Re: Teaching colors questions.

[Guest guest]

> I have been 'lurking' in this group for a while, just reading and

learning.

> I have a

> 4 1/2 yo daughter who's been diagnosed with PDD,NOS and a 3yo son who is

NT

> but with

> a speech delay. I was wondering if you could tell me more about the

> No-No-Prompt

> vs. Errorless Learning. And about Lovaas-type vs. AVB. I'd like to use the

> teaching

> colors method with my son myself (because there is no way that I'd get

> approved for

> ABA services for him) and want to learn more about how to do it right.

A good site for information about what you just asked is

http://www.christinaburkaba.com. is a consultant in New York who

uses the AVB style of ABA, and her site goes into some great detail. But

here's a basic description (I hope).

In ABA, we use what's called a discrete trial. All this means is that

there's a distinct beginning and end to each trial, or instance in which we

make a demand. It's important to know what a discrete trial is, because

that's what all types of ABA are based on.

A discrete trial is made up of three components: the 'SD' (discriminative

stimulus, or command); the response to the SD; and the response to the

response. Let's look at one trial of 'red'. Red is the target, or

acquisition, item. The SD is " Touch red. " There are three possible

responses that a child can give to an SD: a non-response (the child makes no

attempt to touch anything); an incorrect response (the child touches the

wrong item); or a correct response (the child touches the correct item).

Our response to what the child does is called reinforcement, and it can be

neutral or positive, depending on the situation. Keep in mind that this

last part may change, depending on the type of ABA you are using. But

that's the basic gist of things, anyway.

A Mass Trial is what we call a group of discrete trials where the target is

the same. A Random Rotation is what we call a group of discrete trials

wherein we ask the child to perform a series of mastered (previously

learned) targets, in a random order. When we are doing this as a step to

mastery of a target, we make sure to hit (target) the acquisition item more

than the mastered items.

Okay. Traditional Lovaas ABA uses the No-No-Prompt method of teaching a

skill. Most providers have switched to starting with Errorless Learning,

but once the child has demonstrated that s/he can actually respond correctly

to the SD that is on acquisition, they move to No-No-Prompt.

In No-No-Prompt (NNP for short and from now on!), if the child does not

respond with a correct response to the SD within 3-5 seconds, the therapist

says 'no' in a neutral tone (with a neutral face, too!) and re-delivers the

SD. If the child again does not respond correctly within 3-5 seconds, s/he

is again greeted with that neutral no. On the third trial, the therapist

gives the SD and IMMEDIATELY PROMPTS (helps) the child to perform the task

correctly. There is no waiting time in between the SD and the prompt.

After this prompted trial, the therapist usually will check the SD one more

time, to see if it's clicked. If not, a mastered target (usually from a

different skill set that is very easy for the child) is asked, and the child

is 'let go'.

In Errorless Learning (EL for short and from now on!), as the Lovaas people

do it, an SD is given and paired with the prompt ONLY WHEN THE TARGET IS NEW

TO THE CHILD. This is called Mass Prompting, and the prompts are faded over

time until the child demonstrates an ability to perform the task when asked.

Then they move into the NNP.

With AVB, more emphasis is placed on natural teaching and teaching in a more

natural way. A concept is presented in many different ways, teaching 'cat'

as a whole, all at once, for example. The sound the animal makes, how it

feels, what it looks like, what it's called, that it's different from a

dog - all are taught interrelatedly, depending on the child's level. This

is not to say that Mass Trials are not used, but they are few and far

between, as AVB people prefer to use Mixed Trials, wherein a difficult

(acquisition) item may be hit a couple of times, then some more simple

(mastered) items may be done, and then they try the acquisition item again.

In AVB, EL is done differently from the way it is used in Lovaas-type

programs. With AVB, the SD is given just the same, but the therapist waits

for only two seconds before providing a prompt (should the child be either

non-responsive or giving an incorrect response). Then a transfer trial is

done, which is the same item as in the initial trial, and if the child does

not provide a correct response within two seconds, a prompt is again

administered. Then the therapist moves on to more simple SDs, coming back

to the acquisition item after four or five mastered items.

The idea in AVB is to keep things interesting by mixing it up more for the

child, making things functional, teaching play and social skills at the same

time as teaching informational items, and not focusing quite so much on

doing everything exactly the same way between everyone on the team.

I hope this answers more questions than it raises, but if you still want to

know more, feel free to write again. I haven't actually done AVB yet

(champing at the bit to get training), but I've read up on it enough to know

that I personally think it makes a lot more sense for a lot of kids than the

traditional Lovaas-style approach.

-Janna

ABA Therapist, North Vancouver, BC, Canada

BMus, BAPsych

****************************************************************************

*****************

" Home is not a place. It is wherever your passion takes you. " - President

Sheridan, Babylon 5 (Objects At Rest, Production #522)

" Deep calls to deep in the roar of Your waterfall; all of your waves and

breakers have swept over me. " - Psalm 42:7

" Rolling river God, little stones are smooth, only once the water passes

through... " - Nichole Nordeman, " river god " (wide eyed, 1998)

" Nobody else is stronger than I am, today I moved a mountain! I'd like to

be your hero, I am a mighty little man! " - Steve Burns, " Mighty Little Man "

(Songs For Dustmites, unreleased)

http://crosswinds.net/~jlhasd

****************************************************************************

*****************

[Guest guest]

> I have been 'lurking' in this group for a while, just reading and

learning.

