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Re: Normal Labs - Long - Sorry!

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Do you take any other medications? (Blood pressure or cholesterol or

fosamax)

Pat

>

> A little background, I am 57 years old, currently living in Round

> Rock, TX, hysto in the late 1980's, no HRT since the late 1990's. I

> was diagnosed with Hashi's about six years ago due to elevated

> antibodies, and the endo prescribed Synthroid (even tho he said my

> other labs did not support it). After about 18 months of increasing

> doses (with increasing symptoms!) I stopped the Synthroid. I tried a

> minute dose of Armour but could not tolerate it, due to horrible back

> pain, elevated pulse rate, etc.

>

> I had cortisol saliva testing done in July, 2007 (will be doing

> another soon):

>

> 7-8A 25 - range 13-24 - elevated

> 11-12N 4 - range 5-10 - depressed

> 4-5P 3 - range 3-8 - low normal

> 11-12M 2 - range 1-4

>

> DHEA 3 - range 3-10

>

> Most current serum labs run on March 21, 2008 (still waiting for the

> copy to be sent to me):

>

> Vit D 29.3 - range 30-60 (in June 2007, was 16.8, range 32-100);

> (supplementing with 5,000 iu's D3 per day).

>

> TSH 1.87 - range .44-4.37 (has ranged from .03 to almost 3 over the

> past 2 years)

>

> Parathyroid 52 - range 12-88 (not sure what this test was)

>

> FT4 0.9 - range .6-1.6 (has been decreasing steadily each time labs

> are taken)

>

> FT3 - this doc refused to run any T3's, he said that would

> only " confuse " the issue. My last FT3 was July, 2007, was 1.06,

> range .87-1.78. They have also steadily decreased.

>

> This doc also ran the ferritin, sodium, potassium, B-12 (which were

> all borderline low last time), and other labs, but I will have to

> wait to get the written copy to have those results.

>

> I had another thyroid ultrasound in Feb, 2008, and it showed my

> thyroid was swollen, worse on the right side, with multiple nodules

> (some full of fluid, some solid, and some a combination of the two).

> I have a goiter that feels like it is choking me, but the doc sees no

> reason to treat it.

>

> The last time my aldosterone and renin were checked, the renin was

> out of range low and the aldosterone was borderline low; the doc said

> I could not have a pituitary problem as the ratio of the two was okay

> and that I also have high blood pressure. (As a side note, a mod on

> another thyroid board disagrees, and believes me to be secondary AI,

> needing cortisol replacement and Armour; he also reviewed the results

> of my cortisol stim test -- but, of course, no Docs agree and I

> haven't been able to get further testing!)

>

> My primary concerns at this point are the swollen/nodular/goiter

> thyroid, osteoporosis, degenerative disk disease, aching in

> bones/joints/muscles, almost a steady, throbbing pain just to the

> left of my spine and below my bra strap area; badly thinning hair,

> dry cracking skin, unbelievable fatigue, brain fog/memory problems,

> and, lately, EXTREME mood changes (and I don't mean good ones!).

>

> I supplement with sea salt, CoQ10 with fish oil, Evening Primrose

> Oil, and other vitamins, extra B's, C, D and iron.

>

> Other than firing this doc and trying to find another one, anyone

> have any other suggestions? I truly do not know what to do. I want

> my life back!!

>

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I take Benicar 40 mg once a day, and an additional Clonidine 0.1 mg

when/if my systolic spikes over 160, which it seems to do routinely.

I have flexeril (muscle relaxer) and Darvocet (pain), but I take them

exceedingly sparingly. I cannot take any of the Fosamax-types as

they will not stay in my stomach long enough to do any good (come

back up within 5-15 minutes. My chol is slighly elevated and the

last doc wanted to put me on Lipitor, but I am trying to control it

with diet instead. I also have chronic diarrea (radiation enteritis,

they think), so that does not help with absorption issues. I have

many drug allergies and am sensitive to most herbs, therefore I try

to not take something unless I just HAVE to. I also must avoid most

dairy products due to lactose intolerance.

