Guest guest Posted March 1, 2002 Report Share Posted March 1, 2002 I have a question about the ph of hand made soap. There are claims out there that handmade soap made with Goat Milk produce a soap with a ph closer to the skins (5.5). Here is a quotes from web pages. " By making our soap with goat's milk, we lower it's PH, which helps to maintain the natural PH mantel of your skin. We suggest that you compare the ingredients on the label of commercial " soaps " to the ingredients in ours. Many labels don't even use the word " soap, " becausethey are mostly detergents " made from petroleum products. " " Although the milk has been used for centuries as a cleanser and skin conditioner, it is presently well accepted by scientists that goat milk soap has a pH level that is closest to the skins own pH level. It has proven to be a gentle soap, tender to sensitive dry skin. It consistently leaves the skin feeling smooth, moisturized and rejuvenated. Many of our customers have reported that they have had relief from Psoriasis and Eczema " There are many more claims on this out there.... I guess my idea of hand made soap is that it is alkali. The ph would be between 8 and 10. I'd like to know how the goats milk lowers the ph of handmade soap to " close to the ph of skin " , which in my understanding is around 5.5. Thanks!! Sutton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2002 Report Share Posted March 1, 2002 patent nonsense, ...about the only way to bring handmade soap down to a pH of 5.5 would be to use hydrochloric acid or other such strong acids. Weaker acids, like the fatty acids found in oils, milk and that sort of thing, just won't do it. Neither will the proteins, sugars or anything else in milk of any kind. Think about it...if goatsmilk was capable of turning a fairly alkaline product (pH 10) into something acidic, it would be SO corrosive you'd not be able to drink it! Baby goats would be screaming in agony.... " nooo nannygoat, noooooo " (okay, maybe they'd adapt...) send them an email - ask for the names of the scientists, or for a copy of the studies they're using to back up these miraculous claims of pH reduction! *grin* Ask them their pH testing method and proof of the claim... the relief from psoriasis & eczema claims are drug claims, btw. gotta admit, I really don't understand the fanaticism of some goatsmilk soap enthusiasts...a friend and I were shopping in the US last year and stopped at a booth where a woman was selling goatsmilk soap. I wanted my friend to see how poorly labelled some soaps were, etc. The woman running the booth latched on to us, started telling my friend that it was the best thing in the world for problem skin. I said that I liked handmade soap, but didn't really like milk soaps, thanks anyway. Well, she started in on this shrieking diatribe about how goatsmilk had curative powers and how if I was using anything else I was doomed to wrinkles before I was 25 (I was already over 30 at the time...guess not using milksoap hasn't added years to my face *lol*), and how anyone who sold soap that didn't have goatsmilk in it was being dishonest because they were selling products that weren't the best...we were at the food court by the time she finally noticed we were leaving...or ran out of breath. Jules in Vancouver BC > I have a question about the ph of hand made soap. > > There are claims out there that handmade soap made with Goat Milk produce a soap with a ph closer to the skins (5.5). > > Here is a quotes from web pages. > > " By making our soap with goat's milk, we lower it's PH, which helps to maintain the natural PH mantel of your skin. We suggest that you compare the ingredients on the label of commercial " soaps " to the ingredients in ours. Many labels don't even use the word " soap, " becausethey are mostly detergents " made from petroleum products. " > > > > " Although the milk has been used for centuries as a cleanser and skin conditioner, it is presently well accepted by scientists that goat milk soap has a pH level that is closest to the skins own pH level. It has proven to be a gentle soap, tender to sensitive dry skin. It consistently leaves the skin feeling smooth, moisturized and rejuvenated. Many of our customers have reported that they have had relief from Psoriasis and Eczema " > > There are many more claims on this out there.... > > > > I guess my idea of hand made soap is that it is alkali. The ph would be between 8 and 10. I'd like to know how the goats milk lowers the ph of handmade soap to " close to the ph of skin " , which in my understanding is around 5.5. > > > > Thanks!! > > > > Sutton > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2002 Report Share Posted March 1, 2002 Hi Jules, use hydrochloric acid or other such strong acids. A long time ago someone mentioned using citric acid in soap to lower PH. Is that comparable to what you are mentioning above? Your thoughts on this please. And, isn't it desirable to have soap which is a bit more alkaline than the PH of the skin for cleansing purposes? Cheryl Re: Goat Milk PH patent nonsense, ...about the only way to bring handmade soap down to a pH of 5.5 would be to use hydrochloric acid or other such strong acids. Weaker acids, like the fatty acids found in oils, milk and that sort of thing, just won't do it. Neither will the proteins, sugars or anything else in milk of any kind. Think about it...if goatsmilk was capable of turning a fairly alkaline product (pH 10) into something acidic, it would be SO corrosive you'd not be able to drink it! Baby goats would be screaming in agony.... " nooo nannygoat, noooooo " (okay, maybe they'd adapt...) send them an email - ask for the names of the scientists, or for a copy of the studies they're using to back up these miraculous claims of pH reduction! *grin* Ask them their pH testing method and proof of the claim... the relief from psoriasis & eczema claims are drug claims, btw. gotta admit, I really don't understand the fanaticism of some goatsmilk soap enthusiasts...a friend and I were shopping in the US last year and stopped at a booth where a woman was selling goatsmilk soap. I wanted my friend to see how poorly labelled some soaps were, etc. The woman running the booth latched on to us, started telling my friend that it was the best thing in the world for problem skin. I said that I liked handmade soap, but didn't really like milk soaps, thanks anyway. Well, she started in on this shrieking diatribe about how goatsmilk had curative powers and how if I was using anything else I was doomed to wrinkles before I was 25 (I was already over 30 at the time...guess not using milksoap hasn't added years to my face *lol*), and how anyone who sold soap that didn't have goatsmilk in it was being dishonest because they were selling products that weren't the best...we were at the food court by the time she finally noticed we were leaving...or ran out of breath. Jules in Vancouver BC > I have a question about the ph of hand made soap. > > There are claims out there that handmade soap made with Goat Milk produce a soap with a ph closer to the skins (5.5). > > Here is a quotes from web pages. > > " By making our soap with goat's milk, we lower it's PH, which helps to maintain the natural PH mantel of your skin. We suggest that you compare the ingredients on the label of commercial " soaps " to the ingredients in ours. Many labels don't even use the word " soap, " becausethey are mostly detergents " made from petroleum products. " > > > > " Although the milk has been used for centuries as a cleanser and skin conditioner, it is presently well accepted by scientists that goat milk soap has a pH level that is closest to the skins own pH level. It has proven to be a gentle soap, tender to sensitive dry skin. It consistently leaves the skin feeling smooth, moisturized and rejuvenated. Many of our customers have reported that they have had relief from Psoriasis and Eczema " > > There are many more claims on this out there.... > > > > I guess my idea of hand made soap is that it is alkali. The ph would be between 8 and 10. I'd like to know how the goats milk lowers the ph of handmade soap to " close to the ph of skin " , which in my understanding is around 5.5. > > > > Thanks!! > > > > Sutton > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2002 Report Share Posted March 1, 2002 I was pretty sure it was HOG wash....soap is an