Guest guest Posted July 4, 2004 Report Share Posted July 4, 2004 This was fascinating to read. I just realized how easily I was willing to accept the dogma that it is okay for physical punishment within the family. I don't believe in it....but I was accepting it as part of our culture. I hope to hear that this amendment passes. I'd like to see our legislators use this as precident for a similar bill in the USA. Sylvia > Story from BBC NEWS: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/england/3864001.stm > Published: 2004/07/04 14:45:56 GMT > > << > Parents 'to face smacking limits' > .............there is to be a free vote in the House of Lords on Monday on an > amendment allowing moderate smacking. > > Parents could be restricted to giving their children mild smacks which > do not amount to causing actual bodily harm. > ..................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2004 Report Share Posted July 4, 2004 Sylvia, I hope it does not. It is not quite reasonable to me. The red mark business is a bunch of baloney to me, but the rest of it is up to par. They amend that part, I will be all for it. You cannot effectively smack a child & not leave a red mark for at least 5 minutes. This passes & children will laughing at parents all over this world. Debbie Re: OT: 'Smacking Limits' > This was fascinating to read. I just realized how easily I was > willing to accept the dogma that it is okay for physical punishment > within the family. I don't believe in it....but I was accepting it as > part of our culture. I hope to hear that this amendment passes. I'd > like to see our legislators use this as precident for a similar bill > in the USA. > > Sylvia > > > > > Story from BBC NEWS: > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/england/3864001.stm > > Published: 2004/07/04 14:45:56 GMT > > > > << > > Parents 'to face smacking limits' > > > ............there is to be a free vote in the House of Lords on > Monday on an > > amendment allowing moderate smacking. > > > > Parents could be restricted to giving their children mild smacks > which > > do not amount to causing actual bodily harm. > > > .................... > > > > Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner > " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to: > http://www.BPDCentral.com > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2004 Report Share Posted July 5, 2004 << This passes & children will laughing at parents all over this world. >> I used to think that, but now I am not so sure. I think that smacking kids just makes them smack other kids, and when they grow up they smack their own kids. Is it really necessary for discipline? I think that healthy discipline comes from respect for the parents, and the parents must earn that respect. One big danger of a law against smacking is that some parents will substitute emotional abuse for it, which is much more destructive. What we need is ideas and training in how to discipline kids without smacking or emotional abuse. The word " discipline " is often used to mean " punishment " , but a more fundamental meaning of the word is " training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties or moral character " (Webster's). It is related to " disciple " meaning follower. - Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2004 Report Share Posted July 5, 2004 The kids watch shows that tell them the best way to cure a problem is to gang up on someone, kill them, beat them, shoot them. Yet it is the parent that teaches the child to abuse another human being? I am sorry I cannot buy into that. You limit the violence on your tv & you have less violence in the home. I have tested the theory myself & so I know that it isn't just a theory. There is the real culprit of teaching children to be abusive. But is anyone taking the violence off tv. No. They show naked bodies on tv that cause urges in children just developing & changing. It should be taken off tv. A young boy or girl can only be tempted by things like that so much then they have to do something about it. Now a lot of people can step in & say that I am going too far. But if a porn movie can cause a man/woman to become aroused, then a milder form can cause young developing children to become aroused. If I can watch a movie about a woman similar to my mother & feel a rage to just kill that woman & take the child & protect it, just what do you think a child would feel? Some parents are guilty of abuse. But we don't need a law to tell people whats wrong to do to children. Those people do it because they don't give a damn & they usually derive great pleasure from doing it. Instead of making laws stating what abuse is, they need to first know what abuse is & where are these kids are learning it. A child who is abused will usually be violent, but not always. What kind of message is society sending children? Cure all problems through kicking AXX & you can have sex all you want to because its fun. You want to know how bad off a society is, then find out what its watching on tv or where its going on the internet or at the movies. Not really trying to argue, just putting my point of view across as to what is the real problem with the messages we are giving our kids through the media. Lose that crap & we get our kids back & then the true abusers will be found. Real parents don't abuse their kids, sicko's do. Debbie Re: OT: 'Smacking Limits' > << This passes & children will laughing at parents all over this > world. >> > > I used to think that, but now I am not so sure. I think that > smacking kids just makes them smack other kids, and when they grow up > they smack their own kids. Is it really necessary for discipline? I > think that healthy discipline comes from respect for the parents, and > the parents must earn that