Re: KO s in relationships with other PD KO ???

[Guest guest]

Sylvia,

Yeah, I know where you are coming from. Well I can say out

of all his flaws he has stopped putting his hands on me. Its been about

maybe ten months. He took some anger managment courses and a couple other

things.

But I am still having a hard time just " forgetting " that abuse . Whenever

he does or says something new that hurts and angers me I remember it all

vividly. I dont know if thats normal to do or not. I dont just dont know. There

are still times I have cried to just think of the past things . Maybe I am

being unfair to throw that card out when I am upset , since he has done things

and gotten help to stop it. I dont know. I guess maybe it will always be in the

back of my mind that theres a chance no matter how remote it could happen

again and that surfaces with hurt and pain over other things.

He does still do the name calling, here is my favorite, " For such a

smart women , you say the most stupid things " every time I disagree with him on

anything from religion to politics. The he says, " Its not like I called you

stupid! " UGHHHHHH He has a real passive aggressive way to sting the hell

outta me.

And I feel so sad because I know everytime we begim to get really close

he is going to erupt in some tantrum and throw things and yell and call names

because he cant take the intimacy. THough last time he did that I packed his

bags and told him to get out if he is going to conduct himself like that in

front our daughter.

He decided talking things out in a calm and peacfull manner would be

preferable to sleeping in a hotel or car. I dont know if packing his stuff was

the right thing to do or not? But it seemed to work.

Its like I said there are two very different sides to him that I dont know

if Ill ever figure him out. And Im no perfect peach either. I wonder if

people with fleas or disorders just gravitate towards each other? We are both

good people but so screwed up by our childhoods and we have a common ground in

that. I have dated other guys from Ozzy and Harriet families and couldnt click

with them or sometimes they with me because our worlds were so different and

we couldnt understand where the other was coming from with our very diff

backgrounds. Or sometimes I would date a guy and as soon as his Family Ties

family asked him about my family and saw how messed up it was they would urge

their sons to " go find a nice girl from a nice family " . Even if they liked me

, they just didnt even want an association with their son havinng screwed up

in laws one day or bringing chaos into the family. Which always made me feel

even more like damaged goods.

Thats where me and my siblings have a strained relationship. It will be

spoken in quiet whispers between us about how screwed our family was but they

will act the part like it was a great family to outsiders so no one will

think they are damaged goods. ( the damaged goods actually were my older

sisters

words ) But I throw a big ole wrench in that because I dont pretend like we

had a great family and the absence of me gives life to ideas that maybe

things were not as " normal " as they would like people to think.

I am curios if other KOs have found themselves with PD people or KOs too

because you dont feel like " normal " people will understand you? Or if anyone

else has encountered prejeduce just because you come from a dysfunctional

family?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/24/2004 9:40:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

growingperson@... writes:

Kit,

I can relate to so much of what you say. I get really depressed to

when the BPDs in my play games with me. I wish I could feel different about

it when they mess with my head but I dont, not even on anti depressants. But

when the BPDs dont feel a need to inflict pain on me to feel more powerfull or

better about myself then I do alot better. Its weird.

On one level I wish I could just control my feelings about what they say

and do but its hard. One is my mother and the other is my husband , the two

people in the world that should be a soft place to land when the outside world

is harsh, the two people most people turn to the most. Then my only sibling I

was close to in age and I could turn to committed suicide and that has made

me super vunerable to the BPDs crueltys.

When my husband found out about my mother he got worse when he is being

the " hatefull side " because he knows I have no where to turn.

I am so confused about my feelings with this situation. I just want the "

nice side " that loves me and cares to just hold me, and be there and be kind

stay that way forever. It really does hurt alot and not having anyone , no

mother, no sister, no aunt since nada told her how awfull I am , to lean on

makes it worse. Then I wonder if maybe I deserve it all, you know on an

emotional level I question if I was just a better human being this stuff wouldnt

happen to me.

Well my husband is still playing games and refusing to be supportive . It

was so hard waiting by the phone for him to just give me one second of his

time , and being dissapointed with each passing second I made up my mind. I

cant be here to hold him up when he needs me or my support. Im barely keeping

myself in check and he doesnt care about my feelings. So I just turned the

ringer off my phone and stuck in the corner of the kitchen.

I wont be tortured every time I wait all day and night for days on end

and the phone does not ring because it cant ring anyway. I guess its childish.