alkali....If its ph is 5.5 it ain't soap. Thanks for the response Jules! CS Re: Goat Milk PH patent nonsense, ...about the only way to bring handmade soap down to a pH of 5.5 would be to use hydrochloric acid or other such strong acids. Weaker acids, like the fatty acids found in oils, milk and that sort of thing, just won't do it. Neither will the proteins, sugars or anything else in milk of any kind. Think about it...if goatsmilk was capable of turning a fairly alkaline product (pH 10) into something acidic, it would be SO corrosive you'd not be able to drink it! Baby goats would be screaming in agony.... " nooo nannygoat, noooooo " (okay, maybe they'd adapt...) send them an email - ask for the names of the scientists, or for a copy of the studies they're using to back up these miraculous claims of pH reduction! *grin* Ask them their pH testing method and proof of the claim... the relief from psoriasis & eczema claims are drug claims, btw. gotta admit, I really don't understand the fanaticism of some goatsmilk soap enthusiasts...a friend and I were shopping in the US last year and stopped at a booth where a woman was selling goatsmilk soap. I wanted my friend to see how poorly labelled some soaps were, etc. The woman running the booth latched on to us, started telling my friend that it was the best thing in the world for problem skin. I said that I liked handmade soap, but didn't really like milk soaps, thanks anyway. Well, she started in on this shrieking diatribe about how goatsmilk had curative powers and how if I was using anything else I was doomed to wrinkles before I was 25 (I was already over 30 at the time...guess not using milksoap hasn't added years to my face *lol*), and how anyone who sold soap that didn't have goatsmilk in it was being dishonest because they were selling products that weren't the best...we were at the food court by the time she finally noticed we were leaving...or ran out of breath. Jules in Vancouver BC > I have a question about the ph of hand made soap. > > There are claims out there that handmade soap made with Goat Milk produce a soap with a ph closer to the skins (5.5). > > Here is a quotes from web pages. > > " By making our soap with goat's milk, we lower it's PH, which helps to maintain the natural PH mantel of your skin. We suggest that you compare the ingredients on the label of commercial " soaps " to the ingredients in ours. Many labels don't even use the word " soap, " becausethey are mostly detergents " made from petroleum products. " > > > > " Although the milk has been used for centuries as a cleanser and skin conditioner, it is presently well accepted by scientists that goat milk soap has a pH level that is closest to the skins own pH level. It has proven to be a gentle soap, tender to sensitive dry skin. It consistently leaves the skin feeling smooth, moisturized and rejuvenated. Many of our customers have reported that they have had relief from Psoriasis and Eczema " > > There are many more claims on this out there.... > > > > I guess my idea of hand made soap is that it is alkali. The ph would be between 8 and 10. I'd like to know how the goats milk lowers the ph of handmade soap to " close to the ph of skin " , which in my understanding is around 5.5. > > > > Thanks!! > > > > Sutton > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2002 Report Share Posted March 1, 2002 If you decide to write the company, I would be interested in how they " spin " this answer. This could be fun reading. De Re: Goat Milk PH patent nonsense, ...about the only way to bring handmade soap down to a pH of 5.5 would be to use hydrochloric acid or other such strong acids. Weaker acids, like the fatty acids found in oils, milk and that sort of thing, just won't do it. Neither will the proteins, sugars or anything else in milk of any kind. Think about it...if goatsmilk was capable of turning a fairly alkaline product (pH 10) into something acidic, it would be SO corrosive you'd not be able to drink it! Baby goats would be screaming in agony.... " nooo nannygoat, noooooo " (okay, maybe they'd adapt...) send them an email - ask for the names of the scientists, or for a copy of the studies they're using to back up these miraculous claims of pH reduction! *grin* Ask them their pH testing method and proof of the claim... the relief from psoriasis & eczema claims are drug claims, btw. gotta admit, I really don't understand the fanaticism of some goatsmilk soap enthusiasts...a friend and I were shopping in the US last year and stopped at a booth where a woman was selling goatsmilk soap. I wanted my friend to see how poorly labelled some soaps were, etc. The woman running the booth latched on to us, started telling my friend that it was the best thing in the world for problem skin. I said that I liked handmade soap, but didn't really like milk soaps, thanks anyway. Well, she started in on this shrieking diatribe about how goatsmilk had curative powers and how if I was using anything else I was doomed to wrinkles before I was 25 (I was already over 30 at the time...guess not using milksoap hasn't added years to my face *lol*), and how anyone who sold soap that didn't have goatsmilk in it was being dishonest because they were selling products that weren't the best...we were at the food court by the time she finally noticed we were leaving...or ran out of breath. Jules in Vancouver BC > I have a question about the ph of hand made soap. > > There are claims out there that handmade soap made with Goat Milk produce a soap with a ph closer to the skins (5.5). > > Here is a quotes from web pages. > > " By making our soap with goat's milk, we lower it's PH, which helps to maintain the natural PH mantel of your skin. We suggest that you compare the ingredients on the label of commercial " soaps " to the ingredients in ours. Many labels don't even use the word " soap, " becausethey are mostly detergents " made from petroleum products. " > > > > " Although the milk has been used for centuries as a cleanser and skin conditioner, it is presently well accepted by scientists that goat milk soap has a pH level that is closest to the skins own pH level. It has proven to be a gentle soap, tender to sensitive dry skin. It consistently leaves the skin feeling smooth, moisturized and rejuvenated. Many of our customers have reported that they have had relief from Psoriasis and Eczema " > > There are many more claims on this out there.... > > > > I guess my idea of hand made soap is that it is alkali. The ph would be between 8 and 10. I'd like to know how the goats milk lowers the ph of handmade soap to " close to the ph of skin " , which in my understanding is around 5.5. > > > > Thanks!! > > > > Sutton > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2002 Report Share Posted March 1, 2002 > " By making our soap with goat's milk, we lower it's PH, which helps to maintain the natural PH mantel of your skin. We suggest that you compare the ingredients on the label of commercial " soaps " to the ingredients in ours. Many labels don't even use the word " soap, " becausethey are mostly detergents " made from petroleum products. " Hi . I don't know if soap made with goat milk has a lower pH than regular soap. I know it feels milder. This is an interesting paragraph because they don't say that the goat milk lowers the pH, they say they do it. They also don't say that they lower it to the pH of skin, they just say that they lower it. It may be only slightly less than a regular bar of soap. If they intended it is actually a good play on words. Unfortunately, their next paragraph is full of wishful thinking. The only thing there that I do agree with is that goat milk soap is better for my skin. This of course is with my own soap. I have sensitive skin and I much prefer the goat milk. Pat. Peace, Joy, Serenity House of Scents tm. Body Oils, Fragrance Oils, Incense, Candles, Soap, Etc. pat@... http://www.houseofscents.