Re: Starting Creme Fraiche/Sour Cream & Question on Making Yogurt

[Guest guest]

I'm not certain, but I do believe the heating of the milk is mentioned because yogurt culture is not all that "strong". If you have older milk you might have a problem making yogurt as the other bacteria will overpower the yogurt culture.

Just my guess tho as I too make it straight from the source most times.

Belinda

[Guest guest]

Sara,

I'm not sure about the Crème Fraiche, but for your yogurt - I make mine totally raw - straight from the cow. By the time it gets in the house it's about 95 degrees or so. I just add my starter and let it set for about 12 hours. I've never had a problem with this, though my yogurt does come out rather thin and drinkable consistency. Perhaps the heating is what helps to make it thicker. Anyone else have ideas here?

Janet

Hi dairy folks,

I brought up this question on my board (DiscussingNT) and came up with a dead end. Maybe some one of you would know?

We were talking about starting creme fraiche. I was wondering if there's a "starter" method for creme fraiche, like one does with sourdough and yogurt. Instead of having to get cultures and "starting from square one" with each batch of creme fraiche?

I have my first ever batch of raw yogurt going in my Christmas dehydrator. I'm excited, hope it turns out! Sally Fallon's recipe for the raw milk variation specified to warming the milk to 110 degrees. Does someone know why? Could I skip that step if I wanted to?

Thanks so much! I really do think we have an awesome bunch of talented, knowledgeable people here. I am truly amazed at how all of us "fell into here" and became such a good, strong cohesive group. Call us the "Fellowship of the Ring" ala Lord of the Rings! :-D

Sara

[Guest guest]

Any homemade yogurt I've ever made has been runny. Even my kefir is

thicker. And if you are going to make it, I would not heat it--kind of

defeats the purpose of raw. I am pretty sure that 110 degrees is

pushing it pretty close to the place of destroying the enzymes. And

btw, I would recommend kefir over yogurt any day as the bacteria in

yogurt are transient--good, but transient. They kind of feed the other

good bacterias and then leave. The bacterias and yeast in kefir, I

have been told, set up shop because the slime in kefir makes a

hospitable environ in the small intestine, kind of coats the walls.

Much better. Sorry I don't know a thing about creme fraiche or I would

have answereed you the first time. I remember your post, but I didn't

feel qualified so I kept quiet. :-)

Janet Brunner wrote:

Sara,

I'm not sure about the

Crème Fraiche, but for your yogurt - I make mine totally raw - straight

from the cow. By the time it gets in the house it's about 95 degrees

or so. I just add my starter and let it set for about 12 hours. I've

never had a problem with this, though my yogurt does come out rather

thin and drinkable consistency. Perhaps the heating is what helps to

make it thicker. Anyone else have ideas here?

Janet

Hi dairy folks,

I brought up this question on my board

(DiscussingNT) and came up with a dead end. Maybe some one of you

would know?

We were talking about starting creme

fraiche. I was wondering if there's a "starter" method for creme

fraiche, like one does with sourdough and yogurt. Instead of having to

get cultures and "starting from square one" with each batch of creme

fraiche?

I have my first ever batch of

raw yogurt going in my Christmas dehydrator. I'm excited, hope it

turns out! Sally Fallon's recipe for the raw milk variation specified

to warming the milk to 110 degrees.

[Guest guest]

---

In RawDairy , " Janet Brunner " <jsbrunner@n...> wrote:

> Sara,

> I'm not sure about the Crème Fraiche, but for your yogurt - I make

mine totally raw - straight from the cow. By the time it gets in the

house it's about 95 degrees or so. I just add my starter and let it

set for about 12 hours.

<><><<<>Janet, Does the milk cool or remain at 95F for 12 hours?

Dennis

I've never had a problem with this, though my yogurt does come out

rather thin and drinkable consistency. Perhaps the heating is what

helps to make it thicker.

<><<><It also depends on the microorganisms present and you won't

know that unless you id them. Does the yogurt thicken when aged in

the refrig a few days? Dennis

Anyone else have ideas here?

> Janet

>

> Hi dairy folks,

> I brought up this question on my board (DiscussingNT) and

came up with a dead end. Maybe some one of you would know?