> I have a

> 4 1/2 yo daughter who's been diagnosed with PDD,NOS and a 3yo son who is

NT

> but with

> a speech delay. I was wondering if you could tell me more about the

> No-No-Prompt

> vs. Errorless Learning. And about Lovaas-type vs. AVB. I'd like to use the

> teaching

> colors method with my son myself (because there is no way that I'd get

> approved for

> ABA services for him) and want to learn more about how to do it right.

A good site for information about what you just asked is

http://www.christinaburkaba.com. is a consultant in New York who

uses the AVB style of ABA, and her site goes into some great detail. But

here's a basic description (I hope).

In ABA, we use what's called a discrete trial. All this means is that

there's a distinct beginning and end to each trial, or instance in which we

make a demand. It's important to know what a discrete trial is, because

that's what all types of ABA are based on.

A discrete trial is made up of three components: the 'SD' (discriminative

stimulus, or command); the response to the SD; and the response to the

response. Let's look at one trial of 'red'. Red is the target, or

acquisition, item. The SD is " Touch red. " There are three possible

responses that a child can give to an SD: a non-response (the child makes no

attempt to touch anything); an incorrect response (the child touches the

wrong item); or a correct response (the child touches the correct item).

Our response to what the child does is called reinforcement, and it can be

neutral or positive, depending on the situation. Keep in mind that this

last part may change, depending on the type of ABA you are using. But

that's the basic gist of things, anyway.

A Mass Trial is what we call a group of discrete trials where the target is

the same. A Random Rotation is what we call a group of discrete trials

wherein we ask the child to perform a series of mastered (previously

learned) targets, in a random order. When we are doing this as a step to

mastery of a target, we make sure to hit (target) the acquisition item more

than the mastered items.

Okay. Traditional Lovaas ABA uses the No-No-Prompt method of teaching a

skill. Most providers have switched to starting with Errorless Learning,

but once the child has demonstrated that s/he can actually respond correctly

to the SD that is on acquisition, they move to No-No-Prompt.

In No-No-Prompt (NNP for short and from now on!), if the child does not

respond with a correct response to the SD within 3-5 seconds, the therapist

says 'no' in a neutral tone (with a neutral face, too!) and re-delivers the

SD. If the child again does not respond correctly within 3-5 seconds, s/he

is again greeted with that neutral no. On the third trial, the therapist

gives the SD and IMMEDIATELY PROMPTS (helps) the child to perform the task

correctly. There is no waiting time in between the SD and the prompt.

After this prompted trial, the therapist usually will check the SD one more

time, to see if it's clicked. If not, a mastered target (usually from a

different skill set that is very easy for the child) is asked, and the child

is 'let go'.

In Errorless Learning (EL for short and from now on!), as the Lovaas people

do it, an SD is given and paired with the prompt ONLY WHEN THE TARGET IS NEW

TO THE CHILD. This is called Mass Prompting, and the prompts are faded over

time until the child demonstrates an ability to perform the task when asked.

Then they move into the NNP.

With AVB, more emphasis is placed on natural teaching and teaching in a more

natural way. A concept is presented in many different ways, teaching 'cat'

as a whole, all at once, for example. The sound the animal makes, how it

feels, what it looks like, what it's called, that it's different from a

dog - all are taught interrelatedly, depending on the child's level. This

is not to say that Mass Trials are not used, but they are few and far

between, as AVB people prefer to use Mixed Trials, wherein a difficult

(acquisition) item may be hit a couple of times, then some more simple

(mastered) items may be done, and then they try the acquisition item again.

In AVB, EL is done differently from the way it is used in Lovaas-type

programs. With AVB, the SD is given just the same, but the therapist waits

for only two seconds before providing a prompt (should the child be either

non-responsive or giving an incorrect response). Then a transfer trial is

done, which is the same item as in the initial trial, and if the child does

not provide a correct response within two seconds, a prompt is again

administered. Then the therapist moves on to more simple SDs, coming back

to the acquisition item after four or five mastered items.

The idea in AVB is to keep things interesting by mixing it up more for the

child, making things functional, teaching play and social skills at the same

time as teaching informational items, and not focusing quite so much on

doing everything exactly the same way between everyone on the team.

I hope this answers more questions than it raises, but if you still want to

know more, feel free to write again. I haven't actually done AVB yet

(champing at the bit to get training), but I've read up on it enough to know

that I personally think it makes a lot more sense for a lot of kids than the

traditional Lovaas-style approach.

-Janna

ABA Therapist, North Vancouver, BC, Canada

BMus, BAPsych

****************************************************************************

*****************

" Home is not a place. It is wherever your passion takes you. " - President

Sheridan, Babylon 5 (Objects At Rest, Production #522)

" Deep calls to deep in the roar of Your waterfall; all of your waves and

breakers have swept over me. " - Psalm 42:7

" Rolling river God, little stones are smooth, only once the water passes

through... " - Nichole Nordeman, " river god " (wide eyed, 1998)

" Nobody else is stronger than I am, today I moved a mountain! I'd like to

be your hero, I am a mighty little man! " - Steve Burns, " Mighty Little Man "

(Songs For Dustmites, unreleased)

http://crosswinds.net/~jlhasd

****************************************************************************

*****************

[Guest guest]

> I have been 'lurking' in this group for a while, just reading and

learning.

> I have a

> 4 1/2 yo daughter who's been diagnosed with PDD,NOS and a 3yo son who is

NT

> but with

> a speech delay. I was wondering if you could tell me more about the

> No-No-Prompt

> vs. Errorless Learning. And about Lovaas-type vs. AVB. I'd like to use the

> teaching

> colors method with my son myself (because there is no way that I'd get

> approved for

> ABA services for him) and want to learn more about how to do it right.

