Information, please? Hydrocodone - or am i on the wrong list?

February 21, 2003

Habituation is real, can't be reversed. I have

patients on high, I mean high dose, narcotics. I tell

them in a kind of tongue in cheek manner that if I

have a heart attack or crash in a car or whatever,

they are more or less screwed. Mainly because few if

any docs will give out adequate doses for pain

control. But, they all have jobs now, mainly because

of my meds so to say, so it isn't like any of them

want to quit the meds. So.... yep, it is real.

PJ

February 21, 2003

" S.W. (Ben) Sansing " wrote:

> This is my third or fourth attempt to get some simple answers to fairly

> (I thought) straightforward questions, concerning hydrocodone and other

> pain relievers (aka " pain killers " ).

Hi Ben

I've been away from the group for awhile, so I don't know what has and has not

been talked about

To me, your questions sound like they need to be answered by your physician. Can

you not go and see your family doctor and get your medical needs/questions

looked after? It has been my experience that a general practitioner can capably

look after something as basic as a hydrocodone script and the questions/concerns

that go with it.

YMMV

Lyndi

February 21, 2003

I have several thoughts on your questions. Is it because you were DUMPED by a

very unprofessional Doctor ? Who at worst could of at least spoken with you

in a more professional manner and suggested gradual detox. There is another

thought ..I don't know how much your read papers, magazines or watch or

listen to other forms of media but there is a big CRUNCH on prescribed drugs.

The DEA is clamping down on the Doctors who prescribe the drugs for too long.

The " big bad guys in the DEA cannot seem to get the DRUG problems in our

country under control ( why can't they..perhaps it is because they are on the

take themselves?) So guess what now they are making it very public that they

are getting tough...(lol) so the guy that gets it is mr and mrs Q.

Public. The skinny I get is that the Pharmaceutical folks, Pain Mgmt.

doctors and the Patients are all getting it in the old pocketbook.

Also they are going after the Doctors by raising their liability insurance.

They are tightening up on the Pharmacies by watching each and every Filling

prescriptions. This sounds heavy but it is so apparent if you stop and think

about it. I guess in this country and especially some places where there are

any drug related deaths( some guy in east Hoboken Texas is so stupid to break

up the capsules or break up the pill and shoots it, snorts it etc and already

has cardiovascular problems. DIES.

As far as pain meds especially Vicodin( Hydrocodone) Codeine, etc. that

Doctors rely upon for pain. Now if you start getting all panicy about losing

your meds it does sound to some Doctors that you could be a drug seeker.

Don't make waves too much. Learn about your condition and that helps but

that too might help you be willing to try other mediums of pain relief.

Acupuncture, Hypnotism, massage, Eastern medicine. I have a Spinal Cord

Stimulator in my back. I have had several discs collapse on me and had

surgeries, I have degenerative discogenic disease. There is also spinal

stenosis present, narrowing of the spinal area that all the nerves emanate

from. Also I am stuck with a Periformis Syndrome, where the muscle passes

through the sciatica and continues to cause pain and irritation. I am now

attempting to lose about 50-60 lbs. So far 26 lbs in a Month, but I am up

and walking 45-50 minutes each day at least 5 times a week. The weight loss

is helping.

I joined a Hospital weight loss program. Medically supervised.

I don't mean to ramble but I hope some of this is food for thought for you.

And lastly, emotions, stress, anxiety,and fear all can contribute to

increasing the pain. Get a good Psychotherapist, that has helped me

tremendously.

Hang in there and get educated in the affairs of your problem and what YOU

can do about it. Education and knowledge give you power.

Sincerely, Alice

February 22, 2003

Hi Ben,

This is just my experience......

> ****Is " habituation " (where you have to take more and more of the med to

> achieve the same level or relief) REAL, when the drug is being used for

> chronic pain relief, or not?

Every person is different and their reaction to medication varies.

I have been taking the same medication for a long time. There are days when

I might have to take a little more to help with the pain.

