new topic: Serpula lacrymans

November 20, 2010

,While the air inside a remediated area can be filled with billions of spores, our viable air sample tests for Serpula lacrymans doesn’t seem to be an issue. Burining of PPE seems extreme. Moffett From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of ArmourSent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 8:27 AMTo: iequality Subject: new topic: Serpula lacrymans I just met a colleague from Scotland (yes, the " other side of the pond in Great Britain " Scotland) thru a contact here; they asked me to help provide reliable info on mold remediation and health hazards (they saw my name on the S520 and the NYC guidelines so they consider me an expert or something! go figure)They asked about differences between dry rot and wet rot. This led to me learning their definition of dry rot is the infestation of Serpula lacrymans. They call it " dry rot " , it's like the official term in their building industry, both contractors and government inspectors; I understand it's a big problem over there. Recall, this is the really long stuff that roots in the soil under the house for it's water source and then grows upward and eats the wood.I know CA has had a bunch of this. We don't really see it here in Ohio. In Scotland, they remediate using stringent asbestos style containment because they are so worried about spores being spread around; they even burn coveralls! But, it's based solely on the regrowth threat, not a health hazard. Any one have Serpula experience that would help me address this? Is this reasonable or not? thanx. Armour

November 20, 2010

One of the UK's largest and professional contractors have an interesting web page and info on dry rot please see following links

Regards

Jeff Charlton

London

http://www.rentokil.co.uk/residential-customers/property-care/rot/dry-rot/index.html?gclid=CIvAoN7tsKUCFUEf4QodZ2urZA

http://www.rentokil.co.uk/files/file_293621.pdf

-----Original Message-----From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]On Behalf Of Pat MoffettSent: 20 November 2010 18:27To: iequality Subject: RE: new topic: Serpula lacrymans

,

While the air inside a remediated area can be filled with billions of spores, our viable air sample tests for Serpula lacrymans doesn’t seem to be an issue. Burining of PPE seems extreme.

Moffett

From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On Behalf Of ArmourSent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 8:27 AMTo: iequality Subject: new topic: Serpula lacrymans

I just met a colleague from Scotland (yes, the "other side of the pond in Great Britain" Scotland) thru a contact here; they asked me to help provide reliable info on mold remediation and health hazards (they saw my name on the S520 and the NYC guidelines so they consider me an expert or something! go figure)

They asked about differences between dry rot and wet rot. This led to me learning their definition of dry rot is the infestation of Serpula lacrymans. They call it "dry rot", it's like the official term in their building industry, both contractors and government inspectors; I understand it's a big problem over there.

Recall, this is the really long stuff that roots in the soil under the house for it's water source and then grows upward and eats the wood.I know CA has had a bunch of this. We don't really see it here in Ohio.

In Scotland, they remediate using stringent asbestos style containment because they are so worried about spores being spread around; they even burn coveralls! But, it's based solely on the regrowth threat, not a health hazard.

Any one have Serpula experience that would help me address this? Is this reasonable or not?

thanx.

Armour

November 20, 2010

Ole,

I agree that culturable sampling for Serp is unnecessary and it is a poor

use of the client's money. However, when the situation represents itself as

a legal case in the US, the goal in sampling is not to find Serp is a viable

organism in air. Meaning, ruling it out as being viable was the intent the

sampling hypothesis was based on.

Moffett

new topic: Serpula lacrymans

I just met a colleague from Scotland (yes, the " other side of the pond in

Great Britain " Scotland) thru a contact here; they asked me to help provide

reliable info on mold remediation and health hazards (they saw my name on

the S520 and the NYC guidelines so they consider me an expert or something!

go figure)

They asked about differences between dry rot and wet rot. This led to me

learning their definition of dry rot is the infestation of Serpula

lacrymans. They call it " dry rot " , it's like the official term in their

building industry, both contractors and government inspectors; I understand

it's a big problem over there.

Recall, this is the really long stuff that roots in the soil under the house

for it's water source and then grows upward and eats the wood.I know CA has

had a bunch of this. We don't really see it here in Ohio.

In Scotland, they remediate using stringent asbestos style containment

because they are so worried about spores being spread around; they even

burn coveralls! But, it's based solely on the regrowth threat, not a health

hazard.

Any one have Serpula experience that would help me address this? Is this

reasonable or not?

thanx.

