Re: working toward forgiveness

[Guest guest]

i don't get to the website as often as I would like but I'm confused about

this forgiveness business. I don't frankly see what forgiveness has to do with

anything. The universe was grossly unfair to give me a nada when other people

got real mommies. but that is what is. I don't forgive her. I don't much

want to think about her anymore. Periodically she rears her ugly head and

tries to barge into our lives and then I have to think about her until I get

extracated. I consider myself fortunate that I don't have to stay in contact

with

her for any reason. That's my take on forgiveness. I think a lot of this

forgiveness business is based on religion not on any double blind tested study.

Any comments out there?

[Guest guest]

i don't get to the website as often as I would like but I'm confused about

this forgiveness business. I don't frankly see what forgiveness has to do with

anything. The universe was grossly unfair to give me a nada when other people

got real mommies. but that is what is. I don't forgive her. I don't much

want to think about her anymore. Periodically she rears her ugly head and

tries to barge into our lives and then I have to think about her until I get

extracated. I consider myself fortunate that I don't have to stay in contact

with

her for any reason. That's my take on forgiveness. I think a lot of this

forgiveness business is based on religion not on any double blind tested study.

Any comments out there?

[Guest guest]

i don't get to the website as often as I would like but I'm confused about

this forgiveness business. I don't frankly see what forgiveness has to do with

anything. The universe was grossly unfair to give me a nada when other people

got real mommies. but that is what is. I don't forgive her. I don't much

want to think about her anymore. Periodically she rears her ugly head and

tries to barge into our lives and then I have to think about her until I get

extracated. I consider myself fortunate that I don't have to stay in contact

with

her for any reason. That's my take on forgiveness. I think a lot of this

forgiveness business is based on religion not on any double blind tested study.

Any comments out there?

[Guest guest]

,

Just some ramblings in response to your question. I have been

struggling with the concept and act of forgiveness for YEARS. I

think part of the struggle is that I believe forgiveness is some kind

of reconciliation (even if the 'experts and books' state it is

something else.) However, with your post, I got to thinking about it

again, and may have started to change my persepective.

I have been able to 'accept' that my nada has BPD, and that it

because of this illness that she acts the way she does. (In

conjunction with my father who did not object to this behavior.)

But this acceptance has not helped me overcome the effects of being

raised by her, nor has it helped me get over the depression that I

get whenever I think about her. Maybe it is the forgiveness that

will enable me to think about her, and no longer be depressed? I

just don't know.

I do know that I still get very angry when I do think about her, and

that anger is an underlying cause of depression. My therapist wants

me to bring up that anger whenever I can. I know that I have

supressed it for so many years, and tried to live the fantasy that my

parents attempted to create for us. So maybe the anger will help me

deal with what happened, and through that I will come to

forgiveness?

When I have forgiven others, it was because I wanted to continue with

that relationship. With my nada, I don't want to continue the

relationship. Perhaps this is affecting my ability to forgive. I

know that I am still hanging onto the hurt, because I don't want it

to happen again. Here is where the experts would tell me that I am

hurting myself by doing this. But I am just not confident enough in

myself to let it go - yet. I have accepted that I cannot forgive my

nada...yet. Maybe I will be able to in the future. Maybe not. But I

am not depending upon forgiving her to change me in any way.

It is interesting. When I try to picture forgiving nada, I see a gray

mist in my mind. For many years in therapy, I was stopped by just

such a vision. I could only go so far with my thoughts, and then they

stopped....and all I could see was this gray mist. Ieventually

realized that the mist was the place where nada stayed in my head -

still controlling me. I am no longer afraid to go there, but now

here it is appearing again when I think of forgiveness. There is

certainly a connection here, but I'm just not getting it - yet.

So much for the ramblings.....

Sylvia

> i don't get to the website as often as I would like but I'm

confused about

> this forgiveness business. I don't frankly see what forgiveness

has to do with

> anything. The universe was grossly unfair to give me a nada when

other people

> got real mommies. but that is what is. I don't forgive her. I

don't much

> want to think about her anymore. Periodically she rears her ugly

head and

> tries to barge into our lives and then I have to think about her

until I get

> extracated. I consider myself fortunate that I don't have to stay

in contact with

> her for any reason. That's my take on forgiveness. I think a lot

of this

> forgiveness business is based on religion not on any double blind

tested study.

> Any comments out there?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It dawned on me that our initial concepts about forgiveness come from

whatever behaivior our parents modeled. (LIke many of you) my

initial understanding was very empty and one of religious law rather

than the freedom from being bound by bitterness and resentment. I

know my Nada never has really forgiven anyone, though she has claimed

to before....hmmmmmm...just something to chew on.

Blessings,

[Guest guest]

Hi,

In my foo, expectance and forgiveness were basically the same thing... so I

truly struggled with understanding how this all worked.

