Re: rules for tonight, results

[Guest guest]

Thank you Sylvia, and everyone for being with me in spirit. The

dinner was far from pleasant--it was not as bad as it could have

been. But it was still very bad. It was also almost exactly the

same scene that my nada has been playing out for dozens of years. I

don't have therapy until several days from now, so if all of you

don't mind, I am going to take a little time to work out the dinner

in this post. This might be helpful for those of you with witch

nadas interested in annihiliting your characaters by verbal and

emotional abuse. It's more for high functioning nadas, but there

might be some conclusions I come to that help others to identify

their nadas' motivations. One goal of both subtle and rager nadas,

I think, is to completely annihilate the separate existence of the

child--anyway that's the goal I'm addressing here in this post.

Read on if it is relevant to you.

It's hard to explain. Her witch mode is suppressed to her, almost

completely subconscious to her. It is a series of tiny daggers that

can be difficult to detect unless you know exactly what you're

looking for. Now I finally do--it's anything desgined to attack my

very personhood. The validity of my existence, my basic right to

exist and make decisions; the validity of my opinions and my self,

my basic characteristics. This is mixed in with attempts at

hoovering, especially in public--so there will be the terrible

implied or direct insults, mixed with disengenous and exaggerated

compliments that sound almost worshipping. These have never felt

good, and now I understand that it's because they are designed not

to compliment me, but to make nada feel a certain way, to feed

nada's pathology in a very certain way--to show her and her audience

that she is really a nice and kind mother and that I would be wrong

to claim otherwise. (Not that I ever even try to do so, especially

not to her face.)

The first hit was in the car, nada mentioned some single man she

knew and then told my father they should introduce him to me. This

is the most sensitive topic with us for a variety of reasons. My

father said the man had a wife. I said absolutely nothing. I

completely ignored it. This was supposed to make me share

information with her--who WAS I dating, was I dating anyone, was I a

lesbian? (I'm not, but that's supposed to be implied, and it's

supposed to be an extreme insult in nada's world). The implication

was also that I was extremely desperate to find a man, any man.

(Also not true but that one WOULD be an insult if it was.) It came

in the car because I had no option of escape, unless I chose to open

the door and tumble out onto the interstate.

Can I just pause here and say what a cruel monster my nada is.

At any rate, I was just completely silent. Before I understood nada

I might have said something in an ugly tone such as " I don't need to

be set up, thank you very much. " But now I didn't fall prey to

that. I remained graceful. But I will admit to all of you that it

still HURT. It was one of those no-win situations. No response

could possibly effectively defend myself (save " I'm married, " I

suppose. I'm not married though.)

Dinner was an ongoing series of smaller, more subtle daggers. My

overall goal would have been to keep from saying anything at all

that opened myself up to invalidation. No opinions, no plans for

the future, no discussions about what food I was to order, no

decisions or thoughts of mine open for discussion. Unfortunately I

hadn't the time to train for this; I had only just realized the

whole situation in the post I made as I was leaving. So I wasn't

quite able to keep from opening myself up. Plus it is pretty much

impossible to keep from opening yourself up to annihilation by a

nada, if your self is in her company. So I wasn't successful

entirely, and I did some things I could have kicked myself for--

opening up what should I order for discussion; actually slipping and

mentioning that people I date tend to have facial hair, when the

discussion turned to the topic of facial hair. There was also a

discussion about how my hair looked good (how can I explain that

this was really abusive? Trust me, it was meant to make me feel

bad, and the tone that was used was how suprised they were that it

did, how I am unable to recognize if it looks good or bad--oh, I

don't know!) I also helped to paint my sister as split good (which

mainly means " desirable to men " in this world) by telling the table

that someone I knew had approached me about how gorgeous she was,

etc. WHY did I do this? I wasn't thinking. I thought I was trying

to make her feel good, but really all I was doing was impulsively

playing into nada's happy pathology. The child in me thought this

was the sortof thing I was SUPPOSED to say. The child in me was

slipping into Oz. The discussion was then about how she would never

be interested in THAT man--he was gros. (Of course, he was a friend

of MINE.)

Anyway, I think that most of the insults done that night were in

tone and implication. Rolled eyes and smiles. Starting to talk

whenever I was in the middle of a sentence--repeatedly. (This was

passive aggressive and very disrespectul). Not being interested in

anything that was going on in my life. I slipped, again--blurted

out my most major accomplishment in my public life--which is pretty

big--and there weren't even any follow-up questions. Believe me,

the statement I made BEGGED for follow-up questions. It was a

pretty big deal. The only follow-up I got was an attempt to find

out whether or not I was dating the guy I had worked on the project

with. " I thought you weren't speaking to him! " (I had never said

so. It was only an attempt to pretend like I had said so, an

attempt to get information to use against me.) There were also lots

of the typical food issues--no, nada didn't want to share a bottle

of wine with us, she can't DRINK wine, it makes her sick; no, she

didn't want a bite of my appetizer, she didn't LIKE that, ick ick.

Oh, I was going to try anchovies? Oh gros gros, ick ick how

disgusting anchoives are! Food used to make those split bad seem

disgusting is a common tactic of nada's. I'm not sure how I never

developed an eating disorder.

