Re: Parents, detatched circles, power of the adult-like child within...

[Guest guest]

Hi KO's and anybody else out there in Kansas and esp. cntbreathe:

Well, I walked into therapy yesterday, all overflowing because I had

given myself permission to evict nada from my head. I explained how

I had been searching all this time to find some way to be a full

circle and not intersect.

Instead of lots of joy, my therapist says that by sending a letter

to my godmother to butt out, etc. that I was actually reinforcing

her behavior with negative consequences. She asked me to consider,

that for now, I just focus on my own circle. I shouldn't even be

intersecting (which doesn't fit my perspective currently Re: circles

and interraction) right now. She encouraged me to think more

specifically about not intersecting at all. I might consider my own

circle disconnected from nada's with only messages sent between us

as a safer way of thinking.

Her long-term goal and mine is to jump-start my life and get my own

image of who I am. Every week, I discuss more about nada than I do

about me. Her concern is that, to fit the mother May pole analogy,

I'm still circling the May pole, but perhaps more slowly and maybe

in reverse direction. I'm still focused on her, desperately

searching for a new mirror. I get sucky reflections from all kinds

of places, especially from a culture where I did not blend at all

(not that I really did anyway.) I've shifted from nada to the

church, to the cult, to my jobs, to my doctors, and even this group

to find a reflection of my identity. I can quote what others have

said, but I don't personally have much of an opinion, save to absorb

someone else's about me or about themselves.

Her other admonishment was again that my problem is not cognitive.

It's not dissociation. It's my own skewed perspective about who I

am. The overreacting to her about my meds shows that much anger

lurks beneath the surface. (She said something that I took offense

to about 3 wks ago and brought it up that following week. She

wanted to revisit that, and we hashed out what it felt like to

overreact. Guess what it reflected? I am sensitive to omniscience

(what I perceive is like omniscience) in an authority figure. She

used the term " deification " but I equate that to Edith's quote from

Bradshaw about " demythologizing " or demystification or what ever it

was. (All terms fall in the same realm.) My reaction to the desire

for omniscience indicates that it is something I want or am jealous

over. I wholeheartedly agree as that's what appeals to me about the

adult-child thing. Inside knowledge. Superior status. Power.

Very interesting. Now I'm very deflated all at once, thinking that

I am less further along the path than I thought. My therapist is

off for Christmas. (I don't envy her job after the holidays --

assuming that most off=balance people experience the same junk.

Oh, about relating to nada: She used the analogy of a sliding

board. It's like I begrugingly inch my way over to it, uncertain

about whether I'm going to climb, sit or if I will make it to the

bottom. The sliding is inevitable if I'm scaling the ladder. The

sliding is unavoidable if I step onto the slide and sit. It's naive

to believe or question whether or not I will slide to the bottom

with nada. Better for me to stay away from the slide and avoid

dangerous potential.

Well, how does that help me relate to nada? This is rough...

Any thoughts?

cindyk

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Sorry the therapy session wasn't good. I'm struggling with the same

kind of feelings. I don't have any answers - but I've put a few

thoughts about what you wrote below.

eclecticandobscure wrote:

>

> Well, I walked into therapy yesterday, all overflowing because I

had

> given myself permission to evict nada from my head. I explained

how

> I had been searching all this time to find some way to be a full

> circle and not intersect.

** I also want eventually to have this - a way to interact with nada

and still keep myself whole. I tried couples therapy with nada - and

found I was in no place to do this. She was unwilling to do anything

to help the relationship - and I found I was too angry to move

forward at this time. Part of me hopes in the future I may be ready -

and part of me thinks maybe nc is best.

> I shouldn't even be

> intersecting (which doesn't fit my perspective currently Re:

circles

> and interraction) right now. She encouraged me to think more

> specifically about not intersecting at all. I might consider my

own

> circle disconnected from nada's with only messages sent between us

> as a safer way of thinking.

**I had to do this. Because I still react so strongly to nada

pushing my buttons. Just being in the same room with her is a

nervewracking experience for me. I told my therapist that I have

decided to take a 6-month (and the time frame may change) vacation

from nada - and just work on myself - maybe then I can work on

intersecting while keeping myself whole. Is this what your therapist

is saying - or is she suggesting no contact ever?

> Her long-term goal and mine is to jump-start my life and get my own

> image of who I am. Every week, I discuss more about nada than I do

> about me.