Armour

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November 21, 2010

Out here on the West coast we see some "Poria" that sounds very much like Serpula lacrymans from Europe. Here is an article that describes the "house eating fungus"

http://cecontracosta.ucdavis.edu/files/33950.pdf

Here is a good article on Serpula lacrymans http://www.arcchip.cz/w08/w08_palfreyman2.pdf

Brad Deal

new topic: Serpula lacrymans

I just met a colleague from Scotland (yes, the "other side of the pond in Great Britain" Scotland) thru a contact here; they asked me to help provide reliable info on mold remediation and health hazards (they saw my name on the S520 and the NYC guidelines so they consider me an expert or something! go figure)

They asked about differences between dry rot and wet rot. This led to me learning their definition of dry rot is the infestation of Serpula lacrymans. They call it "dry rot", it's like the official term in their building industry, both contractors and government inspectors; I understand it's a big problem over there.

Recall, this is the really long stuff that roots in the soil under the house for it's water source and then grows upward and eats the wood.I know CA has had a bunch of this. We don't really see it here in Ohio.

In Scotland, they remediate using stringent asbestos style containment because they are so worried about spores being spread around; they even burn coveralls! But, it's based solely on the regrowth threat, not a health hazard.

Any one have Serpula experience that would help me address this? Is this reasonable or not?

thanx.

Armour

November 21, 2010

I have question or two on the forgoing comments and information.

If the spores are omnipresent and ubiquitous, why do people treat dry rot as some infectious material if it solely depends on environmental conditions?

I have seen contractors "SAY" that dry rot is infectious to justify large bills and say they wrap the contamination to stop it infecting other substrates but , if the hyphae remains it will grow and if it is removed it won't???

After removal contractors often apply liberal quantities of toxic chemicals too but it seems drying out is all that is necessary???

If we cannot see the hyphae am I to assume spore testing is not a recommended option as the spores are "omnipresent, just like aspergillus?

If this is the case the only way to inspect a home for dry rot is to rip it apart???

Regards

Jeff Charlton

London

If the -----Original Message-----From: iequality [mailto:iequality ]On Behalf Of Pat MoffettSent: 21 November 2010 04:33To: iequality Subject: RE: RE: new topic: Serpula lacrymans

Ole,I agree that culturable sampling for Serp is unnecessary and it is a pooruse of the client's money. However, when the situation represents itself asa legal case in the US, the goal in sampling is not to find Serp is a viableorganism in air. Meaning, ruling it out as being viable was the intent thesampling hypothesis was based on. Moffett-----Original Message-----From: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On BehalfOf Ole CarlsonSent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:55 PMTo: iequality Subject: SV: RE: new topic: Serpula lacrymansTo worry about spores from Serp lac beeing able to infest other areas is notat all nescesserry. These spores are omnipresent.The hypha is another story....Does not sound like these guys know a lot about these issues even if theyare from Scotland.....And to do viable air sample tests for Serp lac ?? is definetly wasted money.....this organism is a really picky guy when it comes to nutrition, waterability and temperature.Here in Norway you almost exclusivly find them in specific buildings thathave the right conditions (mostly brick buildings built between 1890 -1910).Med vennlig hilsenOle Carlson, Mycoteam asoec@...Mob: 952 38 931Sendt fra min HTC________________________________Fra: Pat Moffett Sendt: 20. november 2010 20:34Til: iequality <iequality >Emne: RE: new topic: Serpula lacrymans,While the air inside a remediated area can be filled with billions ofspores, our viable air sample tests for Serpula lacrymans doesn't seem to bean issue. Burining of PPE seems extreme. MoffettFrom: iequality [mailto:iequality ] On BehalfOf ArmourSent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 8:27 AMTo: iequality Subject: new topic: Serpula lacrymansI just met a colleague from Scotland (yes, the "other side of the pond inGreat Britain" Scotland) thru a contact here; they asked me to help providereliable info on mold remediation and health hazards (they saw my name onthe S520 and the NYC guidelines so they consider me an expert or something!go figure)They asked about differences between dry rot and wet rot. This led to melearning their definition of dry rot is the infestation of Serpulalacrymans. They call it "dry rot", it's like the official term in theirbuilding industry, both contractors and government inspectors; I understandit's a big problem over there.Recall, this is the really long stuff that roots in the soil under the housefor it's water source and then grows upward and eats the wood.I know CA hashad a bunch of this. We don't really see it here in Ohio.In Scotland, they remediate using stringent asbestos style containmentbecause they are so worried about spores being spread around; they evenburn coveralls! But, it's based solely on the regrowth threat, not a healthhazard.Any one have Serpula experience that would help me address this? Is thisreasonable or not?thanx. Armour------------------------------------FAIR USE NOTICE:This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always beenspecifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such materialavailable in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental,political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justiceissues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any suchcopyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law.In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site isdistributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest inreceiving the included information for research and educational purposes.For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml.If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of yourown that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyrightowner.

