Re: rules for tonight, thanks ugh

[Guest guest]

Dear Les,

Thank you so much. This response was extremely helpful to me. I've

always worked under the assumption that if I was married I would

somehow be safe from nada. And even that if I had been married at a

young age, then I could have possibly spent more time with her and

my family. But your situation helped me to understand, it has

nothing to do with being married! It's about being split bad. If I

was a couple, I would very likely be dealing with these issues in a

different way--just like you. As a matter of fact, I remember once

when I was a teenager, nada commenting how she was so surprised that

I was dating attractive boys, that she expected my sister to be the

one ... (then she trailed off because the insult was too obvious and

she can't handle herself when her insults are direct.) May I just

say I find it particularly awful--just monstrous, really--that your

mother would ever say or imply that your sisters deserve your

husband more or would ever be inclined to try and 'steal' him if

they did. Surely you must see that only a mentally ill person could

possibly come up with something so cruel, so divisive, so absolutely

antithetical to the solidarity and co-existence of a family. I

certainly regret my own nada's making sure that I never had a real

sister. Your nada has tried so hard to make sure that you never had

a husband as well, it seems ... Luckily that was not up to her, but

you and him, and congratulations for living through it. At any rate

this whole revelation is huge for me, so thank you very much.

Cheers

Ch

>

> Dear Charlie,

>

> You deserve a medal. I wish I were there. I'd give you a hug and

your

> nada a good punch. ;P

>

> My nada was both a subtle and a rager nada. The subtle one is

harder

> to deal with, I think. Everyone (no matter how mentally healthy)

is

> put off by a rager. People don't get it when you describe what

your

> subtle nada has said to you. You don't even have to explain her

> inflection to us. We " hear " her loud and clear.

>

> I feel so bad for you. My nada wants to annihilate me too. The

> invalidating, the veiled insults, the worshipping (I never

understood

> why that part made me feel so uneasy--thanks for the insight) --

all so

> familiar. Dealing with a person like her is a no-win situation.

In

> my experience, you cannot deal with them and feel happy about the

> outcome. They continue to wound you on a basic level. It's just

what

> they do.

>

> It seems as if they choose sex/partnerships a lot to attack. Maybe

> it's because that goes to our core, not only of who we are, but the

> way we want to live our lives. My nada continually undermined my

> ability to keep my husband's interest. I have three very beautiful

> and funny sisters, and it was constantly implied that they could

take

> him away from me. For that matter--anyone apparently could because

> when he failed to betray me, she manufactured a story about me

> catching him in bed with another woman. (I explained that in

another

> post.) It seems as if they will take things as far as they must to

> prove they're right.

>

> > My overall goal would have been to keep from saying anything at

all

> > that opened myself up to invalidation. No opinions, no plans

for

> > the future, no discussions about what food I was to order, no

> > decisions or thoughts of mine open for discussion.

Unfortunately I

> > hadn't the time to train for this...

>

> I really believe that you could not have come out of this feeling

like

> you'd succeeded. I thought I'd finally aced the

> my-husband-does-too-love-me conversation. Now all my siblings but

one

> think my husband was unfaithful-- See, girls? Les *can't* keep a

> man. (We've been married 34 years.) I think your nada will just

keep

> escalating, making up a real fish-story if she must to prove she's

> right. No amount of information withholding will save you. She's

too

> bent on destroying you.

>

> I personally, saw my options as limited. I felt I could either

accept

> that I couldn't maneuver to get a good outcome and I could cop an

> attitude (and hope in time it would really stop embarassing me,

> hurting me, and destroying my self image).... or I could just quit

> seeing her.

>

> > Plus it is pretty much

> > impossible to keep from opening yourself up to annihilation by a

> > nada, if your self is in her company. So I wasn't successful

> > entirely, and I did some things I could have kicked myself for--

>

> I have had *so* many experiences like this one. Stop kicking

> yourself. There is no amount of withholding which is enough. She

> will *always* find a way in. You cannot be careful enough.

>

> > discussion about how my hair looked good (how can I explain that

> > this was really abusive?

>

> Don't listen to her. Your hair looks beautiful. And

> congratulations on your accomplishment in your public life. I

hate it

> when they just don't care. But others do care. Surround yourself

> with them.

>

> > There were also lots

> > of the typical food issues--no, nada didn't want to share a

bottle

> > of wine with us, she can't DRINK wine, it makes her sick; no,

she

> > didn't want a bite of my appetizer, she didn't LIKE that, ick

ick.

