Guest guest Posted September 16, 2005 Report Share Posted September 16, 2005 Do you have a cite for this study? Thanks > You may have been informed by the " experts " (actually these so called experts are those with a vested interest in the gym/equipment industry or their drones) that strength built up via isometrics is only good in the static position trained and it will not carry over to full range motions. > : A series of studies in the late 90's was to BLAST THAT THEORY TO HADES AND BACK!! Test subjects built their static strength up an average total of over 51% over a 10 week period. Typical for a well run isometric program. When tested on full range exercises it was found they improved nearly 28% on their one rep max and over 35% on their 10 rep max. That is a 60% carry over effect without ANY full range motions done! Improvement in full range movements by isometrics was undeniably far in excess of a method that totally relies on full range movements! > An interesting side note to this and other recent studies: these were performed on subjects who were ALREADY ADVANCED TRAINEES! People who thought they had already reached, or were very close to, their genetic limits! These trainees gained at a rate matching that of untrained individuals! WOW > > __________________________________________________ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2005 Report Share Posted September 19, 2005 This will be my final post to this group. I trust it will not be edited by those who screen the postings. Do I think the Bullworker works? It has it's place, but it is not a complete method and those wishing to achieve the best results possible would be well advised to include other forms of training along with the BW. When people have asked for proof or results the main posters of this group site old outdated research and never truly post anything that could even remotely pass for proof. Yes many old time strong men used isometrics, but they also lifted a hell of a lot of weight and before you rush off an embrace what these old timers say you might want to take a look at the bigger picture. Many of these old time strong men smoked and felt it was good for your health- in moderation. They also drank gallons of beer, and followed other questionable health practices. Many of these guys were also pretty slick marketers- they sold course in health and strength. And you know what? It's cheaper to sell a course that requires no equipment than one that would require shipping hundreds of pounds of iron. Atlas the most well known and most successful is a perfect example. Atlas did not use his methods to build his physique. He used weights and strands. He teamed up with a writer for Bernarr MacFadden's Physical Culture magazine. The writer told Atlas that what was needed was a non-apparatus course, something that would be cheap to mail out. Thus the Atlas method was born. It's interesting to note that almost all the exercises in the course can also be found in MacFadden's own book Muscular Power and Beauty, written almost 20 years before Atlas' course. So Atlas did not discover some new method called " Dynamic Tension " . As a side note the name Dynamic Tension did not exist until an ad copy man bought half of the course from Atlas and " created " the name for marketing purposes. As always- Buyer Beware is good advice to follow. Finally I will add- it's interesting that some people think that I have been insulting. These same people seem to have no problem insulting me nor insulting my country (Canada). The moderators of this forum are " bullys " in the truest sense. They shout down any opposition to their " rule " and attempt to insult or embarass any skeptics. I do not make threats nor threaten people, but I will say this- None of these " bullys " would have the guts to say any of their comments to my face. They would quickly find out that their BW muscles would be of little value to them. -Dave Walmsley Re: Re: Strength from Isos Hi, richard pancoast wrote: > I feel that if anyone here does not agree with the isometric > findings,he or she are free to leave this group Is the purpose of this group to be a " feel-good " club for the true-believers, a collection point for bullworker marketing speil, or a place where people can come to share new and useful information? Questioning any information presented is far more valuable than blindly believing it. > If someone does not believe isometrics ,or,the Bukllworker works,then > why be here in the first place? I dont know if isometrics work or even if the bullworker works. I would like to find out! I was hoping to find objective information and techniques from real bullworker users - supported by measurement of weight, strength, size, etc. More of a scientific leaning. A place away from the marketers and sales-people. > isometrics.Because isos work.If you believe differently,please join > another group.At least don't make attacks on this group. The Canadian Combato didnt make an attack on this group at all - by questioning the source of the info, and trying to weed out the marketing BS, he is actually improving the quality of this group (although, agreed, he could have phrased it in a more diplomatic way) The web site the contribution was based on has very low credibility. Unfortunately by using it as a reference site, it has the side effect of reducing the credibility of other content from this group.. Regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2005 Report Share Posted September 19, 2005 Ah, where to start, Dave, As one of the moderators on the forum, I will try to address each of your issues: I have let your posts go through on a regular basis. I can only remember censoring one, which I thought was inappropriate given its content. Of course, that is my job and I do it using my judgment. Hey, what can you say, judgment is judgment. With regards