**I do the same thing. I have discussed this with my therapist - and

we are going to try to focus more on me - I bought the SWOE workbook

and we are going to do it together. Hopefully, while this includes

nada in my head and speech - the focus will be on the changes I want

to make.

> Her concern is that, to fit the mother May pole analogy,

> I'm still circling the May pole, but perhaps more slowly and maybe

> in reverse direction. I'm still focused on her, desperately

> searching for a new mirror. I get sucky reflections from all kinds

> of places, especially from a culture where I did not blend at all

> (not that I really did anyway.) I've shifted from nada to the

> church, to the cult, to my jobs, to my doctors, and even this group

> to find a reflection of my identity. I can quote what others have

> said, but I don't personally have much of an opinion, save to

absorb

> someone else's about me or about themselves.

**I think this take a lot of time - it does for me. Be patient with

yourself (i find that most difficult - patience is not a strong suit -

but I keep working at it)

> Her other admonishment was again that my problem is not cognitive.

> It's not dissociation. It's my own skewed perspective about who I

> am.

**After years of nada brainwashing I'm not surprised by the skewed

perspective - I hope you and your therapist can spend more time on

you and help you discover yourself.

> Very interesting. Now I'm very deflated all at once, thinking that

> I am less further along the path than I thought. My therapist is

> off for Christmas. (I don't envy her job after the holidays --

> assuming that most off=balance people experience the same junk.

*Maybe not less further along the path - just deciding to take a

different unknown path - kind of scary - but hopefully the right path

for you.

> Oh, about relating to nada: She used the analogy of a sliding

> board. It's like I begrugingly inch my way over to it, uncertain

> about whether I'm going to climb, sit or if I will make it to the

> bottom. The sliding is inevitable if I'm scaling the ladder. The

> sliding is unavoidable if I step onto the slide and sit. It's

naive

> to believe or question whether or not I will slide to the bottom

> with nada. Better for me to stay away from the slide and avoid

> dangerous potential.

**That's how I feel. Because I cannot react in a manner I'm

comfortable with - I don't trust myself to be around nada. I don't

help the situation and I don't help myself - and end up falling on my

butt as I come off the slide. That's why I think it's so important

to work on me first - and then if I'm strong enough - the

relationship with nada.

> Well, how does that help me relate to nada? This is rough...

>

> Any thoughts?

**I hope you find a way to work on this that is comfortable (as

comfortable as any of this can be) for you. You have to take care of

yourself first - and that may mean staying away from nada for now.

Just because you work on yourself first - doesn't mean that you have

to sever the relationship forever. I think of it as kind of an

airplane emerency lecture at the beginning of the flight - where they

tell you to secure your own oxygen mask before helping children. If

you aren't taking care of yourself first - helping others can be

detrimental to you. You have time to do both.

Take care,

kath

> cindyk

[Guest guest]

Dear Kath,

Thanks for the encouragement. Especially when Christmas and the

bizzare expectations for it are running high, and mine low, it seems

we all get an extra dose of things.

My mother pouts like a child because I've put reasonable limits on

how we interract. Her brain can't compute them so she looks to me

to parent her by giving her what she wants. I'm so sick of it.

>

> Sorry the therapy session wasn't good.

>

~~~~~~~I believe that I did have a good session. As you say, it

just took me somewhere that I didn't anticipate. Lately, I've been

venting in a grand emotional catharsis most every session.

(Emotional catharsis doesn't quite explain the similarities to

vomiting poison and anger...) I must be stronger, because the

therapist redirected me back to the subject of myself instead of

what seemed like several weeks of validation and comforting from

her. I definitely don't like the subject of me in general, and it's

uncomfortable. I'd rather focus on performance or effects.

>>> Because I still react so strongly to nada pushing my buttons.

>>> Just being in the same room with her is a nervewracking

>>> experience for me.

~~~~~I keep hearing nada's intermediaries asking me to call more

often and keep things light. Funny thing of it is that I can't

recall ever feeling at peace since I let loose at her just after I

turned 21. Well, I did have it out with her when I was 18 as well.

Since I've broken the family code of honor, I've been dancing around

her ever since. So when these people make this request of me, it's

like going back and trying to reclaim breath that I expired long

ago. I can't take much of anything anymore, and I couldn't manage

to go back to that mindset again. I've been to crushed by her.