It is amazing how miseable a dinner can be without any direct

insults issued. All my life I have never had a good time eating

with the immediate family, EVER, but I never exactly knew why I

discovered bpd. Now I understand the insults that she is making,

where to look for them, what they look like, and what the motivation

for them is. The 'rules' I posted--they were sheilds I suppose, but

only very thin ones. There was no way to stop the arrows from

coming. I am frustrated because trying to annihilate me (and to

prop up my split-good sister)--it is so ingrained at the core of her

mentally ill being, that there's no way to stop it. Every word and

breath and bit of body language she issues is conveyed for this

single purpose. Refusing to discuss certain topics is never going

to stop this. The only thing that could stop it, if anything, is

telling her she has bpd and getting her to get treatment for it.

I'm not sure I'm willing to do this. Selfishly speaking, I would

rather avoid the consequences it would cause for ME. Also my father

has made it clear to me that he is not even willing to consider the

issue of mental illness. (I've hinted at the topic and he's FREAKED

out).

I'm frustrated. I'm not worried about grieving not having a mother

right now... I've always been pretty adaptable about that. I just

don't want this person in my life, this person whose very existence

seems to depend on invalidating my own. But I don't want to abandon

the entire rest of my family, some of whom I love very much. This

situation is ridiculous and unfair and I don't deserve it.

I wonder if she got treatment, if it would be possible to actually

change her core need to invalidate me. I'm not saying I'm going to

confront her about bpd. I just wonder if it is possible at all.

Ok that's enough for tonight. Thanks so much for the support

everyone.

Charlie H

[Guest guest]

Thank you Sylvia, and everyone for being with me in spirit. The

dinner was far from pleasant--it was not as bad as it could have

been. But it was still very bad. It was also almost exactly the

same scene that my nada has been playing out for dozens of years. I

don't have therapy until several days from now, so if all of you

don't mind, I am going to take a little time to work out the dinner

in this post. This might be helpful for those of you with witch

nadas interested in annihiliting your characaters by verbal and

emotional abuse. It's more for high functioning nadas, but there

might be some conclusions I come to that help others to identify

their nadas' motivations. One goal of both subtle and rager nadas,

I think, is to completely annihilate the separate existence of the

child--anyway that's the goal I'm addressing here in this post.

Read on if it is relevant to you.

It's hard to explain. Her witch mode is suppressed to her, almost

completely subconscious to her. It is a series of tiny daggers that

can be difficult to detect unless you know exactly what you're

looking for. Now I finally do--it's anything desgined to attack my

very personhood. The validity of my existence, my basic right to

exist and make decisions; the validity of my opinions and my self,

my basic characteristics. This is mixed in with attempts at

hoovering, especially in public--so there will be the terrible

implied or direct insults, mixed with disengenous and exaggerated

compliments that sound almost worshipping. These have never felt

good, and now I understand that it's because they are designed not

to compliment me, but to make nada feel a certain way, to feed

nada's pathology in a very certain way--to show her and her audience

that she is really a nice and kind mother and that I would be wrong

to claim otherwise. (Not that I ever even try to do so, especially

not to her face.)

The first hit was in the car, nada mentioned some single man she

knew and then told my father they should introduce him to me. This

is the most sensitive topic with us for a variety of reasons. My

father said the man had a wife. I said absolutely nothing. I

completely ignored it. This was supposed to make me share

information with her--who WAS I dating, was I dating anyone, was I a

lesbian? (I'm not, but that's supposed to be implied, and it's

supposed to be an extreme insult in nada's world). The implication

was also that I was extremely desperate to find a man, any man.

(Also not true but that one WOULD be an insult if it was.) It came

in the car because I had no option of escape, unless I chose to open

the door and tumble out onto the interstate.

Can I just pause here and say what a cruel monster my nada is.

At any rate, I was just completely silent. Before I understood nada

I might have said something in an ugly tone such as " I don't need to

be set up, thank you very much. " But now I didn't fall prey to

that. I remained graceful. But I will admit to all of you that it

still HURT. It was one of those no-win situations. No response

could possibly effectively defend myself (save " I'm married, " I

suppose. I'm not married though.)

Dinner was an ongoing series of smaller, more subtle daggers. My

overall goal would have been to keep from saying anything at all

that opened myself up to invalidation. No opinions, no plans for

the future, no discussions about what food I was to order, no

decisions or thoughts of mine open for discussion. Unfortunately I

hadn't the time to train for this; I had only just realized the

whole situation in the post I made as I was leaving. So I wasn't

quite able to keep from opening myself up. Plus it is pretty much

impossible to keep from opening yourself up to annihilation by a

nada, if your self is in her company. So I wasn't successful

entirely, and I did some things I could have kicked myself for--

opening up what should I order for discussion; actually slipping and

mentioning that people I date tend to have facial hair, when the

discussion turned to the topic of facial hair. There was also a

discussion about how my hair looked good (how can I explain that

this was really abusive? Trust me, it was meant to make me feel

bad, and the tone that was used was how suprised they were that it

did, how I am unable to recognize if it looks good or bad--oh, I

don't know!) I also helped to paint my sister as split good (which

mainly means " desirable to men " in this world) by telling the table

that someone I knew had approached me about how gorgeous she was,

etc. WHY did I do this? I wasn't thinking. I thought I was trying

to make her feel good, but really all I was doing was impulsively

playing into nada's happy pathology. The child in me thought this

was the sortof thing I was SUPPOSED to say. The child in me was

slipping into Oz. The discussion was then about how she would never

be interested in THAT man--he was gros. (Of course, he was a friend

of MINE.)