But at least I can imagine maybe he called or cared as oppossing to KNOWING

he doesnt. And you cant go nuts waiting for a phone to ring that wont. And I

guess I will leave it like this for the next six weeks while he is gone.

I told him how much i needed him and how much he is hurting me with these

games and he swore it would stop. I told him what I would do if it didnt

stop. Now I have to follow through with it. because nothing can hurt as much as

I already hurt.

I have a feeling this may all end in a messy divorce and i dont want

that but it takes two. He wont do the marriage therapy, wont go back to self

therapy because the last doc he saw said he was being too resistant and she was

sick of working with him. He wont talk to my therapist. My therapist can only

help me.

but I want to believe that things could get better. Maybe I am holdingn

out for a futile dream. But Ive lived a life of nightmares. I wish he was a

jerk all the time instead of rotating back and forth between jerk and prince

charming . Jerk makes me cry and the prince keeps me hanging on. I dont know.

im just confused Kit.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I can relate to all you say. Me too.

Your comments came up just after I had the insight in my own thinking

over things that it really does make a difference if one is a KO or

not. Then that has to be balanced out with everything else. I am a KO.

My husband is a KO. But he is a BPD too and I'm not. So he isfar more

dysfunctional than I am. But I get sucked in big time because I am a

KO. He really pushes my buttons and I reckon that is how he caught me

in the first place and partly how he keeps me staying now though his

behaviour is so disgustingly awful. I end up feeling so demoralised.

When I start to pick up, or we start getting along in a nice way,

whammo, he wrecks everything with his horrible nastiness and

crassness, stupidity, etc. He says he wants a good relationship (but I

think that means adoring him, sex as and how wanted; and a slave girl

who will do what he says and no bones about it).

I realised when I was 6 yrs old and we went to live in a new town that

my family was different and not good enough. I felt so ashamed and

inferior and down about it. I have carried this sense about myself

since then. I did marry a normal guy first time but I reckon I only

managed to catch him because he was a lonely foreign student abd also

couldn't see through the cultural difference thing how twisted we all

were. He helped me become more normal because he was normal and I got

to live with him and not at home. But my marriage busted up (long

story) because I couldn't be happy living in his country. But I really

loved him and that is hard. The second time round, I was this

heartbroken person and slipped right back into feeling no decent guy

would want me. So I ended up marrying my present husband despite the

warning signs. Only I had no idea how twisted he was. I just thought

he was a KO, not a BPD. I thought he was well meaning and would keep

learning too. Wrong ! That guy is a typical BPD ! He's a very nasty,

peculiar person and I find he makes such a mess of me that I spend

most of my time mopping myself up so I can just survive.

I was thinking about it this morning(it is 11.27 am here in Australia).

I think what I really need is how to remain unperturbed when my

husband does his bad stuff. I am too reactive to him, even if it

doesn't show. I feel so miserable when he just comes in and moans or

criticises or bullies me round a small bit like ignoring that I might

have turned the computer on and telling on of the children to turn it

off, and then asking me if I want to use it when I say I want it left

on. Excuse me !? I hate his twisted stuff . But the big problem is how

I feel so down and confused and anxious as a result of his twisted crap.

I would really appreciate any advice to KOs like us who are extra

vulnerable as well as having the burden of being married to or

partnered by a BPD person. It isn't just about the BPD. We need a

special hand because of our childhood,traumatisation, sensitivities,

poor coping strategies, or whatever. I was wondering if I should join

another group as well as a BPD group. A depression group maybe. Only I

am only depressed after a person abuses me or treats me in a twisted,

bullying or disrespectful way. Then I can get quite sabotaged until I

can repair myself. I would like to fix the basic weakness itself that

lets the bad behaviour get at me.

Kit

> Sylvia,

>

> Yeah, I know where you are coming from. Well I

can say out

> of all his flaws he has stopped putting his hands on me. Its been

about

> maybe ten months. He took some anger managment courses and a couple

other things.

> But I am still having a hard time just " forgetting " that abuse .

Whenever

> he does or says something new that hurts and angers me I remember

it all

> vividly. I dont know if thats normal to do or not. I dont just dont

know. There

> are still times I have cried to just think of the past things .

Maybe I am

> being unfair to throw that card out when I am upset , since he has

done things

> and gotten help to stop it. I dont know. I guess maybe it will

always be in the

> back of my mind that theres a chance no matter how remote it could

happen

> again and that surfaces with hurt and pain over other things.