> > Oh, I was going to try anchovies? Oh gros gros, ick ick how

> > disgusting anchoives are! Food used to make those split bad

seem

> > disgusting is a common tactic of nada's. I'm not sure how I

never

> > developed an eating disorder.

>

> Boy, did that part help me. My nada does the same thing with

food.

> Like you are disgusting if you like a certain thing--just as you

said.

> I had never noticed that. I think it was the anchovies remark

that

> made it click. Mine hates them too. Once, when I was a newlywed I

> made a Caesar salad for a Christmas dinner to which 14 or so other

> people were invited. I put anchovies in it. Everyone else loved

the

> salad. I *like* it with anchovies. But I thought I was

committing a

> horrible sin by not catering to the self-described most-important

> person there.

>

> > Refusing to discuss certain topics is never going

> > to stop this. The only thing that could stop it, if anything,

is

> > telling her she has bpd and getting her to get treatment for

it.

> > I'm not sure I'm willing to do this. Selfishly speaking, I

would

> > rather avoid the consequences it would cause for ME.

>

> Oh, I so agree. You can't have a perfect enough conversation with

a

> woman like that to stay out of the soup. Don't feel bad that you

are

> selfishly avoiding the consequences to yourself by not telling your

> mother she is a BP. Yet another guilt trip. She's sick. She's

> alienating everyone around her. I know my nada knows all this on

some

> level. She'd have to be stupid not to see that she has raised 6

very

> disturbed children and has no friends. But she will not address

these

> issues. She has been to a shrink twice in 50 years, once for one

> visit, the second time for about three months. She only goes when

her

> symptoms of depression are bothering *her*. She has absolutely no

> wish to do anything to improve her relationships with her

daughters.

> She only wants to force them into a lock-step.

>

> >I just

> > don't want this person in my life, this person whose very

existence

> > seems to depend on invalidating my own. But I don't want to

abandon

> > the entire rest of my family, some of whom I love very much.

>

> Think about it. Maybe talk to the others and tell them your

thoughts

> about cutting contact. You will probably be pleasantly

surprised.

> I hope so. Be brave. You're right. YOU DON'T DESERVE THIS!!

This

> is horrible, and wrong and not fair. But it is your reality. Work

> through the grief and then do what you must--whatever that is--to

heal.

>

> Love and support...

> Les

[Guest guest]

>May I just say I find it particularly awful--just monstrous, really--

>that your mother would ever say or imply that your sisters deserve

>your husband more or would ever be inclined to try and 'steal' him

>if they did. Surely you must see that only a mentally ill person

>could possibly come up with something so cruel, so divisive, so

>absolutely antithetical to the solidarity and co-existence of a

>family.

Charlotte,

Thanks for your kind words to . I also appreciate that you see

how hurtful it is to the sisters in question (at least to this one)

and to the family's solidarity. 's husband is one of the most

wonderful people I've ever met. I love him like a mixture of father

and brother. I'm the oldest of 's three younger sisters and I

was a whopping 12 years old when they were married. Holy cow! How

sick for nada to think that any of us would be attractive to 's

husband. He's not a child molester for god's sake! I was actually not

the sister voted " most likely to steal a sister's husband. " That

award goes to the youngest sister of all. She must've been 8 years

old when Les was wed. The more I think about this, the sicker it

makes me. Let's see here... Les can't hold onto a man, the rest of us

would steal one, 's husband would run off with a kid if only

she would try to tempt him... yuck and double yuck!

I have to say that being on this list is really stirring up some

crap. I've been angry for a long time, but I'm getting really really

pissed off. Maybe I'll calm back down after I've been on for a while.

Love,

Al

P.S. Only deserves Bill... (and now she's trying to decide

whether that's a good thing or a bad thing!)

[Guest guest]

>May I just say I find it particularly awful--just monstrous, really--

>that your mother would ever say or imply that your sisters deserve

>your husband more or would ever be inclined to try and 'steal' him

>if they did. Surely you must see that only a mentally ill person

>could possibly come up with something so cruel, so divisive, so

>absolutely antithetical to the solidarity and co-existence of a

>family.