Anyway, I think that most of the insults done that night were in

tone and implication. Rolled eyes and smiles. Starting to talk

whenever I was in the middle of a sentence--repeatedly. (This was

passive aggressive and very disrespectul). Not being interested in

anything that was going on in my life. I slipped, again--blurted

out my most major accomplishment in my public life--which is pretty

big--and there weren't even any follow-up questions. Believe me,

the statement I made BEGGED for follow-up questions. It was a

pretty big deal. The only follow-up I got was an attempt to find

out whether or not I was dating the guy I had worked on the project

with. " I thought you weren't speaking to him! " (I had never said

so. It was only an attempt to pretend like I had said so, an

attempt to get information to use against me.) There were also lots

of the typical food issues--no, nada didn't want to share a bottle

of wine with us, she can't DRINK wine, it makes her sick; no, she

didn't want a bite of my appetizer, she didn't LIKE that, ick ick.

Oh, I was going to try anchovies? Oh gros gros, ick ick how

disgusting anchoives are! Food used to make those split bad seem

disgusting is a common tactic of nada's. I'm not sure how I never

developed an eating disorder.

It is amazing how miseable a dinner can be without any direct

insults issued. All my life I have never had a good time eating

with the immediate family, EVER, but I never exactly knew why I

discovered bpd. Now I understand the insults that she is making,

where to look for them, what they look like, and what the motivation

for them is. The 'rules' I posted--they were sheilds I suppose, but

only very thin ones. There was no way to stop the arrows from

coming. I am frustrated because trying to annihilate me (and to

prop up my split-good sister)--it is so ingrained at the core of her

mentally ill being, that there's no way to stop it. Every word and

breath and bit of body language she issues is conveyed for this

single purpose. Refusing to discuss certain topics is never going

to stop this. The only thing that could stop it, if anything, is

telling her she has bpd and getting her to get treatment for it.

I'm not sure I'm willing to do this. Selfishly speaking, I would

rather avoid the consequences it would cause for ME. Also my father

has made it clear to me that he is not even willing to consider the

issue of mental illness. (I've hinted at the topic and he's FREAKED

out).

I'm frustrated. I'm not worried about grieving not having a mother

right now... I've always been pretty adaptable about that. I just

don't want this person in my life, this person whose very existence

seems to depend on invalidating my own. But I don't want to abandon

the entire rest of my family, some of whom I love very much. This

situation is ridiculous and unfair and I don't deserve it.

I wonder if she got treatment, if it would be possible to actually

change her core need to invalidate me. I'm not saying I'm going to

confront her about bpd. I just wonder if it is possible at all.

Ok that's enough for tonight. Thanks so much for the support

everyone.

Charlie H

[Guest guest]

I am so proud of you - it sounds like you did a great job at the

dinner. It sounds like such a difficult situation and you were so

brave to even go - if I remember right you were going for the other

members of your family - not nada. It's great that you made that

effort for them (and maybe for yourself).

I had some thoughts as I read through your post - I'm really gonna

chop it up - and add some thoughts after what struck me in my reading.

charlottehoneychurch wrote:

>

> It was also almost exactly the

> same scene that my nada has been playing out for dozens of years.

**Amazing how it never changes. I always have this tiny seed of

hope - but no - always the same.

> It's hard to explain. Her witch mode is suppressed to her, almost

> completely subconscious to her. It is a series of tiny daggers

that

> can be difficult to detect unless you know exactly what you're

> looking for.

**Here, too. It's hard to describe to people who never have had to

live with a nada - because it's the whole attitude toward you -

sometimes I feel people think - that wasn't such a bad thing to say -

my mom sometimes says things like that - I know they aren't getting

it. They don't know the tone - the implications behind what was

said - they don't see the big picture.

> Now I finally do--it's anything desgined to attack my

> very personhood. The validity of my existence, my basic right to

> exist and make decisions; the validity of my opinions and my self,

> my basic characteristics. This is mixed in with attempts at

> hoovering, especially in public--so there will be the terrible

> implied or direct insults, mixed with disengenous and exaggerated

> compliments that sound almost worshipping. These have never felt

> good, and now I understand that it's because they are designed not

> to compliment me, but to make nada feel a certain way, to feed

> nada's pathology in a very certain way--to show her and her

audience

> that she is really a nice and kind mother and that I would be wrong

> to claim otherwise. (Not that I ever even try to do so, especially

> not to her face.)

**And this is why you need to take care of you first!! And great

that you can now recognize what she is doing. Even though it still

hurts - hopefully you can not let yourself believe what nada said

about you. I think what someone said in an earlier thread that nadas

programmed our buttons - so of course they can push them.

> The first hit was in the car, nada mentioned some single man she

> knew and then told my father they should introduce him to me. This

> is the most sensitive topic with us for a variety of reasons. My

> father said the man had a wife. I said absolutely nothing. I

> completely ignored it. This was supposed to make me share

> information with her--who WAS I dating, was I dating anyone, was I

a

> lesbian? (I'm not, but that's supposed to be implied, and it's

> supposed to be an extreme insult in nada's world).

**I'm bad. nada also thinks being a lesbian is bad. I'm pretty sure

she thought I was for a while. And I have to admit I took some

perverse pleasure in letting her believe it. If she had come right

out and asked me - I would have told her that I'm straight - but she

would just make little comments - as if waiting for me to contradict

her and I would just smile. I know - not nice - but it did feel good.

> Can I just pause here and say what a cruel monster my nada is.

**Yeah - let yourself breathe. And you're right she is.

> I remained graceful.

**good for you!!!!!

> But I will admit to all of you that it

> still HURT.

**I'm searching for a way past this, too. My intellectual side says

why can't I let these things wash over me - I've read all about BPD -

and I know these remarks aren't really about me - but the emotional

side hasn't caught up yet.

