Re: Odds of mold toxicity symptoms being "reversible" ROBERT

[Guest guest]

...but you are saying they came back

positive for stachy and aspergillus but those are

molds, not toxins. did say he feels the

spores are the problem and it is easier to see

that since they are living things that can come

to live with a little food and water. I think

that is what lends to so much confusiong in

discussions like this as I have said before.

Some people are talking about mold spores, some

toxins, some objects (like ), some our

bodies (like Live Simply) and these are not the

same at all.

[Guest guest]

-you know, with these olds that produce mycotoxins there can be illions

of ycotoxins attached to one spore. fro abstracts i've been reading

lately, i think they are realizeing that at some point these olds do

put out mycotoxins weather it just happens to be at the time of testing

or weather other condictions at the tie of testing or even the type of

testing that is done may not detect them. stachy is the only one i know

off that the mtcotoxins thierselfs have been tested to show they remain

toxic for years when dry. stachy has different growing condictions than

the others, that doesn't mean the myco's fro others dont also remain

toxic for a long time its just that stachy got more attention and it

was tested. from abstracts i've read lately it seams they are now

understanding that these certain molds do produce mycotoxins as the

norm other than past thinking that it is rare. mycotoxins are part of

these molds growing condictions, i dont see where you could have one

without the other.if you get out while your body can still detox you

may be ok, if not you well probably have mcs. even if you get out while

your still able to detox, if you were exposed to myco's you may always

have a sensativity to them. lets say you were exposed to another kind

of toxin, you may not get to the point of mcs but you will have a hard

time ever being around that toxin again.-- In

, bbw <barb1283@...> wrote:

>

> ..but you are saying they came back

> positive for stachy and aspergillus but those are

> molds, not toxins. did say he feels the

> spores are the problem and it is easier to see

> that since they are living things that can come

> to live with a little food and water. I think

> that is what lends to so much confusiong in

> discussions like this as I have said before.

> Some people are talking about mold spores, some

> toxins, some objects (like ), some our

> bodies (like Live Simply) and these are not the

> same at all.

>

[Guest guest]

I'm sure you are right, quantity is going to have a big impact

on everyone experiences being different from someone else's as

everyone in the world must get mold spores on their clothes and in

their hair and on their skin every day and carry them home where they

eventually disappate before becoming a problem or are washed off or at

least don't build to an amount that is intolerable.

I totally also agree that carrying mold spores from very contaminated

area to new area is something to go to great lengths to avoid as

certainly there is ample information that mold spores can last a long

time and hang around just waiting for that hot, humid summer day to

bloom forth and affect air quality or happily end up in a puddle some

day.

>

You make a good point. My thought on this is that if the mold is still

present and I move it into a " clean " envirenment One of two things will

happen. 1. The mold will die because the needed envirenment is not

[Guest guest]

and ,

It is also possible that some people are having

trouble with the toxins and other people are

having trouble with the spores. Anything is

possible since not enough studies have been done.

As for me, I know for sure if mold count is up

outside, I'm sick outside and inside, so spores

are a big problem for me. Since I don't know

when toxin level is high or low, I don't know if

any of my reactions are to toxins and if so,

which ones. So I'm trying to avoid high numbers

of spores and hoping for low toxic environment to

go along with that. I read 's post, very

discouraging and that is case of mold spores are

there but behind something that actual spore

cannot get through but smaller toxins can but

still the toxin in that case is from mold spores.

They just weren't able to be detected. That

bothers me alot but I don't know what if any

symptoms I have that let me know toxins are

around so I will have to deal with spore count

and mustiness of odor, take no poroused things

with me, hoping to leave mold spores and toxins

behind and hope to be okay. We are are striving

for same thing.

[Guest guest]

Branislav,

I'm not condoning taking contaminated objects

from one place to another. However, study posted

was about T-2 toxins in aqueous solution, or

water and then dissolved in other solutions and

applied as a film on objects...nothing to say

this is immitated in nature. Study could have

been trying to figure out how to apply toxins to

have them stick to things for warfare or how an

enemy might do that and how long it's affects

would have to be dealt with. This does not mean

this would happen in our homes or that toxins do

exist separately from the mold spore for very

long. However antidotal evidence seems to imply

that from people in this group who are sensitive

to it, so it may be true but I would not consider

this scientific evidence that taking an object

from home to another home would contain T-2

toxins *separately* from mold spores. Still

said tools tested positive for mold spores,

not toxins without mold spores.

[Guest guest]

Barb,

Once the trichothecene mycotoxins are formed, their stability does not

depend on the existence of spores or the mold that produced them.