A good site for information about what you just asked is

http://www.christinaburkaba.com. is a consultant in New York who

uses the AVB style of ABA, and her site goes into some great detail. But

here's a basic description (I hope).

In ABA, we use what's called a discrete trial. All this means is that

there's a distinct beginning and end to each trial, or instance in which we

make a demand. It's important to know what a discrete trial is, because

that's what all types of ABA are based on.

A discrete trial is made up of three components: the 'SD' (discriminative

stimulus, or command); the response to the SD; and the response to the

response. Let's look at one trial of 'red'. Red is the target, or

acquisition, item. The SD is " Touch red. " There are three possible

responses that a child can give to an SD: a non-response (the child makes no

attempt to touch anything); an incorrect response (the child touches the

wrong item); or a correct response (the child touches the correct item).

Our response to what the child does is called reinforcement, and it can be

neutral or positive, depending on the situation. Keep in mind that this

last part may change, depending on the type of ABA you are using. But

that's the basic gist of things, anyway.

A Mass Trial is what we call a group of discrete trials where the target is

the same. A Random Rotation is what we call a group of discrete trials

wherein we ask the child to perform a series of mastered (previously

learned) targets, in a random order. When we are doing this as a step to

mastery of a target, we make sure to hit (target) the acquisition item more

than the mastered items.

Okay. Traditional Lovaas ABA uses the No-No-Prompt method of teaching a

skill. Most providers have switched to starting with Errorless Learning,

but once the child has demonstrated that s/he can actually respond correctly

to the SD that is on acquisition, they move to No-No-Prompt.

In No-No-Prompt (NNP for short and from now on!), if the child does not

respond with a correct response to the SD within 3-5 seconds, the therapist

says 'no' in a neutral tone (with a neutral face, too!) and re-delivers the

SD. If the child again does not respond correctly within 3-5 seconds, s/he

is again greeted with that neutral no. On the third trial, the therapist

gives the SD and IMMEDIATELY PROMPTS (helps) the child to perform the task

correctly. There is no waiting time in between the SD and the prompt.

After this prompted trial, the therapist usually will check the SD one more

time, to see if it's clicked. If not, a mastered target (usually from a

different skill set that is very easy for the child) is asked, and the child

is 'let go'.

In Errorless Learning (EL for short and from now on!), as the Lovaas people

do it, an SD is given and paired with the prompt ONLY WHEN THE TARGET IS NEW

TO THE CHILD. This is called Mass Prompting, and the prompts are faded over

time until the child demonstrates an ability to perform the task when asked.

Then they move into the NNP.

With AVB, more emphasis is placed on natural teaching and teaching in a more

natural way. A concept is presented in many different ways, teaching 'cat'

as a whole, all at once, for example. The sound the animal makes, how it

feels, what it looks like, what it's called, that it's different from a

dog - all are taught interrelatedly, depending on the child's level. This

is not to say that Mass Trials are not used, but they are few and far

between, as AVB people prefer to use Mixed Trials, wherein a difficult

(acquisition) item may be hit a couple of times, then some more simple

(mastered) items may be done, and then they try the acquisition item again.

In AVB, EL is done differently from the way it is used in Lovaas-type

programs. With AVB, the SD is given just the same, but the therapist waits

for only two seconds before providing a prompt (should the child be either

non-responsive or giving an incorrect response). Then a transfer trial is

done, which is the same item as in the initial trial, and if the child does

not provide a correct response within two seconds, a prompt is again

administered. Then the therapist moves on to more simple SDs, coming back

to the acquisition item after four or five mastered items.

The idea in AVB is to keep things interesting by mixing it up more for the

child, making things functional, teaching play and social skills at the same

time as teaching informational items, and not focusing quite so much on

doing everything exactly the same way between everyone on the team.

I hope this answers more questions than it raises, but if you still want to

know more, feel free to write again. I haven't actually done AVB yet

(champing at the bit to get training), but I've read up on it enough to know

that I personally think it makes a lot more sense for a lot of kids than the

traditional Lovaas-style approach.

-Janna

ABA Therapist, North Vancouver, BC, Canada

BMus, BAPsych

****************************************************************************

*****************

" Home is not a place. It is wherever your passion takes you. " - President

Sheridan, Babylon 5 (Objects At Rest, Production #522)

" Deep calls to deep in the roar of Your waterfall; all of your waves and

breakers have swept over me. " - Psalm 42:7

" Rolling river God, little stones are smooth, only once the water passes

through... " - Nichole Nordeman, " river god " (wide eyed, 1998)

" Nobody else is stronger than I am, today I moved a mountain! I'd like to

be your hero, I am a mighty little man! " - Steve Burns, " Mighty Little Man "

(Songs For Dustmites, unreleased)

http://crosswinds.net/~jlhasd

****************************************************************************

*****************

[Guest guest]

This is just my opinion,but I am entiteled to it. I know ABA works for some

children but its techniques seem so mean. There doesnt seem to be any

personal intrest in the fact that the child DOES have feelings and I

personally wouldnt want someone trying to bribe me with an M & M. I had no

desire to to ABA with Abby after I read maurice's book, if anything

it turned me off of it even more. All the teaching I did with Abby was done

with hugs and kisses, not full of No-No or with M & M's. I know that many

people love ABA and to each their own and thats fine, you do what you feel is

right for your child. But to me it is almost like training a dog and my

daughter is no animal.

Pennie

Abby's Mom

[Guest guest]

*WE* are an ABA family. I am SICK AND TIRED of people ragging on ABA

because there are BAD ABA professionals out there treating children

like slaves or animals.

Pennie, we use a LOT of hugs and kisses for rewards.

