Re: Digest Number 1290/Barbara

[Guest guest]

Hi Barbara,

Thank you so much for your response.

You wrote:

>> I think what might be left out of the equation

is the relevance of " non-acceptance " ~

or even unrecognition ~ of certain traits we all

share as humans. Part of my job is to

clarify which aspects are being disowned: if I

ask a person " Do you ever feel jealous " ?,

and they reply along the lines of: " NO! Never! " ~

depending on the emphasis and intensity of that

retort, I have my answer. <<

Yes, I understand. I can see that.

You wrote:

>> The above is an example of 'denial', but

someone who is more honest and maybe in

touch with their humanity would reply with

replies

like, e.g., " I used to be ... " ;

" sometimes... " ; " I get ENVIOUS.... " ; or plain

and simple " yes " (the degree of response

depends on how much 'shadow stuff' is being

rejected). <<

Yes, I understand that too.

Incidentally, I don't know, but I sometimes think

that so-called spiritual people tend to reject

'shadow stuff' in themselves even more than

others. Some of the spiritual people seem to have

such strong self-images of being kind and

loving...it seems to make them blind to what they

are really like.

You wrote:

>> So it's only the bits we don't want to own

that cause us to react to them in others

so strongly ~ <<

Yes, hmm... so, if I get very angry with a person

because he lied to me (for instance), it is

because I also lie sometimes, but cannot see or

accept that in myself? Is that right?

You wrote:

>>... or if they are recognised as 'being like'

or reminding us of someone in the past who had

great influence upon us (anyone who adopted a

power role (or misused that position) in our

life is usually the most common trigger)<<

So, when my boyfriend has certain traits that my

father also had, I may become very mad at my

boyfriend...although, in reality, it would be

more true to say that I am mad at my father?

You wrote:

>>... but if it is a parent, we may even possibly

'act out' some disliked traits with others, but

not see it at all, as to survive sometimes,

people need to 'go blind' to their perceived

failings. <<

This is something that I don't fully understand.

If you have the time, I should be grateful, if

you could explain it to me in more detail.

You wrote:

>> Does that help? :-) >>

Yes, and thank you very much.

Kind regards,

Eva- beth

Message: 11

Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 10:13:50 +0100 (CET)

Subject: Re: Digest Number 1290 /

Hi ,

I don't really understand what you are saying

here.

I can see that other people are sometimes

self-righteous... and I can see that I am

sometimes self-righteous. It is a little easier

to see it in others, though

That's one of the reasons why " The Work " and

especially the Turn-Arounds are so useful. It

always reminds us that we have that trait,

which

we observed in someone else, too!

Eckhart Tolle says that there is only ONE human

mind. The human mind is collective, so to

speak.

So, this certainly explains why we are all

pretty

much the same.

Elli

--- Olli 26 schrieb:

---------------------------------

Well, it does not matter what says.

You are not my eyes, but rather my mirror: I

can

find in myself what I

see in you - if I look for it.

So if I find you ritghteous I may find that in

myself, too.

Love,

___________________________________________________________

BT Yahoo! Broadband - Free modem offer, sign up

online today and save £80

http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk

---------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Hi again Eva-Marie,

Re your point below on :

" I sometimes think

> that so-called spiritual people tend to reject

> 'shadow stuff' in themselves even more than

> others. Some of the spiritual people seem to have

> such strong self-images of being kind and

> loving...it seems to make them blind to what they

> are really like. "

I can't know this is true, but it seems, from my experience anyway, that,

feeling they have found an " answer " to the meaning of THEIR life, it gives a

false sense of superiority (often found in people with inferiority complexes,

who are looking for just such a 'get out'). An 'above it all " attitude of

lofty self-righteousness often seems to come from an disempowering childhood

(maybe). It's delusional (we all have them!) and it's a coping

mechanism/survival tactic: we literally have to go blind to survive what we

think is out to attack us... like a rabbit frozen in a car headlight ...

except we get frozen in opening to other possibilities it seems.

Your other point :

"

> Yes, hmm... so, if I get very angry with a person

> because he lied to me (for instance), it is

> because I also lie sometimes, but cannot see or

> accept that in myself? Is that right? "

It could be many things ~ but ultimately it is the choice of the person to

'lie', but your choice to get 'angry' about it. Accepting 'what is' is

accepting that that person is not particularly interested in honesty (which is

fine), but to think they should change is coming from our belief WE

are honest (and others should be also); you know you lie sometimes ... so you

are more honest with yourself than most ~ over someone who

THINKS they are honest. We are all jealous, devious, manipulative, kind,

unkind, etc., to some degree, at some point, in some situations (even if

only once), it's the 'degree' that matters, and the self-acceptance/forgiveness

of our being human which leads to acceptance of others. [And I'm

sure we have all met people like that in our life and recognised that about them

.... maybe Kt's one of them? (I don't know).]