>>> I told my therapist that I have decided to take a 6-month (and

>>> the time frame may change) vacation from nada - and just work

>>> on myself - maybe then I can work on intersecting while keeping

>>> myself whole. Is this what your therapist is saying - or is

>>> she suggesting no contact ever?

~~~~~~Oh, no. She says that I should maintain brief interraction

with her and keep a safe degree of emotional distance. I have no

idea how to do that. I really don't like to have conversations that

aren't that deep. The superficial stuff seems like a cover. Guess

I have to learn.

?? How are you going to tell nada that you're going on sabbatical

from her?? I would love to do this, but bridging that gap after a

long period of contact seems all the more difficult from this side

of the fence. What rationale could explain your total lack of

contact? Literal self-injury with extreme depersonalization

(suicide overtures without any feelings engaged) doesn't seem

reasonable enough for my nada to explain my limited contact. I'm

only doing that out of duty and committment to myself to learn to

tolerate her. Perhaps the concept of my near-total life paralysis

would be more significant to her? Who am I kidding? Nothing will

ever be adequate. If you figure out how to manage it, let me know.

>

> **After years of nada brainwashing I'm not surprised by the skewed

> perspective - I hope you and your therapist can spend more time on

> you and help you discover yourself.

>

>

~~~~~~Every time I seem to make a little progress, nada gets some

weird new problem, or something awful happens to me so that I seek

her out for support. But that support was only sought under the

assumption that she had changed. I know now that she's more whacked

than ever. I can see that I've even neglected care of my own

physical body, let alone care for my psyche. If I couldn't pray and

sing, I would loose it. Seems that way, anyway. Guess I've made it

this far so that should be encouraging.

> **That's how I feel. Because I cannot react in a manner I'm

> comfortable with - I don't trust myself to be around nada. I

don't

> help the situation and I don't help myself - and end up falling on

my

> butt as I come off the slide.

~~~~~~~So do we stay in the playground and call to the slide without

getting hoovered into climbing back up on the slide? If that's the

case, how do I manage that in real life when I can't even take a

phone call?

> I think of it as kind of an

> airplane emerency lecture at the beginning of the flight - where

they

> tell you to secure your own oxygen mask before helping children.

If

> you aren't taking care of yourself first - helping others can be

> detrimental to you. You have time to do both.

~~~~I hope that I do indeed have time for both, and I feel like I'm

of little help to anyone at this point. I may choose to not help

anyone again. It feels like I've done several lifetimes of it

already. Trouble is with the plane analogy, I've been in an

emergency holding pattern for a long time, and I've been associating

with people who must want to die more than breathe.

No easy answers.

Thanks for suffering through this with me, all of you.

K

[Guest guest]

eclecticandobscure wrote:

>

> ~~~~~~~I believe that I did have a good session. As you say, it

> just took me somewhere that I didn't anticipate. Lately, I've been

> venting in a grand emotional catharsis most every session.

> (Emotional catharsis doesn't quite explain the similarities to

> vomiting poison and anger...) I must be stronger, because the

> therapist redirected me back to the subject of myself instead of

> what seemed like several weeks of validation and comforting from

> her. I definitely don't like the subject of me in general, and

it's

> uncomfortable. I'd rather focus on performance or effects.

** maybe frustrating would have been a better word. It's hard when

you try hard to make progress and then feel you may have been moving

in the right direction.

It is hard to talk about ourselves - it's easier for me to talk about

nada too - but I'm trying to focus on me - because that's where the

change has to happen. I find it hard to answer questions about

myself - I've found myself searching for answers when the therapist

asks me something - I hate to say I don't know - sometimes I have to

go back the next week and tell her what I really think after having

time to think about it. I've been known to come up with an answer I

think is " correct " or what the therapist wants to hear (lifetime of

trying to please) It's been a huge growth step for me to admit that

my response wasn't totally accurate and to then explain my true

feelings. Of course, it would be better to say what I think right

away - or I don't know - let me think about it. But I'm working on

it.

> >>> Because I still react so strongly to nada pushing my buttons.

> >>> Just being in the same room with her is a nervewracking

> >>> experience for me.

>

> ~~~~~I keep hearing nada's intermediaries asking me to call more

> often and keep things light. Funny thing of it is that I can't

> recall ever feeling at peace since I let loose at her just after I

> turned 21. Well, I did have it out with her when I was 18 as

well.

> Since I've broken the family code of honor, I've been dancing

around

> her ever since. So when these people make this request of me, it's

> like going back and trying to reclaim breath that I expired long

> ago. I can't take much of anything anymore, and I couldn't manage

> to go back to that mindset again. I've been to crushed by her.