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 In-Reply-To: <1015048766.2925.41015.m4 > Hi , > I have a question about the ph of hand made soap. > There are claims out there that handmade soap made with Goat Milk > produce a soap with a ph closer to the skins (5.5). Soap is, but its nature, around pH10 and nothing you can do will ever make true soap much lower pH than this. I note however that the words you quote are not actually claiming that their soap is pH5.5 but that goats milk lowers the pH (which I also consider to be untrue). It sounds to me like some deliberately misleading marketing-speak. Can you post the URL for the Web site please? PatS in Somerset, England Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 In-Reply-To: <1015048766.2925.41015.m4 > Hi Cheryl, > A long time ago someone mentioned using citric acid in soap to lower > PH. If you add acid to soap what you end up with a slightly lower pH but a lot of free fatty acids and a greasy mess because the stronger acid displaces the fatty acids in the salt (soap is chemically a kind of salt). PatS in Somerset, England Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 Hi Pat, Thank you for your reply about citric acid. And I also appreciate your answer about the essential oils in soap, which I have heard asked time and again. Cheryl If you add acid to soap what you end up with a slightly lower pH but a lot of free fatty acids and a greasy mess because the stronger acid displaces the fatty acids in the salt (soap is chemically a kind of salt). PatS in Somerset, England --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.325 / Virus Database: 182 - Release Date: 2/19/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 http://www.dionissoap.com/us/aboutus.html http://www.tipiretreat.ca/soap.htm (this one doesn't actually say the ph is lower but insinuates it) http://www.nbizz.com/jenalt/listings/93.html http://colestincaprinesgoatmilksoap.com/ColestinWhy.html http://www.fiberdesign.com/goats_milk.html http://www.caprine.co.nz/Unused%20Online%20Magazines/December%201998/MAKING_GOAT\ _SOAP.HTM As You can see there are a plethora of sites out there claiming that goats milk lowers the alkali of hand made soap. I feel this is nonsense, but it is being glommed onto and spreading as a marketing feature. I really hate when pure mis-information takes over until it becomes " fact " in the eyes of those reading it. I've fallen prey to this over the years as well. Fortuanetly, I have usually found out what is true and what is false. I guess it boils down to the old addage of only believe half of that you read. Isn't that a shame? Sutton. (btw...there are tons of false claims on most of those web sites. Gives you a feeling of what is out there eh?) Re: Goat Milk PH In-Reply-To: <1015048766.2925.41015.m4 > Hi , > I have a question about the ph of hand made soap. > There are claims out there that handmade soap made with Goat Milk > produce a soap with a ph closer to the skins (5.5). Soap is, but its nature, around pH10 and nothing you can do will ever make true soap much lower pH than this. I note however that the words you quote are not actually claiming that their soap is pH5.5 but that goats milk lowers the pH (which I also consider to be untrue). It sounds to me like some deliberately misleading marketing-speak. Can you post the URL for the Web site please? PatS in Somerset, England Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 As I have never had the pH of a goat milk soap measured, I had a look at the breakdown of goats milk. The pH seems typically to lie between 6.5 and 6.7. Unfortunately I am not a chemist, and I cannot therefore evaluate the actual effect of any potential buffering from particular milk components, but there is some phosphate and also casein, in milk. However I thought I would throw these results into the discussion on pH in soap. They are from 5 samples of my soap of different ages; at the point they were tested (June last year) these varied from under 3 weeks to a little over a year. They were all the same base recipe, with a (supposed!) superfat of about 6%. The testing method is also given. Sample 1 30/10/00 - 10.13, at 40 celsius Sample 2 16/03/01 - 10.15, at 39 celsius Sample 3 28/05/00 - 10.02, at 39 celsius Sample 4 15/05/01 - 10.14, at 40 celsius Sample 5 21/05/01 - 10.13, at 40 celsius Method: Weigh 2.000 gm (+/- 0.003gm) soap into glass beaker. Add 200 ml deionized water (pH 6.5 - 7.5). Place on magnetic stirrer/hotplate and dissolve up to 40 celsius. Measure pH of the solution with calibrated meter (+/- 0.01 units), using traceable buffers 7 and 10. Take the reading after 1 minute (steady reading), assuring temperature of the meter is set to that of the sample measured (using calibrated thermometer). The following are the results from a little experiment by members of the UKSoaping list. In this case the samples, using the same base recipe with ingredients from the same manufacturers, were prepared by different people each using a different superfat, on more or less the same day. They were pH tested by the same person who did the above samples. 0% 10.55 1% 10.20 2% 10.24 4% 10.25 5% 10.19 5% 10.18 6% 10.21 I don't have any results for superfats over 6% unfortunately, but I would extrapolate that the pH of handmade soap generally lies between 10 and 10.50, possibly just under 10, and not therefore between 8 and 10, and certainly nowhere close to the pH of skin. Those of us who use or make handmade soap have to question why we find our products mild and acceptable to our skin without recourse to these persistent myths that only a product that is of a similar pH to skin, and that does not disturb the skin's 'acid mantel' etc is the only possible way to achieve this. It is simply not borne out by the facts. Therefore there is, somewhere, another explanation, but we won't find it if we continue to persist in trying to equate a good, mild soap with low pH. Rose The London Soap Company In a message dated 2/3/02 6:00:44 am, Cosmeticinfo writes: << I have a question about the ph of hand made soap. There are claims out there that handmade soap made with Goat Milk produce a soap with a ph closer to the skins (5.5). Here is a quotes from web pages. " By making our soap with goat's milk, we lower it's PH, which helps to maintain the natural PH mantel of your skin. We suggest that you compare the ingredients on the label of commercial " soaps " to the ingredients in ours. Many labels don't even use the word " soap, " becausethey are mostly detergents " made from petroleum products. " " Although the milk has been used for centuries as a cleanser and skin conditioner, it is presently well accepted by scientists that goat milk soap has a pH level that is closest to the skins own pH level. It has proven to be a gentle soap, tender to sensitive dry skin. It consistently leaves the skin feeling smooth, moisturized and rejuvenated. Many of our customers have reported that they have had relief from Psoriasis and Eczema " There are many more claims on this out there.... I guess my idea of hand made soap is that it is alkali. The ph would be between 8 and 10. I'd like to know how the goats milk lowers the ph of handmade soap to " close to the ph of skin " , which in my understanding is around 5.5. Thanks!! Sutton >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 I did a little web research on this a few weeks ago, after an old-school dermatologist told me the eczema/dermatitis I've been fighting for a year is caused by the high pH of my homemade " lye soap " and that I should use Dove instead. Many of the websites touting the lower pH of goatmilk soap say that it's the caprylic acid in goatmilk that reduces the pH. I did a search and found two sites (http://res2.agr.ca/crda/articles/goat2000.PDF and http://class.fst.ohio-state.edu/FST605/lectures/Lipidstructure.pdf) that indicate the level of caprylic acid in goatmilk is less than 1/10 of 1 percent. Coconut oil, on the other hand, has about 7 percent caprylic acid -- more than 70 times as much as goatmilk. If caprylic acid truly lowered the pH, it seems that a soap high in coconut oil would be much closer to neutral than one made with goatmilk. I don't doubt that goatmilk makes mild soap, but I can't believe the caprylic acid has much to do with it. Another interesting statement in the quote below is the one about detergents made from petroleum products. I've often seen this claim, but I've never been able to find anything to back it up -- from what I read, most synthetic detergents seem to be derived from coconut oil. IS there any truth to claims that " evil corporate soaps " are petroleum products? BTW, after brooding for a couple of days about the close-minded ignorance/arrogance of the dermatologist, I decided I would be just as close minded if I didn't give Dove a try. I've been using it for three weeks and my skin has not improved at all. Roxanne --- " Sutton " wrote: There are claims out there that handmade soap made with Goat Milk produce a soap with a ph closer to the skins (5.5). Here is a quotes from web pages. " By making our soap with goat's milk, we lower it's PH, which helps to maintain the natural PH mantel of your skin. We suggest that you compare the ingredients on the label of commercial " soaps " to the ingredients in ours. Many labels don't even use the word " soap, " becausethey are mostly detergents " made from petroleum products. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 I'm curious. I have both goat milk soap and water based soaps here and I'd like to test them to see if there is a difference in the PH of those I have on hand. I have a PH meter (and the buffering solutions). Can someone tell me the correct proportions to use to measure the PH of a soap solution, specifically the ratio of grams of soap to ML of distilled water to make the solution? Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 >Can someone tell >me the correct proportions to use to measure the PH of a soap solution, >specifically the ratio of grams of soap to ML of distilled water to make the >solution? If the soap is a liquid, mesure the pH as is. If the soap is a solid, make up a 10% solution (10 grams of soap and 90 grams of water (distilled if possible)). Maurice ------------------------ Maurice O. Hevey Convergent Cosmetics, Inc. http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 , will you let us all know? Thanks Re: RE: Goat Milk PH I'm curious. I have both goat milk soap and water based soaps here and I'd like to test them to see if there is a difference in the PH of those I have on hand. I have a PH meter (and the buffering solutions). Can someone tell me the correct proportions to use to measure the PH of a soap solution, specifically the ratio of grams of soap to ML of distilled water to make the solution? Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 >Many of the websites touting the lower pH of goatmilk soap say that it's the >caprylic acid in goatmilk that reduces the pH. I did a search and found two >sites (http://res2.agr.ca/crda/articles/goat2000.PDF and >http://class.fst.ohio-state.edu/FST605/lectures/Lipidstructure.pdf) that >indicate the level of caprylic acid in goatmilk is less than 1/10 of 1 >percent. Coconut oil, on the other hand, has about 7 percent caprylic >acid -- more than 70 times as much as goatmilk. If caprylic acid truly >lowered the pH, it seems that a soap high in coconut oil would be much >closer to neutral than one made with goatmilk. I don't doubt that goatmilk >makes mild soap, but I can't believe the caprylic acid has much to do with >it. I'm impressed! Great research. That first link about goat2000.PDF is a saver. According to the USDA, 100 grams of goat milk contains approximately 4 grams of fatty acids. In other words, goat milk contains 4% fatty acids. I did some calculations and came up with this breakdown of the fatty acids: Oleic Acid = 27.2% Palmitic Acid = 25.4% Stearic Acid = 12.3% Myristic Acid = 9.1% Capric Acid = 7.2% Butyric Acid = 3.6% Lauric Acid = 3.5% Linoleic (Omega 6) Acid = 3% Caprylic Acid = 2.7% Caproic Acid = 2.6% Palmitoleic Acid = 2.3% Linolenic (Omega 3) Acid = 1.1% And you are correct about the Coconut Oil, based on the USDA's analysis, Coconut Oil contains 7.5% Caprylic Acid. >Another interesting statement in the quote below is the one about detergents >made from petroleum products. I've often seen this claim, but I've never >been able to find anything to back it up -- from what I read, most synthetic >detergents seem to be derived from coconut oil. IS there any truth to claims >that " evil corporate soaps " are petroleum products? Most synthetic detergents used in personal care products are derived from Lauryl Alcohol. Due to economics, Coconuts are the primary source of Lauric Acid, which is used to make Lauryl Alcohol, which is further modified to make any number of synthetic detergents. The Ethylene Oxide that is used to ethoxylate Lauryl Alcohol comes from an oil well somewhere. This is the same Ethylene Oxide that is used to sterilize the surgical tools used in many operating rooms. In a very strict sense, there is nothing more organic and natural then crude oil. Think about it. Crude oil is an extract of the earth's biomass. A natural extract derived from Proprietary blend of prehistoric life forms. In many ways, chemicals are like people. Some chemicals will cause you harm. Some chemicals can cure and heal. Unfortunately, you can't tell just by looking at its name, color or where it came from. Each chemical is different and special in it's own way. All pure natural chemicals are NOT absolutely good or bad. All synthetic chemicals are NOT absolutely good or bad. Chemicals are not be to feared. Chemicals should be respected. Chemicals should be used, not abused. Maurice ------------------------ Maurice O. Hevey Convergent Cosmetics, Inc. http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 Could I copy your post please? Thank you in advance Sutton Re: Goat Milk PH As I have never had the pH of a goat milk soap measured, I had a look at the breakdown of goats milk. The pH seems typically to lie between 6.5 and 6.7. Unfortunately I am not a chemist, and I cannot therefore evaluate the actual effect of any potential buffering from particular milk components, but there is some phosphate and also casein, in milk. However I thought I would throw these results into the discussion on pH in soap. They are from 5 samples of my soap of different ages; at the point they were tested (June last year) these varied from under 3 weeks to a little over a year. They were all the same base recipe, with a (supposed!) superfat of about 6%. The testing method is also given. Sample 1 30/10/00 - 10.13, at 40 celsius Sample 2 16/03/01 - 10.15, at 39 celsius Sample 3 28/05/00 - 10.02, at 39 celsius Sample 4 15/05/01 - 10.14, at 40 celsius Sample 5 21/05/01 - 10.13, at 40 celsius Method: Weigh 2.000 gm (+/- 0.003gm) soap into glass beaker. Add 200 ml deionized water (pH 6.5 - 7.5). Place on magnetic stirrer/hotplate and dissolve up to 40 celsius. Measure pH of the solution with calibrated meter (+/- 0.01 units), using traceable buffers 7 and 10. Take the reading after 1 minute (steady reading), assuring temperature of the meter is set to that of the sample measured (using calibrated thermometer). The following are the results from a little experiment by members of the UKSoaping list. In this case the samples, using the same base recipe with ingredients from the same manufacturers, were prepared by different people each using a different superfat, on more or less the same day. They were pH tested by the same person who did the above samples. 0% 10.55 1% 10.20 2% 10.24 4% 10.25 5% 10.19 5% 10.18 6% 10.21 I don't have any results for superfats over 6% unfortunately, but I would extrapolate that the pH of handmade soap generally lies between 10 and 10.50, possibly just under 10, and not therefore between 8 and 10, and certainly nowhere close to the pH of skin. Those of us who use or make handmade soap have to question why we find our products mild and acceptable to our skin without recourse to these persistent myths that only a product that is of a similar pH to skin, and that does not disturb the skin's 'acid mantel' etc is the only possible way to achieve this. It is simply not borne out by the facts. Therefore there is, somewhere, another explanation, but we won't find it if we continue to persist in trying to equate a good, mild soap with low pH. Rose The London Soap Company In a message dated 2/3/02 6:00:44 am, Cosmeticinfo writes: << I have a question about the ph of hand made soap. There are claims out there that handmade soap made with Goat Milk produce a soap with a ph closer to the skins (5.5). Here is a quotes from web pages. " By making our soap with goat's milk, we lower it's PH, which helps to maintain the natural PH mantel of your skin. We suggest that you compare the ingredients on the label of commercial " soaps " to the ingredients in ours. Many labels don't even use the word " soap, " becausethey are mostly detergents " made from petroleum products. " " Although the milk has been used for centuries as a cleanser and skin conditioner, it is presently well accepted by scientists