>

> He does still do the name calling, here is my favorite, " For

such a

> smart women , you say the most stupid things " every time I disagree

with him on

> anything from religion to politics. The he says, " Its not like I

called you

> stupid! " UGHHHHHH He has a real passive aggressive way to sting

the hell

> outta me.

> And I feel so sad because I know everytime we begim to get

really close

> he is going to erupt in some tantrum and throw things and yell and

call names

> because he cant take the intimacy. THough last time he did that I

packed his

> bags and told him to get out if he is going to conduct himself like

that in

> front our daughter.

> He decided talking things out in a calm and peacfull manner

would be

> preferable to sleeping in a hotel or car. I dont know if packing

his stuff was

> the right thing to do or not? But it seemed to work.

>

> Its like I said there are two very different sides to him that I

dont know

> if Ill ever figure him out. And Im no perfect peach either. I wonder

if

> people with fleas or disorders just gravitate towards each other? We

are both

> good people but so screwed up by our childhoods and we have a common

ground in

> that. I have dated other guys from Ozzy and Harriet families and

couldnt click

> with them or sometimes they with me because our worlds were so

different and

> we couldnt understand where the other was coming from with our very

diff

> backgrounds. Or sometimes I would date a guy and as soon as his

Family Ties

> family asked him about my family and saw how messed up it was they

would urge

> their sons to " go find a nice girl from a nice family " . Even if

they liked me

> , they just didnt even want an association with their son havinng

screwed up

> in laws one day or bringing chaos into the family. Which always

made me feel

> even more like damaged goods.

> Thats where me and my siblings have a strained relationship. It

will be

> spoken in quiet whispers between us about how screwed our family was

but they

> will act the part like it was a great family to outsiders so no one

will

> think they are damaged goods. ( the damaged goods actually were my

older sisters

> words ) But I throw a big ole wrench in that because I dont

pretend like we

> had a great family and the absence of me gives life to ideas that

maybe

> things were not as " normal " as they would like people to think.

>

> I am curios if other KOs have found themselves with PD people or

KOs too

> because you dont feel like " normal " people will understand you? Or

if anyone

> else has encountered prejeduce just because you come from a

dysfunctional

> family?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

Yes. It's tough, tough, tough ! I know the awful pain of it too. Not

to mention the confusion. Yikes !

And, cop this, my sister comitted suicide too and she was the only

one in my wretched family who was " normal " and who I clicked with .

She was my lttle sister and I did a lot of the parenting of her

though our parents were around to mess us up and not help.She was my

little princess. So losing her was like losing a child too. Though

when she died we were more like just people with a lot to connect

withthough I guess she leaned on me a bit. I wish I could have been

of more help to her. I was busting a gut trying to get help for her

urgently (she was in another town) when she died. She acted too

quickly for me, almost straight after she got off the phone I think.

I feel guilty or something though I did try as hard as I could.

It is very hard for me too to have these longings for love and

companionship and support, etc. I am probably the last person to give

advice on this, so I won't. But I have found that what has helped me

the most is doing things I enjoy and getting a life for myself. I

have religious and musical interests and I do the garden. And also I

went back to studying in 1995 and am trying to finish off a master's

degree now. I have found the internet to be most useful in one way or

the other. I feel very sorry for people who don't have access to it.

I also read a lot - non fiction, relevant to my personal concerns,

the work I do from home anf to my studies. Oh, yes, and my work from

home. It is an invaluable source of affirmation to me. My husband

didmisses it by saying it is just a hobby. Actually, I could earn a

lot more from it if I could just have the energy to put into it. In

this respect I am still thinking of that word " power " that somebody

brought up recently, advising me not to give it away. I still haven't

thought my way through this one yet.

I don't know how relevant it is generally or to you, but an important

issue to me has been the topic of what love is. I think that, if I

were to understand it better, I might be further advanced in living

my life. Does love really exist ? Can a parent ,a partner, friend, or

child really love us for ourselves, whatever that means?

Another topic, but I don't think it is the same one though it can get

mixed in with it, is how do we decide we are of worth ? I know I am

prone to think I am worthless because I am treated as if I am not.

But this is crazy. Try telling that to my inner head though. Anybody

got any remedies ?

I am still working on reading through the replies in the group. Time

is a problem.