It took me awhile, but I'm now able to Not except what was done and see it as

the abuse it was ,but I CAN forgive her only because of the realization that she

truly is a disturbed individual. I'm even over much of the anger....after

all....I wouldn't be angry at someone for being ill with cancer. I know that

sounds like a stretch...but she IS ill...and refuses to get help.

The one thing that really keeps me grounded is the fact that I am not the person

she tried to make me. That I had somehow remained true to myself...good grief!

we all have! After all that we have been through...We're here aren't we?

Warm thoughts everyone!

.

Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner

" Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via

1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to:

http://www.BPDCentral.com

[Guest guest]

<....I wouldn't be angry at someone for being ill with cancer. >>

My parents would be angry at someone for being ill with cancer. I

had a cousin who died at 13 of cancer and according to my parents it

was her fault for not eating right.

I had pneumonia and they delayed getting medical care until I was

almost dead. I felt terribly ashamed for being such a bad kid as to

catch pneumonia. I hid on the floor of the car on the way to the

hospital so nobody could see the bad kid.

I have a long way to go before I can comprehend forgiveness.

- Dan

[Guest guest]

There is one major difference between somone with cancer and BPD. Someones

elses cancer cant infect your life.

Also if someone has cancer and just decides that they dont feel like

going through chemo to heal from it and live a fufilled life I would be hurt

and

angry at them for their complacency.

So why should it be any different from a BPD who would rather make thier

life and everyone elses life Hell rather get treatment for the illness?

[Guest guest]

Dan,

Let's send your parents to nada island, too. Or would you like them

to go somewhere else? In any case, I suggest that we parachute them

down, with special consideration so that they get dropped on their

heads!

My parents had similar beliefs. They thought that whenever something

bad happened to anyone, it was because that person did something to

deserve it. And I learned that lesson very well, With children, nada

was particularly messed up. She did not recognize them as

individual, rather something to control and manipulate for her

enjoyment. She also thought children were very manipulative, and had

to be controlled. I think this was projection on her part.

Twice in my life, my parents delayed medical help. I consider both

of them to have been life threatening. But it wasn't until just

recently that I was able to see this for what it really was.

Previously, I just considered that both times it was really my

fault..... " if I hadn't, then they wouldn't have had to..... "

I am sorry for that little boy hidding in the car. He needed to be

held in loving arms during that trip to the hospital.

Take care,

Sylvia

> <....I wouldn't be angry at someone for being ill with cancer. >>

>

> My parents would be angry at someone for being ill with cancer. I

> had a cousin who died at 13 of cancer and according to my parents

it

> was her fault for not eating right.

>

> I had pneumonia and they delayed getting medical care until I was

> almost dead. I felt terribly ashamed for being such a bad kid as

to

> catch pneumonia. I hid on the floor of the car on the way to the

> hospital so nobody could see the bad kid.

>

> I have a long way to go before I can comprehend forgiveness.

>

> - Dan

[Guest guest]

My god Dan, I'm so sorry that happened to you! Only a truely ill person would

do such a thing to a child!

Warm thoughts fella,

Re: working toward forgiveness

<....I wouldn't be angry at someone for being ill with cancer. >>

My parents would be angry at someone for being ill with cancer. I

had a cousin who died at 13 of cancer and according to my parents it

was her fault for not eating right.

I had pneumonia and they delayed getting medical care until I was

almost dead. I felt terribly ashamed for being such a bad kid as to

catch pneumonia. I hid on the floor of the car on the way to the

hospital so nobody could see the bad kid.

I have a long way to go before I can comprehend forgiveness.

- Dan

Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner

" Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via

1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to:

http://www.BPDCentral.com

[Guest guest]

My friend had cancer 5 different times and every time....I watched her go

through the hell called treatments....I saw the dignity she had, the courage,

the desire for life....and I can tell you that even tho my friend did not have

bpd...what she went through effected me, greatly. Watching her fade away was gut

wrenching. But she was healthy minded, to EXCEPT her illness and do the needed

treatments.

My nada did not go out and pick this bpd up off the street just to hurt me...any

more than my friend went out and stood in a breeze and caught cancer...that's

what I meant. It was beyond their control. As we have all learned here,someone

with bpd truely feels that they are doing nothing wrong. They are right and so

they are not sick. Therefore they do not need help. Thats their illness...BPD

Re: Re: working toward forgiveness

There is one major difference between somone with cancer and BPD. Someones

elses cancer cant infect your life.

Also if someone has cancer and just decides that they dont feel like

going through chemo to heal from it and live a fufilled life I would be hurt

and

angry at them for their complacency.

So why should it be any different from a BPD who would rather make thier

life and everyone elses life Hell rather get treatment for the illness?

[Guest guest]

>> In ModOasis , " wjseetch " <wjseetch@a...> wrote: My

nada did not go out and pick this bpd up off the street just to hurt

me...any more than my friend went out and stood in a breeze and

caught cancer...that's what I meant. It was beyond their control. As

we have all learned here,someone with bpd truely feels that they are

doing nothing wrong.>>

I think this is an excellent point and I am finding a variant of this

perspecctive is working for me (dealing with it as though it is like

a physical sickness) -- one thing that I want to add though when i

read this.