that goat milk soap has a pH level that is closest to the skins own pH level. It has proven to be a gentle soap, tender to sensitive dry skin. It consistently leaves the skin feeling smooth, moisturized and rejuvenated. Many of our customers have reported that they have had relief from Psoriasis and Eczema " There are many more claims on this out there.... I guess my idea of hand made soap is that it is alkali. The ph would be between 8 and 10. I'd like to know how the goats milk lowers the ph of handmade soap to " close to the ph of skin " , which in my understanding is around 5.5. Thanks!! Sutton >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 >As I have never had the pH of a goat milk soap measured, I had a look at the >breakdown of goats milk. The pH seems typically to lie between 6.5 and 6.7. >Unfortunately I am not a chemist, and I cannot therefore evaluate the actual >effect of any potential buffering from particular milk components, but there >is some phosphate and also casein, in milk. From what I've been able to find on the web, the pH of a 10% solution of Sodium Caprylate should range from 8.3 to 9.3. http://www.par-chem.com/Product4/sodium_caprylate.html You are correct. There are many other things in Goat Milk that could influence the pH and " apparent " mildness. If you look at the USDA analysis you see that conatains vitamins, minerals and a vast assortment of amino acids as well as Cholesterol. >However I thought I would throw these results into the discussion on pH in >soap. They are from 5 samples of my soap of different ages; at the point >they were tested (June last year) these varied from under 3 weeks to a little >over a year. They were all the same base recipe, with a (supposed!) superfat >of about 6%. The testing method is also given. >Sample 1 30/10/00 - 10.13, at 40 celsius >Sample 2 16/03/01 - 10.15, at 39 celsius >Sample 3 28/05/00 - 10.02, at 39 celsius >Sample 4 15/05/01 - 10.14, at 40 celsius >Sample 5 21/05/01 - 10.13, at 40 celsius > > >Method: > >Weigh 2.000 gm (+/- 0.003gm) soap into glass beaker. Add 200 ml > >deionized water (pH 6.5 - 7.5). Place on magnetic stirrer/hotplate > >and dissolve up to 40 celsius. Measure pH of the solution with > >calibrated meter (+/- 0.01 units), using traceable buffers 7 and 10. > >Take the reading after 1 minute (steady reading), assuring > >temperature of the meter is set to that of the sample measured (using > >calibrated thermometer). > >The following are the results from a little experiment by members of the >UKSoaping list. In this case the samples, using the same base recipe with >ingredients from the same manufacturers, were prepared by different people >each using a different superfat, on more or less the same day. They were pH >tested by the same person who did the above samples. > >0% 10.55 >1% 10.20 >2% 10.24 >4% 10.25 >5% 10.19 >5% 10.18 >6% 10.21 > >I don't have any results for superfats over 6% unfortunately, but I would >extrapolate that the pH of handmade soap generally lies between 10 and 10.50, >possibly just under 10, and not therefore between 8 and 10, and certainly >nowhere close to the pH of skin. Great data. Thanks for sharing with the list members. >Those of us who use or make handmade soap have to question why we find our >products mild and acceptable to our skin without recourse to these persistent >myths that only a product that is of a similar pH to skin, and that does not >disturb the skin's 'acid mantel' etc is the only possible way to achieve >this. Sometime ago, I remember attending an annual meeting of the American Dermatological Association (ADA) and there was a paper presented by a company called Beiersdorf. They showed that the pH of the skin was higher after using an alkaline soap but the acid mantle returned soon after exposure. Out of curiosity, I did a MEDLINE search for Acid mantle and pH And found the following selected abstracts: (pay close attention to the last abstract) _______ Generation of free fatty acids from phospholipids regulates stratum corneum acidification and integrity. Fluhr JW, Kao J, Jain M, Ahn SK, Feingold KR, Elias PM. J Invest Dermatol. 2001 Jul;117(1):44-51. Comment in: J Invest Dermatol. 2001 Jul;117(1):2, 170. PMID: 11482303 Dermatology Service, Veterans Affairs Medical Center, and Department of Dermatology, University of California, San Francisco, USA. There is evidence that the " acid mantle " of the stratum corneum is important for both permeability barrier formation and cutaneous antimicrobial defense. The origin of the acidic pH of the stratum corneum remains conjectural, however. Both passive (e.g., eccrine/sebaceous secretions, proteolytic) and active (e.g., proton pumps) mechanisms have been proposed. We assessed here whether the free fatty acid pool, which is derived from phospholipase-mediated hydrolysis of phospholipids during cornification, contributes to stratum corneum acidification and function. Topical applications of two chemically unrelated secretory phospholipase sPLA2 inhibitors, bromphenacylbromide and 1-hexadecyl-3-trifluoroethylglycero-sn-2-phosphomethanol, for 3 d produced an increase in the pH of murine skin surface that was paralleled not only by a permeability barrier abnormality but also altered stratum corneum integrity (number of strippings required to break the barrier) and decreased stratum corneum cohesion (protein weight removed per stripping). Not only stratum corneum pH but also all of the functional abnormalities normalized when either palmitic, stearic, or linoleic acids were coapplied with the inhibitors. Moreover, exposure of intact murine stratum corneum to a neutral pH for as little as 3 h produced comparable abnormalities in stratum corneum integrity and cohesion, and further amplified the inhibitor-induced functional alterations. Furthermore, short-term applications of an acidic pH buffer to inhibitor-treated skin also reversed the abnormalities in stratum corneum integrity and cohesion, despite the ongoing decrease in free fatty acid levels. Finally, the secretory-phospholipase-inhibitor-induced alterations in integrity/cohesion were in accordance with premature dissolution of desmosomes, demonstrated both by electron microscopy and by reduced desmoglein 1 levels in the stratum corneum (shown by immunofluorescence staining and visualized by confocal microscopy). Together, these results demonstrate: (i) the importance of phospholipid-to-free-fatty-acid processing for normal stratum corneum acidification; and (ii) the potentially important role of this pathway not only for barrier homeostasis but also for the dual functions of stratum corneum integrity and cohesion. ------- The pH gradient over the stratum corneum differs in X-linked recessive and autosomal dominant ichthyosis: a clue to the molecular origin of the " acid skin mantle " ? Ohman H, Vahlquist A. J Invest Dermatol. 1998 Oct;111(4):674-7. Department of Biomedicine and Surgery, University Hospital, Linkoping, Sweden. In a search for pathogenetic mechanisms underlying retention hyperkeratosis, we examined the pH gradient over the stratum corneum in 13 male patients suffering from either x-linked recessive (XRI) or autosomal dominant ichthyosis vulgaris. For recording pH values, a flat glass electrode was repeatedly applied to the skin during tape stripping of mildly involved forearm skin. Before stripping, surface pH was higher in ichthyosis vulgaris (5.3 +/- 0.7; n = 7) than in XRI (4.6 +/- 0.4; n = 6; p < 0.05) and healthy control men (4.5 +/- 0.2; n = 7; p < 0.01). Removal of stratum corneum, which required 100-240 strippings in ichthyotic skin and 80-120 strippings in healthy control skin, disclosed markedly different pH variations in the two types of ichthyosis. The major abnormality in ichthyosis vulgaris skin was that a neutral pH was attained already halfway through the horny layer, possibly reflecting a congenital lack of acidic breakdown products from keratohyaline. By contrast, stripping of XRI skin revealed a shallow pH gradient that plateaued at 6.2-6.6, instead of about 7 as in normal and ichthyosis vulgaris skin. A likely explanation is the XRI-associated accumulation of cholesterol sulfate in lower stratum corneum. Our results suggest that the " acid mantle " of normal skin, which penetrates deep into the stratum corneum, is the combined result of cornification-associated organic acids and back-diffusion of acid material from the surface. Because corneocyte desquamation involves many pH-dependent enzymes, abnormalities in the transcorneal pH gradient might play a role in the pathogenesis of ichthyosis. ----------- Effects of soap and detergents on skin surface pH, stratum corneum hydration and fat content in infants. Gfatter R, Hackl P, Braun F. Dermatology. 