Re: Evolutionary instincts & heart & mind _ Tom

[Guest guest]

Hi Tom,

I wanted to give some thoughts to your words so I didn't respond

immediately.

Hm, taken literally, you might not be too grateful for a gift

consisting of thoughts, considering that undoing thoughts is what

we're Working at... at least investigating the thoughts we're

attached to, so why 'give' you more thoughts?

Maybe because thoughts are interesting in themselves, and deserve our

attention and love, like our children, as I think called them

somewhere.

> I was recently made aware of the research of Libet, which seems to

> indicate that 1) conscious awareness of an event in the environment

> lags the event by about .5 second, 2) conscious awareness of a

> decision to take action in some way lags motor impulses in the brain

> initiating the action by up to .5 second. What this tells me is that

> maybe I'm not in control!

Yes, Libet's research has already been around for awhile, his first

experimental results were reported around 1964, and I just noticed

he's still publishing new results.

It's amazingly intrigueing to me, and the results seem to indicate

that indeed we don't have a free will, at most we have the

possibility to veto an ongoing process....

And it seems quite fitting to say that we only have a kind of rear-

view mirror perspective on life, and yes, let's enjoy the ride since

argueing with the driver provokes stress because he/she doesn't

listen! Supposedly the driver (=reality) rules!

> I notice that my beliefs find reasons for me to believe them. When I

> hold onto my beliefs, I tend to not notice evidence that contradicts

> them and I find evidence that supports them.

Yes, since I work in a scientific environment, I notice that

phenomenon quite frequently among scientists (like myself). And even

when the evidence can't be avoided, there is still the matter of

judging whether the evidence is flawed... it's always possible to

find some way out if you don't want to believe the arguments of your

opponents...

> (I had the thought

> a few weeks ago, " I don't 'hold' beliefs, I throw them at people who

> disagree with me! "

Very nice observation, I have noticed that with me, this tendency

appears to fade somewhat as years go by, by the time I'm a 100 years

old chances are I am done with throwing beliefs at people...

> > Imagine a mouse, trying to keep out the claws of a cat.

> > I imagine that the mouse thinks something like:

> >

> > " Uh-oh, that cat's trying to catch me, play with me in a way that

> > only means fun for one of us and that one is not me, and then it

will

> > eat me! "

> >

> > The mouse asks itself the four questions:

>

> How about some turn-arounds?

>

> TA: My thinking is trying to catch me and eat me!

>

> TA: That cat is trying to free me (from my body identification .

>

> TA: Being eaten might be fun after all, how would I know, it's never

> happened to me before.

Very good! I didn't try the turnarounds because I imagined the mouse

wouldn't have an opportunity for any turnarounds before it was eaten!

Your TAs beg the question whether we should let cars run us over to

free us of our body identification?

It doesn't make sense to me really....

At this point one of 's answers to I forgot which question seems

relevant, in which she explained something like (my paraphrasing):

" Eventually it all balances out. Then the heart and the mind meet

[putting the hands flat against each other, as in Namaste], and IT

moves " .

I interpret this 'IT moves' as the movement that is similar to what

the mouse does when it meets a cat or when a mother talks to her

baby, or when we start to eat or drink when hungry or thirsty. " IT

moves, " because heart and mind are connected so closely that there is

no room left for stories to develop in between.

Maybe this isn't what she means when she says 'IT moves', and I'd be

interested to hear anybody's ideas on this particular statement of

.

Eva

[Guest guest]

Dear Eva,

I think your idea of what katie means by " It Moves! " is very well put

and agrees with my story about that.

You said " Your TAs beg the question whether we should let cars run us

over to free us of our body identification?

It doesn't make sense to me really.... "

This does not make sense to me either. Being run over by a car could

very well increase my body identification. It would all depend upon

the story I believe about what that means. As says, as long as

we believe life is higher than death, we will be confused.

Blessings, Steve D.

> Hi Tom,

>

> I wanted to give some thoughts to your words so I didn't respond

> immediately.