> We were talking about starting creme fraiche. I was

wondering if there's a " starter " method for creme fraiche, like one

does with sourdough and yogurt. Instead of having to get cultures

and " starting from square one " with each batch of creme fraiche?

<><<<<<><>What does that mean, starting from square one? Don't you

use a culture either purchased or saved from the last batch? Dennis

> I have my first ever batch of raw yogurt going in my

Christmas dehydrator. I'm excited, hope it turns out! Sally

Fallon's recipe for the raw milk variation specified to warming the

milk to 110 degrees. Does someone know why?

<><<><><><><><>Sally probably does,<<grin>>. Dennis

Could I skip that step if I wanted to?

>

<><><<><><>><>What is the culture used? It might prefer 110F. Dennis

Thanks so much! I really do think we have an awesome bunch of

talented, knowledgeable people here. I am truly amazed at how all of

us " fell into here " and became such a good, strong cohesive group.

Call us the " Fellowship of the Ring " ala Lord of the Rings! :-D

> Sara

[Guest guest]

---

Janet you could try using more starter, different starter, longer

set, or somewhat warmer temp. during incubation. that covers most of

the variables. dennis

In RawDairy , " Janet Brunner " <jsbrunner@n...> wrote:

> Dennis,

> The milk is kept in a warm chest at a constant temp of 100 degrees

for 12 hours.

> The yogurt does thicken somewhat - but not near as thick as my

kefir is.

> Janet

>

>

> ><<<>Janet, Does the milk cool or remain at 95F for 12 hours?

> Dennis

>

> <><<><It also depends on the microorganisms present and you won't

> know that unless you id them. Does the yogurt thicken when aged in

> the refrig a few days? Dennis

>

> The

[Guest guest]

---Janet, Sometimes I make yogurt without any culture added to the

raw milk and it gets as thick as mayonnaise. Like I've told them at

native_nutrition, once raw milk turns sour it then turns to yogurt in

a few more days in the refrig or in less time on the 70F counter. It

doesn't cut like mayo. Old timers called this " yogurt " clabber, I

think. It's such a crummy name I think it's ok to call it yogurt

even though it might not meet yogurt standards of identity. I'm not

selling it. I don't think yogurt made with raw milk meets the

standards of identity cause I suppose it has to be made with

pasteurized milk. Don't quote me though. Dennis

In RawDairy , " Janet Brunner " <jsbrunner@n...> wrote:

> Dennis, I've tried many different variables - been making yogurt

for nearly 20 years. I actually like the thinner, drinkable

consistency. And when left for only 12 hours it has such a mild

flavor that even young children drink it plain.

> Janet

>

> ---

> Janet you could try using more starter, different starter, longer

> set, or somewhat warmer temp. during incubation. that covers most

of

> the variables. dennis

[Guest guest]

> I'm not certain, but I do believe the heating of the milk is

mentioned

> because yogurt culture is not all that " strong " . If you have older

milk you might

> have a problem making yogurt as the other bacteria will overpower

the yogurt

> culture.

>

>

<><>>>>><<>Belinda, It probably comes down to how you define

yogurt/clabber/kefir/creme fraiche/etc. Specific starter organisms

are used for products for their flavor and other characteristics.

And as you mention the older milk will have more unknown organisms

present and of course the fresh raw milk has unknown microorganisms

present too. So this would be good reason to use fresh raw milk

rather than older raw milk for some cultured products. And in

industry they want to pasteurize to " standardize " the process, IMO.

Dennis

Just my guess tho as I too make it straight from the source most

times.

>

> Belinda

[Guest guest]

my yogurt is always thick and delicious. I make it from either fresh-out-of-the-cow milk, or a day or 2 old partially skimmed, depends on my mood. I order the culture from Dairy connection, and you can get it how you want it. I NEVER overheat the milk. never over 110, and in summer, add culture to fresh milk and set it on patio in the warmth.

www.MajestyFarm.comNorth Garden, Virginia

Re: Starting Creme Fraiche/Sour Cream & Question on Making Yogurt

I'm not certain, but I do believe the heating of the milk is mentioned because yogurt culture is not all that "strong". If you have older milk you might have a problem making yogurt as the other bacteria will overpower the yogurt culture.Just my guess tho as I too make it straight from the source most times.Belinda To learn more about Raw Dairy, visit our home pages at http://www.midvalleyvu.com

[Guest guest]

,

Why would the Nourishing Traditions book direct people to heat milk to 110 for yogurt then? It would have been nice if the reason had been included.