Catch you later.

Kit

>

> In a message dated 7/24/2004 9:40:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> growingperson@y... writes:

>

>

>

>

>

> Kit,

>

> I can relate to so much of what you say. I get really

depressed to

> when the BPDs in my play games with me. I wish I could feel

different about

> it when they mess with my head but I dont, not even on anti

depressants. But

> when the BPDs dont feel a need to inflict pain on me to feel more

powerfull or

> better about myself then I do alot better. Its weird.

>

> On one level I wish I could just control my feelings about what

they say

> and do but its hard. One is my mother and the other is my husband ,

the two

> people in the world that should be a soft place to land when the

outside world

> is harsh, the two people most people turn to the most. Then my only

sibling I

> was close to in age and I could turn to committed suicide and that

has made

> me super vunerable to the BPDs crueltys.

> When my husband found out about my mother he got worse when he

is being

> the " hatefull side " because he knows I have no where to turn.

>

> I am so confused about my feelings with this situation. I just

want the "

> nice side " that loves me and cares to just hold me, and be there

and be kind

> stay that way forever. It really does hurt alot and not having

anyone , no

> mother, no sister, no aunt since nada told her how awfull I am , to

lean on

> makes it worse. Then I wonder if maybe I deserve it all, you know

on an

> emotional level I question if I was just a better human being this

stuff wouldnt

> happen to me.

>

> Well my husband is still playing games and refusing to be

supportive . It

> was so hard waiting by the phone for him to just give me one

second of his

> time , and being dissapointed with each passing second I made up

my mind. I

> cant be here to hold him up when he needs me or my support. Im

barely keeping

> myself in check and he doesnt care about my feelings. So I just

turned the

> ringer off my phone and stuck in the corner of the kitchen.

> I wont be tortured every time I wait all day and night for days

on end

> and the phone does not ring because it cant ring anyway. I guess

its childish.

> But at least I can imagine maybe he called or cared as oppossing

to KNOWING

> he doesnt. And you cant go nuts waiting for a phone to ring that

wont. And I

> guess I will leave it like this for the next six weeks while he is

gone.

> I told him how much i needed him and how much he is hurting me

with these

> games and he swore it would stop. I told him what I would do if it

didnt

> stop. Now I have to follow through with it. because nothing can

hurt as much as

> I already hurt.

>

> I have a feeling this may all end in a messy divorce and i

dont want

> that but it takes two. He wont do the marriage therapy, wont go

back to self

> therapy because the last doc he saw said he was being too resistant

and she was

> sick of working with him. He wont talk to my therapist. My

therapist can only

> help me.

> but I want to believe that things could get better. Maybe I am

holdingn

> out for a futile dream. But Ive lived a life of nightmares. I wish

he was a

> jerk all the time instead of rotating back and forth between jerk

and prince

> charming . Jerk makes me cry and the prince keeps me hanging on.

I dont know.

> im just confused Kit.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

<< I have dated other guys from Ozzy and Harriet families and couldnt

click with them or sometimes they with me because our worlds were so

different and we couldnt understand where the other was coming from

with our very diff backgrounds. >>

I have never been able to believe that someone like that could be

interested in me, so I have isolated myself from them.

In high school I had a girlfriend from an apparently healthy family.

She was sweet and cared about me, and I cared about her. My mother

launched a destruction campaign against her until I cracked and had

to break up. After that I never believed that I had a right to a

healthy relationship.

- Dan

[Guest guest]

Me too, Dan. Already ,while I was in high school, I decided I was not

good enough for normal guys. And recently I came up with the same

thing again when I was speculating about whether I could possibly get

married again if I leave my current husband. A normal guy could not

be satisfied with me. I feel too unable to trot out the right moves

even if I am not a BPD. I would love to have a nice husband who cares

about and values me. But I think it is impossible. And I probably

send out vibes that attract the wrong sort.

Kit

> << I have dated other guys from Ozzy and Harriet families and

couldnt

> click with them or sometimes they with me because our worlds were

so

> different and we couldnt understand where the other was coming

from

> with our very diff backgrounds. >>

>

> I have never been able to believe that someone like that could be

> interested in me, so I have isolated myself from them.

>

> In high school I had a girlfriend from an apparently healthy

family.

> She was sweet and cared about me, and I cared about her. My mother

> launched a destruction campaign against her until I cracked and had

> to break up. After that I never believed that I had a right to a

> healthy relationship.

