items and how can you measure these unknown MVOCs when they are possibly immeasurable?"

Jeff,

In my view, best practices for mold remediation are focused on particle removal only. Clearance typically involves assuring that dust reservoirs have been removed (white glove test) and testing for residual spores in the air or on surfaces in the remediation work area. When the cleaning procedure has been determined by occupants to be inadequate due to persisting health complaints, the response is to re-clean. What is left to clean? Evidently, you suspect that mycotoxins are causing the health effects. "True" mycotoxins are semi-volatile at best. VOCs, on the other hand, do not clean up with damp-wiping and HEPA-vacuuming. They become absorbed into porous materials based upon the physical properties of the molecules (3-dimensional size, polarity, functional groups, covalent bonding, etc.), and desorb or off-gas at one rate or another.

According to ACGIH "Bioaerosols: Assessment and Control" Chapter 15, the ultimate clearance criterion is that people can re-occupy without health complaints post-remediation. That is the bottom line -- not whether there are "no spores" or some spores or mycotoxins. It is possible to perform the best mold remediation procedure (according to current professional guidelines, that is) and still leave a home or workplace uninhabitable for a sensitive individual.

Your point about how to prove sensitivity to something that causes health effects at low concentrations and objectively measure the presence of the causative substance, if it is even feasible or possible to identify, in order to prevent insurance fraud is well taken. I look at it this way, if someone cannot live in their own home and can't even take their belongings with them, they are more likely than anyone to become desperate and destitute and to spend their last dollar on an attorney to sue anyone and everyone they can to try to get their lives back. Decisions should be made with this likelihood in mind. If they are "faking it", they probably won't sue.

Steve Temes

Re: Camonhil and mold fallacy

Jeff Charlton wrote:

"I have a major problem with clearance too, I have several clients so sensitised to mold in their homes they had to leave and leave their possessions too.One asked me to clean a lap top and while I don't generally do decontamination I tried to assist. I know I should have dismantled the note book but I didn't and air brushed it outside at 100 PSI. I sprayed Hydrogen Peroxide 42% onto to it and left it in the sun for an hour to dry.

Wiped over the surfaces again with damp cloth to remove any residue. She still couldn't go near the notebook which she desperately wanted to use as it contained irreplaceable personal stuff.

IMO, this is when you should be thinking about acquired hypersensitivities to VOCs, esp. MVOCs, as a cause of symptoms.

Steve Temes

Thanks Sharon and everyone's input.

I have read Camonhil web site and was just about to throw my sampling and investigation equipment into the trash can when I suddenly understood that I actually agreed with much of what he says.

Every statement and reference has all the usual caveats any mold inspector would have, but his appear to be the reverse of everyone's else. Instead of saying "Your house has mould contamination which may be a health hazard" he might say "Your house has no mould health hazard present (which is detectable) (by my limited investigation) (which is a proven as a known pathogen) provable"

Camonhil says he has read over 600 mold reports and not one was accepted as accurate and then goes on to say it would take 3 days of sampling just to prove clearance.I could then as he does that depends on the time of year barometric pressure etc etc.

I have a major problem with clearance too, I have several clients so sensitised to mold in their homes they had to leave and leave their possessions too.One asked me to clean a lap top and while I don't generally do decontamination I tried to assist. I know I should have dismantled the note book but I didn't and air brushed it outside at 100 PSI. I sprayed Hydrogen Peroxide 42% onto to it and left it in the sun for an hour to dry.

Wiped over the surfaces again with damp cloth to remove any residue. She still couldn't go near the notebook which she desperately wanted to use as it contained irreplaceable personal stuff.

How can anyone get clearance from mycotoxins when they can't be measured?

The best lab I got was bulk sampling for mycotoxins at 1000 dollars and that took several weeks and they or anyone else can't sample air or dust for mycotoxins.

Mr. Camonhil has now been invited to UK to put us all straight on mold and his audience is surveyors and property care groups. I have had the usual web discussion with them and have to debate with scientists that "stop the water the mold will go" they also Google no proven health links to mold.

I just had one of these surveyors tell landlords the family living in a home all suffering from asthma, loss of hair, skin rashes and CFS that the mould present in several ceiling from 8 years of water leaks wasn't a health risk because he couldn't smell or see mould. That's an accepted surveyors definition in the UK. He went on to say any mould present was from a Christmas tree based on an article he saw in a daily newspaper.

I think Fred Flintstone would understand more.

Regards

Jeff Charlton

London

[Guest guest]



Steve

I have supervised the cleaning of other water damaged properties and have a real time GRIMM particulate meter running between 2.5 and 10 micron. The contractor cleaned several times and we got down to incredibly low levels of dust, Total spore counts showed almost zero.The test room was entered and people went red in the face from something.

