Re: The Danger In Doing The Work

January 7, 2004

Hi Andy,

Just playing around with

a little " de-constructing "

of my own....

you wrote:

<<In using the term " danger " I was suggesting that there are those who

desperately do NOT want that outcome.>>

CK: Yet, " IF " that is true, that there are those who

desperately do NOT want that outcome, then that is

What Is.

Is it absolutely true that there is

some other who desperately does not want that outcome?

Whose business is this thought

that they do not want this outcome?

Who is this someone?

Is there a reason to keep this thought

that there is in fact, someone that desperately does

not want some kind of outcome?

<<They simply want to feel

better, stop the pain, ease the apparent suffering. That is

sufficient for them. And The Work appears to be very good at that

(for certain people). If one of these folks continues donig The Work

on ALL thoughts, they may find the bottom dropping out, unexpectedly

( " the danger " ), and the LAST thing they desire is the deconstruction

of the sense of self.>>

CK:......IF it is true-- that the LAST thing " they " desire is

the deconstruction of the sense of self, that all they

want is to feel better, to have some peace...then that

would be What Is, no?

Investigation would happen or not happen.

Is there actually someone to be deconstructed,

or awakened? Who is that?

<< Perhaps,however, they may find such seeing-

through a blessing.

CK....Who is there to feel " blessed " ?

Thanks for playing, Andy

January 7, 2004

Andy I hear you believe that " the work " can be dangerous...

" It seems to me that in such instances, The Work may be experienced as

an effective tool that will allow one to navigate the rocky shoals of

life's tumultuous tempests. It may function as a life preserver

thrown to one who believes he/she is drowning in heavy seas.

And yet, The Work can be insidious too. And THIS is the real danger

in doing The Work!

Persued with passion, engaged in without care for the outcome

(something that may only happen when one is not in the throes of an

upset), practiced without dogmatic adherence, investigated

relentlessly and tirelessly .... The Work may contribute to the

undermining of the sense of self, may provoke one to realize that all

which was held to be " my self " was only ... thoughts.

This is the beginning of the unraveling of the skein of the self, and

the emerging of a sense of peace which is no longer dependent on

anything " outside " of one's self since, it is now seen that there is

no outside or inside, there is only It, What IS. "

" Is what is " dangerous?

I used to think that the work was about undoing self... but that was

not true. The work is about undoing thoughts that give me pain. No

more, no less. If I think that something is wrong, then I inquire

because " what is " is reality and might as well live there---there is

more peace for me as reality has truly been far kinder.

The work can't be dangerous, LOL it is only 4 questions! It is all

about getting clear with regard to my beliefs. How silly to have upset

over something I don't even believe or that I find is not even true for

me.

I felt compelled to write because there was a time when I was

suspect to all forms of therapy, (I had to go for 6 months and resisted

in many ways, or I thought I did). In the 70's there were more Esalen

trips and guru sittings and courses in college that one could take just

on Hobbits alone! They too became a " religion " . I was extremely

suspect against anything that would turn me into a flakey/fakey zombie.

and the work came to me at a time when I felt great pain. And

with very little effort or zombie-dom I was able to lose those silly

thoughts.

I went to the cleanse....again some weird things for me....but all

in all much good was had. So I braved " the school " and again, cult!,

wackos!, attempting to have me follow a regime! Oh I had " all the

issues " so I did it " different " ...MY WAY. And still I heard what I

received to be similar to others. No cult, still not a zombie. I was

lighter! (not because I kept to the feeding schedule either!) I dropped

some erroneous beliefs that someone loaned me long ago. It was marvelous

amidst my own " stories of the school " .

The work is the only form of inquiry that I have found to be simple,

non-threatening to " self " , and doable during duress. Never is there a

time when we are told DROP that thought. If I like my story I will keep

it! If I choose to wallow a bit, I will do that too! I can ask " what

do I get out of keeping that belief? There was a time when I thought by

keeping a belief " kept me safe " ...so I kept it. It was not a peaceful

thought, but I figured that I could not live comfortably without it so

might as well live non-comfortably with it! LOL Until I was ready to

drop it, or find the truth, I was not ready to evolve to that truth.

And it was fine! No thoughts of something done to " the self " . Still

here still intact, what ever that means. No craziness, zombie ness, or

monster change in behavior.

