Re: Re: This made me sick !

[Guest guest]

At a guess these people would not say that the baby is a demon but that

demonic entities have caused the affliction known as autism. As a pastor

over some years who has an autistic daughter I must say that the view that

autism is because of demons is a poor twisting of scripture to say the least

due to some wrong beliefs taught about sin and sickness this view

permeates certain sectors of churches. This I can say: those peopel who

caused the child to die are answerable to God for their conduct as they have

in essence murdered a child. having only just looked at this as I was

browsing thru(as my wife answers most of these letters) I am unaware of

anything else that has been said in prior conversations on this matter so

will leave off for now.

-- Re: This made me sick !

> Someone tell me how and why this happened? Are there really

ignorant people

> that believe these babies are demons? I am actually sick to my

stomach right

> now.

>

> 's Mom

The entire mainstream understanding of demon posession is really

more offensive than what I understand about it. From my knowledge of

Scripture (and believe me, it's not that great) is the belief that

the earth and world were created perfect, without illness or death.

When the original sin from Adam and Eve occured, sickness and death

entered. So, when someone's body is sick or injured, saying that the

sick person has " an unclean spirit " is not necessarily stating that

a demon is posessing the body, but that the offending party--virus,

bacteria, immune response that damages the body, etc, is of unclean

origin. Essentially sickness is from evil, not that that particular

person, parents, etc caused it or had anything to do with it.

Answered prayer for healing could be as simple as an antibiotic

being discovered or beginning to work in the body, or as huge and a

spontaneous healing with no known reasoning.

I'm not trying to persuade or disuade anyone's opinions, just give

my understanding. Evil spirit beliefs (seemingly to me, anyway) have

been demonized (that is, the belief aspect), lol.

Debi

[Guest guest]

We are all God's children and I am truly hurt when people run around

telling me that I will be left on earth to burn in the apocalypse just

because I wasn't dunked under water and didn't say " Jesus is Lord " . I

am a very spiritual person and feel very close to God, as do many of my

Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu and Muslim friends. I prefer to believe that

there are good people and evil people of all faiths. The people who

murdered this poor little boy are evil and/or ignorant, regardless of

their faith. I spoke hastily when I suggested that all people who

believe in The Rapture are nut cases. I was just so angry about that

innocent little boy. Clearly, Debi, you are a good person and

definitely not a nut case. If any scenario on earth involved some sort

of choice being made as to who would survive and who would be left to

die, I have no doubt you would be among the survivors, but so would I

and all other good people. As long as we don't hurt each other I think

people should be free to follow their own spiritual path. I am secure

in the knowledge that God loves me and would not leave me behind to

perish in " fire and brimstone " . I am just happy that little boy is

free of his suffering, and I don't mean suffering from autism, I mean

torture at the the hands of his own family and church.

> Let me clarify, it won't be a worse place because all the believers

> are gone, because when it happens there will be converts, but

> because of all the bad things that will happen in the 7 yrs

> following, specifically 3 1/2 yrs after the Rapture. Of course,

> those who interpret Biblical prophecy could be wrong, but there are

> 70 prophecies about the coming of Jesus in the Old Testament, and

> none of them were wrong.

>

> Debi

>

>

>

> > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/25/national/main569963.shtml

> > > >

> > > >   Autistic Boy Dies During Exorcism

> > > >

> > > >   An autistic 8-year-old boy died while wrapped in sheets

> during

> > a

> > > > prayer

> > > > service held to exorcise the evil spirits that church members

> > blamed

> > > > for his

> > > > condition.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Someone tell me how and why this happened? Are there really

> > ignorant

> > > > people

> > > > that believe these babies are demons? I am actually sick to my

> > stomach

> > > > right

> > > > now.

> > > >

> > > > 's Mom

> > > >

> > > >

> _________________________________________________________________

> > > > Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection. 

> > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

> > > >

> > > >

> > > <image.tiff>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Autism_in_Girls-subscribe

> > > > ------------------------

> > > > Autism_in_Girls-unsubscribe

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

We are all God's children and I am truly hurt when people run around

telling me that I will be left on earth to burn in the apocalypse just

because I wasn't dunked under water and didn't say " Jesus is Lord " . I

am a very spiritual person and feel very close to God, as do many of my

Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu and Muslim friends. I prefer to believe that

there are good people and evil people of all faiths. The people who

murdered this poor little boy are evil and/or ignorant, regardless of

their faith. I spoke hastily when I suggested that all people who

believe in The Rapture are nut cases. I was just so angry about that

innocent little boy. Clearly, Debi, you are a good person and

definitely not a nut case. If any scenario on earth involved some sort

of choice being made as to who would survive and who would be left to

die, I have no doubt you would be among the survivors, but so would I

and all other good people. As long as we don't hurt each other I think

people should be free to follow their own spiritual path. I am secure

in the knowledge that God loves me and would not leave me behind to

perish in " fire and brimstone " . I am just happy that little boy is

free of his suffering, and I don't mean suffering from autism, I mean

torture at the the hands of his own family and church.

> Let me clarify, it won't be a worse place because all the believers

> are gone, because when it happens there will be converts, but

> because of all the bad things that will happen in the 7 yrs

> following, specifically 3 1/2 yrs after the Rapture. Of course,

> those who interpret Biblical prophecy could be wrong, but there are

> 70 prophecies about the coming of Jesus in the Old Testament, and

> none of them were wrong.

>

> Debi

>

>

>

> > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/25/national/main569963.shtml

> > > >

> > > >   Autistic Boy Dies During Exorcism

> > > >

> > > >   An autistic 8-year-old boy died while wrapped in sheets

> during

> > a

> > > > prayer

> > > > service held to exorcise the evil spirits that church members

> > blamed

> > > > for his

> > > > condition.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Someone tell me how and why this happened? Are there really

> > ignorant

> > > > people

> > > > that believe these babies are demons? I am actually sick to my

> > stomach

> > > > right

> > > > now.

> > > >

> > > > 's Mom

> > > >

> > > >

> _________________________________________________________________

> > > > Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection. 

> > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

> > > >

> > > >

> > > <image.tiff>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Autism_in_Girls-subscribe

> > > > ------------------------

> > > > Autism_in_Girls-unsubscribe

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

I must have missed some of this in my rush. there are many interpretations

of scripture out there......but me for one,. certainly do not look at " our'

kids and think of them as a punishment or an evil thing. I believe God can

heal.......if He so chooses, but we must remember He has a will, and He

works all things for good.......we don;t know what all the " good " is.......

but He does. I also beleive that He only gives these special kids to those

He knows can handle them.......even though there are days i sit and and

still ask " why me', i am glad Hannah is with me, and no other. she has such

a simplistic life...........she probably at this stage has no idea of what

evil is...maybe she will never understand. cherylS

-- Re: This made me sick !

> Someone tell me how and why this happened? Are there really

ignorant people

> that believe these babies are demons? I am actually sick to my

stomach right

> now.

>

> 's Mom

The entire mainstream understanding of demon posession is really

more offensive than what I understand about it. From my knowledge of

Scripture (and believe me, it's not that great) is the belief that

the earth and world were created perfect, without illness or death.

When the original sin from Adam and Eve occured, sickness and death

entered. So, when someone's body is sick or injured, saying that the

sick person has " an unclean spirit " is not necessarily stating that

a demon is posessing the body, but that the offending party--virus,

bacteria, immune response that damages the body, etc, is of unclean

origin. Essentially sickness is from evil, not that that particular

person, parents, etc caused it or had anything to do with it.

Answered prayer for healing could be as simple as an antibiotic

being discovered or beginning to work in the body, or as huge and a

spontaneous healing with no known reasoning.

I'm not trying to persuade or disuade anyone's opinions, just give

my understanding. Evil spirit beliefs (seemingly to me, anyway) have

been demonized (that is, the belief aspect), lol.

Debi

[Guest guest]

This was written by my husband, Mark......first time he has ever contributed

anything to this list...........haha, cherylS

-- Re: This made me sick !

> Someone tell me how and why this happened? Are there really

ignorant people

> that believe these babies are demons? I am actually sick to my

stomach right

> now.