What, you didn't feel qualified about creme fraiche? You are qualified for darn near and everything! You know a waaaay lot more than I do! Which reminds me, if you ever need a job recommendation for work involving greeting, let me know! You are an excellent welcomer to the newcomers here, I really really appreciate it! (I could welcome them, but then people on the list would really get sick of me and wonder if I actually have a life away from the keyboard! LOL!)

Sara

Minnesota

Re: Starting Creme Fraiche/Sour Cream & Question on Making Yogurt

Any homemade yogurt I've ever made has been runny. Even my kefir is thicker. And if you are going to make it, I would not heat it--kind of defeats the purpose of raw. I am pretty sure that 110 degrees is pushing it pretty close to the place of destroying the enzymes. And btw, I would recommend kefir over yogurt any day as the bacteria in yogurt are transient--good, but transient. They kind of feed the other good bacterias and then leave. The bacterias and yeast in kefir, I have been told, set up shop because the slime in kefir makes a hospitable environ in the small intestine, kind of coats the walls. Much better. Sorry I don't know a thing about creme fraiche or I would have answereed you the first time. I remember your post, but I didn't feel qualified so I kept quiet. :-)Janet Brunner wrote:

Sara,

I'm not sure about the Crème Fraiche, but for your yogurt - I make mine totally raw - straight from the cow. By the time it gets in the house it's about 95 degrees or so. I just add my starter and let it set for about 12 hours. I've never had a problem with this, though my yogurt does come out rather thin and drinkable consistency. Perhaps the heating is what helps to make it thicker. Anyone else have ideas here?

Janet

Hi dairy folks,

I brought up this question on my board (DiscussingNT) and came up with a dead end. Maybe some one of you would know?

We were talking about starting creme fraiche. I was wondering if there's a "starter" method for creme fraiche, like one does with sourdough and yogurt. Instead of having to get cultures and "starting from square one" with each batch of creme fraiche?

I have my first ever batch of raw yogurt going in my Christmas dehydrator. I'm excited, hope it turns out! Sally Fallon's recipe for the raw milk variation specified to warming the milk to 110 degrees. To learn more about Raw Dairy, visit our home pages at http://www.midvalleyvu.com

[Guest guest]

Hey Sara,

You know I really don't know the answer to your first question. I like

Sally and I am so grateful for her work, but some things in her book

are confusing. Like sometimes she calls for white, processed flour in

her recipes, other things too that I can't remember offhand. And some

have questioned this on the WAPF chapter leader chat group. Never have

heard a response. I think 110 degrees is getting close to pushing it,

but it still might be okay. I've heard a lot of different temperature

guidelines for altering enzymes and proteins, some as high as 145

degrees. I like to play it safe, though. Just me. The raw-er the

better.

P.S. I worry about too many greetings myself. HA! We women tend to

worry ourselves about what others are thinking so much--hate to admit

it though.

Sara wrote:

,

Why would the Nourishing Traditions book

direct people to heat milk to 110 for yogurt then? It would have been

nice if the reason had been included.

What, you didn't feel qualified about

creme fraiche? You are qualified for darn near and everything! You

know a waaaay lot more than I do! Which reminds me, if you ever need a

job recommendation for work involving greeting, let me know! You are

an excellent welcomer to the newcomers here, I really really appreciate

it! (I could welcome them, but then people on the list would really

get sick of me and wonder if I actually have a life away from the

keyboard! LOL!)

Sara

Minnesota

[Guest guest]

OH! Also, Sara, the reason I don't feel qualified to comment about

creme fraiche is that I simply haven't tried it yet. I have no

experience with it. I would love to try it, but 2 small ones, and lots

of other things to do, I just haven't yet. Just one of those things.

[Guest guest]

Hello Sara,

Since you started this thread about yogurt, I can't resist to open

my big mouth. National pride, you see:-) A few months ago I posted

about this subject in a few groups. So I'll copy part of my

writings. I hope it will answer some of the questions I see.

> Sally Fallon's recipe for the raw milk variation specified to

warming the milk to 110 degrees. Does someone know why?