to your comments on old time strongmen, Atlas etc. you may be right. Personally, I don't base my understanding of exercise science and strength development on what an individual says they do or don't do. Even if World Class Athlete A says he owes his success to training method A and even if he is being truthfull, that means little in the way of method evaluation. Two subjective and too little rigor in measurement. The most someone can say is, hey I did this, I got that. However, with regard to isometric contraction, there are literally dozens of research studies that show that isometric contraction can build strength and add muscle mass. These studies are conducted by university types, not BW sales folks. Most of us here are not claiming that Isos are superior to other exercise methods in every sense of the word. What the lab does confirm is that isos are a particularly time efficient and safe way to build strength and muscle mass depending on how you use them. They are cheap too, no gym or equipment needed. The BW is of course, a tool to use isos and a pretty cool one at that. If you can approach our forum with this in mind, you can add to the body of knowledge and we appreciate it. If you cannot, then hey, it is a free country, no? You are free to leave too! > > > I feel that if anyone here does not agree with the isometric > > findings,he or she are free to leave this group > > Is the purpose of this group to be a " feel-good " club for the > true-believers, a collection point for bullworker marketing speil, or a > place where people can come to share new and useful information? > > Questioning any information presented is far more valuable than blindly > believing it. > > > > If someone does not believe isometrics ,or,the Bukllworker works,then > > why be here in the first place? > > I dont know if isometrics work or even if the bullworker works. I would > like to find out! > > I was hoping to find objective information and techniques from real > bullworker users - supported by measurement of weight, strength, size, > etc. More of a scientific leaning. > > A place away from the marketers and sales-people. > > > > isometrics.Because isos work.If you believe differently,please join > > another group.At least don't make attacks on this group. > > The Canadian Combato didnt make an attack on this group at all - by > questioning the source of the info, and trying to weed out the marketing > BS, he is actually improving the quality of this group (although, > agreed, he could have phrased it in a more diplomatic way) > > The web site the contribution was based on has very low credibility. > Unfortunately by using it as a reference site, it has the side effect of > reducing the credibility of other content from this group.. > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2005 Report Share Posted September 19, 2005 Hi,Marco, Ok,I agree with much of what you say.Disagreements that lead to positive arguments are healthy,and I support anyone's personal opinions.To disagree or argue with anything you don't agree with is negative if you don't here both sides.We must keep open minds and respect each other's opinions,whether we agree or not.If we disagree,we should disagree nicely,and I've seen this here.Someone will write,I disagree with what so-and-so has writen,and then explain why,like you have here.This is ok.Not everyone will agree with me,that's ok.I don't always agree with everyone,either.But respect other's opinions.Everyone here tries to help each other. I haven't been in this forum long,but what I see here are people who use Bullworker and have received great results from it,as I have.I have made friends in other forums that use Bullworker and isometrics along with other training,and have received very positive results from both. I also read here that people are curious about Bullworker,can it work for them,can it solve certain physical problems,gain muscle,lose fat,etc.And I also read the answers from members seriously concerned and trying to help. Ok,not everyone agrees with the scientific findings of isometrics,nor what isos has done for many users.Should they leave this forum?No.For my answer below,I apologize.But this should be a "feel good" forum.Anyone should be able to come here with problems,answers,suggestions,thoughts,etc.,and should be welcome to post them.We're not going to agree with everyone,that would be impossible.But all should be welcome here,agree or disagree,but let's be nice on how we disagree.People post on mainly what they believe or from their own experience.If someone would write here that they became Mr.Universe from just using Bullworker,who am I to say,Impossible!.Bullworker never claimed that could happen,but who knows.Everyone is different.Nott everyone who uses Bullworker and/or isometrics will achieve the same results,but anyone who gives Bullworker an honest chance can improve his or her body and health. I posted a copy I made from an older Bullworker manual claiming your fitness will improve by using Bullworker,and another member here caught that and corrected it.And he did so in a respectable way.So,we're all members here,like a family,let's disagree in a nice way,and respect each other's opinions.We all try to help,we all make mistakes,and we all search for answers. I have made improvements using Bullworker,and I've posted them here.More users should post their results. And,I appreciate your comments,Marco.Your comments are a perfect example of how to disagree.Very respectable. Thank you. Richmarco wrote: Hi,richard pancoast wrote:> I feel that if anyone here does not agree with the isometric > findings,he or she are free to leave this groupIs the purpose of this group to be a "feel-good" club for the true-believers, a collection point for bullworker marketing speil, or a place where people can come to share new and useful information?Questioning any information presented is far more valuable than blindly believing it.