1997;195(3):258-62. Department of Pediatrics, University of Vienna, School of Medicine, Austria. BACKGROUND: In adults the influence of cleansing preparations on the pH, fat content and hydration of the skin is well documented. Studies in newborn and small infants have not been reported. OBJECTIVE: Our study aimed at examining whether similar effects can be ascertained in infants. METHODS: Infants without skin disease, aged 2 weeks to 16 months, entered an open, controlled and randomized study. Ten infants each had skin washed with tap water (control group), liquid detergent (pH 5.5), compact detergent (pH 5.5) or alkaline soap (pH 9.5). The pH, fat content and hydration were measured before and 10 min after cleansing. Findings were statistically evaluated by parametric covariance analysis. RESULTS: The skin pH increased from an average of 6.60 after cleansing in all groups. The smallest increase (+0.19) was observed in the control group, the largest (+0.45) after washing with alkaline soap. After treatment with liquid or compact detergent, the increase of the pH was only 0.09 higher than for the control group. In comparison to the compact and liquid detergents, the alkaline soap group had a significantly higher increase in pH. The fat content (mean starting value: 4.34 micrograms/cm2) decreased after washing in all groups; the smallest effect was observed in the control group (decrease of 0.93 micrograms/cm2), the highest for the alkaline soap group (decrease of 4.81 micrograms/cm2). In comparison to the compact and liquid detergents, the alkaline soap group had a higher decrease in fat content. This difference was significant for compact detergents. No statistically significant differences were observed for hydration before versus after washing. CONCLUSION: Each cleansing agent, even normal tap water, influences the skin surface. The increase of the skin pH irritates the physiological protective 'acid mantle', changes the composition of the cutaneous bacterial flora and the activity of enzymes in the upper epidermis, which have an acid pH optimum. The dissolution of fat from the skin surface may influence the hydration status leading to a dry and squamous skin. ---------- In vivo studies concerning a pH gradient in human stratum corneum and upper epidermis. Ohman H, Vahlquist A. Acta Derm Venereol. 1994 Sep;74(5):375-9. Department of Dermatology, University Hospital, Linkoping, Sweden. Human skin has an acid mantle of pH 4-6, contrasting with the almost neutral pH of the interior body and implying the existence of a pH gradient over the horny layer that might influence a variety of epidermal processes. In an attempt to characterize the pH gradient, we applied a glass electrode to the volar surface of the forearm before and after consecutive strippings with sello-tape. Before stripping, the surface pH (mean +/- SD) was 4.5 +/- 0.2 in men (n = 7) and 5.3 +/- 0.5 in women (n = 7), the values gradually increasing to pH 6.9 +/- 0.4 in men and 6.8 +/- 0.5 in women after about 100-120 tape strippings, which completely removed the stratum corneum. When plotted against the number of strippings, the pH values usually conformed to a sigmoid curve with inflection (50% change) after about 60 strippings, at a level corresponding histologically to the lower third of stratum corneum. Similar gradients were found also in skin of the abdomen and calf. Stripping with cyanoacrylate resin produced a similar gradient, even though this form of stripping was 10 times more effective. The healing process after tape stripping was studied by determining pH and transepidermal water loss in 5 persons over a period of 14 days. The importance of the re-established pH gradient is discussed in relation to the many pH-dependent enzymes operating in stratum corneum. --------- Effect of pH on the production of irritation in a chamber irritation test. Murahata RI, Toton-Quinn R, Finkey MB. J Am Acad Dermatol. 1988 Jan;18(1 Pt 1):62-6. Department of New Science and Technology, Dial Technical Center, sdale, AZ 85254. This study was designed to investigate the relationship between alteration of skin surface pH and the development of skin irritation. Application of a phosphate/borate/acetate buffer adjusted to pH 4.0-10.5 in a standard chamber irritation test did not result in significant clinical irritation. This was true in spite of maintaining a markedly altered skin surface pH over an extended period of time. There was also no correlation between irritation and the pH of applied surfactant solutions. These results demonstrate that a prolonged disturbance of the " acid mantle " is not sufficient to produce clinical irritation. >It is simply not borne out by the facts. Therefore there is, >somewhere, another explanation, but we won't find it if we continue to >persist in trying to equate a good, mild soap with low pH. This is true. Could the benefits be from what is left on the skin after the soap is used and rinsed off? Maurice ------------------------ Maurice O. Hevey Convergent Cosmetics, Inc. http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 I sent this message earlier but never showed up. I'll try again ==================BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE================== > >To: " Cosmeticinfo " <Cosmeticinfo >, > " cromptonrt@... " >Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 19:34:41 -0600 >Subject: Re: Goat Milk PH > >As I have never had the pH of a goat milk soap measured, I had a look at the >breakdown of goats milk. The pH seems typically to lie between 6.5 and 6.7. >Unfortunately I am not a chemist, and I cannot therefore evaluate the actual >effect of any potential buffering from particular milk components, but there >is some phosphate and also casein, in milk. From what I've been able to find on the web, the pH of a 10% solution of Sodium Caprylate should range from 8.3 to 9.3. http://www.par-chem.com/Product4/sodium_caprylate.html You are correct. There are many other things in Goat Milk that could influence the pH and " apparent " mildness. If you look at the USDA analysis you see that conatains vitamins, minerals and a vast assortment of amino acids as well as Cholesterol. >However I thought I would throw these results into the discussion on pH in >soap. They are from 5 samples of my soap of different ages; at the point >they were tested (June last year) these varied from under 3 weeks to a little >over a year. They were all the same base recipe, with a (supposed!) superfat >of about 6%. The testing method is also given. >Sample 1 30/10/00 - 10.13, at 40 celsius >Sample 2 16/03/01 - 10.15, at 39 celsius >Sample 3 28/05/00 - 10.02, at 39 celsius >Sample 4 15/05/01 - 10.14, at 40 celsius >Sample 5 21/05/01 - 10.13, at 40 celsius > > >Method: > >Weigh 2.000 gm (+/- 0.003gm) soap into glass beaker. Add 200 ml > >deionized water (pH 6.5 - 7.5). Place on magnetic stirrer/hotplate > >and dissolve up to 40 celsius. Measure pH of the solution with > >calibrated meter (+/- 0.01 units), using traceable buffers 7 and 10. > >Take the reading after 1 minute (steady reading), assuring > >temperature of the meter is set to that of the sample measured (using > >calibrated thermometer). > >The following are the results from a little experiment by members of the >UKSoaping list. In this case the samples, using the same base recipe with >ingredients from the same manufacturers, were prepared by different people >each using a different superfat, on more or less the same day. They were pH >tested by the same person who did the above samples. > >0% 10.55 >1% 10.20 >2% 10.24 >4% 10.25 >5% 10.19 >5% 10.18 >6% 10.21 > >I don't have any results for superfats over 6% unfortunately, but I would >extrapolate that the pH of handmade soap generally lies between 10 and 10.50, >possibly just under 10, and not therefore between 8 and 10, and certainly >nowhere close to the pH of skin. Great data. Thanks for sharing with the list members. >Those of us who use or make handmade soap have to question why we find our >products mild and acceptable to our skin without recourse to these persistent >myths that only a product that is of a similar pH to skin, and that does not >disturb the skin's 'acid mantel' etc is the only possible way to achieve >this. Sometime ago, I remember attending an annual meeting of the American Dermatological Association (ADA) and there was a paper presented by a company called Beiersdorf. They showed that the pH of the skin was higher after using an alkaline soap but the acid mantle returned soon after exposure. Out of curiosity, I did a MEDLINE search for Acid mantle and pH And found the following selected abstracts: (pay close attention to the last abstract) _______ Generation of free fatty acids from phospholipids regulates stratum corneum acidification and integrity. Fluhr JW, Kao J, Jain M, Ahn SK, Feingold KR, Elias PM. J Invest Dermatol. 