The reason for this is that Lactobacillus Bulgaricus and

Streptococcus Thermophilus (the bacteria responsible for the

fermentation of milk into yogurt) grow best in the temperature

interval of 104-113F. If the temperature is too low during

incubation other bacteria present in the milk can overtake and this

can result in defects of the final product. If you choose the higher

end,than Streptococcus Thermophilus are predominant and the result

is a sourer yogurt. Also there will be some liquid on the top. This

is called syneresis. If you use the lower temperature than the

Lactobacillus Bulgaricus are abundant and the result is more

sweeter, milder yogurt without liquid on top. Lactobacillus

Bulgaricus and Streptococcus Thermophilus do not like

to be disturb during fermentation,i.e. moving/shaking the jars with

yogurt during incubation. Failing to do this will also result in

syneresis (liquid on top of yogurt).

In some of the replies to Sara's post there was a discussion about

the consistency of yogurt. You are accustom to the commercial cow

milk yogurt sold in the US and Western Europe. The manufacturers

here are using cow(and a few goat) milk from animals fed

standardized diet. Then they add stabilizers, starches,gums and gels

to improve the viscosity and the texture. Often they do concentrate

the milk by evaporation prior to fermentation or by the addition of

dried powdered milk.

The milk used affects the consistency of yogurt. The higher the

fat level the creamier and smother the yogurt will feel in the

mouth. The higher the dry matter (milk solids) the firmer the yogurt

will be. Commercial manufacturers control the dry matter to ensure

consistency of production. The above factors depend on the breed of

the animal (i.e. in the case of cows they are higher for Jerseys

than Holsteins), the diet (is it a standardized commercial feed or a

grass which changes with the seasons) and the lactation of the

animal (i.e. is it in the beginning, max production or just before

the animal is about to go dry).

The traditional Bulgarian yogurt used to be made from water buffalo

and sheep milks. Both are very rich and buttery (high milkfat and

dry matter). However the consistency of the yogurt will differ

during the year. In spring it will be runnier. In late summer or

autumn, just before the animals go dry, the yogurt will be very

thick and firm. You could practically slice it with a knife. It

melts in your mouth and has a strong tangy flavor. In the old days

yogurt was made in earthenware pottery. Some of the whey was leaking

from the clay pot naturally and the resulting yogurt was even

thicker. At the present day there are only 2 or 3 places there that

still sell buffalo/sheep yogurt in pottery. The yogurt sold in

grocery stores there is made from homogenized cow milk with 2%

milkfat and comes mostly from Holsteins. So with two words: Yogurt

made from cow/goat milk will never have the consistency of one made

from buffalo/sheep milk. It will always be a lot more runnier. And

raw milk yogurt will always be runnier compared to the one made with

pasteurized because of the difference in the amount of dry matter.

If you take milk from Jerseys and make yogurt with heating to 180

degrees you will have very firm yogurt comparable to the " Brown

Cow " (cream on top) brand. However if you take the same milk but do

not heat/pasteurise it will be runnier.

Another problem you can encounter when making yogurt is slime. This

means that either your culture is contaminated, your jars, or the

milk itself. Your milk may be perfect for drinking but it may not

produce superior yogurt. As soon as the animal is milked, bacteria

will start growing. This is normal and you can't avoid it.

Lactobacillus Bulgaricus and Streptococcus Thermophilus are very

sensitive to the environment outside the Balkans and thus the

bacteria presented in milk may change the quality of yogurt.

Another question I get asked is if Bulgarians heat the milk to make

yogurt. At the present time heating is the standard method

everywhere in the region(Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey). The practice of

heating the milk was first started by the Turks maybe around 150-200

years ago and gradually spread through the old Ottoman Empire. The

famous Bulgarians mentioned by Metchnikoff in his studies were from

the Rodopi mountain which lies on the border with Greece. It is a

very isolated area because life has always been harsh there.

Metchnikoff attributed the longevity and health of this group of

Bulgarians on the high yogurt consumption. I think that the reasons

are more complex. After all yogurt has been a staple of the diet on

the Balkans for many centuries. But the Rodopi mountain region is

very rich with a variety of herbs. I suspect that some of their

healing properties were passed in the milk the animals produced.