> If someone does not believe isometrics ,or,the Bukllworker works,then > why be here in the first place?I dont know if isometrics work or even if the bullworker works. I would like to find out!I was hoping to find objective information and techniques from real bullworker users - supported by measurement of weight, strength, size, etc. More of a scientific leaning.A place away from the marketers and sales-people.> isometrics.Because isos work.If you believe differently,please join > another group.At least don't make attacks on this group.The Canadian Combato didnt make an attack on this group at all - by questioning the source of the info, and trying to weed out the marketing BS, he is actually improving the quality of this group (although, agreed, he could have phrased it in a more diplomatic way)The web site the contribution was based on has very low credibility. Unfortunately by using it as a reference site, it has the side effect of reducing the credibility of other content from this group..Regards, Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2005 Report Share Posted September 19, 2005 This is with reference to the arguement of superiority of one method over the other. I have tried all the advices given in this forum and in the manual. To tell you the truth I have not built large muscles, but yes I have built muscles. I remember my teen day when I built larger muscles by plain pushups. I used to exercise only 1 hr a day. So does this mean that bullworker is useless. NO In an short time I have regained my strenght. This is where I should say that bullworker scores. My case history is that I was suffering from depression(mild). I put on a lot of weight and lost strenght. I joined gym but but found it a waste of money for only one reason that it requires constant guidance and exceptional will to keep timings. I started to jog but soon lost interest. Nope no increase in endurance. I began using bullworker and slowly found that I was getting interested and stronger. My endurance increased. I could perform yoga better. Stretches improved. I got a new confidence. Not that I have an Arnies body but changes are now evident. I FEEL STRONG. CONCLUSIONS FROM MY CASE HISTORY It is a superior form of exercise, it no doubt increases endurance with minimal effort. Re: Strength from Isos Ah, where to start,Dave,As one of the moderators on the forum, I will try to address each of your issues:I have let your posts go through on a regular basis. I can only remember censoring one, which I thought was inappropriate given its content. Of course, that is my job and I do it using my judgment.Hey, what can you say, judgment is judgment.With regards to your comments on old time strongmen, Atlas etc. you may be right. Personally, I don't base my understanding of exercise science and strength development on what an individual says they do or don't do.Even if World Class Athlete A says he owes his success to training method A and even if he is being truthfull, that means little in the way of method evaluation. Two subjective and too little rigor in measurement. The most someone can say is, hey I did this, I got that.However, with regard to isometric contraction, there are literally dozens of research studies that show that isometric contraction can build strength and add muscle mass. These studies are conducted by university types, not BW sales folks. Most of us here are not claiming that Isos are superior to other exercise methods in every sense of the word. What the lab does confirm is that isos are a particularly time efficient and safe way to build strength and muscle mass depending on how you use them. They are cheap too, no gym or equipment needed.The BW is of course, a tool to use isos and a pretty cool one at that.If you can approach our forum with this in mind, you can add to the body of knowledge and we appreciate it.If you cannot, then hey, it is a free country, no?You are free to leave too!> > > I feel that if anyone here does not agree with the isometric> > findings,he or she are free to leave this group> > Is the purpose of this group to be a "feel-good" club for the> true-believers, a collection point for bullworker marketing speil, or a> place where people can come to share new and useful information?> > Questioning any information presented is far more valuable than blindly> believing it.> > > > If someone does not believe isometrics ,or,the Bukllworker works,then> > why be here in the first place?> > I dont know if isometrics work or even if the bullworker works. I would> like to find out!> > I was hoping to find objective information and techniques from real> bullworker users - supported by measurement of weight, strength, size,> etc. More of a scientific leaning.> > A place away from the marketers and sales-people.> > > > isometrics.Because isos work.If you believe differently,please join> > another group.At least don't make attacks on this group.> > The Canadian Combato didnt make an attack on this group at all - by> questioning the source of the info, and trying to weed out the marketing> BS, he is actually improving the quality of this group (although,> agreed, he could have phrased it in a more diplomatic way)> > The web site the contribution was based on has very low credibility.> Unfortunately by using it as a reference site, it has the side effect of> reducing the credibility of other content from this group..