People who see a video of a session or who come to watch a session

are amazed that ABA looks nothing like what people make it out to

be. Its got to be FUN for the children or it loses effectiveness.

Sometimes, though, when we're teaching something brand new that

Alyssa doesn't get, Mc's french fries are the thing that tell

her " This is the response we're looking for " .

We did 30-35 hours a week last summer of ABA, and my NT kids were

JEALOUS because Alyssa had all these FUN GROWNUPS coming to PLAY with

HER all the time and they NEVER had anyone come to play with THEM!

Once you teach a child to sit, be quiet/listen, and attend, you get

them out of the chair and begin to move toward more natural

settings. Anyone who has a child in a chair at a table for hours and

hours a day and week is creating a ROBOT.

My biggest criticism in the wonderful ABA professional that I know

is that they are not sensitive enough to the sensory issues of the

child. Kassiane is experiencing something that a lot of us see...the

behaviorist says a behavior is behavioral, not sensory, and they work

to shape or extinguish the behavior that the child needs to feed the

senses. We still struggle with that.

Just my 2 cents...

PennY

> I just came from a conference with a Speech Language Professor

talking about Communication Options for Persons with ASD.

>

> He spoke of the many approaches that educators and parents used.

He wasn't pro or con against anything, and he doesn't have any

children, but what he said about ABA struck me. What he said was

when parents make demands for 40-50 hours of ABA a week, and

said " when does the child have time to be a child " . Such intensive

training takes some of their childhood away, and that smaller

increments would be just as effective. I've never done it at home so

I'm not critizing anyone.

>

> Do you parents who do ABA feel like their childs childhood is taken

away? (I mean other than autism)

>

> PECS was cheaper and anyone could do, and signing which of course

you had to learn the signs, many times encouraged eventual speech. I

recall reading some of you mentioning signing.

>

>

>

> I don't know.

> Re: Teaching colors questions.

>

>

> This is just my opinion,but I am entiteled to it. I know ABA

works for some

> children but its techniques seem so mean. There doesnt seem to be

any

> personal intrest in the fact that the child DOES have feelings

and I

> personally wouldnt want someone trying to bribe me with an M & M. I

had no

> desire to to ABA with Abby after I read maurice's book,

if anything

> it turned me off of it even more. All the teaching I did with

Abby was done

> with hugs and kisses, not full of No-No or with M & M's. I know

that many

> people love ABA and to each their own and thats fine, you do what

you feel is

> right for your child. But to me it is almost like training a dog

and my

> daughter is no animal.

>

> Pennie

> Abby's Mom

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

*WE* are an ABA family. I am SICK AND TIRED of people ragging on ABA

because there are BAD ABA professionals out there treating children

like slaves or animals.

Pennie, we use a LOT of hugs and kisses for rewards.

People who see a video of a session or who come to watch a session

are amazed that ABA looks nothing like what people make it out to

be. Its got to be FUN for the children or it loses effectiveness.

Sometimes, though, when we're teaching something brand new that

Alyssa doesn't get, Mc's french fries are the thing that tell

her " This is the response we're looking for " .

We did 30-35 hours a week last summer of ABA, and my NT kids were

JEALOUS because Alyssa had all these FUN GROWNUPS coming to PLAY with

HER all the time and they NEVER had anyone come to play with THEM!

Once you teach a child to sit, be quiet/listen, and attend, you get

them out of the chair and begin to move toward more natural

settings. Anyone who has a child in a chair at a table for hours and

hours a day and week is creating a ROBOT.

My biggest criticism in the wonderful ABA professional that I know

is that they are not sensitive enough to the sensory issues of the

child. Kassiane is experiencing something that a lot of us see...the

behaviorist says a behavior is behavioral, not sensory, and they work

to shape or extinguish the behavior that the child needs to feed the

senses. We still struggle with that.

Just my 2 cents...

PennY

> I just came from a conference with a Speech Language Professor

talking about Communication Options for Persons with ASD.

>

> He spoke of the many approaches that educators and parents used.

He wasn't pro or con against anything, and he doesn't have any

children, but what he said about ABA struck me. What he said was

when parents make demands for 40-50 hours of ABA a week, and

said " when does the child have time to be a child " . Such intensive

training takes some of their childhood away, and that smaller

increments would be just as effective. I've never done it at home so

I'm not critizing anyone.

>

> Do you parents who do ABA feel like their childs childhood is taken

away? (I mean other than autism)

>

> PECS was cheaper and anyone could do, and signing which of course

you had to learn the signs, many times encouraged eventual speech. I

recall reading some of you mentioning signing.

>

>

>

> I don't know.

> Re: Teaching colors questions.

>

>

> This is just my opinion,but I am entiteled to it. I know ABA

works for some

> children but its techniques seem so mean. There doesnt seem to be

any

> personal intrest in the fact that the child DOES have feelings

and I

> personally wouldnt want someone trying to bribe me with an M & M. I

had no

> desire to to ABA with Abby after I read maurice's book,

if anything

> it turned me off of it even more. All the teaching I did with

Abby was done

> with hugs and kisses, not full of No-No or with M & M's. I know

that many

> people love ABA and to each their own and thats fine, you do what

you feel is

> right for your child. But to me it is almost like training a dog

and my

> daughter is no animal.

>

> Pennie

> Abby's Mom

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

*WE* are an ABA family. I am SICK AND TIRED of people ragging on ABA

because there are BAD ABA professionals out there treating children

like slaves or animals.

Pennie, we use a LOT of hugs and kisses for rewards.

People who see a video of a session or who come to watch a session

are amazed that ABA looks nothing like what people make it out to

be. Its got to be FUN for the children or it loses effectiveness.