So, yes, you are 'acting out' a drama with your b/friend that is dealing with

your relationship with your father. Life offers these opportunities all

the time, because we attract people and situations because they resonate with

what we need to 'deal with'. Patterns of behaviour, response and

beliefs that need to be 'turned around'. Everyone is a mirror; life is a

mirror. Extreme example: if you suffer from self-hatred, you tend to hate

others easily, and if you perceive that other's hate you; you tend to think

they're right and hate yourself (but really it's always just about how you

feel about yourself, as you can't know what another is thinking ~ even by their

actions). So if someone attacks you verbally or physically, it is

always about the 'projection' they made of their thoughts about themself.

Dunno if that's as clear as mud, or ....

Hope someone else can add to all this ?

Regards, Barbara

> >> Does that help? :-) >>

>

> Yes, and thank you very much.

>

> Kind regards,

> Eva- beth

>

>

> Message: 11

>

>

> Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 10:13:50 +0100 (CET)

>

>

> From: Elli <mysteryoflife03@y...>

>

>

> Subject: Re: Digest Number 1290 /

>

>

>

> Hi ,

>

>

>

> I don't really understand what you are saying

>

>

> here.

>

>

>

> I can see that other people are sometimes

>

>

> self-righteous... and I can see that I am

>

>

> sometimes self-righteous. It is a little easier

>

>

> to see it in others, though

>

>

>

> That's one of the reasons why " The Work " and

>

>

> especially the Turn-Arounds are so useful. It

>

>

> always reminds us that we have that trait,

> which

>

>

> we observed in someone else, too!

[Guest guest]

You may find " The Dark Side of the Light Chasers " by Debbie Ford a

good intro to Jung's idea of the shadow. To face and accept our

shadow really takes self-acceptance - denial, justification,

judgements - the false ego goes into hyperdrive! Tim

[Guest guest]

On Sun, Feb 08, 2004 at 01:27:47PM -0000, dee_barbara_mckellar wrote:

> ...

> yourself, as you can't know what another is thinking ~ even by their

> actions). So if someone attacks you verbally or physically, it is

> always about the 'projection' they made of their thoughts about

> themself.

>

> Dunno if that's as clear as mud, or ....

>

> Hope someone else can add to all this ?

Hi, Barbara. I think you're doing great. Your words remind me of a

meeting I was in a couple of months ago at work. At the time, my work

group consisted of eight guys, including the supervisor. There had

been a conflict going on between the supervisor and one of the newer

group members and the supervisor called this meeting. My perception

during the meeting was that he was trying to clear the air, get

everyone's feelings out in the open, and clear things up so the group

could move forward. I tried to be as present as I could, responding as

honestly as I knew how, and offering ideas as they came to me.

The meeting ended when the supervisor and the new group member locked

horns over what was to be discussed next. The new member seemed to

feel he had been accused unjustly and wanted to defend himself, but

the supervisor said he was not willing to discuss that particular

issue further and got up and left the room.

Later, talking to other members of the group, they told me that they

had all felt attacked by the supervisor in the meeting. I wondered if

I had not felt attacked because I was projecting something different.

They also questioned his intentions in calling the meeting. It seemed

clear to me that he had gone into the meeting with the best of

intentions. Now I'm thinking that perhaps that was my projection also.

Thanks for being here, Barbara and Elli. I appreciate the

contributions both of you make.

love,

Tom

[Guest guest]

> Later, talking to other members of the group, they told me that they

> had all felt attacked by the supervisor in the meeting. I wondered if

> I had not felt attacked because I was projecting something different.

> They also questioned his intentions in calling the meeting. It seemed

> clear to me that he had gone into the meeting with the best of

> intentions. Now I'm thinking that perhaps that was my projection also.

>

> Thanks for being here, Barbara and Elli. I appreciate the

> contributions both of you make.

>

> love,

> Tom

Dear Tom,

When I read this I think your projector must be pretty clean, yes?!

That *Loving What Is* Windex really works well...(smile)

I think you are doing great too.

love,

nne

[Guest guest]

Hi again Barbara,

Thanks a lot for your further explanations.

I understood most of it and I think that you are

correct.

In the end you wrote:

>> So if someone attacks you verbally or

physically, it is always about the 'projection'

they made of their thoughts about themself. <<

So, would it be true to say that " projection "

always goes along with negative feelings like

anger or hatred? And when there are no negative

feelings involved, there is no projection?

For instance, if someone tells me that I am

unkind or rude, that could well be true, right?

It is possible that I really am unkind or rude.

(In fact, I know that I am sometimes unkind and

rude.) So, he didn't just " project " that into me,

right?

But if he is upset or angry with me, because he

feels that I am unkind or rude, then he is

projecting?