I have done another cleanse and next another school in March because

it is so close to home and well this time I might go to the school

without judgments about it, before I even get there! LOL Who knows what

that might look like, how fun to find out! Therapy left me feeling

" damaged " , " in need of repair " , " in need of intervention by someone

else " , I do not feel that with " the work " . I learn more and more how to

be efficient at " asking me " . What is the worst that can happen if I ask

me? I could say " no " . LOL Perhaps I could say YES! LOL that is even

funnier!

I do not have a proof of danger, I do not have that story.

Lovingly,

April

January 7, 2004

Andy I hear you believe that " the work " can be dangerous...

" Is what is " dangerous?

*****I didn't make myself clear then. (A common occurence! Hahaha!!)

The " dangerous " part was directed at those who want to continue with

an imbedded sense of self, believing themselves to be the doer, the

one who creates the thoughts of change, initiates the change,

and " does " the change. Inquired into deeply, The Work challenges all

those assumptions, pointing to the fact that we are not the drivers

but rather that which is driven.

I used to think that the work was about undoing self... but that was

not true.

*****For you. It is not true *for you*. And I honor that. However,

in my experience, I can't agree. ly, I'm unclear about how you

arrived at your conclusion if you read LWI. Throughout, the text is

sprinkled liberally with pointers that there is no 'self' doing ANY

of it:

" You didn't bring [the thought] about, so how can you drop what you

didn't cause? In my experience, we don't make thoughts appear, they

just appear. One day I noticed that their appearance just wasn't

personal. " (p. 52)

" Thoughts lose their power over us when we realize that we aren't

doing the thinking anyway. Thoughts simply appear in the mind. What

if there is no thinker? " (p. 235)

" As for my being your projection, how else could I be here? It's not

as though I had a choice. I am the story of who you think I am, not

who I really am. " (p. 239)

Other -isms point to the same thing:

" Do the work for the love of peace, the love of truth, the love of

reality...not to get rid of the pain. "

" Nothing has ever existed...and never will. It's all a dream. "

" Trying is the illusion that you're the doer. "

" We don't drop concepts...they drop us. "

" We don't have to know what to do...we're directed. "

" The Work is the collapse of time. "

" No one can drop a thought. Investigate and the thought will drop

you. "

Behind, underneath all the " feel good " teaching of The Work I see an

immense reservoir of spiritual insight arising out of a nondualistic

understanding of what is. Apparently you don't see that...yet, and

that's fine. As I read and experience it, much of what

inserts, between the lines seems to point directly to this teaching.

I don't see how the above comments (only a small proportion of them)

can be interpreted in any other way.

The work is about undoing thoughts that give me pain. No

more, no less.

*****To me, this qualification unnecessarily devalues a very powerful

tool for deep insight. It is akin to saying " meditation is about

lowering blood pressure and relaxing the body, no more no less. "

Sure, meditation can have that effect. It may also usher in profound

insights when thought is held in abeyance or seen through. And The

Work can certainly undo thoughts which provoke pain. But I see that

as the tip of the iceberg. The body of that frozen mass is always

there, always inviting one to go deeper, if the inclination arises,

if the passion is sufficient, and if the fear is not prohibitive. As

Tony Parsons, a British teacher of nonduality, says, " What we all

have is a deep longing and a deep fear of the discovery of what we

are, and the mind devises any way it can to avoid this

discovering. The most effective way it avoids awakening is to seek

it. "

The work can't be dangerous, LOL it is only 4 questions! It is all

about getting clear with regard to my beliefs. How silly to have upset

over something I don't even believe or that I find is not even true

for me.

*****The " danger " (and I was writing facetiously to a certain

extent...I personally see The Work as a blessing, actually), is that

one may lose one's self, if inquiry is enaged in sufficiently. But

then one gains heaven. As St. of Siena has written, " All

the way to heaven is heaven. "

I felt compelled to write because there was a time when I was

suspect to all forms of therapy, (I had to go for 6 months and

resisted in many ways, or I thought I did).

*****Therapy is not very effective when one " has to go. " I have

partaken in psychotheraphy for over 20 years now, off and on, with

the same person. The fit is great. She never tells me anything, she

just asks questions and " uh huhs " or smiles cryptically. For me, it

has always been therapy of the highest order, allowing the truth to

arise naturally, at its own pace, in its own time.

In the 70's there were more Esalen trips and guru sittings and

courses in college that one could take just on Hobbits alone! They

too became a " religion " . I was extremely suspect against anything

that would turn me into a flakey/fakey zombie. and the work

came to me at a time when I felt great pain. And with very little

effort or zombie-dom I was able to lose those silly thoughts.