Sometimes, though, when we're teaching something brand new that

Alyssa doesn't get, Mc's french fries are the thing that tell

her " This is the response we're looking for " .

We did 30-35 hours a week last summer of ABA, and my NT kids were

JEALOUS because Alyssa had all these FUN GROWNUPS coming to PLAY with

HER all the time and they NEVER had anyone come to play with THEM!

Once you teach a child to sit, be quiet/listen, and attend, you get

them out of the chair and begin to move toward more natural

settings. Anyone who has a child in a chair at a table for hours and

hours a day and week is creating a ROBOT.

My biggest criticism in the wonderful ABA professional that I know

is that they are not sensitive enough to the sensory issues of the

child. Kassiane is experiencing something that a lot of us see...the

behaviorist says a behavior is behavioral, not sensory, and they work

to shape or extinguish the behavior that the child needs to feed the

senses. We still struggle with that.

Just my 2 cents...

PennY

> I just came from a conference with a Speech Language Professor

talking about Communication Options for Persons with ASD.

>

> He spoke of the many approaches that educators and parents used.

He wasn't pro or con against anything, and he doesn't have any

children, but what he said about ABA struck me. What he said was

when parents make demands for 40-50 hours of ABA a week, and

said " when does the child have time to be a child " . Such intensive

training takes some of their childhood away, and that smaller

increments would be just as effective. I've never done it at home so

I'm not critizing anyone.

>

> Do you parents who do ABA feel like their childs childhood is taken

away? (I mean other than autism)

>

> PECS was cheaper and anyone could do, and signing which of course

you had to learn the signs, many times encouraged eventual speech. I

recall reading some of you mentioning signing.

>

>

>

> I don't know.

> Re: Teaching colors questions.

>

>

> This is just my opinion,but I am entiteled to it. I know ABA

works for some

> children but its techniques seem so mean. There doesnt seem to be

any

> personal intrest in the fact that the child DOES have feelings

and I

> personally wouldnt want someone trying to bribe me with an M & M. I

had no

> desire to to ABA with Abby after I read maurice's book,

if anything

> it turned me off of it even more. All the teaching I did with

Abby was done

> with hugs and kisses, not full of No-No or with M & M's. I know

that many

> people love ABA and to each their own and thats fine, you do what

you feel is

> right for your child. But to me it is almost like training a dog

and my

> daughter is no animal.

>

> Pennie

> Abby's Mom

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, I have a 4 yr old girl with autism and we dont do ABA, because we just cant

afford it. She goes to an early intervention centre 5 hours a week and I work

with her at home on things such as threading, hand eye co ordination things,

with colour recognition, I have 4 coloured bowls. I have matching coloured pegs.

I hold up the peg and ask her which bowl? She hands me the pec picture for the

peg colour and she is now getting it right 100%. I spend about 3 - 5mins with

her at activitys at home and then let her wander for a few minutes then back to

sitting down and onto something else. We dont do 40 hours at all, maybe 1 hour a

day. But when she is outside for instance, she wears no shoes, my hubby freaks

out about it, but I think its good for her to feel surfaces and textures with

her feet, its all learning. She is non verbal and uses pecs very well. She has

spoken, only at creche and has not decided in her mind to use that as her form

of communication. She will be starting at an Autistic school next year and go 40

hours per week with OT's, speech therapists the whole lot for her. So I am so

pleased about that. Annette

Re: Teaching colors questions.

> I have been 'lurking' in this group for a while, just reading and

learning.

> I have a

> 4 1/2 yo daughter who's been diagnosed with PDD,NOS and a 3yo son who is

NT

> but with

> a speech delay. I was wondering if you could tell me more about the

> No-No-Prompt

> vs. Errorless Learning. And about Lovaas-type vs. AVB. I'd like to use the

> teaching

> colors method with my son myself (because there is no way that I'd get

> approved for

> ABA services for him) and want to learn more about how to do it right.

A good site for information about what you just asked is

http://www.christinaburkaba.com. is a consultant in New York who

uses the AVB style of ABA, and her site goes into some great detail. But

here's a basic description (I hope).

In ABA, we use what's called a discrete trial. All this means is that

there's a distinct beginning and end to each trial, or instance in which we

make a demand. It's important to know what a discrete trial is, because

that's what all types of ABA are based on.

A discrete trial is made up of three components: the 'SD' (discriminative

stimulus, or command); the response to the SD; and the response to the

response. Let's look at one trial of 'red'. Red is the target, or

acquisition, item. The SD is " Touch red. " There are three possible

responses that a child can give to an SD: a non-response (the child makes no

attempt to touch anything); an incorrect response (the child touches the

wrong item); or a correct response (the child touches the correct item).

Our response to what the child does is called reinforcement, and it can be

neutral or positive, depending on the situation. Keep in mind that this

last part may change, depending on the type of ABA you are using. But

that's the basic gist of things, anyway.

A Mass Trial is what we call a group of discrete trials where the target is

the same. A Random Rotation is what we call a group of discrete trials

wherein we ask the child to perform a series of mastered (previously

learned) targets, in a random order. When we are doing this as a step to

mastery of a target, we make sure to hit (target) the acquisition item more

than the mastered items.

Okay. Traditional Lovaas ABA uses the No-No-Prompt method of teaching a

skill. Most providers have switched to starting with Errorless Learning,

but once the child has demonstrated that s/he can actually respond correctly

to the SD that is on acquisition, they move to No-No-Prompt.