> Plus it is pretty much

> impossible to keep from opening yourself up to annihilation by a

> nada, if your self is in her company. So I wasn't successful

> entirely, and I did some things I could have kicked myself for--

**don't kick yourself - you're learning and growing - and we all make

mistakes as we grow and learn. I don't even know if mistake is the

right word - if you were studying yoga and you didn't get the poses

right at the beginning (and that's impossible!!) - they aren't wrong -

they just are there yet and you move into each pose as much as your

body allows - and you never perfect a pose. I think learning to deal

with nada is like this. We want that perfect pose - calmly dealing

with nada without feeling terrible afterwards. Hopefully, if you

continue contact with nada - you will grow into the pose - moving

deeper toward the place you want to be with each practice - it will

never be perfect - but hopefully it will get more comfortable. Does

that make sense?

Personally, I think not throwing a glass of that wine that makes her

sick in her face showed great restraing ;o)

> The child in me thought this

> was the sortof thing I was SUPPOSED to say. The child in me was

> slipping into Oz.

*that child has been there a long time - it's hard to reteach the

child - but it sounds like you are getting there.

>

> I slipped, again--blurted

> out my most major accomplishment in my public life--which is pretty

> big--and there weren't even any follow-up questions. Believe me,

> the statement I made BEGGED for follow-up questions. It was a

> pretty big deal.

**Don't any of your other family members ask questions. Or do they

let nada dominate the conversation and follow her lead.

You didn't mention your accomplishment - but you sound very proud of

it. I hope that your friends have shown support for this - and

congrats on your accomplishment. May you have more like this one to

follow

> The only thing that could stop it, if anything, is

> telling her she has bpd and getting her to get treatment for it.

> I'm not sure I'm willing to do this. Selfishly speaking, I would

> rather avoid the consequences it would cause for ME. Also my

father

> has made it clear to me that he is not even willing to consider the

> issue of mental illness. (I've hinted at the topic and he's

FREAKED

> out).

**I read somewhere that if you can get them into therapy (for general

reasons) - or into family counseling - this news is often better

delivered by the therapist. Also - imho - telling her would probably

have no positive results. She would turn it on you - because she's

not about to believe there is a single thing wrong with her.

>

> I'm frustrated. I'm not worried about grieving not having a mother

> right now... I've always been pretty adaptable about that. I just

> don't want this person in my life, this person whose very existence

> seems to depend on invalidating my own. But I don't want to

abandon

> the entire rest of my family, some of whom I love very much. This

> situation is ridiculous and unfair and I don't deserve it.

*You're right - you don't deserve this. You deserve a loving

mother. But since that is impossible - you must take care of

yourself. Can I ask a question? What if you established nc with

nada - would the rest of your family abandon you - or could you

establish ties with them. I am lucky in the family department - I

won't go to family holidays right now if nada is there. My sisters

feel they must invite nada. That's ok with me - I celebrate with

friends and have a great time. But my sisters make time near the

holidays where my family can visit without nada being there. They

are willing to compromise. Or will you lose your family if you

establish nc?

Again - I think you are so brave and strong for going to the dinner.

I hope that you can find some peace in the fact that you did what you

thought was right - and if finding peace means nc with nada - maybe

that's an option to explore.

I wish you peace and a restful sleep after all this upheaval.

Take care of yourself,

Kath

>

> Ok that's enough for tonight. Thanks so much for the support

> everyone.

>

> Charlie H

[Guest guest]

I am so proud of you - it sounds like you did a great job at the

dinner. It sounds like such a difficult situation and you were so

brave to even go - if I remember right you were going for the other

members of your family - not nada. It's great that you made that

effort for them (and maybe for yourself).

I had some thoughts as I read through your post - I'm really gonna

chop it up - and add some thoughts after what struck me in my reading.

charlottehoneychurch wrote:

>

> It was also almost exactly the

> same scene that my nada has been playing out for dozens of years.

**Amazing how it never changes. I always have this tiny seed of

hope - but no - always the same.

> It's hard to explain. Her witch mode is suppressed to her, almost

> completely subconscious to her. It is a series of tiny daggers

that

> can be difficult to detect unless you know exactly what you're

> looking for.

**Here, too. It's hard to describe to people who never have had to

live with a nada - because it's the whole attitude toward you -

sometimes I feel people think - that wasn't such a bad thing to say -

my mom sometimes says things like that - I know they aren't getting

it. They don't know the tone - the implications behind what was

said - they don't see the big picture.

> Now I finally do--it's anything desgined to attack my

> very personhood. The validity of my existence, my basic right to

> exist and make decisions; the validity of my opinions and my self,

> my basic characteristics. This is mixed in with attempts at

> hoovering, especially in public--so there will be the terrible

> implied or direct insults, mixed with disengenous and exaggerated

> compliments that sound almost worshipping. These have never felt

> good, and now I understand that it's because they are designed not

> to compliment me, but to make nada feel a certain way, to feed

> nada's pathology in a very certain way--to show her and her

audience

> that she is really a nice and kind mother and that I would be wrong

> to claim otherwise. (Not that I ever even try to do so, especially

> not to her face.)

**And this is why you need to take care of you first!! And great

that you can now recognize what she is doing. Even though it still

hurts - hopefully you can not let yourself believe what nada said

about you. I think what someone said in an earlier thread that nadas

programmed our buttons - so of course they can push them.

> The first hit was in the car, nada mentioned some single man she

> knew and then told my father they should introduce him to me. This

> is the most sensitive topic with us for a variety of reasons. My

> father said the man had a wife. I said absolutely nothing. I

> completely ignored it. This was supposed to make me share

> information with her--who WAS I dating, was I dating anyone, was I

a

> lesbian? (I'm not, but that's supposed to be implied, and it's

> supposed to be an extreme insult in nada's world).

