Guest guest Posted December 8, 2003 Report Share Posted December 8, 2003 I've never been a very skillful liar, and deceit is a 'painful web' indeed. Let's just streak naked (with a milk mustache) across the internet, and each post $25 bail/legal for anyone on this list that needs it. A court that wants to convict us will, because the 'experts' can prove that there have never been any double-blind, long-term, placebo-controlled, clinical studies conducted about the benefits of raw milk. BECAUSE NO ONE WHO WANTS ONE CAN AFFFORD TO FUND ONE!!! So far the only evidence I've read is anecdotal; we have a long history of anecdotes, but that won't hold up in court. (I haven't read Dr. Ron's book yet, but it's on my Christmas wish list.) I have 168 Raw Dairy members, a dentist(Price) and a cookbook author (Fallon), saying it's good for you. My 'empirical evidence' is " I know it when I see it " . Oh, yeah - That should hold up in court.... Our only hope is to gain momemtum, reach that critical mass that evokes social change. If we strip-search new members, how likely is it that our membership will grow in leaps and bounds? The thing that's good about this board is the honest, helpful, down-to-earth people with a vision of robust health for their families and their America. I say, let the sneaks come in, and learn. If you're on this list, you're illegal, or close to it, and you're already committed. (Just " like an American - the old kind " . - It's becoming painfully obvious to me that this country has already been hijacked, and it ain't by foreign terrorists...) Unless we can get all comers to sign a 'no entrapment' form, we're sitting ducks. Golly Gee, Grandma went to jail for drinking milk! NOw, as Laurel says, I'll duck and run for cover. :-) -Blair Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 Around here (Ohio) the attitude has become " Come and get me, copers.... " The one case where they tried to cause legal trouble for an Amish farmer providing high-quality Raw Milk was dropped. Rumor was that an attorney on the county dairy board made it go away. Since then, many in our Amish/Mennonite community have just decided to do it anyway. Civil disobedience can be an easier way then trying to change a law and draw attention to yourself. I still believe the time will come for us to do exactly this, but until we have our ducks in a row, best to be discreet. I doubt that " secrecy " is really necessary unless you know your farmers are under surveillance. --Terry Secrecy / No Fear > I've never been a very skillful liar, and deceit is a 'painful web' > indeed. Let's just streak naked (with a milk mustache) across the > internet, and each post $25 bail/legal for anyone on this list that > needs it. > > A court that wants to convict us will, because the 'experts' can > prove that there have never been any double-blind, long-term, > placebo-controlled, clinical studies conducted about the benefits of > raw milk. BECAUSE NO ONE WHO WANTS ONE CAN AFFFORD TO FUND ONE!!! > > So far the only evidence I've read is anecdotal; we have a long > history of anecdotes, but that won't hold up in court. (I haven't > read Dr. Ron's book yet, but it's on my Christmas wish list.) I > have 168 Raw Dairy members, a dentist(Price) and a cookbook author > (Fallon), saying it's good for you. > > My 'empirical evidence' is " I know it when I see it " . Oh, yeah - > That should hold up in court.... > > Our only hope is to gain momemtum, reach that critical mass that > evokes social change. If we strip-search new members, how likely is > it that our membership will grow in leaps and bounds? The thing > that's good about this board is the honest, helpful, down-to-earth > people with a vision of robust health for their families and their > America. I say, let the sneaks come in, and learn. > > If you're on this list, you're illegal, or close to it, and you're > already committed. (Just " like an American - the old kind " . - It's > becoming painfully obvious to me that this country has already been > hijacked, and it ain't by foreign terrorists...) > > Unless we can get all comers to sign a 'no entrapment' form, we're > sitting ducks. Golly Gee, Grandma went to jail for drinking milk! > > NOw, as Laurel says, I'll duck and run for cover. :-) > > -Blair > > > > To learn more about Raw Dairy, visit our home pages at http://www.midvalleyvu.