>

>

> Do you take any other medications? (Blood pressure or cholesterol

or

> fosamax)

>

> Pat

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Barbara, because of what this doctor is NOT doing about multiple nodules and

some of them solid and the choking and his being no nonchalant about this

part of it, yes, that's still my suggestion, the Deep 6. Reason for that

one suggestion is that you're not going to budge until you get rid of this

doctor, as he holds the key to the tests and treatments, all having to do

with your thyroid. The other tests are a different matter, I would suppose,

not knowing if any are related to the thyroid, except for the actual testing

having to do with thyroid.

" Normal " Labs - Long - Sorry!

>A little background, I am 57 years old, currently living in Round

> Rock, TX, hysto in the late 1980's, no HRT since the late 1990's. I

> was diagnosed with Hashi's about six years ago due to elevated

> antibodies, and the endo prescribed Synthroid (even tho he said my

> other labs did not support it). After about 18 months of increasing

> doses (with increasing symptoms!) I stopped the Synthroid. I tried a

> minute dose of Armour but could not tolerate it, due to horrible back

> pain, elevated pulse rate, etc.

>

> I had cortisol saliva testing done in July, 2007 (will be doing

> another soon):

>

> 7-8A 25 - range 13-24 - elevated

> 11-12N 4 - range 5-10 - depressed

> 4-5P 3 - range 3-8 - low normal

> 11-12M 2 - range 1-4

>

> DHEA 3 - range 3-10

>

> Most current serum labs run on March 21, 2008 (still waiting for the

> copy to be sent to me):

>

> Vit D 29.3 - range 30-60 (in June 2007, was 16.8, range 32-100);

> (supplementing with 5,000 iu's D3 per day).

>

> TSH 1.87 - range .44-4.37 (has ranged from .03 to almost 3 over the

> past 2 years)

>

> Parathyroid 52 - range 12-88 (not sure what this test was)

>

> FT4 0.9 - range .6-1.6 (has been decreasing steadily each time labs

> are taken)

>

> FT3 - this doc refused to run any T3's, he said that would

> only " confuse " the issue. My last FT3 was July, 2007, was 1.06,

> range .87-1.78. They have also steadily decreased.

>

> This doc also ran the ferritin, sodium, potassium, B-12 (which were

> all borderline low last time), and other labs, but I will have to

> wait to get the written copy to have those results.

>

> I had another thyroid ultrasound in Feb, 2008, and it showed my

> thyroid was swollen, worse on the right side, with multiple nodules

> (some full of fluid, some solid, and some a combination of the two).

> I have a goiter that feels like it is choking me, but the doc sees no

> reason to treat it.

>

> The last time my aldosterone and renin were checked, the renin was

> out of range low and the aldosterone was borderline low; the doc said

> I could not have a pituitary problem as the ratio of the two was okay

> and that I also have high blood pressure. (As a side note, a mod on

> another thyroid board disagrees, and believes me to be secondary AI,

> needing cortisol replacement and Armour; he also reviewed the results

> of my cortisol stim test -- but, of course, no Docs agree and I

> haven't been able to get further testing!)

>

> My primary concerns at this point are the swollen/nodular/goiter

> thyroid, osteoporosis, degenerative disk disease, aching in

> bones/joints/muscles, almost a steady, throbbing pain just to the

> left of my spine and below my bra strap area; badly thinning hair,

> dry cracking skin, unbelievable fatigue, brain fog/memory problems,

> and, lately, EXTREME mood changes (and I don't mean good ones!).

>

> I supplement with sea salt, CoQ10 with fish oil, Evening Primrose

> Oil, and other vitamins, extra B's, C, D and iron.

>

> Other than firing this doc and trying to find another one, anyone

> have any other suggestions? I truly do not know what to do. I want

> my life back!!

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I think the only other tests were the normal blood workups (sodium,

potassium, etc, which are always borderline low, even supplementing

with sea salt and a high potassium diet). He had said he wanted to

run " some rather exotic " tests to see if he could determine why my

B/P stays so high and is hard to control, as well as why my bones are

deteriorating as quickly as what they appear to be. One was

a " protein something " , not sure until I get the labs in the mail.

When I asked him about all of the other symptoms, like the hair loss,

moods, memory, etc, all he could say was that there was a lot of

things that could cause them, but gave me no concrete ideas. He also

said that if he gave me thyroid hormone, when my labs were in the

normal ranges, that it would make matters much worse.