**I'm bad. nada also thinks being a lesbian is bad. I'm pretty sure

she thought I was for a while. And I have to admit I took some

perverse pleasure in letting her believe it. If she had come right

out and asked me - I would have told her that I'm straight - but she

would just make little comments - as if waiting for me to contradict

her and I would just smile. I know - not nice - but it did feel good.

> Can I just pause here and say what a cruel monster my nada is.

**Yeah - let yourself breathe. And you're right she is.

> I remained graceful.

**good for you!!!!!

> But I will admit to all of you that it

> still HURT.

**I'm searching for a way past this, too. My intellectual side says

why can't I let these things wash over me - I've read all about BPD -

and I know these remarks aren't really about me - but the emotional

side hasn't caught up yet.

> Plus it is pretty much

> impossible to keep from opening yourself up to annihilation by a

> nada, if your self is in her company. So I wasn't successful

> entirely, and I did some things I could have kicked myself for--

**don't kick yourself - you're learning and growing - and we all make

mistakes as we grow and learn. I don't even know if mistake is the

right word - if you were studying yoga and you didn't get the poses

right at the beginning (and that's impossible!!) - they aren't wrong -

they just are there yet and you move into each pose as much as your

body allows - and you never perfect a pose. I think learning to deal

with nada is like this. We want that perfect pose - calmly dealing

with nada without feeling terrible afterwards. Hopefully, if you

continue contact with nada - you will grow into the pose - moving

deeper toward the place you want to be with each practice - it will

never be perfect - but hopefully it will get more comfortable. Does

that make sense?

Personally, I think not throwing a glass of that wine that makes her

sick in her face showed great restraing ;o)

> The child in me thought this

> was the sortof thing I was SUPPOSED to say. The child in me was

> slipping into Oz.

*that child has been there a long time - it's hard to reteach the

child - but it sounds like you are getting there.

>

> I slipped, again--blurted

> out my most major accomplishment in my public life--which is pretty

> big--and there weren't even any follow-up questions. Believe me,

> the statement I made BEGGED for follow-up questions. It was a

> pretty big deal.

**Don't any of your other family members ask questions. Or do they

let nada dominate the conversation and follow her lead.

You didn't mention your accomplishment - but you sound very proud of

it. I hope that your friends have shown support for this - and

congrats on your accomplishment. May you have more like this one to

follow

> The only thing that could stop it, if anything, is

> telling her she has bpd and getting her to get treatment for it.

> I'm not sure I'm willing to do this. Selfishly speaking, I would

> rather avoid the consequences it would cause for ME. Also my

father

> has made it clear to me that he is not even willing to consider the

> issue of mental illness. (I've hinted at the topic and he's

FREAKED

> out).

**I read somewhere that if you can get them into therapy (for general

reasons) - or into family counseling - this news is often better

delivered by the therapist. Also - imho - telling her would probably

have no positive results. She would turn it on you - because she's

not about to believe there is a single thing wrong with her.

>

> I'm frustrated. I'm not worried about grieving not having a mother

> right now... I've always been pretty adaptable about that. I just

> don't want this person in my life, this person whose very existence

> seems to depend on invalidating my own. But I don't want to

abandon

> the entire rest of my family, some of whom I love very much. This

> situation is ridiculous and unfair and I don't deserve it.

*You're right - you don't deserve this. You deserve a loving

mother. But since that is impossible - you must take care of

yourself. Can I ask a question? What if you established nc with

nada - would the rest of your family abandon you - or could you

establish ties with them. I am lucky in the family department - I

won't go to family holidays right now if nada is there. My sisters

feel they must invite nada. That's ok with me - I celebrate with

friends and have a great time. But my sisters make time near the

holidays where my family can visit without nada being there. They

are willing to compromise. Or will you lose your family if you

establish nc?

Again - I think you are so brave and strong for going to the dinner.

I hope that you can find some peace in the fact that you did what you

thought was right - and if finding peace means nc with nada - maybe

that's an option to explore.

I wish you peace and a restful sleep after all this upheaval.

Take care of yourself,

Kath

>

> Ok that's enough for tonight. Thanks so much for the support

> everyone.

>

> Charlie H

[Guest guest]

Hi KO's,

>

>

>

> It's hard to explain. Her witch mode is suppressed to her, almost

> completely subconscious to her. It is a series of tiny daggers

that

> can be difficult to detect unless you know exactly what you're

> looking for. Now I finally do--it's anything desgined to attack my

> very personhood. The validity of my existence, my basic right to

> exist and make decisions; the validity of my opinions and my self,

> my basic characteristics. This is mixed in with attempts at

> hoovering, especially in public--so there will be the terrible

> implied or direct insults, mixed with disengenous and exaggerated

> compliments that sound almost worshipping. These have never felt

> good, and now I understand that it's because they are designed not

> to compliment me, but to make nada feel a certain way, to feed

> nada's pathology in a very certain way--to show her and her

audience

> that she is really a nice and kind mother and that I would be wrong

> to claim otherwise. (Not that I ever even try to do so, especially

> not to her face.

=========

Oh my goodness!!! Do you know my nada? When she's sending out the

daggers, does she look up and to the left (which I once read was

indicative of right brain thinking which means they're lying) with

piercing eyes as if the daggers are coming right out of her eyes to

you?

> >

> Can I just pause here and say what a cruel monster my nada is.