I have a suspicion that some of the metabolites which are non volatile or water soluble, may as you suggest have static charges and bond to surfaces.

I have at some point have to say this is OK but I can only say its OK for me (I hope) and other visitors. I have a suspicion that we should investigate the genetics of loss adjusters, (public assessors) as they never seem to be affected by anything.

By the way I did some total spore counts here and didn't pick up some small areas of mould (Chaetomium) despite sampling just a few feet from visible growth.I also did PCR DNA with disturbed and still air and you would think it was a different building because the differences were enormous.

Thanks for input

Jeff

London

RE: Camonhil and mold fallacy

Steve

I accept this, but the cleaning I did was substantial and not repeatable over all contents, The problem is that while I accept this is a genuine case, if insurers accept this case they open a flood gate to possible fraud. Apart from say so , how can anyone prove sensitivity to specific items and how can you measure these unknown MVOCs when they are possibly immeasurable?

I have been unable to find a measurement for mycotoxins and I suspect VOCs and MVOCs at these levels are also immeasurable.

I recently had another client who suffered similarly from a low oxygen slow burning fire in a microwave, her house is contaminated with a range of contaminates , identified from a 400 chemical IRGC scan but insurers experts stated concentrations were below action levels??

MOLD

I saw a link to an article last week, not sure if it was this group, Monsanto the crop DNA engineers and manufacturers of Roundup, the weed killer what everyone seems to use in their gardens here, are said to be responsible for the development of Fusarium very toxic mold which is appearing , possibly due to the genetic engineering it has created? Anyone have any news?

Regards

Jeff Charlton

London

-----Original Message-----From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]On Behalf Of AirwaysEnv@...Sent: 30 June 2011 14:38To: iequality Subject: Re: Camonhil and mold fallacy

Jeff Charlton wrote:"I have a major problem with clearance too, I have several clients so sensitised to mold in their homes they had to leave and leave their possessions too.One asked me to clean a lap top and while I don't generally do decontamination I tried to assist. I know I should have dismantled the note book but I didn't and air brushed it outside at 100 PSI. I sprayed Hydrogen Peroxide 42% onto to it and left it in the sun for an hour to dry.Wiped over the surfaces again with damp cloth to remove any residue. She still couldn't go near the notebook which she desperately wanted to use as it contained irreplaceable personal stuff.IMO, this is when you should be thinking about acquired hypersensitivities to VOCs, esp. MVOCs, as a cause of symptoms.Steve Temes

Thanks Sharon and everyone's input. I have read Camonhil web site and was just about to throw my sampling and investigation equipment into the trash can when I suddenly understood that I actually agreed with much of what he says. Every statement and reference has all the usual caveats any mold inspector would have, but his appear to be the reverse of everyone's else. Instead of saying "Your house has mould contamination which may be a health hazard" he might say "Your house has no mould health hazard present (which is detectable) (by my limited investigation) (which is a proven as a known pathogen) provable"Camonhil says he has read over 600 mold reports and not one was accepted as accurate and then goes on to say it would take 3 days of sampling just to prove clearance.I could then as he does that depends on the time of year barometric pressure etc etc. I have a major problem with clearance too, I have several clients so sensitised to mold in their homes they had to leave and leave their possessions too.One asked me to clean a lap top and while I don't generally do decontamination I tried to assist. I know I should have dismantled the note book but I didn't and air brushed it outside at 100 PSI. I sprayed Hydrogen Peroxide 42% onto to it and left it in the sun for an hour to dry.Wiped over the surfaces again with damp cloth to remove any residue. She still couldn't go near the notebook which she desperately wanted to use as it contained irreplaceable personal stuff.How can anyone get clearance from mycotoxins when they can't be measured? The best lab I got was bulk sampling for mycotoxins at 1000 dollars and that took several weeks and they or anyone else can't sample air or dust for mycotoxins. Mr. Camonhil has now been invited to UK to put us all straight on mold and his audience is surveyors and property care groups. I have had the usual web discussion with them and have to debate with scientists that "stop the water the mold will go" they also Google no proven health links to mold. I just had one of these surveyors tell landlords the family living in a home all suffering from asthma, loss of hair, skin rashes and CFS that the mould present in several ceiling from 8 years of water leaks wasn't a health risk because he couldn't smell or see mould. That's an accepted surveyors definition in the UK. He went on to say any mould present was from a Christmas tree based on an article he saw in a daily newspaper.I think Fred Flintstone would understand more.RegardsJeff CharltonLondon