When his nurse called me with the results, saying that all except

the " D " was in normal ranges, and see you in three months, I just

wanted to cry! I only moved to this area in Oct 2007, and this

particular endo was highly recommended as being tops in his field,

gives lectures/seminars, etc. I am having quite a time finding a

good doc of any sort that is reasonably close to this area and that

takes Medicare. One of my younger sisters and I moved here, and I

have custody of my 10 year old granddaughter, so finances are tight,

to say the least.

I was diagnosed with reinke's edema a couple of years ago, which is

basically swelling and a sticky fluid collection in my vocal cords.

This causes early morning nausea and choking, sometimes vomiting. I

am told that it is actually another symptom of hypoT, but, again,

nothing is reflected in my labs. My ENT scoped my vocal cords about

a month ago, and said they were still quite swollen, and that the

left vocal cord was bulging up. He also said the only way to know

for sure what was causing the bulge was to " cut my throat " and look,

because nothing will show up on an ultrasound. I just wonder if it

is part of the goiter ... and why would my T-3's and 4's just keep

getting lower and lower? I'll admit it, I feel totally lost and

confused!

Barbara, because of what this doctor is NOT doing about multiple

nodules and some of them solid and the choking and his being no nonchalant about

this part of it, yes, that's still my suggestion, the Deep 6. Reason for that

one suggestion is that you're not going to budge until you get rid of this

doctor, as he holds the key to the tests and treatments, all having to do with

your thyroid. The other tests are a different matter, I would suppose, not

knowing if any are related to the thyroid, except for the actual testing having

to do with thyroid.

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I asked because statins can cause lots of muscle and joint pain (Lipitor

and Crestor are the worst). Make sure that you take your blood pressure

meds well away from your Thyroid meds. Beta blockers are known to

decrease T3. Fosamax is bad on creating pain as well. Have you been

tested for glutin tolerance? It seems to effect a lot of Hypo people

and one result can be diarrhea. If you are that sensitive to meds, you

might be sensitive to a filler in Armour. You might look into

compounding so that the fillers are removed. A lot of people don't do

well with compounded Armour, but if you are allergic to the fillers,

then it might be worth a shot.

Pat

>

> I take Benicar 40 mg once a day, and an additional Clonidine 0.1 mg

> when/if my systolic spikes over 160, which it seems to do routinely.

> I have flexeril (muscle relaxer) and Darvocet (pain), but I take them

> exceedingly sparingly. I cannot take any of the Fosamax-types as

> they will not stay in my stomach long enough to do any good (come

> back up within 5-15 minutes. My chol is slighly elevated and the

> last doc wanted to put me on Lipitor, but I am trying to control it

> with diet instead. I also have chronic diarrea (radiation enteritis,

> they think), so that does not help with absorption issues. I have

> many drug allergies and am sensitive to most herbs, therefore I try

> to not take something unless I just HAVE to. I also must avoid most

> dairy products due to lactose intolerance.

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Guest guest

Hi, Pat, and thanks for your reply! I'm not taking any statins, as I

would like to control my cholesterol with diet instead of drugs, if

possible. I am also not on any type of thyroid meds at present, as I

believe I need to strengthen my adrenals and rebuild the vitamins

that I am low in first, especially the Vit D, B-12 and iron. I also

have been trying to enrich my calcium intake, instead of taking the

Fosamax type drugs, because of their effect on my stomach. I have

never been tested for gluten intolerance, although that will probably

be one of my next steps.

Do you, or anyone, have any thoughts or comments on my labs? Could I

really be as hypo as I feel and it not show in my labs? Any ideas

why my FT4's and T3's would continue decreasing? I am sorry to ask

so many questions, but I am truly confused!

I asked because statins can cause lots of muscle and joint pain

(Lipitor and Crestor are the worst). Make sure that you take your blood

pressure meds well away from your Thyroid meds. Beta blockers are known to

decrease T3. Fosamax is bad on creating pain as well. Have you been tested for

glutin tolerance? It seems to effect a lot of Hypo people and one result can be

diarrhea. If you are that sensitive to meds, you might be sensitive to a filler

in Armour. You might look into compounding so that the fillers are removed. A

lot of people don't do well with compounded Armour, but if you are allergic to

the fillers, then it might be worth a shot.