On some level the bpd thinks they are doing nothing wrong, but on

another level I can't help but imagine in their mind they think they

can't do anything right -- and feel they always (always ,always) have

to prove the opposite. There is a point of defensiveness they

reached (probably long before we met them) that has turned into total

offensiveness towards the people close to them.

I too am just looking for a way to situate the past in my own mind so

it does not interfere so much with my present and future.

[Guest guest]

,

Part of the " being able to forgive " is religious for me. The other part is

that I cannot stand unfinished business. The unfinished business is that

part of me wants to calmly & lovingly talk with my mother about what is on

my heart & have her acknowledge it.

If nothing else I need to find out why this bothers me so much, as I did

live with her alone from the age of 3 to 12. then off & then between the

ages of 14 to 15. After that I was rarely in her home as she made me

physically ill. When I say " live with her alone I meant that from birth to

age 3 my Granny was my mother & I bonded with her. Then I moved with mother

& her first husband. I had siblings of course. In fact most of us kids were

always tossed from pillar to post & I have a lot of anger at what she did to

my siblings. I would say that I am more angry at her for what she did to me,

but at this stage of the game I am not so sure anymore. I feel That there is

some unfinished business that must take place before she is dead. After that

it will be too late for our relationship & it will always be unfinished

business. I believe that it is already too late & was from the time she

found out that she was p.g. with me. But I want to try, & then at least I

can say that I put my best foot forward. Anyway that is my take on

forgiveness. I have never really bonded to my mother as anything except a

sister. I cannot for the life of me truly consider her as anything else. I

think that I did better when I just chalked her whole behavior on the fact

that she is crazy. Now that I know that she is just a spoiled little brat

who never grew up & loves to play head games with people it bugs the hell

out of me. That plays into the " unfinished business that I have with her.

Debbie

Re: working toward forgiveness

> i don't get to the website as often as I would like but I'm confused about

> this forgiveness business. I don't frankly see what forgiveness has to do

with

> anything. The universe was grossly unfair to give me a nada when other

people

> got real mommies. but that is what is. I don't forgive her. I don't

much

> want to think about her anymore. Periodically she rears her ugly head and

> tries to barge into our lives and then I have to think about her until I

get

> extracated. I consider myself fortunate that I don't have to stay in

contact with

> her for any reason. That's my take on forgiveness. I think a lot of this

> forgiveness business is based on religion not on any double blind tested

study.

> Any comments out there?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I will still never just chalk up any BPD persons behavior to, " Oh well,

Poor thing has a mental illness. " Because it is not an illness based in an

organic sense such as schezophrenia or a chemical inbalnce induced

depression,BPD

is just a really screwed up way of thinking and acting that can be modified

if one choses to do so.

Pedophilia is a mental illness too. Being a sociopath ( a.k.a most

serial killers ) is classified as a mental illness. We have become a society

where

any repugnant set of behavior choices are just an illness.

Sometimes a jerk is just a jerk.

[Guest guest]

>

> Can I stick in my two cents worth?

>

> Out of our disorientation and confusion, more

than ever, we want life to be certain. We want the certainty of

answers. But what we find, having encountered a character

disordered person, is that all of our certainty

crumbles.

We become disoriented as if the world has gone awry, and all our

most precious beliefs are smashed against the granite-faced reality

of a psychopath/disordered N. It is a

reality so alien to us and so twisted, and the

psychopath's/N's being so deformed, that we are sent spinning and

wobbling like a satellite loosened from earth's gravity out into

deepest, darkest, unfathomable, unexplored space, with no way, it

seems, to get back. Or, in my case, as if I had been thrown into a

clothes dryer and left on the

tumble dry cycle- knocking against the side of my walls of

disbelief, erratically, bruising, being knocked and jolted

about some more, not knowing where the next blow will come from.

In that dryer, I remember. In retrospect, I gather the evidence

and recount the signposts that I missed, the

history of my abuse that I did not know was abuse, the slow,

insidious, sadistic rape of my mind and heart and soul.

As the proof accrues, and unspeakable reality dawns,

I am finally knocked senseless by it, the shock is so

great.

[Guest guest]

> Nada in a lucid moment

> told me she knows what she is doing but she doesn't care.

mine has said this as well !! When I asked her once why she was so nice to

her friends and so mean to her family, she said " because you HAVE to love

me " LOL good thing she couldn't read minds or I'd be dead !!

>Also I think our BP's

> have distorted thinking that needs straightening out but that is also

learned

> and can be unlearned. This theory makes it possible for me to hold nada

> accountable for her behavior.

I agree...for the higher functioning ones, like my mother...she's said some

things, and I'd say " that's not very nice " she'd look at me and say " no it

isn't, but I don't care " so she IS aware, and made her choice...

Jackie