>

> Hm, taken literally, you might not be too grateful for a gift

> consisting of thoughts, considering that undoing thoughts is what

> we're Working at... at least investigating the thoughts we're

> attached to, so why 'give' you more thoughts?

> Maybe because thoughts are interesting in themselves, and deserve

our

> attention and love, like our children, as I think called them

> somewhere.

>

> > I was recently made aware of the research of Libet, which seems to

> > indicate that 1) conscious awareness of an event in the

environment

> > lags the event by about .5 second, 2) conscious awareness of a

> > decision to take action in some way lags motor impulses in the

brain

> > initiating the action by up to .5 second. What this tells me is

that

> > maybe I'm not in control!

>

> Yes, Libet's research has already been around for awhile, his first

> experimental results were reported around 1964, and I just noticed

> he's still publishing new results.

> It's amazingly intrigueing to me, and the results seem to indicate

> that indeed we don't have a free will, at most we have the

> possibility to veto an ongoing process....

>

> And it seems quite fitting to say that we only have a kind of rear-

> view mirror perspective on life, and yes, let's enjoy the ride

since

> argueing with the driver provokes stress because he/she doesn't

> listen! Supposedly the driver (=reality) rules!

>

> > I notice that my beliefs find reasons for me to believe them.

When I

> > hold onto my beliefs, I tend to not notice evidence that

contradicts

> > them and I find evidence that supports them.

>

> Yes, since I work in a scientific environment, I notice that

> phenomenon quite frequently among scientists (like myself). And

even

> when the evidence can't be avoided, there is still the matter of

> judging whether the evidence is flawed... it's always possible to

> find some way out if you don't want to believe the arguments of

your

> opponents...

>

>

> > (I had the thought

> > a few weeks ago, " I don't 'hold' beliefs, I throw them at people

who

> > disagree with me! "

>

> Very nice observation, I have noticed that with me, this tendency

> appears to fade somewhat as years go by, by the time I'm a 100

years

> old chances are I am done with throwing beliefs at people...

>

> > > Imagine a mouse, trying to keep out the claws of a cat.

> > > I imagine that the mouse thinks something like:

> > >

> > > " Uh-oh, that cat's trying to catch me, play with me in a way

that

> > > only means fun for one of us and that one is not me, and then

it

> will

> > > eat me! "

> > >

> > > The mouse asks itself the four questions:

>

>

> >

> > How about some turn-arounds?

> >

> > TA: My thinking is trying to catch me and eat me!

> >

> > TA: That cat is trying to free me (from my body identification .

> >

> > TA: Being eaten might be fun after all, how would I know, it's

never

> > happened to me before.

>

> Very good! I didn't try the turnarounds because I imagined the

mouse

> wouldn't have an opportunity for any turnarounds before it was

eaten!

>

> Your TAs beg the question whether we should let cars run us over to

> free us of our body identification?

> It doesn't make sense to me really....

>

> At this point one of 's answers to I forgot which question

seems

> relevant, in which she explained something like (my paraphrasing):

>

> " Eventually it all balances out. Then the heart and the mind meet

> [putting the hands flat against each other, as in Namaste], and IT

> moves " .

>

> I interpret this 'IT moves' as the movement that is similar to what

> the mouse does when it meets a cat or when a mother talks to her

> baby, or when we start to eat or drink when hungry or thirsty. " IT

> moves, " because heart and mind are connected so closely that there

is

> no room left for stories to develop in between.

>

> Maybe this isn't what she means when she says 'IT moves', and I'd

be

> interested to hear anybody's ideas on this particular statement of

> .

>

> Eva

[Guest guest]

Eva,

Very interesting post!

I have experienced the " It Moves " phenomenon, as have many in this group,

and I believe what moves is divine energy. It's the energy that vibrates at

such high frequencies that we can hardly stand the joy it brings to our

being--our hearts feel as if they will burst. WHAT ECSTASY!!!!