respect. > > One big danger of a law against smacking is that some parents will > substitute emotional abuse for it, which is much more destructive. > > What we need is ideas and training in how to discipline kids without > smacking or emotional abuse. The word " discipline " is often used to > mean " punishment " , but a more fundamental meaning of the word > is " training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties > or moral character " (Webster's). It is related to " disciple " meaning > follower. > > - Dan > > > > > Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner > " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to: > http://www.BPDCentral.com > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2004 Report Share Posted July 5, 2004 Hi Dan, Ppl who have dogs get dog licenses and some even take dog-training classes. No dog was ever trained in a dog-training class by being emotionally abused and/or beaten. But people don't need a license to have a child and few take parenting classes. We KOs gathered here are the wounded survivors -- and I sometimes think about those that didn't survive. This certainly is a strange world... - Edith Dan wrote: > << This passes & children will laughing at parents all over this > world. >> > > I used to think that, but now I am not so sure. I think that > smacking kids just makes them smack other kids, and when they grow up > they smack their own kids. Is it really necessary for discipline? I > think that healthy discipline comes from respect for the parents, and > the parents must earn that respect. > > One big danger of a law against smacking is that some parents will > substitute emotional abuse for it, which is much more destructive. > > What we need is ideas and training in how to discipline kids without > smacking or emotional abuse. The word " discipline " is often used to > mean " punishment " , but a more fundamental meaning of the word > is " training that corrects, molds, or perfects the mental faculties > or moral character " (Webster's). It is related to " disciple " meaning > follower. > > - Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2004 Report Share Posted July 5, 2004 Dear Debbie, I agree completely with your rant about violence on TV, etc. I think it was Oliver Wendell Holmes who said that freedom of speech did not include the right to cry " fire! " in a crowded theatre, and what the media are doing is even worse than that. I think that it would be best if we didn't ever physically punish children, but the damage done by a few spankings is insignificant compared with that done by TV and video game violence. One of the reasons I left the USA is that a large fraction of the adults I knew talked as if killing people was the only way to solve problems. I am sure they talk this way to their children too. It makes for a violent culture which is extremely frightening to me. Perhaps the underlying violence of my BPD/NPD parents made me hypersensitive to this. But I think that any reasonable, caring person would be hypersensitive to this. There are so few reasonable, caring people. I find it ironic that if an entertainer shows a little bit of breast it is a huge scandal and there is the threat of enormous fines, but this violence is there all the time and is accepted and ignored. Parents cannot completely protect their children from this filth. They will see it at their friends' homes and it is a part of their friends' play. Here in France it is very uncommon and jarring to hear children playing " bang, you're dead " or " I'll kill you " . Back in the USA it seemed to be the most common form of play. I believe that parents must take the responsibility to limit the amount and content of TV viewing for younger children. I would limit the amount of TV viewing for my teenage stepson but I cannot because my wife won't support me. She talks like it is a good idea, but she won't set limits and if I set limits she makes it obvious to him that she does not support my right to set limits. So I give up. I have to choose my battles. Teaching by example is very important. If we read a lot, to our children and to ourselves when our children are present, and we don't spend a lot of time in front of the TV, this will have more of a long-term effect on the children than anything we say. - Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2004 Report Share Posted July 5, 2004 > I used to think that, but now I am not so sure. I think that > smacking kids just makes them smack other kids, and when they grow up > they smack their own kids. Is it really necessary for discipline? I > think that healthy discipline comes from respect for the parents, and > the parents must earn that respect. this is true of older kids, Dan, but a 2-3 year old doesn't think/reason like an adult or even an older child. Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2004 Report Share Posted July 5, 2004 > Ppl who have dogs get dog licenses and some even take dog-training > classes. No dog was ever trained in a dog-training class by being > emotionally abused and/or beaten. But people don't need a license to > have a child and few take parenting classes. We KOs gathered here are > the wounded survivors -- and I sometimes think about those that didn't > survive. This certainly is a strange world... > > - Edith you can't compare dogs and kids since dogs don't speak/understand our language. You teach an animal the way they understand best. Chimps do smack their offspring when they need it Jackie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2004 Report Share Posted July 5, 2004 Can you stand one more remark. I raised 3 kids never hit them. they are nice, respectful great kids with good morals. Discipline is about abiding by fair and consistant rules not about punishment. Dr Spock wrote that