>

> 's Mom

The entire mainstream understanding of demon posession is really

more offensive than what I understand about it. From my knowledge of

Scripture (and believe me, it's not that great) is the belief that

the earth and world were created perfect, without illness or death.

When the original sin from Adam and Eve occured, sickness and death

entered. So, when someone's body is sick or injured, saying that the

sick person has " an unclean spirit " is not necessarily stating that

a demon is posessing the body, but that the offending party--virus,

bacteria, immune response that damages the body, etc, is of unclean

origin. Essentially sickness is from evil, not that that particular

person, parents, etc caused it or had anything to do with it.

Answered prayer for healing could be as simple as an antibiotic

being discovered or beginning to work in the body, or as huge and a

spontaneous healing with no known reasoning.

I'm not trying to persuade or disuade anyone's opinions, just give

my understanding. Evil spirit beliefs (seemingly to me, anyway) have

been demonized (that is, the belief aspect), lol.

Debi

[Guest guest]

Cheryl I think our husbands are getting on the bandwagon with the group! I

think its great for the dads to be involved.

Pennie

Abby'sMom

[Guest guest]

Message: 14

Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:50:30 +1000 (E. Australia Standard Time)

Subject: Re: Re: This made me sick !

" I also beleive that He only gives these special kids to those

He knows can handle them "

i dont understand the logic of this statement. the thread is about a family who

could not cope with the child, hence the idea that autism is a demon to be

driven out. also, in oz there is the case of the poor woman who was so let down

by the system and lack of support that she killed her child and tried to kill

herself. it is not logical to say that god only gives special kids to those he

knows can handle them when this obviously does not happen. some can cope well.

some can't. some are brutal to nt kids and would be brutal to any child. some

people think they are handling things, but they really are not. they do the

best they can, but i don't see any evidence that anyone was given an autistic

child on purpose. i think autism just comes down to combinations of genes &

environment.

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[Guest guest]

I to agree to this. If God to only give special needs kids to those who can

handle it my family to failed greatly in my care and even acceptance of me.

That is to say that God is not doing hims job (according to this thinking)

as I to see many special needs children who are of neglected by the ones who

are suppose to care for them.

Sondra

[Guest guest]

I disagree both with the statement that special needs kids are only

given to those who can handle it AND that God " never gives us more

than we can bare " . I think the later statement is taken from a Bible

verse that says that God will never allow us to be tempted to the

point of sin. For me, those are very different things.

If we didn't need God to deliver us through these times in our

lives, there would be no need for God. We as part of our human

existance try too often to do everything on our own, believe

everything our way, live as we want to. If it weren't for trials in

our lives, why would we ever need God? Humans are just made that way.

It's been my personal experience that God does and will allow us

more of a trial than we can withstand on our own. He has allowed

these events in my life so that I would reach the end of me and the

beginnings of Him. There is no way I on my own would have been able

to deal with the emotional impact of autism; however, He has shown

me how through His love and guidance. Obviously, the amount of child

abuse toward special needs shows that there are many who do not deal

with it, just as there are many suicides each year because, in my

opinion, people reach the end of themselves and don't reach for the

beginnings of The Lord. Sondra, I would suggest that your family did

not find The Lord and the fruit of The Spirit, " ...love, joy, peace,

longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-

control, against such there is no law. " (Galatians 5:22-23)

Debi

> I to agree to this. If God to only give special needs kids to

those who can

> handle it my family to failed greatly in my care and even

acceptance of me.

> That is to say that God is not doing hims job (according to this

thinking)

> as I to see many special needs children who are of neglected by

the ones who

> are suppose to care for them.

> Sondra

[Guest guest]

I could not have said it better myself.

I get really angry w/ people who tell me that they couldn't have

handled Alyssa, and that God gave her to me for a reason.

That's like their smug way of saying, " I'm so glad it didn't happen

to me. " or " Better you than me. "

Maybe I have a chip on my shoulder, but I can't STAND for someone to

tell me that God doesn't give you more than you can handle and that

special needs kids are given to those who can handle it.