Pain varies from day to day. Depending on what I'm doing and my energy

level.

I have tried most of the pain medication that's available at one time or

another. Right now I am thinking about changing over to some-

thing else. My relationship with my pain doctor is such that I am able to do

this without a problem. If I go completely off pain medication I do have

" withdrawal " effects. This is simply because my body is used to something

it's not getting. I have done this in the past to give my body a rest and

also to get a real look at what my body is doing.

*****If habituation is real, how can it be reversed?

I have gone back on medication that I have previously used to see if I can

tolerate it or that it helps the pain. Sometimes it has worked. In my

experience when I stop using a medication and then try it again some time

later the results have been good.

***We're not scheduled for another appointment with the pain

doc, but I DO need to write a letter detailing my current condition,

With my pain doctor he always asks how the regime of medication is working

for me.

If changes need to be made, they are. Are you concerned that they will not

give you the pain medication? It seems that if you are seeing a pain doctor

and the meds you're taking are working for you, that he will continue them.

Of course, we all know that things can change drastically with our doctors.

I don't know if this has helped you answer some of your questions, but I gave

it a try.

Kathleen in Calif.

February 22, 2003

In a message dated 2/22/03 2:18:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,

clake@... writes:

>

> I used to take hydrocodone for about 3 months for pain in my low

> back and abdomen. It worked great for about 3 hours, but would

> never last as long as the 4-6 that it says. Then after about a

> month or so, it stopped working less and less. After only 3 months

> use, I can take the same dosage and have absolutely NO RELIEF of

> pain. It didn't really control my pain to begin with, so that might

> be part of the problem. I do think as time goes on, your body

> becomes more and more tolerant to opiods and higher dosages are

> necessary to relieve the same pain.

>

I've found the same as you have. I believe that after awhile your body gets

used to the medication. And when it does work it is only for 3-4 hours like

you said. I've been fighting Sciatica for almost 6 months now. Some days

are real painful and others not so much. So on the days I'm not in alot of

pain I'll take advil for that day.

Just my 2 cents.

Hope everyone has a pain free weekend if possible.

Sandy

February 22, 2003

Is " habituation " (where you have to take more and more of the med to

achieve the same level or relief) REAL, when the drug is being used

for chronic pain relief, or not? [i have been taking basically the

same dosage since July, with the same general effectiveness, but

sometimes have to take more due to extra pain... I worry

about " habituation " at times but it could simply be that I am in

MORE pain these days than I was??? How does this work for you?

Anyone?

I used to take hydrocodone for about 3 months for pain in my low

back and abdomen. It worked great for about 3 hours, but would

never last as long as the 4-6 that it says. Then after about a

month or so, it stopped working less and less. After only 3 months

use, I can take the same dosage and have absolutely NO RELIEF of

pain. It didn't really control my pain to begin with, so that might

be part of the problem. I do think as time goes on, your body

becomes more and more tolerant to opiods and higher dosages are

necessary to relieve the same pain.

2 If habituation is real, how can it be reversed? Obviously, " just

stop taking it for a while " is not an option, unless there is another

med I can take that would also relieve pain but not CROSS-habituate.

Is there such a thing? Does taking one type of narcotic pain

relievers (hydrocodone, for instance) lead to increased tolerance

for another (oxycodone, say)? A friend with MS once told me his docs

would switch him off between oxycodone and something else

(hydrocodone? morphine? I dunno, he was in LOTS of pain) so he

wouldn't develop a tolerance for one or the other. But Roy is/was

kind of a BS artist so I never knew if this was true. I am thinking

of asking the doc for some kind of alternate med to " switch off

with " , if it would work, but would it? If so, what would be good?

Currently, I'm using Duragesic 75 and taking 100mg of ultram for

breakthrough pain. For the most part this works for me. I've heard

many people using two different types of opiods to manage their

pain. I'm not really sure the body becomes less tolarant once the

opoids are stopped, or even how long it takes.