Neither does it depend on the presence of water or any other solvent.

Solvents can only *decrease* the stability of the diluted substance,

not the other way round. Without any solvent, the stability of these

toxins is unaffected. Very rarely does it happen that some chemical

compound must be kept in a certain solvent in order preserve its

stability.

Nowhere in the scientific literature will you find that the stability

of a biotoxin depends on the further presence of the organism that

produced it. Think about the penicillin antibiotic (mycotoxin). It's

separated from the fungus that produced it, and although penicillin is

not considered to be markedly stable, it can exists for years when

kept in a dark place. The same thing goes for the yeast that converts

sugar into alcohol (its mycotoxin). That yeast is called Saccharomyces

cerevisiae. Alcohol is stable once it's separated from this yeast.

I don't think you'll find " peer reviewed " studies about the stability

of the trichothecene toxins on objects from mold infested buildings

any time soon, for obvious reasons.

Despite that, in scientific literature it is stated time and again

that these toxins are " markedly stable under various conditions " . I'll

give two more excerpts. You decide what to think about it. I know from

personal experience that they are *very* stable on common objects -

without mold and without moisture. Anegdotal evidence? Perhaps, but if

I waited for scientific evidence, I would probably just die.

http://193.132.193.215/eman2/fsheet8.asp

-----------------------

All trichothecenes containing an ester group are hydrolysed to their

respective parent alcohols when treated with alkali. A dilute solution

of potassium carbonate, sodium hydroxide or ammonium hydroxide

hydrolyses T-2 toxin and neosolaniol to T-2 tetraol and diacetoxy- and

monoacetoxy- scirpenol to scirpentriol. Many of the alcohols are

unaffected, even by hot dilute alkali. Trichothecenes are thus

chemically stable and can persist for long periods once formed.

Prolonged boiling in water or under highly acidic conditions causes a

skeletal rearrangement due to opening of the epoxide ring. Owing to

the hindered nature of the epoxide and stability of the ring system,

reactions of the trichothecenes usually proceed in a manner

predictable from sound chemical principles, e.g. primary and secondary

hydroxyl groups are easily oxidised to the aldehyde and ketone

derivatives by reagents such as CrO3-H2SO4 in acetone, CrO3-pyridine

and CrO3-acetic acid.

--------------------------------------

http://www.bordeninstitute.army.mil/cwbw/Ch34.pdf

--------------------------------------

The trichothecenes are a very large family of

chemically related toxins produced by various species

of Fusarium, Myrotecium, Trichoderma, Cephalosporium,

Verticimonosporium, and Stachybotrys.4 They are markedly stable under

different environmental conditions. The distinguishing chemical

feature of trichothecenes is the presence of a

trichothecene ring, which contains an olefinic bond

at C-9, 10; and an epoxide group at C-12, 12.5 All

trichothecenes are mycotoxins, but not all mycotoxins

are trichothecenes. This family of mycotoxins

causes multiorgan effects including emesis and diarrhea,

weight loss, nervous disorders, cardiovascular

alterations, immunodepression, hemostatic

derangements, skin toxicity, decreased reproductive

capacity, and bone marrow damage.4,6

---------------------------------------

-Branislav

>

> Branislav,

> I'm not condoning taking contaminated objects

> from one place to another. However, study posted

> was about T-2 toxins in aqueous solution, or

> water and then dissolved in other solutions and

> applied as a film on objects...nothing to say

> this is immitated in nature. Study could have

> been trying to figure out how to apply toxins to

> have them stick to things for warfare or how an

> enemy might do that and how long it's affects

> would have to be dealt with. This does not mean

> this would happen in our homes or that toxins do

> exist separately from the mold spore for very

> long. However antidotal evidence seems to imply

> that from people in this group who are sensitive

> to it, so it may be true but I would not consider

> this scientific evidence that taking an object

> from home to another home would contain T-2

> toxins *separately* from mold spores. Still

> said tools tested positive for mold spores,

> not toxins without mold spores.