In No-No-Prompt (NNP for short and from now on!), if the child does not

respond with a correct response to the SD within 3-5 seconds, the therapist

says 'no' in a neutral tone (with a neutral face, too!) and re-delivers the

SD. If the child again does not respond correctly within 3-5 seconds, s/he

is again greeted with that neutral no. On the third trial, the therapist

gives the SD and IMMEDIATELY PROMPTS (helps) the child to perform the task

correctly. There is no waiting time in between the SD and the prompt.

After this prompted trial, the therapist usually will check the SD one more

time, to see if it's clicked. If not, a mastered target (usually from a

different skill set that is very easy for the child) is asked, and the child

is 'let go'.

In Errorless Learning (EL for short and from now on!), as the Lovaas people

do it, an SD is given and paired with the prompt ONLY WHEN THE TARGET IS NEW

TO THE CHILD. This is called Mass Prompting, and the prompts are faded over

time until the child demonstrates an ability to perform the task when asked.

Then they move into the NNP.

With AVB, more emphasis is placed on natural teaching and teaching in a more

natural way. A concept is presented in many different ways, teaching 'cat'

as a whole, all at once, for example. The sound the animal makes, how it

feels, what it looks like, what it's called, that it's different from a

dog - all are taught interrelatedly, depending on the child's level. This

is not to say that Mass Trials are not used, but they are few and far

between, as AVB people prefer to use Mixed Trials, wherein a difficult

(acquisition) item may be hit a couple of times, then some more simple

(mastered) items may be done, and then they try the acquisition item again.

In AVB, EL is done differently from the way it is used in Lovaas-type

programs. With AVB, the SD is given just the same, but the therapist waits

for only two seconds before providing a prompt (should the child be either

non-responsive or giving an incorrect response). Then a transfer trial is

done, which is the same item as in the initial trial, and if the child does

not provide a correct response within two seconds, a prompt is again

administered. Then the therapist moves on to more simple SDs, coming back

to the acquisition item after four or five mastered items.

The idea in AVB is to keep things interesting by mixing it up more for the

child, making things functional, teaching play and social skills at the same

time as teaching informational items, and not focusing quite so much on

doing everything exactly the same way between everyone on the team.

I hope this answers more questions than it raises, but if you still want to

know more, feel free to write again. I haven't actually done AVB yet

(champing at the bit to get training), but I've read up on it enough to know

that I personally think it makes a lot more sense for a lot of kids than the

traditional Lovaas-style approach.

-Janna

ABA Therapist, North Vancouver, BC, Canada

BMus, BAPsych

****************************************************************************

*****************

" Home is not a place. It is wherever your passion takes you. " - President

Sheridan, Babylon 5 (Objects At Rest, Production #522)

" Deep calls to deep in the roar of Your waterfall; all of your waves and

breakers have swept over me. " - Psalm 42:7

" Rolling river God, little stones are smooth, only once the water passes

through... " - Nichole Nordeman, " river god " (wide eyed, 1998)

" Nobody else is stronger than I am, today I moved a mountain! I'd like to

be your hero, I am a mighty little man! " - Steve Burns, " Mighty Little Man "

(Songs For Dustmites, unreleased)

http://crosswinds.net/~jlhasd

****************************************************************************

*****************

[Guest guest]

Hi, I have a 4 yr old girl with autism and we dont do ABA, because we just cant

afford it. She goes to an early intervention centre 5 hours a week and I work

with her at home on things such as threading, hand eye co ordination things,

with colour recognition, I have 4 coloured bowls. I have matching coloured pegs.

I hold up the peg and ask her which bowl? She hands me the pec picture for the

peg colour and she is now getting it right 100%. I spend about 3 - 5mins with

her at activitys at home and then let her wander for a few minutes then back to

sitting down and onto something else. We dont do 40 hours at all, maybe 1 hour a

day. But when she is outside for instance, she wears no shoes, my hubby freaks

out about it, but I think its good for her to feel surfaces and textures with

her feet, its all learning. She is non verbal and uses pecs very well. She has

spoken, only at creche and has not decided in her mind to use that as her form

of communication. She will be starting at an Autistic school next year and go 40

hours per week with OT's, speech therapists the whole lot for her. So I am so

pleased about that. Annette

Re: Teaching colors questions.

> I have been 'lurking' in this group for a while, just reading and

learning.

> I have a

> 4 1/2 yo daughter who's been diagnosed with PDD,NOS and a 3yo son who is

NT

> but with

> a speech delay. I was wondering if you could tell me more about the

> No-No-Prompt

> vs. Errorless Learning. And about Lovaas-type vs. AVB. I'd like to use the

> teaching

> colors method with my son myself (because there is no way that I'd get

> approved for

> ABA services for him) and want to learn more about how to do it right.

A good site for information about what you just asked is

http://www.christinaburkaba.com. is a consultant in New York who

uses the AVB style of ABA, and her site goes into some great detail. But

here's a basic description (I hope).

In ABA, we use what's called a discrete trial. All this means is that

there's a distinct beginning and end to each trial, or instance in which we

make a demand. It's important to know what a discrete trial is, because

that's what all types of ABA are based on.

A discrete trial is made up of three components: the 'SD' (discriminative

stimulus, or command); the response to the SD; and the response to the

response. Let's look at one trial of 'red'. Red is the target, or

acquisition, item. The SD is " Touch red. " There are three possible

responses that a child can give to an SD: a non-response (the child makes no

attempt to touch anything); an incorrect response (the child touches the

wrong item); or a correct response (the child touches the correct item).

Our response to what the child does is called reinforcement, and it can be

neutral or positive, depending on the situation. Keep in mind that this

last part may change, depending on the type of ABA you are using. But

that's the basic gist of things, anyway.