Ben, I hope this information helps in some way. There are a couple

of websites I've been to that seem to be fairly helpful: Pain.com

and Sorcep.com

God Bless,

February 22, 2003

Alice,

I have tried several times to reply to your accusatons, or whatever

they are in your message. I have had to kill several messages,

including some rather long ones. I really do not know what to say.

Let me try this - yes, my old doctor was unprofessional. he was also

incompetent, and would make a good " poster child " for the reasons

malpractice insurance is so high. This genius studied my x-rays from a

few years ago, noted all the compressed and bulged disks and other

damage and concluded I had fibromyalgia.

His " treatments " over the

years consisted of referring me to chiropractors, other " alternative

therapists " , psychiatrists (it's " all in my head " , the pain isn't real,

I am " just faking " or whatever), plus trigger point shots of cortisone

and/or saline, and other weirdness.

Through it all, whenever I would

request any kind of prescription pain reliever he'd get all big-eyed,

insist that " that's what we give TERMINAL cancer patients " (even

Celebrex, Ultram, stuff like that) and refuse on the grounds I'd " get

addicted to it " .

Finally, when the pain got very very bad last year he

relented and gave me a prescription for hydrocodone, but almost

immediately changed his mind, and got all freaky when i later requested

a refill.

Turns out, he'd just been to some " court proceedings "

involving " a doctor " who'd gotten in trouble for overprescribing

narcotics. Some stuff I've heard since then suggests the doctor was

him, and the 'scrips were for his own use.

But no matter, when push

finally came to shove and I " forced the issue " with my letter he

responded by declaring me an " obvious drug addict " and to get another

doctor - which i did, and lucked into a wonderful woman who is one of

the best in this part of the country, an internal medecine specialist

who also does some GP work.

She, after swiftly running me through some

tests, diagnosing me with poly-myalgia rheumatica as well as assorted

spinal problems, referred me to a neurologist, an opthamologist (for

biopsy testing of a potential temporal artery problem that might lead

to sudden, irreversible blindness) and this pain doctor, who is

WONDERFUL and very compassionate - I actually broke down and cried in

his office on the first visit, so relieved to be treated like a person

with legitimate pain and suffering who needed medical help! And so it

goes.

The thing with sending the letter (to the new doc) is, I realize

now, a result of my miscommunication with my wife and the doc's office

- my short-term memory is very bad these days, sorry - but I intend to

call the doc on Monday and find out exactly what i *am* supposed to do.

beyond that - all I can tell you is my old mantra, that used to keep me

halfway together when dealing with the old doctor and some of his

" specialist " buddies - " I am not a criminal. I am not a drug addict. I

have done nothing wrong " . But if you wish to continue to believe I am,

that's not my problem.

And if i have misread your post and am

" kneejerking " , then I apologize to you. I tend to get defensive

sometimes. I am still very " gun-shy " , and not entirely sure these new

doctors are really trying to help me, or maybe I'll wake up one day and

be back being treated like dirt.

Ben

February 25, 2003

> In a message dated 2/22/03 2:18:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> clake@a... writes:

>

> >

> > I used to take hydrocodone for about 3 months for pain in my low

> > back and abdomen. It worked great for about 3 hours, but would

> > never last as long as the 4-6 that it says. Then after about a

> > month or so, it stopped working less and less. After only 3 months

> > use, I can take the same dosage and have absolutely NO RELIEF of

> > pain. It didn't really control my pain to begin with, so that might

> > be part of the problem. I do think as time goes on, your body

> > becomes more and more tolerant to opiods and higher dosages are

> > necessary to relieve the same pain.

> >

>

> I've found the same as you have. I believe that after awhile your body gets

> used to the medication. And when it does work it is only for 3-4 hours like

> you said. I've been fighting Sciatica for almost 6 months now. Some days

> are real painful and others not so much. So on the days I'm not in alot of

> pain I'll take advil for that day.

>

> Just my 2 cents.

>

> Hope everyone has a pain free weekend if possible.

>

> Sandy

>

February 25, 2003