>

> - Dan

[Guest guest]

>

> In high school I had a girlfriend from an apparently healthy

family. She was sweet and cared about me, and I cared about her. My

mother launched a destruction campaign against her until I cracked

and had to break up. After that I never believed that I had a right

to a healthy relationship.

***Healthy people are quite threatening to unhealthy people, they

are a reminder that the false systems they have built are just that,

false. An illusion and that there ARE other options and choices.

Easier to get rid of the person than be reminded of it on a regular

basis. I mean really, besides that, what if you figured out that all

her crap really wasn't ok or normal? I think that on a deep

subconscious level they instincively know it. Then on our side, we

gravitate towards what is familiar, take the path of least

resistance,..or what APPEARS to be since relationships with healthy

people ARE the real and right kind of paths of least resistance. In

your case the extra trouble from mom is just more than you want to

deal with,..you have enough on your plate with her already without

adding more. This is true in relationships with BDP's also. The NBPD

often disconnects from the healthy relationships in their lives

because it's just easier to not have to deal with the trouble it

causes for them with the BDP. Of course the BDP does it because they

feel threatened by the healthy outside influences,..and for good

reason. If we become isolated, without healthy people and

relationships to bounce off of and compare to, it's much harder to

gauge what is healhty and ok,..especially since many of us already

are in position where we don't have the basic foundation where we

can do that well ourselves to begin with,..because we DON'T know

exactly. I do find it interesting though, something deep inside of

us KNOWS and recognizes healthy people and relationships,..most of

the time anyway. A testament to something really amazing about human

beings,..what exactly that is I couldn't say. Some kind of inborn

seed of truth,..just like the BPD recognizing healthy people enough

to know they are a threat. Whether we recognize or act on it depends

on how and if it was nurtured and allowed to grow. First by our

parents and then by other SO's and ourselves. Where ever that comes

from and what ever " it " is, it's there to help us if we want it, we

are never totally left without anything to help guide us. I know I'm

rambling here and I don't know if this is as profound to any of you

as it is to me but I find it really facinating.

Must in in one of those philosophical kind of moods today. :0)

[Guest guest]

> Me too, Dan. Already ,while I was in high school, I decided I was

not good enough for normal guys. And recently I came up with the

same thing again when I was speculating about whether I could

possibly get married again if I leave my current husband. A normal

guy could not be satisfied with me. I feel too unable to trot out

the right moves even if I am not a BPD. I would love to have a nice

husband who cares about and values me. But I think it is impossible.

And I probably send out vibes that attract the wrong sort.

***Ya, I can relate. I think that can happen, the vibes thing, many

times beginning simply by not responding to the subtle vibes of

interest a healthy person might send out first. So much goes on at

the subconscious level, we immediately recognize and relate to

familiar patterns. And let's face it, subconsciously we know that

it would take a lot of work to commit to healthy people and we don't

even have the guarantee that it would be worth all the hard work. at

least f we are thinking ONLY in terms of the payoff of the

relationship rather than the value it would have for OURSELVES,

whether they choose to stay or not. But that's it. We need to value

OURSELVES, disvaluing ourselves became a learned and expecte

dpattern. We wonder if that by the time we " figure it out " , will the

healthy person still be willing to stick around? So who is it really

all about? Also do we instinctively (possibly rightly) distrust why

a HEALTHY person would be willing to do that when it would just be

so much easier for them to begin a relationship with a healthy

person in the first place. Actually,..I'm begining to beleive that

there really is no such thing as a " healthy " person as far as a

perfect model. I think it actually comes down to degrees and types

of dysfunctions. Some have made better progress than others, whether

by having the advantage of BETTER parenting to begin with or the

hard work, dedication, support and insight it takes to GET

healthier. I think it's just that it's easier and more comfortable

to hook up with people with similar or complimentary

dysfunctions,..as well as healthy strengths to be fair since i think

we also chose people based on the hope that together the two of you

have the strength, dedication and every motivation to WANT to

overcome the deficits you share. I think this is why in so many

relationships, some of the first intimacies gained, begin with being

able to share our past experiences and agree ont he things we stand

against or for.

