Re: face-lifts, thought-lifts, etc.

[Guest guest]

Dear Family,

Hi from Nosy Carol! Every once in awhile I come back to LWI to see what

everybody's doing (undoing). Having had and worked through issues with 's

face-lift myself back when it happened in 2002, I loved skimming these posts to

see what I've got left regarding that and other " gooroos should be perfect

according to me " stories.

Jan wrote,

>>When all is said and done...I simply can't reconcile a teacher that

talks about loving what is....loving her body if her arms and legs

were chopped off....telling a morbidly obese man that his body was

lovable just the way it was...then getting a face lift...not workin'

for me Tom. getting a face lift, shooting people from a tower, being

a pedophile - stressful ways to get love for me.<<

What I remember about and the obese man (in NY last year) was that she

said he was perfect as is...and that she didn't tell him NOT to go on a diet.

What I remember about discussing her face-lift was that people said to

her, " I thought you were beautiful before, " and she agreed with them.

What I know about being on Weight Watchers right now is that for the first time

in my life, I am dieting because it pleases me, and not because I think I am a

fat ugly slob. I like the way it feels to eat differently. I like the way my

clothes fit. And, a first, I REALLY liked who I saw in the mirror two weeks ago

before I made the decision to join WW (or before the opportunity arose and the

decision was made, if ya wanna be cosmic about it). So it is from this

perspective that I think I understand where comes from (and I can never

really understand it). What I know is that she definitely did it for me. When

she does or says something that upsets me, it is totally for me...my " medicine. "

It brings me back to The Work.

It's always only ever about me.

Love,

Carol

P.S. My former teacher, not one of the " boys from India " but one of the girls

from there, had cosmetic surgery and it was supposed to be a big secret. To me

that was problematical -- not simply that my " renunciant " guru had work done but

that she wasn't forthcoming about it, among other things. How do I react when I

think these thoughts? Eventually, I left her...which was perfect, actually. I

have a friend who is still in that group, totally devoted and yet not at all in

denial about the stuff (much of it illegal, " immoral, " etc.) that goes on there.

She tells me, " I don't care what she (my former guru) does. " That is

integrity...for her. For me it would not be. Jan, nne, et. al., I really

appreciate your work on this stuff. It just continues to drive home to me that

my " world " is never the same as anyone else's, and we're all in the right.

[Guest guest]

Carol,

This is all more validation for me that there are an awfully lot of insecure

people out there who need gurus in their lives to tell them what to think

and what to feel. These same people get terribly upset when their chosen

guru does not live up to their expectations--they then move to a new one and

repeat the cycle of worship/condemn.

There is an innate wisdom in us all that could give us all the direction we

need--it can't be heard over the noise of " worshipping another " however.

Sincerely,

Eddie

>From: Sput6@...

>Reply-To: Loving-what-is

>To: loving-what-is

>Subject: re: face-lifts, thought-lifts, etc.

>Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 14:44:05 -0400

>

>Dear Family,

>

>Hi from Nosy Carol! Every once in awhile I come back to LWI to see what

>everybody's doing (undoing). Having had and worked through issues with

>'s face-lift myself back when it happened in 2002, I loved skimming

>these posts to see what I've got left regarding that and other " gooroos

>should be perfect according to me " stories.

>

>Jan wrote,

>

> >>When all is said and done...I simply can't reconcile a teacher that

>talks about loving what is....loving her body if her arms and legs

>were chopped off....telling a morbidly obese man that his body was

>lovable just the way it was...then getting a face lift...not workin'

>for me Tom. getting a face lift, shooting people from a tower, being

>a pedophile - stressful ways to get love for me.<<

>

>What I remember about and the obese man (in NY last year) was that

>she said he was perfect as is...and that she didn't tell him NOT to go on a

>diet.

>

>What I remember about discussing her face-lift was that people said

>to her, " I thought you were beautiful before, " and she agreed with them.

>

>What I know about being on Weight Watchers right now is that for the first

>time in my life, I am dieting because it pleases me, and not because I

>think I am a fat ugly slob. I like the way it feels to eat differently. I

>like the way my clothes fit. And, a first, I REALLY liked who I saw in the

>mirror two weeks ago before I made the decision to join WW (or before the

>opportunity arose and the decision was made, if ya wanna be cosmic about

>it). So it is from this perspective that I think I understand where

>comes from (and I can never really understand it). What I know is that she

>definitely did it for me. When she does or says something that upsets me,

>it is totally for me...my " medicine. " It brings me back to The Work.