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 Hi All. I'm a chapter in Ohio. We just had a meeting here with some of our farmers. One of them brought an article from a farming magazine where the Navy Seals had ordered a full tanker of Raw Milk (from Mark McAfee in CA) for their guys in training for Iraq. Saw it myself in full color. So somebody knows how good Raw Milk is, and at least federally, are unlikely to go any further than they already have to ban it. I'd say the Navy Seals are pretty safe company to be in. That might be very interesting evidence in court. As to " secrecy " , as I said, being discreet with anything printed or written is key. Meaning no flyers or notes or checks with the wording " Raw Milk " associated with any particular farm. As far as I know, it's not against the law anywhere to acquire raw milk, only to charge money for it. Wouldn't it be great if this goes the way of Prohibition and alcohol? With enough people in key places, it's bound to happen. Subterfuge is good if you know how to play..... --Terry RE: Secrecy / No Fear > Blair wrote: > > Our only hope is to gain momemtum, reach that critical mass that > > evokes social change. > > YEEEEHAW! That's what I'm thinking. No bowing, no scraping, no hiding, > but stop putting lots of our energy into changing the laws and getting > permission. Create some kind of structure like the LLC with share > members and stand tall. Wait until there are so many people doing this > that the change comes, er 'naturally'. > > Laurel > > > > To learn more about Raw Dairy, visit our home pages at http://www.midvalleyvu.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 Oh, now THIS is good news! Ooooh, let this one get out!!! -Blair > > > Our only hope is to gain momemtum, reach that critical mass that > > > evokes social change. > > > > YEEEEHAW! That's what I'm thinking. No bowing, no scraping, no hiding, > > but stop putting lots of our energy into changing the laws and getting > > permission. Create some kind of structure like the LLC with share > > members and stand tall. Wait until there are so many people doing this > > that the change comes, er 'naturally'. > > > > Laurel > > > > > > > > To learn more about Raw Dairy, visit our home pages at > http://www.midvalleyvu.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Ooooh, the Feds "aided and abetted" this shipment of raw milk out to Iraq?! The right hand does not know what the left hand does, eh? Sara Re: Secrecy / No Fear Oh, now THIS is good news! Ooooh, let this one get out!!!-Blair> Hi All. I'm a chapter in Ohio. We just had a meeting here with some of> our farmers. One of them brought an article from a farming magazine where> the Navy Seals had ordered a full tanker of Raw Milk (from Mark McAfee in> CA) for their guys in training for Iraq. Saw it myself in full color. So> somebody knows how good Raw Milk is, and at least federally, are unlikely to> go any further than they already have to ban it. I'd say the Navy Seals are> pretty safe company to be in. That might be very interesting evidence in> court.> > As to "secrecy", as I said, being discreet with anything printed or written> is key. Meaning no flyers or notes or checks with the wording "Raw Milk"> associated with any particular farm. As far as I know, it's not against the> law anywhere to acquire raw milk, only to charge money for it.> > Wouldn't it be great if this goes the way of Prohibition and alcohol? With> enough people in key places, it's bound to happen. Subterfuge is good if> you know how to play.....> --Terry> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2003 Report Share Posted December 12, 2003 If that were all there was to it, I wouldn't mind anyone knowing all my information. Unfortunately it isn't. Those of us with children DO need to be more careful. Since raw milk is illegal those of us that give it to our children could get in trouble and possibly have the state come in to investigate to see if we are fit parents. They view giving children raw milk to children as endangerment. It is awful that trying to better our children's health through better nutrition could put parents at risk of losing their children. I don't want to scare anyone, but this is a possibility. -----Original Message-----From: Blair McMorran Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 12:39 AMTo: RawDairy Subject: Secrecy / No FearI've never been a very skillful liar, and deceit is a 'painful web' indeed. Let's just streak naked (with a milk mustache) across the internet, and each post $25 bail/legal for anyone on this list that needs it. A court that wants to convict us will, because the 'experts' can prove that there have never been any double-blind, long-term, placebo-controlled, clinical studies conducted about the benefits of raw milk. BECAUSE NO ONE WHO WANTS ONE CAN AFFFORD TO FUND ONE!