>

> At any rate, I was just completely silent. Before I understood

nada

> I might have said something in an ugly tone such as " I don't need

to

> be set up, thank you very much. " But now I didn't fall prey to

> that. I remained graceful. But I will admit to all of you that it

> still HURT. It was one of those no-win situations. No response

> could possibly effectively defend myself (save " I'm married, " I

> suppose. I'm not married though.)

>

===============Bravo Bravo, I wish I could have your composure!

>

> Anyway, I think that most of the insults done that night were in

> tone and implication. Rolled eyes and smiles. Starting to talk

> whenever I was in the middle of a sentence--repeatedly. (This was

> passive aggressive and very disrespectul). Not being interested in

> anything that was going on in my life. I slipped, again--blurted

> out my most major accomplishment in my public life--which is pretty

> big--and there weren't even any follow-up questions. Believe me,

> the statement I made BEGGED for follow-up questions. It was a

> pretty big deal. The only follow-up I got was an attempt to find

> out whether or not I was dating the guy I had worked on the project

> with. " I thought you weren't speaking to him! " (I had never said

> so. It was only an attempt to pretend like I had said so, an

> attempt to get information to use against me.)

================Much Congratulations on you project.

>

> It is amazing how miseable a dinner can be without any direct

> insults issued. All my life I have never had a good time eating

> with the immediate family, EVER, but I never exactly knew why I

> discovered bpd. Now I understand the insults that she is making,

> where to look for them, what they look like, and what the

motivation

> for them is. The 'rules' I posted--they were sheilds I suppose,

but

> only very thin ones. There was no way to stop the arrows from

> coming. I am frustrated because trying to annihilate me (and to

> prop up my split-good sister)--it is so ingrained at the core of

her

> mentally ill being, that there's no way to stop it. Every word and

> breath and bit of body language she issues is conveyed for this

> single purpose. Refusing to discuss certain topics is never going

> to stop this. The only thing that could stop it, if anything, is

> telling her she has bpd and getting her to get treatment for it.

> I'm not sure I'm willing to do this. Selfishly speaking, I would

> rather avoid the consequences it would cause for ME. Also my

father

> has made it clear to me that he is not even willing to consider the

> issue of mental illness. (I've hinted at the topic and he's

FREAKED

> out).

>

> I'm frustrated. I'm not worried about grieving not having a mother

> right now... I've always been pretty adaptable about that. I just

> don't want this person in my life, this person whose very existence

> seems to depend on invalidating my own. But I don't want to

abandon

> the entire rest of my family, some of whom I love very much. This

> situation is ridiculous and unfair and I don't deserve it.

>

> I wonder if she got treatment, if it would be possible to actually

> change her core need to invalidate me. I'm not saying I'm going to

> confront her about bpd. I just wonder if it is possible at all.

>

> Ok that's enough for tonight. Thanks so much for the support

> everyone.

>

> Charlie H

===========Hope your feeling better. I admire how you handled

yourself. It is inspiring and I think many pats on the back are well

deserved. It is truly ashame that so much angst, and analysis must go

into a family dinner.

cntbreathe

[Guest guest]

Hi KO's,

>

>

>

> It's hard to explain. Her witch mode is suppressed to her, almost

> completely subconscious to her. It is a series of tiny daggers

that

> can be difficult to detect unless you know exactly what you're

> looking for. Now I finally do--it's anything desgined to attack my

> very personhood. The validity of my existence, my basic right to

> exist and make decisions; the validity of my opinions and my self,

> my basic characteristics. This is mixed in with attempts at

> hoovering, especially in public--so there will be the terrible

> implied or direct insults, mixed with disengenous and exaggerated

> compliments that sound almost worshipping. These have never felt

> good, and now I understand that it's because they are designed not

> to compliment me, but to make nada feel a certain way, to feed

> nada's pathology in a very certain way--to show her and her

audience

> that she is really a nice and kind mother and that I would be wrong

> to claim otherwise. (Not that I ever even try to do so, especially

> not to her face.

=========

Oh my goodness!!! Do you know my nada? When she's sending out the

daggers, does she look up and to the left (which I once read was

indicative of right brain thinking which means they're lying) with

piercing eyes as if the daggers are coming right out of her eyes to

you?

> >

> Can I just pause here and say what a cruel monster my nada is.

>

> At any rate, I was just completely silent. Before I understood

nada

> I might have said something in an ugly tone such as " I don't need

to

> be set up, thank you very much. " But now I didn't fall prey to

> that. I remained graceful. But I will admit to all of you that it

> still HURT. It was one of those no-win situations. No response

> could possibly effectively defend myself (save " I'm married, " I

> suppose. I'm not married though.)

>

===============Bravo Bravo, I wish I could have your composure!

>

> Anyway, I think that most of the insults done that night were in

> tone and implication. Rolled eyes and smiles. Starting to talk

> whenever I was in the middle of a sentence--repeatedly. (This was

> passive aggressive and very disrespectul). Not being interested in

> anything that was going on in my life. I slipped, again--blurted

> out my most major accomplishment in my public life--which is pretty

> big--and there weren't even any follow-up questions. Believe me,

> the statement I made BEGGED for follow-up questions. It was a

> pretty big deal. The only follow-up I got was an attempt to find

> out whether or not I was dating the guy I had worked on the project

> with. " I thought you weren't speaking to him! " (I had never said

> so. It was only an attempt to pretend like I had said so, an

> attempt to get information to use against me.)

================Much Congratulations on you project.

