Re: What's a flylady?Life Laundry and House Cleaning

[Guest guest]

>..................>

> Back to Flylady: in some ways I'm sad that this sort of thing is

> still needed. So obviously aimed at women. Just brings up all that

> junk about how this stuff is still women's work. That feels sad to

> me. I'm a feminist so it bugs me on a whole series of levels, but

> even not on that level it feels sad that women are still largely

> responsible for creating and keeping a home and relationships. My

> husband and I have are having a longterm dialogue about how he

needs

> to contribute and take responsibility for and nurture our family

and

> home. And it's a really hard conversation because he acts like

doing

> any of that stuff is above and beyond his " duty " . Blech.

****totally understand that one. When I was still an elementary

school teacher, my exhubby told me my job was only part-time. I

asked for an explanation - which was that when he was out of college

(guess who was paying for that bill?), I wouldn't be working anymore -

therefore, it was only a part-time job! He once was doing some

vacuuming for me and his sister stopped by unannounced. He made his

sis promise not to tell anyone what he was doing. (His thinking was

that he HAD to do this because I wasn't capable of taking care of the

house, and he was ashamed of having a wife who wasn't a perfect

housekeeper.)

Have you considered you and hubby following this approach together?

>

> But then I also think some of the resentment I feel about that is

> related to nada's attitude (a bunch of you have mentioned it in the

> housecleaning topic) that I've taken on about being angry at having

> to do the home stuff. Memories of nada screeching and yelling at my

> 7 year old self that it wasn't fair that she had to do everything

> and she shouldn't have to be responsible by herself for our house.

*****My nada also created a very negative environment around any

work. Her expectations were so unrealistic. But as a kid, I tried

to make sense out of it. They only way to make sense out of nonsense

is to create more nonsense! One of my greatest difficulties in all

areas of work was my unrealistic expectations. I would verbally beat

myself about everything that wasn't done, but I never understood the

process of getting things done - and that it took TIME. Nada made it

seem like there was something magical about it. I finally got it,

not magic, just time allotted to do the work, and getting rid of the

negative voice that made me so depressed I couldn't get up and do

anything.

I

> had chores but it nada's screaming was a " you should be taking care

> of me " tactic. Yup, she was also super-skilled at cleaning

(although

> her cooking was foul) but never passed it on. A strange nada

> pattern. I suppose teaching or passing your knowledge on is an act

> of generosity and also a recognition that you need to help your

> child develop skills so that they can take care of themselves

> properly (i.e. away from you) one day. Two things not in my nada's

> repetoire.

>

> Nadine

****Yep, Nadine. My nada had not reason to teach me how to be

independent - 1st, cause she saw me as an extension of herself, and

2nd, I would remain dependent, and that made her feel better. Maybe

the enmeshment/extension stuff is also why she never taught me

anything, she always assumed I already knew (cause she knew, so

therefore her 'extension' should also know.)

Take care of yourself,

Sylvia

[Guest guest]

--- In ModOasis , " electricnadine "

> I'm a feminist so it bugs me on a whole series of levels, but

> even not on that level it feels sad that women are still largely

> responsible for creating and keeping a home and relationships. My

> husband and I have are having a longterm dialogue about how he

>needs to contribute and take responsibility for and nurture our

>family and home. And it's a really hard conversation because he

>acts like doing any of that stuff is above and beyond his " duty " .

There's still a whole lotta room to improve the male/female roles

thing... my husband is pretty good about this stuff, but the

comments of other people really get me going. For example, he cooks

and I do dishes, and this is a never-ending topic for EVERYONE. As

if a husband cooking amounts to an alien spaceship parked in the

back yard. Reeally irritating.

Oddly, I've been trying to find more of my " feminine " side lately.

My reaction to having a nada scared me away from anything remotely

resembling her, and I ended up a lot like my dad. Trying to find

that elusive balance.

>

> But then I also think some of the resentment I feel about that is

> related to nada's attitude (a bunch of you have mentioned it in

>the housecleaning topic) that I've taken on about being angry at

>having to do the home stuff. Memories of nada screeching and

>yelling at my 7 year old self that it wasn't fair that she had to

>do everything and she shouldn't have to be responsible by herself

>for our house.

I had three brothers who never had to do anything around the house.

My nada and my NPD dad would come down on me HARD if I walked away

from the dinner table, unless I was walking towards the kitchen sink

to do the dishes. I hated them both for that.

> I suppose teaching or passing your knowledge on is an act

> of generosity and also a recognition that you need to help your

> child develop skills so that they can take care of themselves

> properly (i.e. away from you) one day.