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2003 Report Share Posted December 12, 2003 -- I want to make some very important distinctions here... No regulatory agency has the right to tell you how to raise your children, even if you're a lunatic. We have enough dysfunctional families out there to prove that hands down.... No one is going to come into your home and arrest you for feeding Raw Dairy to your children, unless you also happen to be beating them senseless. There are plenty of adults in the legal system, raised on farms, who remember growing up on the stuff. Geez, if we all had to believe the exact same Ideals to be citizens, no one would qualify. If you put yourself in "harm's way" by hanging out a sign in your front yard, the issue would not be about your children. No where in any of the anecdotes and literature has anyone's children been taken away solely for feeding them Raw Milk. Someone must produce solid EVIDENCE, like your child is deathly ill, before anyone is going to press this to its ultimate legal conclusion. My sister sees neurologically damaged children from wealthy families who are ruined from Vegan Diets, and no one is pressing charges. It becomes another log on the legal fire, if you should find yourself in a custody battle, which is the problem. They use everything they can find as ammunition and see what sticks. That's their job. Those in a position to do so can cause legal mayhem just to harass. If you should find yourself on the "wrong side" of public opinion in anything about your kids, you could theoretically be liable. You still have to be hauled into court for suspected Endangerment of somebody first. Even when parents choose alternative health therapies for their children with cancer, this can technically become an issue. Notice you have to sign a legal release if you leave the hospital without somebody's official approval. If it's you, nobody can say a word; if it's someone you are responsible for, you are liable and subject to regulatory scrutiny. As stated before here on this List, the issue is not about scientific facts battling it out, but an issue of Civil Rights; your legal right to choose how you will live. Who is being actually endangered here.....? Nobody's Body, but maybe somebody's Ego. --Terry PS: If it were up to me, I'd press charges against the drug companies for giving out live nose germs to an unsuspecting public, and the Media for inciting a flu "Epidemic" that doesn't even exist. I remember recent flu seasons with the ERs filled to overcapacity, and there was absolutely no press coverage. Talk about a lot of hooey.... RE: Secrecy / No Fear If that were all there was to it, I wouldn't mind anyone knowing all my information. Unfortunately it isn't. Those of us with children DO need to be more careful. Since raw milk is illegal those of us that give it to our children could get in trouble and possibly have the state come in to investigate to see if we are fit parents. They view giving children raw milk to children as endangerment. It is awful that trying to better our children's health through better nutrition could put parents at risk of losing their children. I don't want to scare anyone, but this is a possibility. -----Original Message-----From: Blair McMorran Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 12:39 AMTo: RawDairy Subject: Secrecy / No FearI've never been a very skillful liar, and deceit is a 'painful web' indeed. Let's just streak naked (with a milk mustache) across the internet, and each post $25 bail/legal for anyone on this list that needs it. A court that wants to convict us will, because the 'experts' can prove that there have never been any double-blind, long-term, placebo-controlled, clinical studies conducted about the benefits of raw milk. BECAUSE NO ONE WHO WANTS ONE CAN AFFFORD TO FUND ONE!!!To learn more about Raw Dairy, visit our home pages at http://www.midvalleyvu.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2003 Report Share Posted December 12, 2003 hey , I'm of the same mind! I don't " blab " to everyone I meet that my family drinks raw milk. Subconsiously I'm afraid someone will just haul me off to jail some day for " aiding and abetting " my children to drinking raw milk. My son brings milk to school to drink every day, in place of the pasteurized hormone-ized milk the school provides. No, I don't get a price break on the hot lunches this way. I tell him it's organic milk and that's what he tells people. I know if I tell him it's raw milk, the food program director/cook and principal will find out, and probably get after me for child endangerment! That because if they call the state, the government will agree that raw milk is dangerous because they just don't know any better! This point was brought home to me when about 3 months after we embarked on our raw milk consuming adventure, my DH got really sick to his stomach for a few days. He went to the doctor and normally he AVOIDS the doctor. So he was pretty sick there. Of course he was given the third degree as to what he had eaten in the last few days, what kind of germs had he been exposed to, etc. etc. (He demanded