>

[Guest guest]

-Barb, if you have been found to have trichathecene mycotoxins is

your system and lead poisoning, why would you not think that your

belongings are contaminated with them too? chances are that lead

particles are being inhaled along with fusarium spores along with

millions of T-myco's on each spore. I am very aware that even with

low exposures myco's can effect your thinking process, even possably

helping you be in denial to some extent(dont get mad over this

statement, it's not meant that way, Im just conserned and i can look

back now and see how even a lower exposure was effecting my

thinking). MABYE robert chris has sensatives from other chemical

toxins and even non-toxic mold in his home is bothering him. maybe

his belongings are not contaminated with myco's.maybe he's suffering

because of a allergy type reaction. what does this have to do with

your situation? and if a myco is still potent in a soluable form why

would it not be in its true form? T-2 myco's are known to have a oil

type substance, this is what sticks to your belongings. this is what

lands on your skin and causes blisters. depending on how contaminated

your home is well determine how thick this oil well be on your

belongings. oil and water do not mix, I dont think water was the

liquid used in this experment. the film is because of the oil

content.maybe because i used dawn dish washing liquid to clean some

of my belongings is why I got the oil off.if roberts fells his

belongings are not contaminated with toxins than maybe they are not,

maybe he hasn't been exposed to mold toxins at all but suffers from

other chemical exposures. i really dont see where your two exposures

can be compared just because he says he so. don't mean to piss anyone

off, just stateing my view from here.-- In

, bbw <barb1283@...> wrote:

>

> Branislav,

> I'm not condoning taking contaminated objects

> from one place to another. However, study posted

> was about T-2 toxins in aqueous solution, or

> water and then dissolved in other solutions and

> applied as a film on objects...nothing to say

> this is immitated in nature. Study could have

> been trying to figure out how to apply toxins to

> have them stick to things for warfare or how an

> enemy might do that and how long it's affects

> would have to be dealt with. This does not mean

> this would happen in our homes or that toxins do

> exist separately from the mold spore for very

> long. However antidotal evidence seems to imply

> that from people in this group who are sensitive

> to it, so it may be true but I would not consider

> this scientific evidence that taking an object

> from home to another home would contain T-2

> toxins *separately* from mold spores. Still

> said tools tested positive for mold spores,

> not toxins without mold spores.

>

[Guest guest]

>

> I am completely lost as to where this is all going. In your last

>post it looked like in one sentence you are saying the same thing I

>did which is not to take things from a contaminated home to a clean

>one, then in the next you say that I need to have proof from some

>peers (whatever that is suppose to mean) and that I am wrong.

No no, Chris. You didn't read my messages carefully

I didn't say you needed to have proof of any peers. In my recent

postings I tried to substantiate your observations with the existing

scientific studies. In other words, I agree with you.

I first responded to the messages that Christ

(antares41_41@... antares40_40) posted, in which he

expressed his doubt that residual mycotoxins on objects can pose such

a great risk as some of us claim, and thinks they are subject to

relatively quick decomposition after having been separated from the

living mold. He also states there are no " peer reviewed " studies which

would prove the contrary. I oppose to this view, because my experience

also tells me that mycotoxins can be very stable under normal

conditions, without living mold that produced them.

My second message (from today, in response to Barb's message) doesn't

contradict my yesterday's message. I am saying the same thing -

mycotoxins are stable on objects under various environmental

conditions. They are also very hard to wash, especially from porous

substances. I have found that only strong hydrogen peroxide can

denature them or decrease their potency.

> The bottom line is since these same contaminants, mold or toxins

>whichever are still on my belongings. I have been tested and shown to

>be susceptible to bio toxin poisoning so I don't need a group of >peers

This is interesting. Can you tell me what tests you did that

established you are susceptible to biotoxin posonining (Dr.

Shoemaker's tests or some other tests?). I am supposed to be going to

the allergist tomorrow, and am still thinking hard how to explain to

him this messy situation with cross-contamination. I'm afraid he'll

look at me as if I told him I saw the aliens. I can't do Dr.

Shoemaker's tests before I go through the 'classic' allergy tests

(which will be a waste of time for sure, unless I persuade him to do

Dr. S's tests along the classic ones).

-Branislav

[Guest guest]

-I guess I should have stated that the things I saved were non-porus

and I had them in a large plastic container outside. I took hot soapy

water,dawn dishwashing liquid and poored it in the container, I also

poored amonia in there two and I let them soak for about 2 days.the

water had a greenish? cast to it. sorry about writeing, my keyboard

is about played out.-- In , " who "

<jeaninem660@...> wrote:

>

> -Barb, if you have been found to have trichathecene mycotoxins is

> your system and lead poisoning, why would you not think that your

> belongings are contaminated with them too? chances are that lead

> particles are being inhaled along with fusarium spores along with

> millions of T-myco's on each spore. I am very aware that even with

> low exposures myco's can effect your thinking process, even

possably

> helping you be in denial to some extent(dont get mad over this

> statement, it's not meant that way, Im just conserned and i can

look

> back now and see how even a lower exposure was effecting my

> thinking). MABYE robert chris has sensatives from other chemical

> toxins and even non-toxic mold in his home is bothering him. maybe

> his belongings are not contaminated with myco's.maybe he's

suffering

> because of a allergy type reaction. what does this have to do with

> your situation? and if a myco is still potent in a soluable form

why

> would it not be in its true form? T-2 myco's are known to have a

oil

> type substance, this is what sticks to your belongings. this is

what

> lands on your skin and causes blisters. depending on how

contaminated

> your home is well determine how thick this oil well be on your

> belongings. oil and water do not mix, I dont think water was the

> liquid used in this experment. the film is because of the oil

> content.maybe because i used dawn dish washing liquid to clean some

> of my belongings is why I got the oil off.if roberts fells his

> belongings are not contaminated with toxins than maybe they are

not,

> maybe he hasn't been exposed to mold toxins at all but suffers from

> other chemical exposures. i really dont see where your two

exposures

> can be compared just because he says he so. don't mean to piss

anyone

> off, just stateing my view from here.-- In

> , bbw <barb1283@> wrote:

> >

> > Branislav,

> > I'm not condoning taking contaminated objects

> > from one place to another. However, study posted

> > was about T-2 toxins in aqueous solution, or

> > water and then dissolved in other solutions and

> > applied as a film on objects...nothing to say

> > this is immitated in nature. Study could have

> > been trying to figure out how to apply toxins to

> > have them stick to things for warfare or how an

> > enemy might do that and how long it's affects

> > would have to be dealt with. This does not mean

> > this would happen in our homes or that toxins do

> > exist separately from the mold spore for very

> > long. However antidotal evidence seems to imply

> > that from people in this group who are sensitive

> > to it, so it may be true but I would not consider

> > this scientific evidence that taking an object

> > from home to another home would contain T-2

> > toxins *separately* from mold spores. Still

> > said tools tested positive for mold spores,

> > not toxins without mold spores.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

> As far as what test were done, I had a group of test. One was for

>MSH, one for VEGF, something about C3a inflammation??? Leptin etc.

>The DNA sheet really does not give me a name but has a bunch of codes

>like DRB1, HLA-DQ, DRB4 on and on. One thing that might be a name of

>the test says Antidiuretic hormone profile, Osmolality?? I don't know

>if that is the test or just another test. The doctors notes have a

>bunch of equations using the above codes and then says " susceptible

>to bio toxins.

> I do have an appointment with Dr. Shoemaker coming up in December

and I have learned there are these and several more test that will be

done. But the doctor that did these first test does follow Shoemakers

protocol she just does not do all the testing that he does.

> Trying to explain this stuff to a doctor who has no knowledge has

>gotten me comments like " delusions of parasites " and all kinds of

>other hilarious things so good luck with that. I got to a point to

>where I took The readout about MSH from Dr. Shoemakers paperwork he

>sent me and his books to the doctor with me and said he was welcome

>to read them if there was any doubt about my claims. That stopped the

>nasty comments real fast. I would be happy to send you a copy of the

>MSH fact sheet if you would like. There is not to much to argue with

>when you have that in hand, but it does help to know before hand if

>yours is low or not.

The problem is, I live in Europe. Therefore I can't just make an

appointment with Dr. Shoemaker. I phoned his secreatary and she told

me that I must have my doctor here (in my country) who would serve as

the mediator between me and Dr. Shoemaker.

Another problem is that, of course, it's hard to find such a doctor.

Perhaps my GP doctor will be willing to coopearate, but if she refuses

I just don't know what to do. Furthermore, although many doctors do

know some English, many don't, so I will have to translate huge

amounts of texts that pertain to toxic molds so that they'll

understand what I'm talking about. Imagine translating Mold Warriors

from English into some other language when you're exhausted by mold

and " attacked " almost every day by some mycotoxin-contaminated object!

I went today to the allergist.. and of course tested negative to all

their mold samples (prick test). When I mentioned her mycotoxins and

toxic molds she became irritated and told me that I was " obviously

fixated on this problem " and that toxins are not her branch of

expertise... so she advised me to go to .. " specialist for

occupational medicine " (something I'm sure won't help me, so I won't

go) and later psychiatrist (something I am absolutely convinced won't

help me). Later she told me the mold samples were predominatntly from

Aspergillus niger, but probably without any toxins, made just to

trigger possible allergy. I don't think Aspergillus' toxins are the

ones I'm sensitive to, especially not in the allergy way of

sensitivity. The toxins from Fusarium, Stachy, Trichoderma are much

more likely to be the culprit.

So things look pretty grim for me. On the face of it, I just need some

sympathetic doctor that would be willing to give up his/her ego a bit

and agree to be the mediator between me and Dr. Shoemaker. But in

reality, it's almost impossible to find such a doctor.