>It's always only ever about me.

>

>Love,

>Carol

>

>P.S. My former teacher, not one of the " boys from India " but one of the

>girls from there, had cosmetic surgery and it was supposed to be a big

>secret. To me that was problematical -- not simply that my " renunciant "

>guru had work done but that she wasn't forthcoming about it, among other

>things. How do I react when I think these thoughts? Eventually, I left

>her...which was perfect, actually. I have a friend who is still in that

>group, totally devoted and yet not at all in denial about the stuff (much

>of it illegal, " immoral, " etc.) that goes on there. She tells me, " I don't

>care what she (my former guru) does. " That is integrity...for her. For me

>it would not be. Jan, nne, et. al., I really appreciate your work on

>this stuff. It just continues to drive home to me that my " world " is never

>the same as anyone else's, and we're all in the right.

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

> This is all more validation for me that there are an awfully lot of

> insecure

> people out there who need gurus in their lives to tell them what to

> think

> and what to feel. These same people get terribly upset when their

> chosen

> guru does not live up to their expectations--they then move to a new

> one and

> repeat the cycle of worship/condemn.

we need to be vigilant not to project our own shadow side onto them and

demonize them, seeing them as the enemy. We must avoid being

condescending or patronizing. I see them as extremely fearful people,

desperately searching for security in a rapidly-changing world, who

need our love and compassion, while we, at the same time, effectively

interrupt their tactic

[Guest guest]

we are all in the right ... some of us stick by don ' t even go there !

> Dear Family,

>

> Hi from Nosy Carol! Every once in awhile I come back to LWI to see

> what everybody's doing (undoing). Having had and worked through

> issues with 's face-lift myself back when it happened in 2002, I

> loved skimming these posts to see what I've got left regarding that

> and other " gooroos should be perfect according to me " stories.

>

> Jan wrote,

>

>>> When all is said and done...I simply can't reconcile a teacher that

> talks about loving what is....loving her body if her arms and legs

> were chopped off....telling a morbidly obese man that his body was

> lovable just the way it was...then getting a face lift...not workin'

> for me Tom. getting a face lift, shooting people from a tower, being

> a pedophile - stressful ways to get love for me.<<

>

> What I remember about and the obese man (in NY last year) was

> that she said he was perfect as is...and that she didn't tell him NOT

> to go on a diet.

>

> What I remember about discussing her face-lift was that people

> said to her, " I thought you were beautiful before, " and she agreed

> with them.

>

> What I know about being on Weight Watchers right now is that for the

> first time in my life, I am dieting because it pleases me, and not

> because I think I am a fat ugly slob. I like the way it feels to eat

> differently. I like the way my clothes fit. And, a first, I REALLY

> liked who I saw in the mirror two weeks ago before I made the decision

> to join WW (or before the opportunity arose and the decision was made,

> if ya wanna be cosmic about it). So it is from this perspective that

> I think I understand where comes from (and I can never really

> understand it). What I know is that she definitely did it for me.

> When she does or says something that upsets me, it is totally for

> me...my " medicine. " It brings me back to The Work.

> It's always only ever about me.

>

> Love,

> Carol

>

> P.S. My former teacher, not one of the " boys from India " but one of

> the girls from there, had cosmetic surgery and it was supposed to be a

> big secret. To me that was problematical -- not simply that my

> " renunciant " guru had work done but that she wasn't forthcoming about

> it, among other things. How do I react when I think these thoughts?

> Eventually, I left her...which was perfect, actually. I have a friend

> who is still in that group, totally devoted and yet not at all in

> denial about the stuff (much of it illegal, " immoral, " etc.) that goes

> on there. She tells me, " I don't care what she (my former guru)

> does. " That is integrity...for her. For me it would not be. Jan,

> nne, et. al., I really appreciate your work on this stuff. It

> just continues to drive home to me that my " world " is never the same

> as anyone else's, and we're all in the right.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Begin forwarded message:

>

> Date: Mon Apr 5, 2004 10:50:39 PM US/Central

> To: Loving-what-is

> Subject: Re: re: face-lifts, thought-lifts, etc.

>

>

>

>

>> This is all more validation for me that there are an awfully lot of

>> insecure

>> people out there who need gurus in their lives to tell them what to

>> think

>> and what to feel. These same people get terribly upset when their

>> chosen

>> guru does not live up to their expectations--they then move to a new

>> one and

>> repeat the cycle of worship/condemn.