antibiotics, not caring that I or the doctor told him it most likely was viral not bacterial, and felt much better after a couple days- probably a placebo effect, eh?) He didn't say that he drank/drinks raw milk. The state called DH a few days later, not to ask if he was feeling better. The express purpose was to find out what he had eaten in the past few days and asked espressly if he had drunk any raw milk. DH lied and said 'no.' Imagine if he had said, " Yes. " Right away they would have been all over us, all over our milk supplier and hauled our two kids off to emergency foster care, probably so! All our neighbors would have been wondering what the fuss was all about with police cars lining our driveway and the street, sirens and lights going off! Ok, I'm getting carried away here by my imagination, but that was a scary experience, getting a call from the State. I'm with you, ! Alert Sara Minnesota > If that were all there was to it, I wouldn't mind anyone knowing all my > information. Unfortunately it isn't. Those of us with children DO need to be > more careful. Since raw milk is illegal those of us that give it to our > children could get in trouble and possibly have the state come in to > investigate to see if we are fit parents. They view giving children raw milk > to children as endangerment. It is awful that trying to better our > children's health through better nutrition could put parents at risk of > losing their children. I don't want to scare anyone, but this is a > possibility. > > Secrecy / No Fear > > > I've never been a very skillful liar, and deceit is a 'painful web' > indeed. Let's just streak naked (with a milk mustache) across the > internet, and each post $25 bail/legal for anyone on this list that > needs it. > > A court that wants to convict us will, because the 'experts' can > prove that there have never been any double-blind, long-term, > placebo-controlled, clinical studies conducted about the benefits of > raw milk. BECAUSE NO ONE WHO WANTS ONE CAN AFFFORD TO FUND ONE!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2003 Report Share Posted December 12, 2003 Sara-- that is scary, but I'm a bit confused: why did the state call him? How could they suspect raw milk if he never mentioned it? Or is it just because of where you're located (near a raw milk dairy) and the fact that he presented with food poisioning symptoms, and they were calling everyone like that? Tom > > If that were all there was to it, I wouldn't mind anyone knowing > all my > > information. Unfortunately it isn't. Those of us with children DO > need to be > > more careful. Since raw milk is illegal those of us that give it to > our > > children could get in trouble and possibly have the state come in to > > investigate to see if we are fit parents. They view giving children > raw milk > > to children as endangerment. It is awful that trying to better our > > children's health through better nutrition could put parents at > risk of > > losing their children. I don't want to scare anyone, but this is a > > possibility. > > > > Secrecy / No Fear > > > > > > I've never been a very skillful liar, and deceit is a 'painful > web' > > indeed. Let's just streak naked (with a milk mustache) across the > > internet, and each post $25 bail/legal for anyone on this list > that > > needs it. > > > > A court that wants to convict us will, because the 'experts' can > > prove that there have never been any double-blind, long-term, > > placebo-controlled, clinical studies conducted about the benefits > of > > raw milk. BECAUSE NO ONE WHO WANTS ONE CAN AFFFORD TO FUND ONE!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2003 Report Share Posted December 12, 2003 Sara-- I figure DH stands for the Dept. of Health. The MN farmers are under scrutiny for the legality of selling Raw Milk shares too. It's the county's job to follow up on any suspected food pathogen anyway. If I've got the right guy, your State has a very good guy looking after your Public Health who made his career from tracking down a huge outbreak in pasteurized dairy that killed people in a number of states. As a teacher I was required to report any suspicion of abuse too. Of the Child Services Depts that have a bad case of Power, most are shot down in court, even the ones for medical issues. Unfortunately you have to suffer their regulatory abuse until your court date. You have to go pretty far to actually have your children taken away, unless it's a divorce, and then anyone can be influenced. Ours will never get over their latest scandal -- 4 children locked in a closet, beaten and starved while CSB ignored numerous complaints over a period of years. It came out finally as the oldest escaped from the house and went to the police dept. looking like a skeleton. Our Young's Dairy