2001 Jul;117(1):44-51. Comment in: J Invest Dermatol. 2001 Jul;117(1):2, 170. PMID: 11482303 Dermatology Service, Veterans Affairs Medical Center, and Department of Dermatology, University of California, San Francisco, USA. There is evidence that the " acid mantle " of the stratum corneum is important for both permeability barrier formation and cutaneous antimicrobial defense. The origin of the acidic pH of the stratum corneum remains conjectural, however. Both passive (e.g., eccrine/sebaceous secretions, proteolytic) and active (e.g., proton pumps) mechanisms have been proposed. We assessed here whether the free fatty acid pool, which is derived from phospholipase-mediated hydrolysis of phospholipids during cornification, contributes to stratum corneum acidification and function. Topical applications of two chemically unrelated secretory phospholipase sPLA2 inhibitors, bromphenacylbromide and 1-hexadecyl-3-trifluoroethylglycero-sn-2-phosphomethanol, for 3 d produced an increase in the pH of murine skin surface that was paralleled not only by a permeability barrier abnormality but also altered stratum corneum integrity (number of strippings required to break the barrier) and decreased stratum corneum cohesion (protein weight removed per stripping). Not only stratum corneum pH but also all of the functional abnormalities normalized when either palmitic, stearic, or linoleic acids were coapplied with the inhibitors. Moreover, exposure of intact murine stratum corneum to a neutral pH for as little as 3 h produced comparable abnormalities in stratum corneum integrity and cohesion, and further amplified the inhibitor-induced functional alterations. Furthermore, short-term applications of an acidic pH buffer to inhibitor-treated skin also reversed the abnormalities in stratum corneum integrity and cohesion, despite the ongoing decrease in free fatty acid levels. Finally, the secretory-phospholipase-inhibitor-induced alterations in integrity/cohesion were in accordance with premature dissolution of desmosomes, demonstrated both by electron microscopy and by reduced desmoglein 1 levels in the stratum corneum (shown by immunofluorescence staining and visualized by confocal microscopy). Together, these results demonstrate: (i) the importance of phospholipid-to-free-fatty-acid processing for normal stratum corneum acidification; and (ii) the potentially important role of this pathway not only for barrier homeostasis but also for the dual functions of stratum corneum integrity and cohesion. ------- The pH gradient over the stratum corneum differs in X-linked recessive and autosomal dominant ichthyosis: a clue to the molecular origin of the " acid skin mantle " ? Ohman H, Vahlquist A. J Invest Dermatol. 1998 Oct;111(4):674-7. Department of Biomedicine and Surgery, University Hospital, Linkoping, Sweden. In a search for pathogenetic mechanisms underlying retention hyperkeratosis, we examined the pH gradient over the stratum corneum in 13 male patients suffering from either x-linked recessive (XRI) or autosomal dominant ichthyosis vulgaris. For recording pH values, a flat glass electrode was repeatedly applied to the skin during tape stripping of mildly involved forearm skin. Before stripping, surface pH was higher in ichthyosis vulgaris (5.3 +/- 0.7; n = 7) than in XRI (4.6 +/- 0.4; n = 6; p < 0.05) and healthy control men (4.5 +/- 0.2; n = 7; p < 0.01). Removal of stratum corneum, which required 100-240 strippings in ichthyotic skin and 80-120 strippings in healthy control skin, disclosed markedly different pH variations in the two types of ichthyosis. The major abnormality in ichthyosis vulgaris skin was that a neutral pH was attained already halfway through the horny layer, possibly reflecting a congenital lack of acidic breakdown products from keratohyaline. By contrast, stripping of XRI skin revealed a shallow pH gradient that plateaued at 6.2-6.6, instead of about 7 as in normal and ichthyosis vulgaris skin. A likely explanation is the XRI-associated accumulation of cholesterol sulfate in lower stratum corneum. Our results suggest that the " acid mantle " of normal skin, which penetrates deep into the stratum corneum, is the combined result of cornification-associated organic acids and back-diffusion of acid material from the surface. Because corneocyte desquamation involves many pH-dependent enzymes, abnormalities in the transcorneal pH gradient might play a role in the pathogenesis of ichthyosis. ----------- Effects of soap and detergents on skin surface pH, stratum corneum hydration and fat content in infants. Gfatter R, Hackl P, Braun F. Dermatology. 1997;195(3):258-62. Department of Pediatrics, University of Vienna, School of Medicine, Austria. BACKGROUND: In adults the influence of cleansing preparations on the pH, fat content and hydration of the skin is well documented. Studies in newborn and small infants have not been reported. OBJECTIVE: Our study aimed at examining whether similar effects can be ascertained in infants. METHODS: Infants without skin disease, aged 2 weeks to 16 months, entered an open, controlled and randomized study. Ten infants each had skin washed with tap water (control group), liquid detergent (pH 5.5), compact detergent (pH 5.5) or alkaline soap (pH 9.5). The pH, fat content and hydration were measured before and 10 min after cleansing. Findings were statistically evaluated by parametric covariance analysis. RESULTS: The skin pH increased from an average of 6.60 after cleansing in all groups. The smallest increase (+0.19) was observed in the control group, the largest (+0.45) after washing with alkaline soap. After treatment with liquid or compact detergent, the increase of the pH was only 0.09 higher than for the control group. In comparison to the compact and liquid detergents, the alkaline soap group had a significantly higher increase in pH. The fat content (mean starting value: 4.34 micrograms/cm2) decreased after washing in all groups; the smallest effect was observed in the control group (decrease of 0.93 micrograms/cm2), the highest for the alkaline soap group (decrease of 4.81 micrograms/cm2). In comparison to the compact and liquid detergents, the alkaline soap group had a higher decrease in fat content. This difference was significant for compact detergents. No statistically significant differences were observed for hydration before versus after washing. CONCLUSION: Each cleansing agent, even normal tap water, influences the skin surface. The increase of the skin pH irritates the physiological protective 'acid mantle', changes the composition of the cutaneous bacterial flora and the activity of enzymes in the upper epidermis, which have an acid pH optimum. The dissolution of fat from the skin surface may influence the hydration status leading to a dry and squamous skin. ---------- In vivo studies concerning a pH gradient in human stratum corneum and upper epidermis. Ohman H, Vahlquist A. Acta Derm Venereol. 