Pat

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Barbara, I think that your adrenals are struggling. They start out

marginally high, then go low, then struggle to get back into range.

They could be the reason that you don't tollerate Armour. My doctor

tells me that thyroid nodules are a sign of iodine defficiency. If you

can find a doctor that will do a iodine loading test, you can find this

info out and treat it with Iodoral. Usually only holistic doctors will

perform this test. Dr. Manzanero is in Austin and will test adrenals

and do iodine loading, but he doesn't take insurance, you have to file

your own, meaning he will always be out of network. (I go to his PA

Debbie Winder). Your low ferrin and low B12 could be causing a lot of

your problems. Despite what your doctor told you about Free T3, it is

essential. I have an article that discusses the necessity of testing

Free T3 and Free T4, but I am not in town right now and I have it

bookmarked on a different computer. When I get back I will post it.

The frees tell you what is available for the cells to use. Your Free T3

could be falling because your body is not converting T4 to T3. (That is

why it needs to be tested). Have you had antibodies tested for

Hashimotos? That would be necessary too to see if you have an

autoimmune problem.

Hope this helps some,

Pat

>

> A little background, I am 57 years old, currently living in Round

> Rock, TX, hysto in the late 1980's, no HRT since the late 1990's. I

> was diagnosed with Hashi's about six years ago due to elevated

> antibodies, and the endo prescribed Synthroid (even tho he said my

> other labs did not support it). After about 18 months of increasing

> doses (with increasing symptoms!) I stopped the Synthroid. I tried a

> minute dose of Armour but could not tolerate it, due to horrible back

> pain, elevated pulse rate, etc.

>

> I had cortisol saliva testing done in July, 2007 (will be doing

> another soon):

>

> 7-8A 25 - range 13-24 - elevated

> 11-12N 4 - range 5-10 - depressed

> 4-5P 3 - range 3-8 - low normal

> 11-12M 2 - range 1-4

>

> DHEA 3 - range 3-10

>

> Most current serum labs run on March 21, 2008 (still waiting for the

> copy to be sent to me):

>

> Vit D 29.3 - range 30-60 (in June 2007, was 16.8, range 32-100);

> (supplementing with 5,000 iu's D3 per day).

>

> TSH 1.87 - range .44-4.37 (has ranged from .03 to almost 3 over the

> past 2 years)

>

> Parathyroid 52 - range 12-88 (not sure what this test was)

>

> FT4 0.9 - range .6-1.6 (has been decreasing steadily each time labs

> are taken)

>

> FT3 - this doc refused to run any T3's, he said that would

> only " confuse " the issue. My last FT3 was July, 2007, was 1.06,

> range .87-1.78. They have also steadily decreased.

>

> This doc also ran the ferritin, sodium, potassium, B-12 (which were

> all borderline low last time), and other labs, but I will have to

> wait to get the written copy to have those results.

>

> I had another thyroid ultrasound in Feb, 2008, and it showed my

> thyroid was swollen, worse on the right side, with multiple nodules

> (some full of fluid, some solid, and some a combination of the two).

> I have a goiter that feels like it is choking me, but the doc sees no

> reason to treat it.

>

> The last time my aldosterone and renin were checked, the renin was

> out of range low and the aldosterone was borderline low; the doc said

> I could not have a pituitary problem as the ratio of the two was okay

> and that I also have high blood pressure. (As a side note, a mod on

> another thyroid board disagrees, and believes me to be secondary AI,

> needing cortisol replacement and Armour; he also reviewed the results

> of my cortisol stim test -- but, of course, no Docs agree and I

> haven't been able to get further testing!)

>

> My primary concerns at this point are the swollen/nodular/goiter

> thyroid, osteoporosis, degenerative disk disease, aching in

> bones/joints/muscles, almost a steady, throbbing pain just to the

> left of my spine and below my bra strap area; badly thinning hair,

> dry cracking skin, unbelievable fatigue, brain fog/memory problems,

> and, lately, EXTREME mood changes (and I don't mean good ones!).

>

> I supplement with sea salt, CoQ10 with fish oil, Evening Primrose

> Oil, and other vitamins, extra B's, C, D and iron.

>

> Other than firing this doc and trying to find another one, anyone

> have any other suggestions? I truly do not know what to do. I want

> my life back!!