decided to give up their Raw Dairy License after they were implicated in a Salmonella outbreak. It was tracked back to some frozen processed meat used in their restaurant, but Raw Milk was blamed in the press anyway. I understand that you don't want any trouble, but one thing you can do right now is to stop calling it Raw. This term is so full of trouble, that it needs to be changed. I'm hoping your source is Grassfed, and that or Organic is an excellent term to use. If anyone questions you, say you boil it before you drink it anyway. You wanted to make some yogurt or your own cheese. Just so you know, Organic milk that has been ultra-pasteurized has almost no live bacteria and that makes the fungi even more virulent if it is not handled correctly. It also is just about impossible to culture, and may not even whip. Grass farmers have very picky ideas about how to raise healthy happy cows. These are the guys you really want to search out. They have an organization with the members listed. If they have beef to sell, they probably have milk too if you go out and introduce yourself. If you mention WAPF, they know who we are. --Terry Secrecy / No Fear > > > > > > > > > I've never been a very skillful liar, and deceit is a 'painful > > web' > > > indeed. Let's just streak naked (with a milk mustache) across the > > > internet, and each post $25 bail/legal for anyone on this list > > that > > > needs it. > > > > > > A court that wants to convict us will, because the 'experts' can > > > prove that there have never been any double-blind, long-term, > > > placebo-controlled, clinical studies conducted about the benefits > > of > > > raw milk. BECAUSE NO ONE WHO WANTS ONE CAN AFFFORD TO FUND ONE!!! > > > > To learn more about Raw Dairy, visit our home pages at http://www.midvalleyvu.com > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 Nope, My suspicion is this: the State or Dept of Health has a list of ready made questions. The doctor has to call in any food poisoning suspects (and their phone numbers! Talk about patient-dr confidentiality, eh?). The State goes through the list quizzing the sick person "Did you eat at a fast food restaurant? What did you have? Did you eat at a buffet place? What did you have? Did you eat raw ground beef? What store did you buy the ground beef from? Did you drink any raw milk? Blah blah....." How did these recalls of contaminated ground beef happen? They found out from people's complaints what and where they ate one common denominator. There has been outbreaks of food poisonings from bad hamburgers at Jack in the Box, even from lettuce at some local buffet restaurant. Hope this helps! Sara Secrecy / No Fear> > > > > > I've never been a very skillful liar, and deceit is a 'painful > web'> > indeed. Let's just streak naked (with a milk mustache) across the> > internet, and each post $25 bail/legal for anyone on this list > that> > needs it.> > > > A court that wants to convict us will, because the 'experts' can> > prove that there have never been any double-blind, long-term,> > placebo-controlled, clinical studies conducted about the benefits > of> > raw milk. BECAUSE NO ONE WHO WANTS ONE CAN AFFFORD TO FUND ONE!!!To learn more about Raw Dairy, visit our home pages at http://www.midvalleyvu.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 Terry, DH is an online term for "husband." Sorry for the confusion. My husband said the State called him, he doesn't remember what Dept it was but I'm assuming it was the Health dept. I agree too that the term "raw milk" doesn't really convey confidence. I much prefer "unprocessed milk" or "real milk." Sounds more honest, more to the real point and not so "In your face." I found my milk supply through WAPF. Organic pasture-fed Belted Dutch cows. The Hartmanns also sell butter, cream, cheese, eggs, beef, pork and related products, including lard and whey. Never can get over how yellow the butter is! Terrific! I know I am so, so lucky! Do you remember more specifics about that huge outbreak of poisoning from pasteurized milk that you mentioned? Thanks, Sara in Freezing Minnesota Secrecy / No Fear> > >> > >> > > I've never been a very skillful liar, and deceit is a 'painful> > web'> > > indeed. Let's just streak naked (with a milk mustache) across the> > > internet, and each post $25 bail/legal for anyone on this list> > that> > > needs it.> > >> > > A court that wants to convict us will, because the 'experts' can> > > prove that there have never been any double-blind, long-term,> > > placebo-controlled, clinical studies conducted about the benefits> > of> > > raw milk. BECAUSE NO ONE WHO WANTS ONE CAN AFFFORD TO FUND ONE!!!>>>> To learn more about Raw Dairy, visit our home pages athttp://www.midvalleyvu.com> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.