>

> we need to be vigilant not to project our own shadow side onto them

> and demonize them, seeing them as the enemy. We must avoid being

> condescending or patronizing. I see them as extremely fearful people,

> desperately searching for security in a rapidly-changing world, who

> need our love and compassion, while we, at the same time, effectively

> interrupt their tactic

[Guest guest]

Hi Eddie, very nice to catch a glimpse of you again!

> there are an awfully lot of insecure

> people out there who need gurus in their lives to tell them what to

think

> and what to feel.

For me this discussion, which I'm following quite closely, (thank you

for fuelling it, Jan!), is not so much about needing my guru to tell

me what to think and what to feel, but about inquiring into that

need: to explore this need into all its nooks and crannies.

I had the impression the same was true for Jan, and for many others

taking part in this discussion. Which, in my view, is a brave thing

to do, not something for the fainthearted.

Projecting my story onto others, of course.

Could it be that the perception of " awfully insecure people needing a

guru " is making you feel uncomfortable? If so, would you be

interested to inquire into that thought?

Since I can find that thought in myself, I inquired into it.

" People need a guru to tell them what to do. This means they are

awfully insecure. "

1. Is it true?

Seems like it to me.

2. Can I absolutely know?

No.

3. What's the reaction to this thought?

I look down on people who are insecure, I feel better about myself

whenever I think I'm finding my own truth, struggling, not relying on

anyone, not blindly following someone. I make it a habit not to trust

anyone, just in case I'd be fooled. Yes, I'm afraid I'll be fooled,

to look stupid in front of others, they'd think how stupid I am to

naively believe someone! No, no, they won't catch me doing that! Wary

of any belief system, proud to be self-reliant. And then I also feel

lonely and separate. I don't trust myself. I'm wary of my own

behavior, my own thoughts... imagine they'd drift into believing

someone without questioning it. Feels so cowardly, and I'm afraid to

look like a coward. How cowardly of me...

4. What's without the thought?

I'd see people trying to understand what a belief system is about if

the guru is doing something they didn't expect him or her to do.

Turnarounds:

" I am awfully insecure " Sure, it happens!

" People don't need a guru to tell them what to do. " Questioning the

guru's behavior seems like a way to not let the guru tell them what

to do.

" I need a guru to tell me what to do " Yes, my unquestioned thoughts

are the guru I cling to. I turn to them to tell me what to do. And it

means I am insecure.

Thank you for providing this opportunity, Eddie.

Eva

[Guest guest]

Eva,

Correction: I didn't say " awfully insecure " I said " awfully lot " The former

was your perception.

Eddie

>

>Reply-To: Loving-what-is

>To: Loving-what-is

>Subject: Re: face-lifts, thought-lifts, etc.

>Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 07:42:31 -0000

>

>Hi Eddie, very nice to catch a glimpse of you again!

>

> > there are an awfully lot of insecure

> > people out there who need gurus in their lives to tell them what to

>think

> > and what to feel.

>

>For me this discussion, which I'm following quite closely, (thank you

>for fuelling it, Jan!), is not so much about needing my guru to tell

>me what to think and what to feel, but about inquiring into that

>need: to explore this need into all its nooks and crannies.

>I had the impression the same was true for Jan, and for many others

>taking part in this discussion. Which, in my view, is a brave thing

>to do, not something for the fainthearted.

>Projecting my story onto others, of course.

>

>Could it be that the perception of " awfully insecure people needing a

>guru " is making you feel uncomfortable? If so, would you be

>interested to inquire into that thought?

>

>Since I can find that thought in myself, I inquired into it.

>

> " People need a guru to tell them what to do. This means they are

>awfully insecure. "

>

>1. Is it true?

>Seems like it to me.

>2. Can I absolutely know?

>No.

>3. What's the reaction to this thought?

>I look down on people who are insecure, I feel better about myself

>whenever I think I'm finding my own truth, struggling, not relying on

>anyone, not blindly following someone. I make it a habit not to trust

>anyone, just in case I'd be fooled. Yes, I'm afraid I'll be fooled,

>to look stupid in front of others, they'd think how stupid I am to

>naively believe someone! No, no, they won't catch me doing that! Wary

>of any belief system, proud to be self-reliant. And then I also feel

>lonely and separate. I don't trust myself. I'm wary of my own

>behavior, my own thoughts... imagine they'd drift into believing

>someone without questioning it. Feels so cowardly, and I'm afraid to

>look like a coward. How cowardly of me...

>4. What's without the thought?

>I'd see people trying to understand what a belief system is about if

>the guru is doing something they didn't expect him or her to do.