>

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Barbara, I was also wondering about low

ferritin possibly being an issue for you, as well as adrenals. Did you

get the ferritin labs back?

Some of your labs are at the bottom

end. I kind of wonder if there is room for improvement.

So are you taking Synthroid now?

Some folks don’t do well on

Synthroid. It sounds like you have problems with Armour but it could be

from adrenal or ferritin issues. Where was your back ache? When I

was having hyper symptoms from taking Armour with no adrenal support and also

had a very low ferrin, I also had back pain. It was bilateral

around the kidney area. I personally think it was my adrenal glands

aching.

I believe that Synthroid is a T4 only

product. Maybe you are not converting the T4 to T3. A lot of us

hypo folks do not convert things the way doctors assume. If you can’t

do Armour maybe you can have a doctor add some synthetic T3. I think that

is Cytomel. Although it sounds like this doctor does not understand

patient’s not converting since he does not test the T3’s.

I’m just brainstorming.

Talk about not converting well. You

say you are taking evening primrose oil. I used to have terrible

PMS. Evening primrose is supposed to help it. It made mine SO much

worse. Apparently I don’t convert evening primrose oil correctly.

Many of us have pretty normal looking labs

and still feel like ****. It is my understanding that some folks need

their labs to be at the top or even slightly over the top of range in order to

feel well.

I would really have a hard time with a

doctor that totally ignored all of my symptoms because the labs were normal, especially

the goiter that is choking you. Unfortunately it is easy for doctors to

dismiss our complaints that are more subjective like fatigue. But it

would seem that by your ultrasound and I am sure by physical exam, you have a

real problem going on.

I feel for you. It sounds like you

have your hands full with life circumstances and then not feeling well on top

of that. Then you get a doctor that says you are “normal”.

You said you felt like crying. I probably would have.

Hang in there girl!

Kim in No Texas

>

> A little background, I am 57 years old, currently living in Round

> Rock, TX, hysto in the late 1980's, no HRT since

the late 1990's. I

> was diagnosed with Hashi's about six years ago due to elevated

> antibodies, and the endo prescribed Synthroid (even tho he said my

> other labs did not support it). After about 18 months of increasing

> doses (with increasing symptoms!) I stopped the Synthroid. I tried a

> minute dose of Armour but could not tolerate it, due to horrible back

> pain, elevated pulse rate, etc.

>

> I had cortisol saliva testing done in July, 2007 (will be doing

> another soon):

>

> 7-8A 25 - range 13-24 - elevated

> 11-12N 4 - range 5-10 - depressed

> 4-5P 3 - range 3-8 - low normal

> 11-12M 2 - range 1-4

>

> DHEA 3 - range 3-10

>

> Most current serum labs run on March 21, 2008 (still waiting for the

> copy to be sent to me):

>

> Vit D 29.3 - range 30-60 (in June 2007, was 16.8, range 32-100);

> (supplementing with 5,000 iu's D3 per day).

>

> TSH 1.87 - range .44-4.37 (has ranged from .03 to almost 3 over the

> past 2 years)

>

> Parathyroid 52 - range 12-88 (not sure what this test was)

>

> FT4 0.9 - range .6-1.6 (has been decreasing steadily each time labs

> are taken)

>

> FT3 - this doc refused to run any T3's, he said that would

> only " confuse " the issue. My last FT3 was July, 2007, was 1.06,

> range .87-1.78. They have also steadily decreased.

>

> This doc also ran the ferritin, sodium, potassium, B-12 (which were

> all borderline low last time), and other labs, but I will have to

> wait to get the written copy to have those results.

>

> I had another thyroid ultrasound in Feb, 2008, and it showed my

> thyroid was swollen, worse on the right side, with multiple nodules

> (some full of fluid, some solid, and some a combination of the two).

> I have a goiter that feels like it is choking me, but the doc sees no

> reason to treat it.

>

> The last time my aldosterone and renin were checked, the renin was

> out of range low and the aldosterone was borderline low; the doc said

> I could not have a pituitary problem as the ratio of the two was okay

> and that I also have high blood pressure. (As a side note, a mod on

> another thyroid board disagrees, and believes me to be secondary AI,

> needing cortisol replacement and Armour; he also reviewed the results

> of my cortisol stim test -- but, of course, no Docs agree and I

> haven't been able to get further testing!)