Charlotte,

Thanks for your kind words to . I also appreciate that you see

how hurtful it is to the sisters in question (at least to this one)

and to the family's solidarity. 's husband is one of the most

wonderful people I've ever met. I love him like a mixture of father

and brother. I'm the oldest of 's three younger sisters and I

was a whopping 12 years old when they were married. Holy cow! How

sick for nada to think that any of us would be attractive to 's

husband. He's not a child molester for god's sake! I was actually not

the sister voted " most likely to steal a sister's husband. " That

award goes to the youngest sister of all. She must've been 8 years

old when Les was wed. The more I think about this, the sicker it

makes me. Let's see here... Les can't hold onto a man, the rest of us

would steal one, 's husband would run off with a kid if only

she would try to tempt him... yuck and double yuck!

I have to say that being on this list is really stirring up some

crap. I've been angry for a long time, but I'm getting really really

pissed off. Maybe I'll calm back down after I've been on for a while.

Love,

Al

P.S. Only deserves Bill... (and now she's trying to decide

whether that's a good thing or a bad thing!)

[Guest guest]

>May I just say I find it particularly awful--just monstrous, really--

>that your mother would ever say or imply that your sisters deserve

>your husband more or would ever be inclined to try and 'steal' him

>if they did. Surely you must see that only a mentally ill person

>could possibly come up with something so cruel, so divisive, so

>absolutely antithetical to the solidarity and co-existence of a

>family.

Charlotte,

Thanks for your kind words to . I also appreciate that you see

how hurtful it is to the sisters in question (at least to this one)

and to the family's solidarity. 's husband is one of the most

wonderful people I've ever met. I love him like a mixture of father

and brother. I'm the oldest of 's three younger sisters and I

was a whopping 12 years old when they were married. Holy cow! How

sick for nada to think that any of us would be attractive to 's

husband. He's not a child molester for god's sake! I was actually not

the sister voted " most likely to steal a sister's husband. " That

award goes to the youngest sister of all. She must've been 8 years

old when Les was wed. The more I think about this, the sicker it

makes me. Let's see here... Les can't hold onto a man, the rest of us

would steal one, 's husband would run off with a kid if only

she would try to tempt him... yuck and double yuck!

I have to say that being on this list is really stirring up some

crap. I've been angry for a long time, but I'm getting really really

pissed off. Maybe I'll calm back down after I've been on for a while.

Love,

Al

P.S. Only deserves Bill... (and now she's trying to decide

whether that's a good thing or a bad thing!)

[Guest guest]

Dear Charlotte,

No, being married is not necessarily the answer. Even a sharp, caring

man (who had a non-BP mother) has trouble seeing what's happening when

he marries into a family with a high functioning Borderline. You

spend some time (sometimes a lot of time) convincing your husband what

she really is. Some of my sisters' husbands never did get it. They

really liked nada and didn't know what the problem with all of us was.

My husband didn't get it entirely at first, though he did believe me.

Finally one day, we went to nada's house. I was feeling fragile and

she'd been riding me and I was afraid. I told him not to leave me

alone with her. She tried all day to cut me from the group so she

could do her magic. Finally she took me into her bedroom knowing my

husband wouldn't follow. She then chewed me out for so obviously

telling him I didn't want to be alone with her. I was terrified and

denied everything. (Honest, I didn't tell him that. Why would I not

want to be alone with you?)

When we got home, I was crying and told him about it. From that

moment on he knew she was making conscious decisions to make me

miserable. If she hadn't had something she wanted to hide from

everyone else, why was it necessary to get me alone? Why did she even

notice that we *weren't* alone?

I think your nada is horrible. She reminds me so much of Al's and

mine. I know with pretty much certainty that I would never have been

feeling as well as I am if I had continued to see and speak to her. I

--and Al too--were just too battered. We couldn't think straight we

were so preoccupied with dealing with her. We'd get one of her

strategies figured out, try to deal with her lovingly from that angle,

and she'd come at us through another of our weaknesses.

It is monstrous that my mother said my sister could " have " my husband

if she wanted him. I'm ashamed to say it never occured to me that it

was also an insult to my sister! I guess that's because on some level

I believed it. I had no real belief that I *could* keep him. (Al's

right. He's pretty neat.) After all, my sister was the sexy one. She

was the one men loved. She drove them to distraction. They all

wanted her. I was a prude. An old-maid type. Too inflexible to

sustain a relationship. But (34 years later) apparently not. Too bad

I let that define me for the majority of my life.

I'm glad you're better today. You hang in there.

Les