>

> It is amazing how miseable a dinner can be without any direct

> insults issued. All my life I have never had a good time eating

> with the immediate family, EVER, but I never exactly knew why I

> discovered bpd. Now I understand the insults that she is making,

> where to look for them, what they look like, and what the

motivation

> for them is. The 'rules' I posted--they were sheilds I suppose,

but

> only very thin ones. There was no way to stop the arrows from

> coming. I am frustrated because trying to annihilate me (and to

> prop up my split-good sister)--it is so ingrained at the core of

her

> mentally ill being, that there's no way to stop it. Every word and

> breath and bit of body language she issues is conveyed for this

> single purpose. Refusing to discuss certain topics is never going

> to stop this. The only thing that could stop it, if anything, is

> telling her she has bpd and getting her to get treatment for it.

> I'm not sure I'm willing to do this. Selfishly speaking, I would

> rather avoid the consequences it would cause for ME. Also my

father

> has made it clear to me that he is not even willing to consider the

> issue of mental illness. (I've hinted at the topic and he's

FREAKED

> out).

>

> I'm frustrated. I'm not worried about grieving not having a mother

> right now... I've always been pretty adaptable about that. I just

> don't want this person in my life, this person whose very existence

> seems to depend on invalidating my own. But I don't want to

abandon

> the entire rest of my family, some of whom I love very much. This

> situation is ridiculous and unfair and I don't deserve it.

>

> I wonder if she got treatment, if it would be possible to actually

> change her core need to invalidate me. I'm not saying I'm going to

> confront her about bpd. I just wonder if it is possible at all.

>

> Ok that's enough for tonight. Thanks so much for the support

> everyone.

>

> Charlie H

===========Hope your feeling better. I admire how you handled

yourself. It is inspiring and I think many pats on the back are well

deserved. It is truly ashame that so much angst, and analysis must go

into a family dinner.

cntbreathe

[Guest guest]

>

> Thank you Sylvia, and everyone for being with me in spirit. The

> dinner was far from pleasant--it was not as bad as it could have

> been. But it was still very bad. It was also almost exactly the

> same scene that my nada has been playing out for dozens of years.

I

> don't have therapy until several days from now, so if all of you

> don't mind, I am going to take a little time to work out the dinner

> in this post. This might be helpful for those of you with witch

> nadas interested in annihiliting your characaters by verbal and

> emotional abuse. It's more for high functioning nadas, but there

> might be some conclusions I come to that help others to identify

> their nadas' motivations. One goal of both subtle and rager nadas,

> I think, is to completely annihilate the separate existence of the

> child--anyway that's the goal I'm addressing here in this post.

> Read on if it is relevant to you.

*****First, hugs...{{{{{Charlie}}}}}. I am so sorry that you had to

go through all of this. Please make sure to do some loving things

for yourself.

>

> It's hard to explain. Her witch mode is suppressed to her, almost

> completely subconscious to her. It is a series of tiny daggers

that

> can be difficult to detect unless you know exactly what you're

> looking for. Now I finally do--it's anything desgined to attack my

> very personhood.

****This I understand very much. It is how my nada attacks as well.

It is never just one thing, but everything is built upon what has

been said or done in the past.

The validity of my existence, my basic right to

> exist and make decisions; the validity of my opinions and my self,

> my basic characteristics. This is mixed in with attempts at

> hoovering, especially in public--so there will be the terrible

> implied or direct insults, mixed with disengenous and exaggerated

> compliments that sound almost worshipping. These have never felt

> good, and now I understand that it's because they are designed not

> to compliment me, but to make nada feel a certain way, to feed

> nada's pathology in a very certain way--to show her and her

audience

> that she is really a nice and kind mother and that I would be wrong

> to claim otherwise. (Not that I ever even try to do so, especially

> not to her face.)

>

> The first hit was in the car, nada mentioned some single man she

> knew and then told my father they should introduce him to me. This

> is the most sensitive topic with us for a variety of reasons. My

> father said the man had a wife. I said absolutely nothing. I

> completely ignored it. This was supposed to make me share

> information with her--who WAS I dating, was I dating anyone, was I

a

> lesbian? (I'm not, but that's supposed to be implied, and it's

> supposed to be an extreme insult in nada's world). The implication

> was also that I was extremely desperate to find a man, any man.

> (Also not true but that one WOULD be an insult if it was.) It came

> in the car because I had no option of escape, unless I chose to

open

> the door and tumble out onto the interstate.

*****I know this must have been very hard for you.....congradulations

on your non-responsiveness. It is so very, very hard to interact in

any way with a nada.

>

> Can I just pause here and say what a cruel monster my nada is.

*****Yep, you sure can!

>

> At any rate, I was just completely silent. Before I understood

nada

> I might have said something in an ugly tone such as " I don't need

to

> be set up, thank you very much. " But now I didn't fall prey to

> that. I remained graceful. But I will admit to all of you that it

> still HURT. It was one of those no-win situations. No response

> could possibly effectively defend myself (save " I'm married, " I

> suppose. I'm not married though.)

****Hahaha.....that would have at least caused her to pause for at

least a moment! She would have been wondering if she had a brain

margurita and forgot your wedding!