I've lost count of the number of times Alyssa's twin brother wandered

into the driving lane of a parking lot while I was dealing with a

tantrumming Alyssa on the pavement. I'm using my whole body to try

to pick her up, and SCREAMING at him to get out of the way of the

cars, and I just thank God my son hasn't been hurt. Putting one of

my children in danger because the other one is special needs is not

my idea of not having more than I can handle.

PennY

> > I to agree to this. If God to only give special needs kids to

> those who can

> > handle it my family to failed greatly in my care and even

> acceptance of me.

> > That is to say that God is not doing hims job (according to this

> thinking)

> > as I to see many special needs children who are of neglected by

> the ones who

> > are suppose to care for them.

> > Sondra

[Guest guest]

Sondra, I agree with you both on this too. I think a lot of people

say this to the parents who are doing all they can for their kids to

praise them & keep their spirits up. The truth is there's a lot of

parents who can't cope w/special needs kids or any type of kid for

that matter. That's one reason we have so many special need children

on waiting lists for adoption.

Wendie

> I to agree to this. If God to only give special needs kids to those

who can

> handle it my family to failed greatly in my care and even

acceptance of me.

> That is to say that God is not doing hims job (according to this

thinking)

> as I to see many special needs children who are of neglected by the

ones who

> are suppose to care for them.

> Sondra

[Guest guest]

Penny, I have to agree with you too. These statements have made me

upset in the past too. Personally I don't think any of this stuff

(special needs children, etc.) have anything to do with God or

whomever you choose to worship. I also don't believe

these " circumstances " are " given " to us by a higher power. The thing

we do have to combat the circumstances is faith. That has been given

to me & I cling to that everyday. Faith that one day Sky will be

able to cope better in this world, faith that I'll be able to be the

parent she needs to help meet her goals, faith that I can make sure

Rain feels like she gets as much attention as Sky, faith that I can

handle even the worst of worst days and faith that people will let

their goodness rule over the ugliness we all have. I really don't

like to get into religious conversations on groups like these. The

main reason is simply we all have different beliefs & I try to

respect everyone & their beliefs. I think we can all agree the

people of this particular church went too far & this poor little boy

had to pay the price. It's sad & just awful, but maybe this will

open the eyes of many & prevent something like this from happening to

someone else.

Wendie

> > > I to agree to this. If God to only give special needs kids to

> > those who can

> > > handle it my family to failed greatly in my care and even

> > acceptance of me.

> > > That is to say that God is not doing hims job (according to

this

> > thinking)

> > > as I to see many special needs children who are of neglected by

> > the ones who

> > > are suppose to care for them.

> > > Sondra

[Guest guest]

It already got the word " autism " on FoxNews. Alan Combs and I have

corresponded a couple of times and I told him last time that I

realize Foxnews isn't going to give any coverage to autism and asked

him what they are afraid of. I never heard back. At any rate, I saw

the story on the ticker line across the bottom. I've been meaning to

email him and tell him I saw they finally realized they had to have

something, lol.

Debi

It's sad & just awful, but maybe this will

> open the eyes of many & prevent something like this from happening

to

> someone else.

> Wendie

>

[Guest guest]

Debi that is what i to meant to say and I was to be agreeing to another who

said much of what you to shared.

Sondra

[Guest guest]

Wendie I to think I to hate it most because if it were true then it to mean

God to not loved me and did not care to me nor give me a safe place in life

on purpose. That is not the God I to know of.

Sondra

[Guest guest]

the bible itself says ' the race is not to the swift.....chance and unforseen

occorance befall us all'. sometimes bad things just happen. for now untill

rev 21:3,4 hapens, people will have random difficultys.

eric

[Guest guest]

So which things do you think are random and which are planned? I'm

just curious because I was just discussing predestination with

someone the other day.

Debi

> the bible itself says ' the race is not to the swift.....chance

and unforseen

> occorance befall us all'. sometimes bad things just happen. for

now untill

> rev 21:3,4 hapens, people will have random difficultys.