If you don't regard it as secret, please send me by email your results

that you mentioned (MSH, VEGF, C3a, HLA-DR, leptin etc.). Do you have

them scanned so that they can be sent by email? (my email is:

arealis@...)

Then I could print that out and show to my GP doctor and say something

like: " Look, here are the results of one of mold sensitive people.

Can you help me do these same tests, so I can get the proof whether

I'm mold sensitve as well? " . I can erase your name on the printed copy

if you want.

> Once again I apolagize for my not reading your post enough times

>to understand what was going on. I don't blame it on the devil any

>more it's the mold... The devils dinner. LOL Sorry, couldn't resist >it.

Nah, everything is ok

-Branislav

[Guest guest]

Re: cross contamination

I'm just finding with my culture plates and

visually checking things out that most places ARE

moldy, so maybe it's that mycotoxins are at new

place, even really new place due to materials

being moldy before being put in or turned moldy

due to poor building practices. Just a thought,

not refuting cross contamination just adding some

thoughts of other things that could contribute.

After exhaustive search for non moldy place, I

think there are none here. My office and other

large businesses like restaurants, more deluxe

air handling systems in single family homes who

chose the best air handling system and extra

filtration due to already developed allergies

perhaps.

I met a person who was here from Russia and I

mentioned allergies which is all I talk about

since I don't want to go into illness. He said

he knew what I mean, he developed allergies soon

after arriving here. He never had them before.

He is in his mid twenties, said he now vaccums

with a hepa vacuum and has a air purifier in his

bedroom. I was looking at his apt up for rent

and he had a big air purifier in his bedroom and

a Dyson hepa vaccum in his closet, so there is

something going on here being done incorrectly

that is causing this. I believe it is

combination of poor air conditioner design and in

combination with wall to wall carpeting. Air

conditioner quickly developes mold and spews it

over carpeting which no vacuum no matter how good

can get it all up, fouling house quickly to at

least have mycotoxins in humidity of summer at

very least. He said in Russia building are more

open, but maybe that means with lower income they

just open their windows in summer and do not use

these moldy air conditioners and perhaps don't

have wall to wall carpeting everywhere but I

didn't continue converation.

[Guest guest]

-yes, it seams that way here too. i think liveing in the corn belt is

not a good place for us. even if you don't have corn fields close to

you, it all floats around in the air, i think all crops make it worse

and than the good soil and muddy creaks help it, not to mention all

the pesticide run off, etc. i read about how they found that sids

babies had a saritonin deficiency in thier brains. and sids rates

just happens to be highest in the corn belt. go fiqure. anyway sorry

about no capitals, my keyboard just is playing out on me and between

my vision and energy, it just is what it is. and if i cant think of

how a word is spelled at any given moment i just have to write it as

close as possable and go on or i well loss track of what i was even

going to type. good days bad days. and i really need a new

keyboard,lol's-- In , bbw <barb1283@...>

wrote:

>

> Re: cross contamination

>

> I'm just finding with my culture plates and

> visually checking things out that most places ARE

> moldy, so maybe it's that mycotoxins are at new

> place, even really new place due to materials

> being moldy before being put in or turned moldy

> due to poor building practices. Just a thought,

> not refuting cross contamination just adding some

> thoughts of other things that could contribute.

>

> After exhaustive search for non moldy place, I

> think there are none here. My office and other

> large businesses like restaurants, more deluxe

> air handling systems in single family homes who

> chose the best air handling system and extra

> filtration due to already developed allergies

> perhaps.

>

> I met a person who was here from Russia and I

> mentioned allergies which is all I talk about

> since I don't want to go into illness. He said

> he knew what I mean, he developed allergies soon

> after arriving here. He never had them before.

> He is in his mid twenties, said he now vaccums

> with a hepa vacuum and has a air purifier in his

> bedroom. I was looking at his apt up for rent

> and he had a big air purifier in his bedroom and

> a Dyson hepa vaccum in his closet, so there is

> something going on here being done incorrectly

> that is causing this. I believe it is

> combination of poor air conditioner design and in

> combination with wall to wall carpeting. Air

> conditioner quickly developes mold and spews it

> over carpeting which no vacuum no matter how good

> can get it all up, fouling house quickly to at

> least have mycotoxins in humidity of summer at

> very least. He said in Russia building are more

> open, but maybe that means with lower income they

> just open their windows in summer and do not use

> these moldy air conditioners and perhaps don't

> have wall to wall carpeting everywhere but I

> didn't continue converation.

>