>

>Turnarounds:

> " I am awfully insecure " Sure, it happens!

> " People don't need a guru to tell them what to do. " Questioning the

>guru's behavior seems like a way to not let the guru tell them what

>to do.

> " I need a guru to tell me what to do " Yes, my unquestioned thoughts

>are the guru I cling to. I turn to them to tell me what to do. And it

>means I am insecure.

>

>Thank you for providing this opportunity, Eddie.

>

>Eva

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

" Eva Lobach " wrote:

>

> For me this discussion, which I'm following quite closely, (thank you

> for fuelling it, Jan!), is not so much about needing my guru to tell

> me what to think and what to feel, but about inquiring into that

> need: to explore this need into all its nooks and crannies.

> I had the impression the same was true for Jan, and for many others

> taking part in this discussion. Which, in my view, is a brave thing

> to do, not something for the fainthearted.

> Projecting my story onto others, of course.

Thats my perception too Eva - I'm standing at the top of a little hill

and I've got my trusty sword in hand - rumor has it that if you meet

the Buddha the polite thing to do is to kill him....pretty violent

stuff...I think I'll just watch him drop off this mountain...

[Guest guest]

Yes, Eddie, you are awfully correct, I noticed my error only after I

posted my message, but I thought you'd get the drift of my message

anyhow. Now I will still not know if you did. And of course, whatever

your response, I will never know, anyhow...

Eva

> Eva,

> Correction: I didn't say " awfully insecure " I said " awfully lot "

The former

> was your perception.

> Eddie

>

>

> >From: " Eva Lobach " <e.lobach@c...>

> >Reply-To: Loving-what-is

> >To: Loving-what-is

> >Subject: Re: face-lifts, thought-lifts, etc.

> >Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 07:42:31 -0000

> >

> >Hi Eddie, very nice to catch a glimpse of you again!

> >

> > > there are an awfully lot of insecure

> > > people out there who need gurus in their lives to tell them

what to

> >think

> > > and what to feel.

> >

> >For me this discussion, which I'm following quite closely, (thank

you

> >for fuelling it, Jan!), is not so much about needing my guru to

tell

> >me what to think and what to feel, but about inquiring into that

> >need: to explore this need into all its nooks and crannies.

> >I had the impression the same was true for Jan, and for many others

> >taking part in this discussion. Which, in my view, is a brave thing

> >to do, not something for the fainthearted.

> >Projecting my story onto others, of course.

> >

> >Could it be that the perception of " awfully insecure people

needing a

> >guru " is making you feel uncomfortable? If so, would you be

> >interested to inquire into that thought?

> >

> >Since I can find that thought in myself, I inquired into it.

> >

> > " People need a guru to tell them what to do. This means they are

> >awfully insecure. "

> >

> >1. Is it true?

> >Seems like it to me.

> >2. Can I absolutely know?

> >No.

> >3. What's the reaction to this thought?

> >I look down on people who are insecure, I feel better about myself

> >whenever I think I'm finding my own truth, struggling, not relying

on

> >anyone, not blindly following someone. I make it a habit not to

trust

> >anyone, just in case I'd be fooled. Yes, I'm afraid I'll be fooled,

> >to look stupid in front of others, they'd think how stupid I am to

> >naively believe someone! No, no, they won't catch me doing that!

Wary

> >of any belief system, proud to be self-reliant. And then I also

feel

> >lonely and separate. I don't trust myself. I'm wary of my own

> >behavior, my own thoughts... imagine they'd drift into believing

> >someone without questioning it. Feels so cowardly, and I'm afraid

to

> >look like a coward. How cowardly of me...

> >4. What's without the thought?

> >I'd see people trying to understand what a belief system is about

if

> >the guru is doing something they didn't expect him or her to do.

> >

> >Turnarounds:

> > " I am awfully insecure " Sure, it happens!

> > " People don't need a guru to tell them what to do. " Questioning the

> >guru's behavior seems like a way to not let the guru tell them what

> >to do.

> > " I need a guru to tell me what to do " Yes, my unquestioned thoughts

> >are the guru I cling to. I turn to them to tell me what to do. And

it

> >means I am insecure.

> >

> >Thank you for providing this opportunity, Eddie.

> >

> >Eva

> >

> >

> >

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Tax headache? MSN Money provides relief with tax tips, tools, IRS

forms and

> more! http://moneycentral.msn.com/tax/workshop/welcome.asp

[Guest guest]

nothing wrong with seeking advice or help from anyone....it is a healthy

thing to do in my opinion