Love,

Eddie

>

>Reply-To: Loving-what-is

>To: Loving-what-is

>Subject: Re: Evolutionary instincts & heart & mind _ Tom

>Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2004 14:04:37 -0000

>

>Hi Tom,

>

>I wanted to give some thoughts to your words so I didn't respond

>immediately.

>

>Hm, taken literally, you might not be too grateful for a gift

>consisting of thoughts, considering that undoing thoughts is what

>we're Working at... at least investigating the thoughts we're

>attached to, so why 'give' you more thoughts?

>Maybe because thoughts are interesting in themselves, and deserve our

>attention and love, like our children, as I think called them

>somewhere.

>

> > I was recently made aware of the research of Libet, which seems to

> > indicate that 1) conscious awareness of an event in the environment

> > lags the event by about .5 second, 2) conscious awareness of a

> > decision to take action in some way lags motor impulses in the brain

> > initiating the action by up to .5 second. What this tells me is that

> > maybe I'm not in control!

>

>Yes, Libet's research has already been around for awhile, his first

>experimental results were reported around 1964, and I just noticed

>he's still publishing new results.

>It's amazingly intrigueing to me, and the results seem to indicate

>that indeed we don't have a free will, at most we have the

>possibility to veto an ongoing process....

>

>And it seems quite fitting to say that we only have a kind of rear-

>view mirror perspective on life, and yes, let's enjoy the ride since

>argueing with the driver provokes stress because he/she doesn't

>listen! Supposedly the driver (=reality) rules!

>

> > I notice that my beliefs find reasons for me to believe them. When I

> > hold onto my beliefs, I tend to not notice evidence that contradicts

> > them and I find evidence that supports them.

>

>Yes, since I work in a scientific environment, I notice that

>phenomenon quite frequently among scientists (like myself). And even

>when the evidence can't be avoided, there is still the matter of

>judging whether the evidence is flawed... it's always possible to

>find some way out if you don't want to believe the arguments of your

>opponents...

>

>

> > (I had the thought

> > a few weeks ago, " I don't 'hold' beliefs, I throw them at people who

> > disagree with me! "

>

>Very nice observation, I have noticed that with me, this tendency

>appears to fade somewhat as years go by, by the time I'm a 100 years

>old chances are I am done with throwing beliefs at people...

>

> > > Imagine a mouse, trying to keep out the claws of a cat.

> > > I imagine that the mouse thinks something like:

> > >

> > > " Uh-oh, that cat's trying to catch me, play with me in a way that

> > > only means fun for one of us and that one is not me, and then it

>will

> > > eat me! "

> > >

> > > The mouse asks itself the four questions:

>

>

> >

> > How about some turn-arounds?

> >

> > TA: My thinking is trying to catch me and eat me!

> >

> > TA: That cat is trying to free me (from my body identification .

> >

> > TA: Being eaten might be fun after all, how would I know, it's never

> > happened to me before.

>

>Very good! I didn't try the turnarounds because I imagined the mouse

>wouldn't have an opportunity for any turnarounds before it was eaten!

>

>Your TAs beg the question whether we should let cars run us over to

>free us of our body identification?

>It doesn't make sense to me really....

>

>At this point one of 's answers to I forgot which question seems

>relevant, in which she explained something like (my paraphrasing):

>

> " Eventually it all balances out. Then the heart and the mind meet

>[putting the hands flat against each other, as in Namaste], and IT

>moves " .

>

>I interpret this 'IT moves' as the movement that is similar to what

>the mouse does when it meets a cat or when a mother talks to her

>baby, or when we start to eat or drink when hungry or thirsty. " IT

>moves, " because heart and mind are connected so closely that there is

>no room left for stories to develop in between.

>

>Maybe this isn't what she means when she says 'IT moves', and I'd be

>interested to hear anybody's ideas on this particular statement of

>.

>

>Eva

>

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[Guest guest]

> Hi Tom,

Hello, Eva, again...