November 23, 2010

Why does one care if spores are viable or not. the poria and serpula grow because of moisture and nutrients in an area of soil under or near the home allow it. (e.g., bulldozed trees buried under housing developments after clearning instead of removal)

The presence of the spore means nothing, especially when one considers the volume of spores produced when they actually do sporulate - just see the layers on contents and surfaces inside cavities.

If simple drying to reasonable levels eliminates/kills the growth, this seems like an easy problem to solve. The structural damage may be difficult and expensive to repair, but the fungal contamination and preventioin and remediation seems straightforward.

I'm still trying to figure why the asbestos style containment is necessary. I understand the particulate control and safety measures. Do they just end up so similar that it's reasonable and efficient to spec it as 'full' containment with neg air, etc.

Armour

November 24, 2010

Armour:

1. The spores require moisture. But if they germinate (on wood - or

stored paper or cardboard), that can create a hyphael highway from the water

source to elsewhere to feast upon wood.

2. Serpula lacrymans is also know to grow on mortar.

3. rate of spread

Winter 2.25 mm/day (0.75 m/yr)

In the Lab 4 m/year

Optimum temp 22C

Rapid growth as low as 5C

No apparent growth at 0C

No growth above 26C (it is apparently very heat sensitive)

4. And now a short story:

In 1812 the botanist Sowerby was asked to inspect the Queen Charlotte.

This ship, a 110 gun ship, was launched in 1810. It rotted so quickly that

is was necessary to rebuild the ship before she could be commissioned. The

cause - Boletus lacrymans (an early name for Serpula lacrymans).

So it is apparently the speed of growth combined with " infrequent " ability

to transport water elsewhere that makes this fungus (a basidiomycete) so

infamous.

Ref:

Coggins: Decay of Timber in Buildings, Dry Rot, Wet Rot and other Fungi.

Rentokil Ltd, 1980.

5. As for:

Doing viable air sample tests for Serp lac

Response:

Hah, hah, hah. (no offense Pat)

I'd like to see someone that can consistently get basidiomycetes to grow and

fruit in the lab.

This could actually be a nice application for PCR (if one could correlate

it).

6. I have seen it in older buildings and even once growing as

stalactites in a basement room (incredible image.

Tony

.......................................................................

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November 24, 2010

Tony,You have spoken correctly. Serpula nearly bankrupted the British Navy.Serpula DOES exist in North America, However, I have only seen Poria in the west. I have seen Serpula once in Chicago and a few times in Canada.It is well called "lacrymans" because it "tears" and exudes water from the wood it is devouring. This is why it is called "dry rot", it sucks the water out of the wood and leaves a checkered pattern of dusty wood/cellulose.The hyphae search for wetted wood and can travel many, many feet in search of it, even over completelydry substrate. That is why it is so pernicious. When you see it rotting wood the hyphal strands may be many feet away. You must break the connection at the ground.Make sure no soil is touching the wood of the house.This mushroom rotter is well known in Europe as has been stated already.If memory serves, I believe that Serpula lacrymans has been observed VERY rarely in nature (one report in from China/Tibet? that I remember). It is common in buildings, especially in Europe.Odd that we see this thing so intimately associated with build items and not in nature. Shane

Armour:

1. The spores require moisture. But if they germinate (on wood - or

stored paper or cardboard), that can create a hyphael highway from the water

source to elsewhere to feast upon wood.

2. Serpula lacrymans is also know to grow on mortar.

3. rate of spread

Winter 2.25 mm/day (0.75 m/yr)

In the Lab 4 m/year

Optimum temp 22C

Rapid growth as low as 5C

No apparent growth at 0C

No growth above 26C (it is apparently very heat sensitive)

4. And now a short story:

In 1812 the botanist Sowerby was asked to inspect the Queen Charlotte.

This ship, a 110 gun ship, was launched in 1810. It rotted so quickly that

is was necessary to rebuild the ship before she could be commissioned. The

cause - Boletus lacrymans (an early name for Serpula lacrymans).

So it is apparently the speed of growth combined with "infrequent" ability

to transport water elsewhere that makes this fungus (a basidiomycete) so

infamous.

Ref:

Coggins: Decay of Timber in Buildings, Dry Rot, Wet Rot and other Fungi.

Rentokil Ltd, 1980.

5. As for:

Doing viable air sample tests for Serp lac

Response:

Hah, hah, hah. (no offense Pat)

I'd like to see someone that can consistently get basidiomycetes to grow and

fruit in the lab.

This could actually be a nice application for PCR (if one could correlate

it).

6. I have seen it in older buildings and even once growing as

stalactites in a basement room (incredible image.

Tony

.......................................................................

"Tony" Havics, CHMM, CIH, PE