Oh, I'm rambling again, these are just things I think about

sometimes. I just dont see people as " evil " or " good " anymore,..it's

degrees of dysfunction and willingness to seek something better and

then ALSO put the hard work into acheiving it. THAT is what I think

we need to be trained to be able to recognize as a determining

factor of what's makes a good choice in a mate. We ALL have faults,

areas we need to work on,..and we ALL have valuable and redeeming

qualities as well,..something good to offer to others. Give credit

where credit is due,.most of us and others DO deserve

credit,..without excusing the areas that are honestly NOT ok to

excuse,..areas that are RIGHT to ask for accountability.

:0)

[Guest guest]

Wow ! Them's profound words of wisdom. Thanks. I loved that and it

did me lots of good.

Kit

>

> >

> > In high school I had a girlfriend from an apparently healthy

> family. She was sweet and cared about me, and I cared about her.

My

> mother launched a destruction campaign against her until I cracked

> and had to break up. After that I never believed that I had a

right

> to a healthy relationship.

>

>

> ***Healthy people are quite threatening to unhealthy people, they

> are a reminder that the false systems they have built are just

that,

> false. An illusion and that there ARE other options and choices.

> Easier to get rid of the person than be reminded of it on a regular

> basis. I mean really, besides that, what if you figured out that

all

> her crap really wasn't ok or normal? I think that on a deep

> subconscious level they instincively know it. Then on our side, we

> gravitate towards what is familiar, take the path of least

> resistance,..or what APPEARS to be since relationships with healthy

> people ARE the real and right kind of paths of least resistance. In

> your case the extra trouble from mom is just more than you want to

> deal with,..you have enough on your plate with her already without

> adding more. This is true in relationships with BDP's also. The

NBPD

> often disconnects from the healthy relationships in their lives

> because it's just easier to not have to deal with the trouble it

> causes for them with the BDP. Of course the BDP does it because

they

> feel threatened by the healthy outside influences,..and for good

> reason. If we become isolated, without healthy people and

> relationships to bounce off of and compare to, it's much harder to

> gauge what is healhty and ok,..especially since many of us already

> are in position where we don't have the basic foundation where we

> can do that well ourselves to begin with,..because we DON'T know

> exactly. I do find it interesting though, something deep inside of

> us KNOWS and recognizes healthy people and relationships,..most of

> the time anyway. A testament to something really amazing about

human

> beings,..what exactly that is I couldn't say. Some kind of inborn

> seed of truth,..just like the BPD recognizing healthy people enough

> to know they are a threat. Whether we recognize or act on it

depends

> on how and if it was nurtured and allowed to grow. First by our

> parents and then by other SO's and ourselves. Where ever that comes

> from and what ever " it " is, it's there to help us if we want it, we

> are never totally left without anything to help guide us. I know

I'm

> rambling here and I don't know if this is as profound to any of you

> as it is to me but I find it really facinating.

>

> Must in in one of those philosophical kind of moods today. :0)

>

>

[Guest guest]

I found that very interesting. Can't say I've figured it all out for

myself though. I think I'm in the thick of it.

For instance, I think my brain wasn't figuring things out too well

when I married my present husband. I think I was still in a meltdown

phase after the end of my first marriage (and which end I was not

emotionally ready to accept). And my present husband (BDP) like my

mother is a total non grower like my mother - and my father too,

actually. I can't understand how people can be such non growers. And

then my husband is so twisted and dishonest in his thinking. He keeps

telling our therapist I'm this crazy, angry, lazy, selfish, forgetful

person and he constantly lies about events . I seriously sometimes

think I must be these things as I can't understand how he could say

these things otherwise. And the therapist keeps saying how my husband

seems to be such a nice guy and so couldn't trat me as I say. Huh ?!

So I feel like a regular fruit cake . Or do I mean BPD ? Would the

world stop spinning for a moment please.I'm getting dizzy.

- In ModOasis , " " <bvbn3333@m...> wrote:

>

> > Me too, Dan. Already ,while I was in high school, I decided I was

> not good enough for normal guys. And recently I came up with the

> same thing again when I was speculating about whether I could

> possibly get married again if I leave my current husband. A normal

> guy could not be satisfied with me. I feel too unable to trot out

> the right moves even if I am not a BPD. I would love to have a nice

> husband who cares about and values me. But I think it is

impossible.

> And I probably send out vibes that attract the wrong sort.