A Mass Trial is what we call a group of discrete trials where the target is

the same. A Random Rotation is what we call a group of discrete trials

wherein we ask the child to perform a series of mastered (previously

learned) targets, in a random order. When we are doing this as a step to

mastery of a target, we make sure to hit (target) the acquisition item more

than the mastered items.

Okay. Traditional Lovaas ABA uses the No-No-Prompt method of teaching a

skill. Most providers have switched to starting with Errorless Learning,

but once the child has demonstrated that s/he can actually respond correctly

to the SD that is on acquisition, they move to No-No-Prompt.

In No-No-Prompt (NNP for short and from now on!), if the child does not

respond with a correct response to the SD within 3-5 seconds, the therapist

says 'no' in a neutral tone (with a neutral face, too!) and re-delivers the

SD. If the child again does not respond correctly within 3-5 seconds, s/he

is again greeted with that neutral no. On the third trial, the therapist

gives the SD and IMMEDIATELY PROMPTS (helps) the child to perform the task

correctly. There is no waiting time in between the SD and the prompt.

After this prompted trial, the therapist usually will check the SD one more

time, to see if it's clicked. If not, a mastered target (usually from a

different skill set that is very easy for the child) is asked, and the child

is 'let go'.

In Errorless Learning (EL for short and from now on!), as the Lovaas people

do it, an SD is given and paired with the prompt ONLY WHEN THE TARGET IS NEW

TO THE CHILD. This is called Mass Prompting, and the prompts are faded over

time until the child demonstrates an ability to perform the task when asked.

Then they move into the NNP.

With AVB, more emphasis is placed on natural teaching and teaching in a more

natural way. A concept is presented in many different ways, teaching 'cat'

as a whole, all at once, for example. The sound the animal makes, how it

feels, what it looks like, what it's called, that it's different from a

dog - all are taught interrelatedly, depending on the child's level. This

is not to say that Mass Trials are not used, but they are few and far

between, as AVB people prefer to use Mixed Trials, wherein a difficult

(acquisition) item may be hit a couple of times, then some more simple

(mastered) items may be done, and then they try the acquisition item again.

In AVB, EL is done differently from the way it is used in Lovaas-type

programs. With AVB, the SD is given just the same, but the therapist waits

for only two seconds before providing a prompt (should the child be either

non-responsive or giving an incorrect response). Then a transfer trial is

done, which is the same item as in the initial trial, and if the child does

not provide a correct response within two seconds, a prompt is again

administered. Then the therapist moves on to more simple SDs, coming back

to the acquisition item after four or five mastered items.

The idea in AVB is to keep things interesting by mixing it up more for the

child, making things functional, teaching play and social skills at the same

time as teaching informational items, and not focusing quite so much on

doing everything exactly the same way between everyone on the team.

I hope this answers more questions than it raises, but if you still want to

know more, feel free to write again. I haven't actually done AVB yet

(champing at the bit to get training), but I've read up on it enough to know

that I personally think it makes a lot more sense for a lot of kids than the

traditional Lovaas-style approach.

-Janna

ABA Therapist, North Vancouver, BC, Canada

BMus, BAPsych

****************************************************************************

*****************

" Home is not a place. It is wherever your passion takes you. " - President

Sheridan, Babylon 5 (Objects At Rest, Production #522)

" Deep calls to deep in the roar of Your waterfall; all of your waves and

breakers have swept over me. " - Psalm 42:7

" Rolling river God, little stones are smooth, only once the water passes

through... " - Nichole Nordeman, " river god " (wide eyed, 1998)

" Nobody else is stronger than I am, today I moved a mountain! I'd like to

be your hero, I am a mighty little man! " - Steve Burns, " Mighty Little Man "

(Songs For Dustmites, unreleased)

http://crosswinds.net/~jlhasd

****************************************************************************

*****************

[Guest guest]

Hi, I have a 4 yr old girl with autism and we dont do ABA, because we just cant

afford it. She goes to an early intervention centre 5 hours a week and I work

with her at home on things such as threading, hand eye co ordination things,

with colour recognition, I have 4 coloured bowls. I have matching coloured pegs.

I hold up the peg and ask her which bowl? She hands me the pec picture for the

peg colour and she is now getting it right 100%. I spend about 3 - 5mins with

her at activitys at home and then let her wander for a few minutes then back to

sitting down and onto something else. We dont do 40 hours at all, maybe 1 hour a

day. But when she is outside for instance, she wears no shoes, my hubby freaks

out about it, but I think its good for her to feel surfaces and textures with

her feet, its all learning. She is non verbal and uses pecs very well. She has

spoken, only at creche and has not decided in her mind to use that as her form

of communication. She will be starting at an Autistic school next year and go 40

hours per week with OT's, speech therapists the whole lot for her. So I am so

pleased about that. Annette

Re: Teaching colors questions.

> I have been 'lurking' in this group for a while, just reading and

learning.

> I have a

> 4 1/2 yo daughter who's been diagnosed with PDD,NOS and a 3yo son who is

NT

> but with

> a speech delay. I was wondering if you could tell me more about the

> No-No-Prompt

> vs. Errorless Learning. And about Lovaas-type vs. AVB. I'd like to use the

> teaching

> colors method with my son myself (because there is no way that I'd get

> approved for

> ABA services for him) and want to learn more about how to do it right.

A good site for information about what you just asked is

http://www.christinaburkaba.com. is a consultant in New York who

uses the AVB style of ABA, and her site goes into some great detail. But

here's a basic description (I hope).