> I wanted to give some thoughts to your words so I didn't respond

> immediately.

My anticipation was whetted, and I found that I wanted to sit with

your message for a while before responding.

> Hm, taken literally, you might not be too grateful for a gift

> consisting of thoughts, considering that undoing thoughts is what

> we're Working at... at least investigating the thoughts we're

> attached to, so why 'give' you more thoughts?

> Maybe because thoughts are interesting in themselves, and deserve our

> attention and love, like our children, as I think called them

> somewhere.

I'm noticing that for me 'undoing' my thoughts does not make them go

away. They still show up, I just don't necessarily believe them.

Because I don't believe them, I can welcome them as friends. So I am

grateful for the gift of your thoughts. I'm learning to love the

thoughts that come to me. I'm learning that loving the thoughts that

come to me is a way of being kind to myself.

> > I was recently made aware of the research of Libet, which seems to

> > indicate that 1) conscious awareness of an event in the environment

> > lags the event by about .5 second, 2) conscious awareness of a

> > decision to take action in some way lags motor impulses in the brain

> > initiating the action by up to .5 second. What this tells me is that

> > maybe I'm not in control!

>

> Yes, Libet's research has already been around for awhile, his first

> experimental results were reported around 1964, and I just noticed

> he's still publishing new results.

> It's amazingly intrigueing to me, and the results seem to indicate

> that indeed we don't have a free will, at most we have the

> possibility to veto an ongoing process....

>

> And it seems quite fitting to say that we only have a kind of rear-

> view mirror perspective on life, and yes, let's enjoy the ride since

> argueing with the driver provokes stress because he/she doesn't

> listen! Supposedly the driver (=reality) rules!

So it would seem.

> > I notice that my beliefs find reasons for me to believe them. When I

> > hold onto my beliefs, I tend to not notice evidence that contradicts

> > them and I find evidence that supports them.

>

> Yes, since I work in a scientific environment, I notice that

> phenomenon quite frequently among scientists (like myself). And even

> when the evidence can't be avoided, there is still the matter of

> judging whether the evidence is flawed... it's always possible to

> find some way out if you don't want to believe the arguments of your

> opponents...

> > (I had the thought

> > a few weeks ago, " I don't 'hold' beliefs, I throw them at people who

> > disagree with me! "

>

> Very nice observation, I have noticed that with me, this tendency

> appears to fade somewhat as years go by, by the time I'm a 100 years

> old chances are I am done with throwing beliefs at people...

Yes. It seems to me that inquiry helps to ease that tendency as well.

> > ...

> > How about some turn-arounds?

> >

> > TA: My thinking is trying to catch me and eat me!

> >

> > TA: That cat is trying to free me (from my body identification .

> >

> > TA: Being eaten might be fun after all, how would I know, it's never

> > happened to me before.

>

> Very good! I didn't try the turnarounds because I imagined the mouse

> wouldn't have an opportunity for any turnarounds before it was eaten!

>

> Your TAs beg the question whether we should let cars run us over to

> free us of our body identification?

> It doesn't make sense to me really....

Well, if I were inquiring into that situation, my answers and

turn-arounds might be different.

> At this point one of 's answers to I forgot which question seems

> relevant, in which she explained something like (my paraphrasing):

>

> " Eventually it all balances out. Then the heart and the mind meet

> [putting the hands flat against each other, as in Namaste], and IT

> moves " .

>

> I interpret this 'IT moves' as the movement that is similar to what

> the mouse does when it meets a cat or when a mother talks to her

> baby, or when we start to eat or drink when hungry or thirsty. " IT

> moves, " because heart and mind are connected so closely that there is

> no room left for stories to develop in between.

>

> Maybe this isn't what she means when she says 'IT moves', and I'd be

> interested to hear anybody's ideas on this particular statement of

> .

The language that comes to mind for me when I read your words is

something else I've heard say (and which I notice running

through my head frequently these days): " Peace knows what to do. "

Thank you, Eva.

love,

Tom