>

> eric

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

lol Debi, if you email him I wonder if you'll get a response this

time. hehehe

Wendie

> It already got the word " autism " on FoxNews. Alan Combs and I have

> corresponded a couple of times and I told him last time that I

> realize Foxnews isn't going to give any coverage to autism and

asked

> him what they are afraid of. I never heard back. At any rate, I saw

> the story on the ticker line across the bottom. I've been meaning

to

> email him and tell him I saw they finally realized they had to have

> something, lol.

>

> Debi

>

>

> It's sad & just awful, but maybe this will

> > open the eyes of many & prevent something like this from

happening

> to

> > someone else.

> > Wendie

> >

[Guest guest]

Amen !!! cherylS

Re: RE:Re: Re: This made me sick !

the bible itself says ' the race is not to the swift.....chance and

unforseen

occorance befall us all'. sometimes bad things just happen. for now

untill

rev 21:3,4 hapens, people will have random difficultys.

eric

[Guest guest]

Whoa.........now your getting deep Debi.....hahaha, if my hubby gets

time I might pick his brain.........cherylS

RE:Re: Re: This made me sick !

So which things do you think are random and which are planned? I'm

just curious because I was just discussing predestination with

someone the other day.

Debi

> the bible itself says ' the race is not to the swift.....chance

and unforseen

> occorance befall us all'. sometimes bad things just happen. for

now untill

> rev 21:3,4 hapens, people will have random difficultys.

>

> eric

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You go , very impressed

Pennie

Abby's Mom

[Guest guest]

I need to contemplate that one to best decribe my opionion. to sum up though

I think we all have free will to choose our own path. but some things like

removing all wickedness after the sovrenty issue that was rasied at the garden

of eden and with job is answered, will hapen. I sum up for now so i can bore

every one later

eric

[Guest guest]

the bluntest way to say it " crap happens " . hehe

eric

[Guest guest]

I know youll all laugh at me b ut I could never understand the bible.

I didnt understand what you said either . Its part of my disability

I am not dumb just hard to understand things that are not said bluntly. I

guess it means bad things happen due to circumstances right?

Charlene

-- Re: RE:Re: Re: This made me sick !

the bible itself says ' the race is not to the swift.....chance and

unforseen

occorance befall us all'. sometimes bad things just happen. for now untill

rev 21:3,4 hapens, people will have random difficultys.

eric

[Guest guest]

Charlene, you aren't dumb at all. I never understood the Bible,

either. It was like I literally had the shades lifted one day. I

wasn't a Christian until a few days after was born, I was

taking a sitz bath and realized in that moment I needed more than

myself to raise that sweet, precious newborn in the other room and

asked Jesus to help me. I call it my heart change.

At any rate, before then I had read Dolly Parton's autobiography. I

don't know why I read it, honestly I couldn't stand her. But, I

loved that book and her stories of her life. She said when she hit

middle age she began feeling depressed and sat down and read the

Bible from cover to cover and by the time she finished it she felt

renewed again. I decided I would do the same. I think I got as far

as , it was over about a 3 yr period. Anyway, I began to get

understanding of the historical aspect of the Jewish and Christian

faith. When I finally reached the end of myself and opened my heart

to Jesus, it really was like a blanket had lifted. I didn't

understand a lot prior, but I was determined to get past Genesis,

lol. I just skipped over what I didn't get.

So, that's my story, but please don't feel bad for not getting it. I

still don't get things the way " they " tell me I should. Like

standardized tests, I hate those reading comprehension things. Just

because I get a different meaning from a paragraph than someone else

doesn't make my answer wrong, just different! That's what makes life

so great, different people feeling different ways. It would be too

dull if we all agreed and saw things/comprehended things the same

way.

Debi

> I know youll all laugh at me b ut I could never understand

the bible.

> I didnt understand what you said either . Its part of my

disability

> I am not dumb just hard to understand things that are not said

bluntly. I

> guess it means bad things happen due to circumstances right?

> Charlene

>

> -- Re: RE:Re: Re: This made me sick !

>

> the bible itself says ' the race is not to the swift.....chance and

> unforseen

> occorance befall us all'. sometimes bad things just happen. for

now untill

> rev 21:3,4 hapens, people will have random difficultys.

>

> eric

>

>

>