>

> My primary concerns at this point are the swollen/nodular/goiter

> thyroid, osteoporosis, degenerative disk disease, aching in

> bones/joints/muscles, almost a steady, throbbing pain just to the

> left of my spine and below my bra strap area; badly thinning hair,

> dry cracking skin, unbelievable fatigue, brain fog/memory problems,

> and, lately, EXTREME mood changes (and I don't mean good ones!).

>

> I supplement with sea salt, CoQ10 with fish oil, Evening Primrose

> Oil, and other vitamins, extra B's, C, D and iron.

>

> Other than firing this doc and trying to find another one, anyone

> have any other suggestions? I truly do not know what to do. I want

> my life back!!

>

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Thanks all for the replies! I finally got my other labs back today.

The ferritin was 38.0, range 11.0-306.8; the sodium and potassium are

back up in the normal ranges; and he " forgot " to run the B-12.

Kim, I'm not taking anything right now, other than the vitamin

supplements and sea salt. I have a " stash " of Armour, as, even

though I can't take it yet, I still get my old prescription filled

every month so it doesn't expire. The back ache is just to the left

of my spine and just below the bra strap area all of the time, and is

only sometimes on the right side. I also have lower back pain, but I

believe that is from my disk disease and sciata.

I will probably keep this doc only until I see if I can get an MRI,

or until I find another doc that I can afford. I have looked at Dr.

Manzanaro's web site; I wish I could afford to go there, but at this

time, that would be impossible.

Barbara

>

> Barbara, I was also wondering about low ferritin possibly being an

issue for

> you, as well as adrenals. Did you get the ferritin labs back?

>

>

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Pat, when you get back and have the time, I would love to see that

article you mentioned. I have been trying to support my adrenals

with vitamins, sea salt, etc, but have only been feeling worse. I

need to have new salivas run, and go from there, I guess!

I have had my antibodies tested several times, and the TPOAb and the

Antithyroglobulin Ab's are always elevated. I was taking selenium,

as I was told that would suppress them, but would be curious to have

them run again. It must not be working too well since the recent

development of the goiter! I've been afraid to try the iodine

because of the Hashi's, but may break down and do it anyway. My

sister, who also has Hashi's, took Iodoral for about 6 or 8 weeks,

and she said she really felt better afterwards.

Barbara

>

>

> Barbara, I think that your adrenals are struggling. They start out

> marginally high, then go low, then struggle to get back into range.

> They could be the reason that you don't tollerate Armour. My doctor

> tells me that thyroid nodules are a sign of iodine defficiency. If

you

> can find a doctor that will do a iodine loading test, you can find

this

> info out and treat it with Iodoral.

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Barb, I think this was the article I was talking about that defends

testing Free T3.

http://www.thyroidscience.com/editorials/yellin/yellin.mar.2008.htm

Pat

>

> Pat, when you get back and have the time, I would love to see that

> article you mentioned. I have been trying to support my adrenals

> with vitamins, sea salt, etc, but have only been feeling worse. I

> need to have new salivas run, and go from there, I guess!

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My doctor likes ferritin in the 100’s.

So maybe there is room for improvement with the ferritin.

Kim in No Texas

From: Texas_Thyroid_Groups [mailto:Texas_Thyroid_Groups ] On Behalf Of Barbara

Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008

10:10 PM

To: Texas_Thyroid_Groups

Subject:

Re: " Normal " Labs - Long - Sorry!

Thanks all for the replies! I finally got my other

labs back today.

The ferritin was 38.0, range 11.0-306.8; the sodium and potassium are

back up in the normal ranges; and he " forgot " to run the B-12.

Kim, I'm not taking anything right now, other than the vitamin

supplements and sea salt. I have a " stash " of Armour, as, even

though I can't take it yet, I still get my old prescription filled

every month so it doesn't expire. The back ache is just to the left

of my spine and just below the bra strap area all of the time, and is

only sometimes on the right side. I also have lower back pain, but I

believe that is from my disk disease and sciata.

I will probably keep this doc only until I see if I can get an MRI,

or until I find another doc that I can afford. I have looked at Dr.

Manzanaro's web site; I wish I could afford to go there, but at this

time, that would be impossible.

Barbara

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