>

> Dinner was an ongoing series of smaller, more subtle daggers. My

> overall goal would have been to keep from saying anything at all

> that opened myself up to invalidation. No opinions, no plans for

> the future, no discussions about what food I was to order, no

> decisions or thoughts of mine open for discussion. Unfortunately I

> hadn't the time to train for this; I had only just realized the

> whole situation in the post I made as I was leaving. So I wasn't

> quite able to keep from opening myself up. Plus it is pretty much

> impossible to keep from opening yourself up to annihilation by a

> nada, if your self is in her company. So I wasn't successful

> entirely, and I did some things I could have kicked myself for--

> opening up what should I order for discussion; actually slipping

and

> mentioning that people I date tend to have facial hair, when the

> discussion turned to the topic of facial hair. There was also a

> discussion about how my hair looked good (how can I explain that

> this was really abusive? Trust me, it was meant to make me feel

> bad, and the tone that was used was how suprised they were that it

> did, how I am unable to recognize if it looks good or bad--oh, I

> don't know!) I also helped to paint my sister as split good (which

> mainly means " desirable to men " in this world) by telling the table

> that someone I knew had approached me about how gorgeous she was,

> etc. WHY did I do this? I wasn't thinking.

*****It is terrible that we have to work so hard at just an

interaction with nada. Thinking so much about what to say, what not

to say, what to do, what not to do....and honestly, regardless of

what we do, they are masters of their 'art', and I think we just wear

ourselves out trying to do the 'right' thing to keep them from doing

what they do.

I think you were just being yourself, trying to make the evening

pleasant. Unfortunately for you, nada takes pleasure in demeaning

you.

>I thought I was trying

> to make her feel good, but really all I was doing was impulsively

> playing into nada's happy pathology. The child in me thought this

> was the sortof thing I was SUPPOSED to say. The child in me was

> slipping into Oz. The discussion was then about how she would

never

> be interested in THAT man--he was gros. (Of course, he was a

friend

> of MINE.)

****So even if sister is split good - nada is still enmeshed in her.

Nada 'knows' who sister will/will not like.

>

> Anyway, I think that most of the insults done that night were in

> tone and implication. Rolled eyes and smiles. Starting to talk

> whenever I was in the middle of a sentence--repeatedly. (This was

> passive aggressive and very disrespectul).

***OMG....I hate that. My sister and I did get to the point that we

told her outright to stop talking because 'insert name' hadn't

finished what they were saying!

Not being interested in

> anything that was going on in my life. I slipped, again--blurted

> out my most major accomplishment in my public life--which is pretty

> big--and there weren't even any follow-up questions. Believe me,

> the statement I made BEGGED for follow-up questions.

TA DA! Cymbals & Drums.....congratulations on your success!!!!

It was a

> pretty big deal. The only follow-up I got was an attempt to find

> out whether or not I was dating the guy I had worked on the project

> with. " I thought you weren't speaking to him! " (I had never said

> so. It was only an attempt to pretend like I had said so, an

> attempt to get information to use against me.)

***And possibly nada rewriting history.....I never know what they

really remember, what they remember in their distorted fashion, and

what they decide to lie about.

There were also lots

> of the typical food issues--no, nada didn't want to share a bottle

> of wine with us, she can't DRINK wine, it makes her sick; no, she

> didn't want a bite of my appetizer, she didn't LIKE that, ick ick.

> Oh, I was going to try anchovies? Oh gros gros, ick ick how

> disgusting anchoives are! Food used to make those split bad seem

> disgusting is a common tactic of nada's. I'm not sure how I never

> developed an eating disorder.

****Yuck....she is disgusting, forget about the anchovies!

>

> It is amazing how miseable a dinner can be without any direct

> insults issued. All my life I have never had a good time eating

> with the immediate family, EVER, but I never exactly knew why I

> discovered bpd. Now I understand the insults that she is making,

> where to look for them, what they look like, and what the

motivation

> for them is. The 'rules' I posted--they were sheilds I suppose,

but

> only very thin ones.

*****You can strengthen those shields. Did you save a copy on your

computer. I thought they were excellent affirmations.

There was no way to stop the arrows from

> coming. I am frustrated because trying to annihilate me (and to

> prop up my split-good sister)--it is so ingrained at the core of

her

> mentally ill being, that there's no way to stop it. Every word and

> breath and bit of body language she issues is conveyed for this

> single purpose. Refusing to discuss certain topics is never going

> to stop this.

*****I understand this as well. I know that regardless of what

boundaries I would set with my nada, she would cross them at some

point, feign innocence, and I would be in the crazy circle again.

The only thing that could stop it, if anything, is

> telling her she has bpd and getting her to get treatment for it.

> I'm not sure I'm willing to do this. Selfishly speaking, I would

> rather avoid the consequences it would cause for ME. Also my

father

> has made it clear to me that he is not even willing to consider the

> issue of mental illness. (I've hinted at the topic and he's

FREAKED

> out).

>

> I'm frustrated. I'm not worried about grieving not having a mother

> right now... I've always been pretty adaptable about that. I just

> don't want this person in my life, this person whose very existence

> seems to depend on invalidating my own. But I don't want to

abandon

> the entire rest of my family, some of whom I love very much. This

> situation is ridiculous and unfair and I don't deserve it.

>

> I wonder if she got treatment, if it would be possible to actually

> change her core need to invalidate me. I'm not saying I'm going to

> confront her about bpd. I just wonder if it is possible at all.

****Based on what I have read, I know it is possible for a BP to

change due to therapy. But the person has to be committed to the

treatment, and accept that there is a problem, and that they are

responsible for taking care of it. That, unfortunately, doesn't

sound like your nada.

You are so right, you don't deserve this.

Is there any possibility of maintaining relationships with the rest

of your family without nada?

>

> Ok that's enough for tonight. Thanks so much for the support

> everyone.

>

> Charlie H

****Remember to take care of yourself.....you need some TLC after

what you had to endure.

Sylvia