Kind regards,

Eva Elli

Mit schönen Grüßen von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de

[Guest guest]

I believe both things may happen at the same time. The person projects what is

inside of him/her and also may reflect what is inside you. At the time of the

judgement, whether it be from you to another person or to from from someone

else, go inside and see if you can find it in yourself.

So if I judge you are dishonest, can I find it in myself.

If you judge me as being dishonest, can I find it in myself.

In both cases I may or may not be able to find it in myself and if it stresses

me either way, I do the work.

If I say you are projecting what is inside you then in fact I am judging you as

dishonest. It's also a way of avoiding looking at yourself, and not honoring

the lesson ie what the other person, your mirror, is saying about you.

What is inside you I have no idea so I can not know if you are projecting. It's

always about me.

Doreen

Elli wrote:

Hi again Barbara,

Thanks a lot for your further explanations.

I understood most of it and I think that you are

correct.

In the end you wrote:

>> So if someone attacks you verbally or

physically, it is always about the 'projection'

they made of their thoughts about themself. <<

So, would it be true to say that " projection "

always goes along with negative feelings like

anger or hatred? And when there are no negative

feelings involved, there is no projection?

For instance, if someone tells me that I am

unkind or rude, that could well be true, right?

It is possible that I really am unkind or rude.

(In fact, I know that I am sometimes unkind and

rude.) So, he didn't just " project " that into me,

right?

But if he is upset or angry with me, because he

feels that I am unkind or rude, then he is

projecting?

Kind regards,

Eva Elli

Mit schönen Grüßen von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de

[Guest guest]

Hi Eva Elli, and Doreen,

It has been my experience that projection can be either negative or positive.

In that

we also see positive disowned traits in others (hero worship is a good example

of this).

Your second question is much harder to define...as what might be rude or unkind

in

one person's book, is just shrugged off by another. Sometimes when we are

feeling

'sensitive' a chance remark can be seen in a different light and offence will

be taken,

whilst when we are not feeling so edgy, anything anyone says will be taken in

good

spirit and put down to 'their nature' being what it is. (Accepting what is).

We are all unkind and rude at some point ... but we usually know when

(occasionally

we might get into difficulties by realising that our words could be

misintepreted

however, but again, that's still not a deliberate act). Although maybe

sometimes it

can be a Freudian slip ~ because we would really like to speak our mind, but are

afraid to do so consciously ~ but we will be aware of our feelings towards the

individual and whether they are a fair estimation or not won't come into it if

we are

projecting our disowned traits. This stuff if really hard to do when we are in

the

midst of a mighty projection ! The ego fights like mad to retain control...

I can't know what is going on for your b/friend, or the dynamic between you, but

I

pondered on this: if he feels he has to keep telling you that you are unkind or

rude,

isn't he falling into his own projection? (By telling you that YOU are such, is

he not

being unkind and rude himself?). So I would imagine it is projection, but

that's just a

guess because you would need to engage a mediator or 'do your own work' on this

one.

Very best wishes, Barbara

I believe both things may happen at the

same time. The person projects what is

inside of him/her and also may reflect

what is inside you. At the time of the

judgement, whether it be from you to

another person or to from from someone

else, go inside and see if you can find it

in yourself.

So if I judge you are dishonest, can I

find it in myself.

If you judge me as being dishonest, can I

find it in myself.

In both cases I may or may not be able to

find it in myself and if it stresses

me either way, I do the work.

If I say you are projecting what is inside

you then in fact I am judging you as

dishonest. It's also a way of avoiding

looking at yourself, and not honoring

the lesson ie what the other person, your

mirror, is saying about you.

What is inside you I have no idea so I can

not know if you are projecting. It's

always about me.

Doreen

[Guest guest]

Hi Barbara,

Thank you for your reply. This is very

interesting.

You wrote:

>> It has been my experience that projection can

be either negative or positive. In that

we also see positive disowned traits in others

(hero worship is a good example of this). <<

Wow, yes, that may well be true... I think you

are right.

You wrote:

>> Your second question is much harder to

define...as what might be rude or unkind in

one person's book, is just shrugged off by

another. Sometimes when we are feeling

'sensitive' a chance remark can be seen in a

different light and offence will be taken,

whilst when we are not feeling so edgy, anything

anyone says will be taken in good

spirit and put down to 'their nature' being what

it is. (Accepting what is). <<

Yes, I agree.

You wrote:

>> I can't know what is going on for your

b/friend, or the dynamic between you, but I

pondered on this: if he feels he has to keep

telling you that you are unkind or rude,

isn't he falling into his own projection? (By

telling you that YOU are such, is he not

being unkind and rude himself?). So I would

imagine it is projection, but that's just a

guess because you would need to engage a mediator

or 'do your own work' on this one. <<

Thank you, Barbara. :-)

Best wishes from

Eva Elli

Mit schönen Grüßen von Yahoo! Mail - http://mail.yahoo.de