Because of its isolation the region is still pristine even today –

crystal air, clean streams, green pastures, centuries old forests.

All these factors inevitably would have produced superior yogurt.

Marieta

[Guest guest]

Sara,

I have read that creme fraiche originally was made through letting

the cream to culture itself. However the resulting taste of the

final product is unpredictable and it would depend on the particular

strain of " wild " bacteria that is responsible for the souring of the

cream. The practice to inoculate the cream with a starter from the

previous batch came later.

Marieta

[Guest guest]

Denis,

Clabber is not yogurt.

Yogurt is a result of the bacterial fermentation of milk and the

bacteria responsible for this are Lactobacillus Bulgaricus and

Streptococcus Thermophilus. They give yogurt the distinctive taste.

Lactobacillus Bulgaricus is naturally presented only on the Balkan

peninsula(today's Bulgaria,Greece, Turkey) and will mutate out of

the area very fast.

Clabber is naturally soured, thickened milk before it is separated

into curds and whey. It has been very popular in the South. The

bacteria responsible for turning milk into clabber are also lactic,

but not Lactobacillus Bulgaricus and Streptococcus Thermophilus and

this is why clabber tastes different from yogurt.

Marieta

> ---Janet, Sometimes I make yogurt without any culture added to the

> raw milk and it gets as thick as mayonnaise. Like I've told them

at

> native_nutrition, once raw milk turns sour it then turns to yogurt

in

> a few more days in the refrig or in less time on the 70F counter.

It

> doesn't cut like mayo. Old timers called this " yogurt " clabber,

I

> think. It's such a crummy name I think it's ok to call it yogurt

> even though it might not meet yogurt standards of identity. I'm

not

> selling it. I don't think yogurt made with raw milk meets the

> standards of identity cause I suppose it has to be made with

> pasteurized milk. Don't quote me though. Dennis

>

>

> . dennis

[Guest guest]

Marieta, wow! You answered a lot of questions. I wonder if Sara

would post this in the files section, for future reference?

Thanks,

-Blair

> Hello Sara,

>

> Since you started this thread about yogurt, I can't resist to open

> my big mouth. National pride, you see:-) A few months ago I posted

> about this subject in a few groups. So I'll copy part of my

> writings. I hope it will answer some of the questions I see.

[Guest guest]

Marieta, you are awesome...and definitely the yogurt queen! Being

from Bulgaria, you'd certainly know about yogurt if anyone would!

Barbara

[Guest guest]

> Denis,

>

> Clabber is not yogurt.

> Yogurt is a result of the bacterial fermentation of milk and the

> bacteria responsible for this are Lactobacillus Bulgaricus and

> Streptococcus Thermophilus. They give yogurt the distinctive taste.

>

<>><>><<<<><>FYI:when raw milk is used you will have many other

microorganisms present as well as L. bulgaricus and S. thermophilus.

Dennis

Lactobacillus Bulgaricus is naturally presented only on the Balkan

> peninsula(today's Bulgaria,Greece, Turkey) and will mutate out of

> the area very fast.

>

> Clabber is naturally soured, thickened milk before it is separated

> into curds and whey. It has been very popular in the South. The

> bacteria responsible for turning milk into clabber are also lactic,

<><<<>The microorganisms present (in raw milk) would certainly vary

from farm to farm. This a good reason for heat treatment prior to

inoculation. To minimize effects of " wild " microorganisms use fresh

milk and inoculate with adequate amount of good starter. Dennis

> but not Lactobacillus Bulgaricus and Streptococcus Thermophilus and

> this is why clabber tastes different from yogurt.

>

> Marieta

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Denis,

>

> Clabber is not yogurt.

> Yogurt is a result of the bacterial fermentation of milk and the

> bacteria responsible for this are Lactobacillus Bulgaricus and

> Streptococcus Thermophilus. >

> Marieta

>

>

> Marieta, Are they added in a specific ratio? Dennis

[Guest guest]

Dennis,

L. Bulgaricus is naturally presented only on the Balkan peninsula

(today's Bulgaria,Greece, Turkey) and will mutate out of the area

very fast.

Marieta

[Guest guest]

Denis,

I don't know. I do remember reading that if Bifidus are added they

must be in specific ratio.