> > Regards,> > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2005 Report Share Posted September 19, 2005 --- richard pancoast wrote: > I feel that if anyone here does not agree with the isometric findings,he or she are free to leave this group ... If you are only here to argue points,there are other sites you can join ... If you believe differently,please join another group... At least don't make attacks on this group ... Hi Gang, I have been following most of the major Bodyweight, SR & Iso etc forums for years. And I can tell you Dave is incredibly knowledgible in all these areas with real life experience to back him up. And he has never suggested Isometrics or the Bullworker don't work but he is a realist. He will certainly point out that he doesn't think it is the total solution. Perhaps unfortunately at times Dave could choose his words better but that is just his way. His comments about the Jack Savage stuff was not an attack on this group as a whole. There are a lot of people with vested interests in selling courses etc who may exagerate what one can expect from their courses. Dave like a lot of people who have been involved with physical culture for a long time get annoyed with some of this and are merely in their own way trying to make people aware that some claims may not be truthful. I'm a very enthusiastic Bullworker user and use it in conjunction with other Bodyweight & SR stuff but think it is a great shame to lose a fantastic resource like Dave. The comments I quoted from another post at the top of my comments basically telling him to go ... go ... go I personally felt was equally or more harsh than Dave's related post. Believe me Dave is one of the good guys. Cheers - Gordon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2005 Report Share Posted September 19, 2005 I've just got back from an evening of *far* too much cider... followed by a Chicken Vindaloo... trust me... I don't feel too fit at the moment!! I think tomorrows bully has got some work to do From: bullworkerclub [mailto:bullworkerclub ] On Behalf Of Alan Sent: 19 September 2005 20:10To: bullworkerclub Subject: Re: Re: Strength from Isos Whats wrong with beer? I thought it was one of the three basic food groups together with pizza and ice cream.Canadian Combato wrote: This will be my final post to this group. I trust it will not be edited bythose who screen the postings.Do I think the Bullworker works?It has it's place, but it is not a complete method and those wishing toachieve the best results possible would be well advised to include otherforms of training along with the BW.When people have asked for proof or results the main posters of this groupsite old outdated research and never truly post anything that could evenremotely pass for proof.Yes many old time strong men used isometrics, but they also lifted a hell ofa lot of weight and before you rush off an embrace what these old timers sayyou might want to take a look at the bigger picture.Many of these old time strong men smoked and felt it was good for yourhealth- in moderation. They also drank gallons of beer, and followed otherquestionable health practices.Many of these guys were also pretty slick marketers- they sold course inhealth and strength. And you know what? It's cheaper to sell a course thatrequires no equipment than one that would require shipping hundreds ofpounds of iron. Atlas the most well known and most successful is a perfect example.Atlas did not use his methods to build his physique. He used weights andstrands.He teamed up with a writer for Bernarr MacFadden's Physical Culturemagazine. The writer told Atlas that what was needed was a non-apparatuscourse, something that would be cheap to mail out. Thus the Atlas method wasborn. It's interesting to note that almost all the exercises in the coursecan also be found in MacFadden's own book Muscular Power and Beauty, writtenalmost 20 years before Atlas' course. So Atlas did not discover some newmethod called "Dynamic Tension". As a side note the name Dynamic Tension didnot exist until an ad copy man bought half of the course from Atlas and"created" the name for marketing purposes.As always- Buyer Beware is good advice to follow.Finally I will add- it's interesting that some people think that I have beeninsulting. These same people seem to have no problem insulting me norinsulting my country (Canada).The moderators of this forum are "bullys" in the truest sense. They shoutdown any opposition to their "rule" and attempt to insult or embarass anyskeptics.I do not make threats nor threaten people, but I will say this- None ofthese "bullys" would have the guts to say any of their comments to my face.They would quickly find out that their BW muscles would be of little valueto them.-Dave Walmsley Re: Re: Strength from IsosHi,richard pancoast wrote:> I feel that if anyone here does not agree with the isometric> findings,he or she are free to leave this groupIs the purpose of this group to be a "feel-good" club for thetrue-believers, a collection point for bullworker marketing speil, or aplace where people can come to share new and useful information?Questioning any information presented is far more valuable than blindlybelieving it.> If someone does not believe isometrics ,or,the Bukllworker works,then> why be here in the first place?I dont know if isometrics work or even if the bullworker works. I wouldlike to find out!I was hoping to find objective information and techniques from realbullworker users - supported by measurement of weight, strength, size,etc. More of a scientific leaning.A place away from the marketers and sales-people.> isometrics.Because isos work.If you believe differently,please join> another group.At least don't make attacks on this group.The Canadian Combato didnt make an attack on this group at all - byquestioning the source of the info, and trying to weed out the marketingBS, he is actually improving the quality of this group (although,agreed, he could have phrased it in a more diplomatic way)The web site the contribution was based on has very low credibility.Unfortunately by using it as a reference site, it has the side effect ofreducing the credibility of other content from this group..Regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.