prisons are filled with violent criminals that were hit by their parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2004 Report Share Posted July 5, 2004 fbeth@... wrote: > ... Discipline is about abiding by > fair and consistant rules not about punishment. Hi , I agree. My BPD/NPD mother was an emotional 2 yo in a full-sized adult body -- with all the rights and privileges thereof. My BPD/NPD hubby, on the other hand, was a 5-7 yo emotional bully. Thus I was able to observe different nuances in them of this particular PD combination. And, one of the things I find interesting is that ppl with PDs don't have a clue when it comes to rewards and punishment -- let alone consistency. Its always just about them and their wants and needs. My .02... - Edith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2004 Report Share Posted July 5, 2004 Thanks for sharing your success story! I used to think that a certain amount of hitting/spanking (whatever you call it) was needed in raising children. It is even out there in some child rearing books. I confess to having hit my children a few times, but I never thought that it was the best form of discipline, I just didn't know what else to do, and because of my low self-esteem at the time, I was afraid to discuss this with anyone. But it was because I loved my children that I did keep on seeking another way(s) to effectively discipline. I have apologized to them for the few times they were spanked, and explained to them how it was my inadequacies as a parent that was the reason for the spanking, and that it really wasn't an appropriate method for disciplining. Sylvia > Can you stand one more remark. I raised 3 kids never hit them. they are > nice, respectful great kids with good morals. Discipline is about abiding by > fair and consistant rules not about punishment. Dr Spock wrote that prisons are > filled with violent criminals that were hit by their parents. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2004 Report Share Posted July 5, 2004 Thanks for sharing your success story! I used to think that a certain amount of hitting/spanking (whatever you call it) was needed in raising children. It is even out there in some child rearing books. I confess to having hit my children a few times, but I never thought that it was the best form of discipline, I just didn't know what else to do, and because of my low self-esteem at the time, I was afraid to discuss this with anyone. But it was because I loved my children that I did keep on seeking another way(s) to effectively discipline. I have apologized to them for the few times they were spanked, and explained to them how it was my inadequacies as a parent that was the reason for the spanking, and that it really wasn't an appropriate method for disciplining. Sylvia > Can you stand one more remark. I raised 3 kids never hit them. they are > nice, respectful great kids with good morals. Discipline is about abiding by > fair and consistant rules not about punishment. Dr Spock wrote that prisons are > filled with violent criminals that were hit by their parents. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2004 Report Share Posted July 5, 2004 Thanks for sharing your success story! I used to think that a certain amount of hitting/spanking (whatever you call it) was needed in raising children. It is even out there in some child rearing books. I confess to having hit my children a few times, but I never thought that it was the best form of discipline, I just didn't know what else to do, and because of my low self-esteem at the time, I was afraid to discuss this with anyone. But it was because I loved my children that I did keep on seeking another way(s) to effectively discipline. I have apologized to them for the few times they were spanked, and explained to them how it was my inadequacies as a parent that was the reason for the spanking, and that it really wasn't an appropriate method for disciplining. Sylvia > Can you stand one more remark. I raised 3 kids never hit them. they are > nice, respectful great kids with good morals. Discipline is about abiding by > fair and consistant rules not about punishment. Dr Spock wrote that prisons are > filled with violent criminals that were hit by their parents. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2004 Report Share Posted July 6, 2004 <Can you stand one more remark. I raised 3 kids never hit them. they are < nice, respectful great kids with good morals. Discipline is about abiding by < fair and consistant rules not about punishment. Dr Spock wrote that prisons are < filled with violent criminals that were hit by their parents. , WOW, I have to say I just have so much respect for you and your patience and ability to stand by your convictions and not hit or abuse your children. I hope I can do the same throughout the coming years. I agree with you whole heartedly. I do not believe if children are not degraded by violence and hitting they will run rampant as little terrors or little wimps. My own sister a mother of 3 doesnt employ violating her children by hitting them or degrading them and they are the 3 most respectful, and most loving children I have ever met. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2004 Report Share Posted July 6, 2004 Sylvia,Yes it always is refreshing wheh I hear of a success story from a person who doesnt employ violence in caring for their children . Debbie, I know the world is full of vipers and vultures and people that will be all too willing to hurt, violate and even humiliate my child if given the oppertunity but our HOME should be the one safe place to fall after a hard day in the world. I dont want to home school her because she is going to have to learn the tools for conflict resolution and how to deal with peers, after all one day these are the people she will be working with in life. I can only instill the integrity in her to know better than to go along with the crowd and the knowledge I will be here to pick her up when she learns why I didnt want her going along with the crowd in the first place. I can instill the love and respect in her that she would never even dream of cursing me or being disrespectfull but to do that I have to respect her boundaries. To me that is not hitting her. I am completely confident if I give my child the right tools to be a moral, loving, CONFIDENT, SECURE, person who can think before reacting she will be more than ready to take on the world. LOL, I dont hit my girl but from what Ive seen her do to other kids that do hit her at play I really,really dont have many fears of her being bullied. In not hitting her I think she has learned a valuable lesson from Mommy, a lesson many of us non bpd took years to learn : NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO HURT HER OR VIOLATE . Thanks for the concern but I believe she will be alright. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2004 Report Share Posted July 6, 2004 sexystarshine, I wish you luck. Maybe you will have a very compliant child. It seems that with each successive child they got more stubborn & defiant in this house. When my nephew came to live with me, I tried all the other routes with him for correction. He looked me right in the eye & told me point blank " If you loved me, you would spank me when I do something wrong on purpose. " I have a 20 year old that I just knew would be in Jail by this age. He too told me that he wanted to know that I loved him enough to stand by my convictions when something was wrong he would learn what it was, why it was wrong, & what to do to avoid the problem to begin with. He would purposely cross the line & have an " I dare you to do something about it " in his eyes & by the words he said. I also went the whole route with him of the time out, loss of privileges,etc. Finally I just spanked his butt. There for a while it was touch & go. He did shove me once as well. I pulled him from school & put him on homeschool. He still saw his friends from school, but I got to pick which ones. My children learn how to get along with people of all ages including younger, same age, & older. They are not limited to one age group. Just like there are various ages here on this list, there are various ages in the home school groups. It isn't isolated as many people think. There are thousands & perhaps millions of us now. We get together as often as possible. Definitely, a home should be a place where you can escape from the world, be comfortable, & feel totally safe. I would wish that for every child & adult. My children feel pretty safe here. In fact they feel so safe that with all the things there is to do here, I get tired of hearing the words " I'm bored " . I see a big difference between my oldest daughter who went 10 years to a public school & my youngest daughter who was homeschooled from 2nd grade on. The oldest one is fearful of the world & will not leave home for anything (She's 22, & my little red head), My other daughter is anxious to make her way in the world. She isn't trying to grow up too fast. We have made a deal that when she finishes school then she will have my blessing to leave home & search for her way in the world. She will be 19 when that happens. That's only 4 years away. In the mean time I can make sure that she isn't raped, beaten, mentally or sexually abused in any way by anyone. By then she will be mature enough to spot the jackaxxes from a mile off. That 20 year old I was telling you about has not been in trouble, is very friendly to people of all ages, & in the Navy right now instead of jail. I had to get him away from children who were leading him astray. Putting him on homeschool & his dad coming home off the road for 3 years really helped turn him around. Just something to think about for you in case you ever get between a rock & a hard place. ;-) Debbie Re: Re: OT: 'Smacking Limits' > Sylvia,Yes it always is refreshing wheh I hear of a success story from a > person who doesnt employ violence in caring for their children . > > Debbie, I know the world is full of vipers and vultures and people that > will be all too willing to hurt, violate and even humiliate my child if given > the oppertunity but our HOME should be the one safe place to fall after a > hard day in the world. > > I dont want to home school her because she is going to have to learn the > tools for conflict resolution and how to deal with peers, after all one day > these are the people she will be working with in life. I can only instill the > integrity in her to know better than to go along with the crowd and the > knowledge I will be here to pick her up when she learns why I didnt want her going > along with the crowd in the first place. I can instill the love and respect > in her that she would never even dream of cursing me or being disrespectfull > but to do that I have to respect her boundaries. To me that is not hitting > her. > > I am completely confident if I give my child the right tools to be a > moral, loving, CONFIDENT, SECURE, person who can think before reacting she will > be more than ready to take on the world. LOL, I dont hit my girl but from what > Ive seen her do to other kids that do hit her at play I really,really dont > have many fears of her being bullied. In not hitting her I think she has > learned a valuable lesson from Mommy, a lesson many of us non bpd took years to > learn : NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO HURT HER OR VIOLATE . Thanks for the concern > but I believe she will be alright. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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