That's insightful. I think the only things my parents purposely

taught me were the things they wanted me to do so they didn't have

to. It was never for my own future benefit. This fits right in with

BPD/NPD parenting.

My nada never taught me how to take pleasure in the act of cooking,

cleaning, keeping a nice house, any of it. She'd rant and rage

whenever she had to do it. I'm finding out on my own (to my

surprise) that there's actually pleasure in those things!

My nada also taught me that money was useful to either to get back

at somebody, or else to make yourself feel better by spending it on

yourself. My NPD dad taught me how to hoard money (not invest,

hoard). Neither taught me how to use money to live, to secure a

future, or to use it to enjoy life responsibly. That money is a

tool, not a weapon or a power trip. I have a lot of trouble spending

money on vacations, because a vacation doesn't fit into any of their

categories. This is a hard one to get over.

[Guest guest]

Hi Sylvia,

I totally agree with what you said about unrealistic expectations. I

have repeatedly done the same thing: verbally beating myself up and

not understanding the proces of getting things done. Absolutely.

Missed the whole concept of time. Am still working on that one and

have been for years now. Consistently underestimate how long things

will take. Set an unrealistic target and then beat myself up for not

meeting it. Ah, the influence of nada's magic ways. Get overwhelmed

easily because of this particular flea. Yup. You described it

perfectly.

Interesting point that nada might not have taught methings because

she assumed I already knew simply because she did. My nada

definitely enjoyed comparing us and showing how she was always

better (imagine how messed up you have to be to compare your work to

a 9 year old to make yourself feel better). So on one hand she was

always pointing out that she was better than me (her body, the way

she did things etc.). On the other, she definitely saw us as the

same in a lot of ways and really didn't see me as separate but as an

extension of herself. Interesting stuff to think about.

Thanks for the post, you've given me lots to think about.

Nadine

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I think part of my annoyance with my husband about the housework

thing is partially related to the fact that he cooks and does

housework so well and that our ways of doing it are so different.

His mother (a gourmet cook and housewife extraordinaire) carefully

taught and shared with him all she knew. It's not that he doesn't do

stuff around the house but it's that he seems to think that it

matters more when he does it than when I do. When he does something

he spends hours doing it, making it perfect (and I don't see the

point of perfectly folded towels when okay will do). He'll complain

about having spent an hour folding laundry (I would have done it in

15 minutes) but it took that long because he folds his underwear in

a super precise manner and works much more slowly than I do. I know

that part of it is a relaxation thing for him, doesn't want to rush.

He criticises and tries to control the way I do things because I am

simply not interested in doing things to that level of perfectionism

in the house. Interestingly, have been finding my own pleasure in

learning to do these things regularly and learning from hubby

without taking on all his demands.

So there's a power thing going on between us. He seems to think that

me doing things doesn't matter as much as his because I don't spend

as much time doing it. Maybe I'm reproducing what Sylvia called

nada's magic here. When I do things, they're done quickly and I move

on. I don't make my labour obvious and maybe he sees that as not

putting in the same effort as him or something. We've had a lot of

issues about power and control in our relationship and writing this

down just reminds me that the house is where we project quite a bit

of it. I guess the problem for me is that I feel he tries to control

the way I do things and then wants his own housework to count more

than mine and instead of letting it go and seeing it as his problem

I'm still triggered and engage.

Your comments about hubby cooking and getting so much recognition

for it hits home. Hubby gets treated like a saint when he cooks for

people. Bizarre. That whole men-go-into-the-living-room-and-watch-tv

thing while women cook and then clean up thing...it annoys me at

holidays. Can't imagine what it must have been like growing up with

it everday.

Interesting to hear you exploring your " feminine " side (but still no

pink I'm assuming). Would like to get updates. Am still going

through that myself. Nada refused to let me be feminine so started

playing with that as rebellion in my early 20s. Actually felt like a

drag queen half the time when first starting out trying to

be " feminine " . Okay, let's be honest still feel like a drag queen

quite a bit of the time because my kind of femininity has nothing to

do with soft pink or fluffiness.

Interesting stuff about money in your family. Both your parent' s

approach to money create an atmosphere of stress or crisis around it

instead of using it to create stability and security. It sort of

reminds me of kids with Hallow'en candy. I always found that there

were two types of kids. Those who gorged and tried to eat it all iin

one night and the others who rationed it out so extremely that they

would still have leftovers when the next Hallowe'en came around.

Both are so extreme.

I know you've mentioned that you like self help stuff. A passion we

share. I keep meaning to read some of those self help books on

money. Have you ever used them? One of my favourite shows (UK again

but think there is a US show and book related to it) was

called " Your Money or Your Life " . Really does the whole

psychological approach to money well.

So where's your next vacation planned?

Nadine