** I think you have to ignore those intermediaries - I've just

started saying " I can't do that right now " with no explanation. It

doesn't always work - but I refuse to explain myself to people who

are trying to fix it without understanding my pain, frustration. The

biggest person in my life who does this is my dad. He is generally

supportive - but he wants to " fix " things - his role in this mess. I

have told him not to relay messages or try to fix it - and that I

have stopped giving him reasons - because in weak moments he shares

these with nada - thinking logic will help - and that makes it

worse. It's hard for him - but he's quit asking - most of the time.

> ~~~~~~Oh, no. She says that I should maintain brief interraction

> with her and keep a safe degree of emotional distance. I have no

> idea how to do that. I really don't like to have conversations

that

> aren't that deep. The superficial stuff seems like a cover. Guess

> I have to learn.

**I don't know how to do that either. I tried and decided that for

me that just didn't work. I had to give myself permission to care

about me first - and I still struggle with that a lot. Christmas is

coming - and I'm still unsure what I will do then. A lot of family

pressure.

> ?? How are you going to tell nada that you're going on sabbatical

> from her?? I would love to do this, but bridging that gap after a

> long period of contact seems all the more difficult from this side

> of the fence. What rationale could explain your total lack of

> contact? Literal self-injury with extreme depersonalization

> (suicide overtures without any feelings engaged) doesn't seem

> reasonable enough for my nada to explain my limited contact. I'm

> only doing that out of duty and committment to myself to learn to

> tolerate her. Perhaps the concept of my near-total life paralysis

> would be more significant to her? Who am I kidding? Nothing will

> ever be adequate. If you figure out how to manage it, let me know.

**i haven't decided if I'm going to tell her at all. I know I don't

want to call her - because phone calls never end well. I thought

about writing a note - but it wouldn't come out right. Right now

I've just disengaged and am not returning phone calls (though that

has been easy - since our final therapy session together - she hasn't

contacted me - but I doubt that will last) I feel I should let her

know - but I may not. Very confused here. If I do tell her - I

won't give a reason except for this is best for me right now.

Because you're right - any explanation won't be good enough - so I'm

not going to get into it with her. (At least these are my goals -

we'll see if I can do it)

> ~~~~~~Every time I seem to make a little progress, nada gets some

> weird new problem, or something awful happens to me so that I seek

> her out for support. But that support was only sought under the

> assumption that she had changed. I know now that she's more

whacked

> than ever. I can see that I've even neglected care of my own

> physical body, let alone care for my psyche. If I couldn't pray

and

> sing, I would loose it. Seems that way, anyway. Guess I've made

it

> this far so that should be encouraging.

**Yes - you have made it this far - be proud of yourself - this is

not an easy journey! I'm glad you have prayer and song to make you

feel better. We all need something for ourselves - I have yoga

(which in times of extreme stress - like lately - I tend to not do

it - just too exhausted - have to make myself start again - and then

enjoy the benefits).

> > **That's how I feel. Because I cannot react in a manner I'm

> > comfortable with - I don't trust myself to be around nada. I

> don't

> > help the situation and I don't help myself - and end up falling

on

> my

> > butt as I come off the slide.

>

> ~~~~~~~So do we stay in the playground and call to the slide

without

> getting hoovered into climbing back up on the slide? If that's the

> case, how do I manage that in real life when I can't even take a

> phone call?

**Great questions - wish I knew. maybe someone else can help us both

out here - I can't handle a phone call either.

>

> ~~~~I hope that I do indeed have time for both, and I feel like I'm

> of little help to anyone at this point. I may choose to not help

> anyone again. It feels like I've done several lifetimes of it

> already. Trouble is with the plane analogy, I've been in an

> emergency holding pattern for a long time, and I've been

associating

> with people who must want to die more than breathe.

**At this point - you must take care of yourself. And I hope in time

that the pain recedes and you can get out of the holding pattern.

And you are reaching out here - which helps those in similar

circumstances. I think the hard part here is that if they choose to

die rather than breathe - that's their choice. You can only offer a

helping hand - and if they refuse it - it's their choice. I'm

reminded of the lighthouse analogy in one of the books - they get

jumbled in my mind. You can be a lighthouse - but the ships - to

save themselves must heed the warning - you can't do it all for them.

> No easy answers.

**you're right - wish I could help more. But my thoughts are with

you during this time.

Take care,

Kath

>

> Thanks for suffering through this with me, all of you.

>

> K