Marieta

> > Marieta, Are they added in a specific ratio? Dennis

[Guest guest]

Sara,

Don't shake the jars. After your yogurt is ready carefully move them

(the jars) to the refrigerator.

Marieta

[Guest guest]

Sara,

You should be able to use it as a starter if the bacteria are still

alive and their number is large enough. I remember reading on the

native nutrition group that some people had problems using grocery

store's sour cream for starter. Be sure that the brand is not

pasteurized after culturing and look for the sale-by date. I have

read that there are some products that are pasteurized after

culturing. Probably it will be best if you make a small cup as first

experiment and see if it will work and if you like the results.

Marieta

> Thank you! It's sorta like which came first...the egg or the

chicken? ;-) I would think based on this info that creme fraiche

*could* be made from starters, like yogurt and sourdough are. If I

had some creme fraiche, I could reserve some to make a new batch

with new cream. No?

[Guest guest]

> Dennis,

> L. Bulgaricus is naturally presented only on the Balkan peninsula

> (today's Bulgaria,Greece, Turkey) and will mutate out of the area

> very fast.

>

> Marieta

Marieta I don't understand. It is used to make cheese in America and

why would it mutate anyway just by leaving the Balkan peninsula? I

sure enjoy your great spelling. Dennis

[Guest guest]

Dennis,

At the present moment all cultures being used in dairy products come

from laboratories. Therefore you can make any type of product

anywhere in the world. L.Bulgaricus grows only on the Balkans and

mutates everywhere because of the specific local microclimate. I am

not a microbiologist and can't explain why mutations occur when a

bacteria, yeast or mold is out of its natural habitat. It is like

the sourdough bread. You may have a San Francisco starter but if you

move out of Frisco your starter will change, the yeast will mutate

and your bread will not taste as SF sourdough anymore.

Or like with the French Roquefort. You can purchase Penicillium

Roqueforti here in the US and make a cheese. If you follow the

manufacturing process of the French cheese makers you will

make " roquefort " . But 100 years ago you could not produce it in

America. However the cheese that you can produce at the present

moment here, using P.Roqueforti and the exact conditions the French

use, can't be label as " Roquefort " because of the designation AOC.

Today's technology gives you the means for producing something that

could be produced only in particular area before. In the case of

Roquefort, it used to be made by leaving bread in the limestone

caves in Southern France. The soil and the walls of the caves are

rich with naturally occurring Penicillium Roqueforti. After the

bread developed mold it was then dried and crumbled and then added

to the ewe's milk. The cheese was aged in the same limestone caves.

At the present day nobody uses bread that was aged in a limestone

cave to produce P.Roqueforti. This is done in labs. But the cheese

is still aged in the caves, mostly because of tradition.

L.Bulgaricus are presented everywhere on the Balkans - soil, air,

even on the bark of some trees in the Rodopi mountain region. During

past centuries sheppards there used to take a piece of bark and stir

it in the fresh milk. On the next day the milk was turned into

yogurt.

In the last few years there has been a fight between Bulgaria,

Greece, Turkey and the European Union for the use of the designation

AOC (Appellation d'Origine Controlee). This is the same designation

of origin label that is being used for cheeses such as Roquefort,

Pecorino Romano, Parmigiano Reggiano, etc. Basically it guarantees

that a product of quality has been produced in a specific

geographical area and under established production methods. The

Greeks want the AOC for feta, the Bulgarians - AOC for yogurt, and

meanwhile all 3 are in disputes for the designation with each other

too. It boils down to the fact that if any one country is granted

AOC, the other 2 (and the rest of the world) can't call their feta

or yogurt with the same name anymore. France of course opposes

this, because this would jeopardize their own feta production. And

Dannon is protesting like crazy about the yogurt.

Marieta

> Marieta I don't understand. It is used to make cheese in America

and

> why would it mutate anyway just by leaving the Balkan peninsula? I

> sure enjoy your great spelling. Dennis

[Guest guest]

Thanks for all the great information on this subject. Here's my question:

mention is made of Sally Fallon suggesting that the milk be heated to 110.

In the yougurt recipe in my edition (second edition) of Nourishing

Traditions says to heat the milk to 180 degrees. Perhaps there's a section

in her book that I've missed on this subject; or perhaps there's a typo in

my edition?

Diane