1994 Sep;74(5):375-9. Department of Dermatology, University Hospital, Linkoping, Sweden. Human skin has an acid mantle of pH 4-6, contrasting with the almost neutral pH of the interior body and implying the existence of a pH gradient over the horny layer that might influence a variety of epidermal processes. In an attempt to characterize the pH gradient, we applied a glass electrode to the volar surface of the forearm before and after consecutive strippings with sello-tape. Before stripping, the surface pH (mean +/- SD) was 4.5 +/- 0.2 in men (n = 7) and 5.3 +/- 0.5 in women (n = 7), the values gradually increasing to pH 6.9 +/- 0.4 in men and 6.8 +/- 0.5 in women after about 100-120 tape strippings, which completely removed the stratum corneum. When plotted against the number of strippings, the pH values usually conformed to a sigmoid curve with inflection (50% change) after about 60 strippings, at a level corresponding histologically to the lower third of stratum corneum. Similar gradients were found also in skin of the abdomen and calf. Stripping with cyanoacrylate resin produced a similar gradient, even though this form of stripping was 10 times more effective. The healing process after tape stripping was studied by determining pH and transepidermal water loss in 5 persons over a period of 14 days. The importance of the re-established pH gradient is discussed in relation to the many pH-dependent enzymes operating in stratum corneum. --------- Effect of pH on the production of irritation in a chamber irritation test. Murahata RI, Toton-Quinn R, Finkey MB. J Am Acad Dermatol. 1988 Jan;18(1 Pt 1):62-6. Department of New Science and Technology, Dial Technical Center, sdale, AZ 85254. This study was designed to investigate the relationship between alteration of skin surface pH and the development of skin irritation. Application of a phosphate/borate/acetate buffer adjusted to pH 4.0-10.5 in a standard chamber irritation test did not result in significant clinical irritation. This was true in spite of maintaining a markedly altered skin surface pH over an extended period of time. There was also no correlation between irritation and the pH of applied surfactant solutions. These results demonstrate that a prolonged disturbance of the " acid mantle " is not sufficient to produce clinical irritation. >It is simply not borne out by the facts. Therefore there is, >somewhere, another explanation, but we won't find it if we continue to >persist in trying to equate a good, mild soap with low pH. This is true. Could the benefits be from what is left on the skin after the soap is used and rinsed off? Maurice ------------------------ Maurice O. Hevey Convergent Cosmetics, Inc. http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com ===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE=================== ------------------------ Maurice O. Hevey Convergent Cosmetics, Inc. http://www.ConvergentCosmetics.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 Well, these are nowhere near as detailed as Rose's results, but here goes. I tested 6 samples, all of which were 6-9 months old. Three were my own goat milk soaps using 3 different formulas, but all made using 50% fresh, whole goat milk and 50% water, and superfatted about 2%-3%. The others were from 3 different soapmakers (obtained in a swap early last summer). I chose them because their ingredients listed water only (no milk) for the liquid. Since they were not my products I have no idea of their superfatting levels. 2 gm of soap were added to 18 gm of steam distilled water at room temperature. The soap was left to dissolve (while I drove to town to buy new batteries for my pH meter <g>). The pH meter was calibrated with pH 4.0 and pH 7.0 buffer solutions and recalibrated between each test solution. Soap # 1 9.6 goat milk Soap # 2 9.4 goat milk Soap # 3 9.4 goat milk Soap # 4 9.6 water Soap # 5 9.7 water Soap # 6 9.6 water As you can see, there isn't a lot of difference between any of them, but the GMS were as low or lower than those made with water. I don't have a web site (yet) and don't make any claims about my goat milk soaps to those who buy it. But I do have people who keep coming back for more or won't use anything else because they do have sensitive skin and it really does seem to help them. Being a soapmaker, I try all sorts of soaps made by others (call it research <g>), but I find milk based soaps (whether scented with EO's, FO's or unscented) to be milder to me, to the point that I no longer make anything but milk soaps. To my way of thinking, if it's a good soap with water, it's a great soap with milk. <BG> Jen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2002 Report Share Posted March 3, 2002 Hi You are very welcome; I think the members of UKSoaping who made the experiment, and the chemist who kindly did the pH testing and devised the protocol (I kept him anonymous because I hadn't asked his permission!) wouldn't mind. Rose <<Could I copy your post please? Thank you in advance Sutton>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2002 Report Share Posted March 3, 2002 Thanks for this Maurice! I have to confess that I have long had a private theory that the use of soap might even be somehow beneficial to the skin's mechanism of production of whatever it needs to maintain itself by regularly challenging it... Just on the quite unscientific grounds that if you don't use it, you lose it! None of these fascinating papers support this theory, but it does seem that if the skin is not actually damaged then the mechanisms cope very well. Rose The London Soap Company << Sometime ago, I remember attending an annual meeting of the American Dermatological Association (ADA) and there was a paper presented by a company called Beiersdorf. They showed that the pH of the skin was higher after using an alkaline soap but the acid mantle returned soon after exposure. Out of curiosity, I did a MEDLINE search for Acid mantle and pH >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2002 Report Share Posted March 3, 2002 Jen > new batteries for my pH meter <g>). The pH meter was calibrated with pH 4.0 > and pH 7.0 buffer solutions and recalibrated between each test solution. > > Soap # 1 9.6 goat milk > Soap # 2 9.4 goat milk > Soap # 3 9.4 goat milk > Soap # 4 9.6 water > Soap # 5 9.7 water > Soap # 6 9.6 water The main problem with these results is the calibration of your pH meter using buffers 7 and 4. You should have used 7 and 10 for greater accuracy. I have known results be out by 0.5 to 1 pH unit when calibrated incorrectly. Dave E > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2002 Report Share Posted March 3, 2002 Yes, I see that now. I've never used the pH meter to measure soaps, just my lotions, so I didn't read the calibration instructions thoroughly enough, I guess. I'll have to try it again to see if it makes a difference. Jen Re: Goat Milk PH > Jen > > > new batteries for my pH meter <g>). The pH meter was calibrated > with pH 4.0 > > and pH 7.0 buffer solutions and recalibrated between each test > solution. > > > > Soap # 1 9.6 goat milk > > Soap # 2 9.4 goat milk > > Soap # 3 9.4 goat milk > > Soap # 4 9.6 water > > Soap # 5 9.7 water > > Soap # 6 9.6 water > > The main problem with these results is the calibration of your pH > meter using buffers 7 and 4. You should have used 7 and 10 for > greater accuracy. I have known results be out by 0.5 to 1 pH unit > when calibrated incorrectly. > > Dave E > > > > > > > Post message: Cosmeticinfo > Subscribe: Cosmeticinfo-subscribe > Unsubscribe: Cosmeticinfo-unsubscribe > List owner: Cosmeticinfo-owner > URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Cosmeticinfo > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2002 Report Share Posted March 3, 2002 Hi Jen Can I suggest you also make a slightly higher dilution? I have to pH check my batches because it is part of my written method, and although I do it very roughly with very basic pH papers (it is a simple safety check, not an attempt to get an accurate result), I have noticed that the stronger the solution, the lower the result.... I believe that this is due to the sort of solution that soap makes in water, which is why putting pH paper on a wet bar can give a misleadingly low result. I use a 1% solution. Rose The London Soap Company > Yes, I see that now. I've never used the pH meter to measure soaps, just my > lotions, so I didn't read the calibration instructions thoroughly enough, I > guess. I'll have to try it again to see if it makes a difference. > Jen > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: " deastham2000 " <david@e...> > > > > The main problem with these results is the calibration of your pH > > meter using buffers 7 and 4. You should have used 7 and 10 for > > greater accuracy. I have known results be out by 0.5 to 1 pH unit > > when calibrated incorrectly. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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