>

> ***Ya, I can relate. I think that can happen, the vibes thing, many

> times beginning simply by not responding to the subtle vibes of

> interest a healthy person might send out first. So much goes on at

> the subconscious level, we immediately recognize and relate to

> familiar patterns. And let's face it, subconsciously we know that

> it would take a lot of work to commit to healthy people and we

don't

> even have the guarantee that it would be worth all the hard work.

at

> least f we are thinking ONLY in terms of the payoff of the

> relationship rather than the value it would have for OURSELVES,

> whether they choose to stay or not. But that's it. We need to value

> OURSELVES, disvaluing ourselves became a learned and expecte

> dpattern. We wonder if that by the time we " figure it out " , will

the

> healthy person still be willing to stick around? So who is it

really

> all about? Also do we instinctively (possibly rightly) distrust why

> a HEALTHY person would be willing to do that when it would just be

> so much easier for them to begin a relationship with a healthy

> person in the first place. Actually,..I'm begining to beleive that

> there really is no such thing as a " healthy " person as far as a

> perfect model. I think it actually comes down to degrees and types

> of dysfunctions. Some have made better progress than others,

whether

> by having the advantage of BETTER parenting to begin with or the

> hard work, dedication, support and insight it takes to GET

> healthier. I think it's just that it's easier and more comfortable

> to hook up with people with similar or complimentary

> dysfunctions,..as well as healthy strengths to be fair since i

think

> we also chose people based on the hope that together the two of you

> have the strength, dedication and every motivation to WANT to

> overcome the deficits you share. I think this is why in so many

> relationships, some of the first intimacies gained, begin with

being

> able to share our past experiences and agree ont he things we stand

> against or for.

>

> Oh, I'm rambling again, these are just things I think about

> sometimes. I just dont see people as " evil " or " good "

anymore,..it's

> degrees of dysfunction and willingness to seek something better and

> then ALSO put the hard work into acheiving it. THAT is what I think

> we need to be trained to be able to recognize as a determining

> factor of what's makes a good choice in a mate. We ALL have faults,

> areas we need to work on,..and we ALL have valuable and redeeming

> qualities as well,..something good to offer to others. Give credit

> where credit is due,.most of us and others DO deserve

> credit,..without excusing the areas that are honestly NOT ok to

> excuse,..areas that are RIGHT to ask for accountability.

>

>

> :0)

[Guest guest]

> I found that very interesting. Can't say I've figured it all out

for myself though. I think I'm in the thick of it.For instance, I

think my brain wasn't figuring things out too well when I married my

present husband. I think I was still in a meltdown phase after the

end of my first marriage (and which end I was not emotionally ready

to accept). And my present husband (BDP) like my mother is a total

non grower like my mother - and my father too, actually. I can't

understand how people can be such non growers. And then my husband

is so twisted and dishonest in his thinking. He keeps telling our

therapist I'm this crazy, angry, lazy, selfish, forgetfulperson and

he constantly lies about events . I seriously sometimes think I must

be these things as I can't understand how he could say these things

otherwise. And the therapist keeps saying how my husband seems to be

such a nice guy and so couldn't trat me as I say. Huh ?! So I feel

like a regular fruit cake . Or do I mean BPD ? Would the world stop

spinning for a moment please.I'm getting dizzy.

***Ok,...(good subject btw), see if you can relate to any of this. I

know that I have never expected perfection, I think in that respect

I have a healthy and realistic ideas about mates and relationships.

What attracts me is attitude and the willingness to do what it

takes,..follow through. In my case I made the mistake of accepting

the talk before having ample enough time to see if the walk really

matched. Giving the benefit of the doubt is great,..but not for the

high stakes game of commiting to marriage. Ok, lessoned learned,

OUCH.

On the flip side, I think my SO both honestly thought/hoped he was

like he presented himself to be to me(no one REALLY knows until

tested) as well as being attracted to me because I did display the

qualities he wanted. I suppose it's possible that subconsciously he

wanted someone to do all those things FOR him too. I don't know, all

I know is that was the result. So now it's those traits in me that

he is both attracted to and repulsed by. When I am most in that mode

it reminds him of what he is NOT, he's told me as much (the insight

should me encouraging huh?). " Ok " I say, " What are YOU going to do

about it? And it is really fair to punish ME for doing the right

thing? " It's crazy, crazy I tell ya!

How do you make a crazy googly face in cyber world anyway,..it's

something I could use to express myself quite often. ;0)

:0)