*****Yes, The Work seems to be good at that. But that is merely the

surface. And it is fine to stop there. I'm in no way suggesting one

need go further. But if the desire is there, and the inquiry is

persued beyond one's issues with upset and pain, to the nature and

origination of all thought (including the thought of a self), one may

find the bottom dropping out of all that one holds dear (one's

self). That is all that my post was suggesting.

Therapy left me feeling " damaged " , " in need of repair " , " in need of

intervention by someone else... "

*****Dear April, I'm sorry to hear that. Sounds like you got into

some bad therapy. I've seen that happen lots of time. Just not the

right mix, between therapist and client. It's all in the fit. Even

a rock will do, if it listens quietly enough. ;-)

~ Hugs ~

January 7, 2004

>

> And yet, The Work can be insidious too. And THIS is the real danger

> in doing The Work!

>

> Persued with passion, engaged in without care for the outcome

> (something that may only happen when one is not in the throes of an

> upset), practiced without dogmatic adherence, investigated

> relentlessly and tirelessly .... The Work may contribute to the

> undermining of the sense of self, may provoke one to realize that

> all which was held to be " my self " was only ... thoughts.

>

> This is the beginning of the unraveling of the skein of the self,

> and the emerging of a sense of peace which is no longer dependent on

> anything " outside " of one's self since, it is now seen that there is

> no outside or inside, there is only It, What IS.

>

> Hi Andy,

> I, too, do not have the story of there

> being any danger in it,

> because even though it, too, is yet another

> story -- as all concepts are --

> when it is time for it to drop, it

> will.

>

> All of it is What Is.

*****No question about it " CK. " But, unless I'm reading you wrong

above, you TOO missed the point, the joke behind " the danger in The

Work. " It was said tongue-deeply-embedded-in-cheek!

Personally I think that is the ultimate strength of any type of

unrelenting inquiry, whether in the form of The Work, open-ended

dialogue (with a True Friend, wink, wink), meditation,

psychotheraphy...all may eventually, if pursued deeply enough, allow

for the dropping away of the stories which help to construct the

illusory sense of self.

In using the term " danger " I was suggesting that there are those who

desperately do NOT want that outcome. They simply want to feel

better, stop the pain, ease the apparent suffering. That is

sufficient for them. And The Work appears to be very good at that

(for certain people). If one of these folks continues donig The Work

on ALL thoughts, they may find the bottom dropping out, unexpectedly

( " the danger " ), and the LAST thing they desire is the deconstruction

of the sense of self. Perhaps,however, they may find such seeing-

through a blessing.

January 7, 2004

it is my understanding that as kt has said, the work is no thing - it is

inquiry, a looking at, and it comes alive within us, mind meeting mind, the

partner to our story - no story, no world - no thing survives inquiry - inquiry

unravels - no story, no self. it is not the work that is insidious, it is our

story, and not really even that, which is just an innocent child waiting to be

understood. there is nothing insidious - there is only innocence waiting to be

understood and recognised...

Andy wrote:Every effort one makes to " fix " some aspect

of one's self, every

action expended to " undo " upset or confusion, dissatisfaction or

unhappiness, merely entrenches, more and more deeply, the notion that

there exists a self that needs " fixing. "

It's like looking for the eye glasses which are perched on your

nose. The more you look, the more frantic you get as you tear the

house apart, turning over furniture, looking under pillowcases.

Still unable to find them, you become more nad more convinced that

THIS time you've *really* lost them! Are they really lost at all?

Of course not! You're wearing them!! There was a *thought* that

they were lost; not a reality that such was the case. The entire

search, the upheaval of turning the house inside out, all that

effort, and...for what? In a vain and pointless effort to locate the

glasses that were never lost (but were thought to be).

It is the same with " fixing " the self (efforts at making it happier,

saner, more centered, however one defines " fixing " ). Since there is

no self present to be " fixed, " (nor was there ever!) the entire

notion, all the activity which arose from the mistaken belief, is

futile, pointless, and hopeless.

But frequently, this can't be seen or understood while one is in the

midst of emotional turmoil or upset. At times, the winds of life can

blow fiercely, and under those circumstances, the best we can do,

sometimes, is to ride them out, looking for some port that appears to

be safe.

It seems to me that in such instances, The Work may be experienced as