In ABA, we use what's called a discrete trial. All this means is that

there's a distinct beginning and end to each trial, or instance in which we

make a demand. It's important to know what a discrete trial is, because

that's what all types of ABA are based on.

A discrete trial is made up of three components: the 'SD' (discriminative

stimulus, or command); the response to the SD; and the response to the

response. Let's look at one trial of 'red'. Red is the target, or

acquisition, item. The SD is " Touch red. " There are three possible

responses that a child can give to an SD: a non-response (the child makes no

attempt to touch anything); an incorrect response (the child touches the

wrong item); or a correct response (the child touches the correct item).

Our response to what the child does is called reinforcement, and it can be

neutral or positive, depending on the situation. Keep in mind that this

last part may change, depending on the type of ABA you are using. But

that's the basic gist of things, anyway.

A Mass Trial is what we call a group of discrete trials where the target is

the same. A Random Rotation is what we call a group of discrete trials

wherein we ask the child to perform a series of mastered (previously

learned) targets, in a random order. When we are doing this as a step to

mastery of a target, we make sure to hit (target) the acquisition item more

than the mastered items.

Okay. Traditional Lovaas ABA uses the No-No-Prompt method of teaching a

skill. Most providers have switched to starting with Errorless Learning,

but once the child has demonstrated that s/he can actually respond correctly

to the SD that is on acquisition, they move to No-No-Prompt.

In No-No-Prompt (NNP for short and from now on!), if the child does not

respond with a correct response to the SD within 3-5 seconds, the therapist

says 'no' in a neutral tone (with a neutral face, too!) and re-delivers the

SD. If the child again does not respond correctly within 3-5 seconds, s/he

is again greeted with that neutral no. On the third trial, the therapist

gives the SD and IMMEDIATELY PROMPTS (helps) the child to perform the task

correctly. There is no waiting time in between the SD and the prompt.

After this prompted trial, the therapist usually will check the SD one more

time, to see if it's clicked. If not, a mastered target (usually from a

different skill set that is very easy for the child) is asked, and the child

is 'let go'.

In Errorless Learning (EL for short and from now on!), as the Lovaas people

do it, an SD is given and paired with the prompt ONLY WHEN THE TARGET IS NEW

TO THE CHILD. This is called Mass Prompting, and the prompts are faded over

time until the child demonstrates an ability to perform the task when asked.

Then they move into the NNP.

With AVB, more emphasis is placed on natural teaching and teaching in a more

natural way. A concept is presented in many different ways, teaching 'cat'

as a whole, all at once, for example. The sound the animal makes, how it

feels, what it looks like, what it's called, that it's different from a

dog - all are taught interrelatedly, depending on the child's level. This

is not to say that Mass Trials are not used, but they are few and far

between, as AVB people prefer to use Mixed Trials, wherein a difficult

(acquisition) item may be hit a couple of times, then some more simple

(mastered) items may be done, and then they try the acquisition item again.

In AVB, EL is done differently from the way it is used in Lovaas-type

programs. With AVB, the SD is given just the same, but the therapist waits

for only two seconds before providing a prompt (should the child be either

non-responsive or giving an incorrect response). Then a transfer trial is

done, which is the same item as in the initial trial, and if the child does

not provide a correct response within two seconds, a prompt is again

administered. Then the therapist moves on to more simple SDs, coming back

to the acquisition item after four or five mastered items.

The idea in AVB is to keep things interesting by mixing it up more for the

child, making things functional, teaching play and social skills at the same

time as teaching informational items, and not focusing quite so much on

doing everything exactly the same way between everyone on the team.

I hope this answers more questions than it raises, but if you still want to

know more, feel free to write again. I haven't actually done AVB yet

(champing at the bit to get training), but I've read up on it enough to know

that I personally think it makes a lot more sense for a lot of kids than the

traditional Lovaas-style approach.

-Janna

ABA Therapist, North Vancouver, BC, Canada

BMus, BAPsych

****************************************************************************

*****************

" Home is not a place. It is wherever your passion takes you. " - President

Sheridan, Babylon 5 (Objects At Rest, Production #522)

" Deep calls to deep in the roar of Your waterfall; all of your waves and

breakers have swept over me. " - Psalm 42:7

" Rolling river God, little stones are smooth, only once the water passes

through... " - Nichole Nordeman, " river god " (wide eyed, 1998)

" Nobody else is stronger than I am, today I moved a mountain! I'd like to

be your hero, I am a mighty little man! " - Steve Burns, " Mighty Little Man "

(Songs For Dustmites, unreleased)

http://crosswinds.net/~jlhasd

****************************************************************************

*****************

[Guest guest]

I just came from a conference with a Speech Language Professor talking about

Communication Options for Persons with ASD.

He spoke of the many approaches that educators and parents used. He wasn't pro

or con against anything, and he doesn't have any children, but what he said

about ABA struck me. What he said was when parents make demands for 40-50 hours

of ABA a week, and said " when does the child have time to be a child " . Such

intensive training takes some of their childhood away, and that smaller

increments would be just as effective. I've never done it at home so I'm not

critizing anyone.

Do you parents who do ABA feel like their childs childhood is taken away? (I

mean other than autism)

PECS was cheaper and anyone could do, and signing which of course you had to

learn the signs, many times encouraged eventual speech. I recall reading some

of you mentioning signing.

I don't know.

Re: Teaching colors questions.

This is just my opinion,but I am entiteled to it. I know ABA works for some

children but its techniques seem so mean. There doesnt seem to be any

personal intrest in the fact that the child DOES have feelings and I

personally wouldnt want someone trying to bribe me with an M & M. I had no

desire to to ABA with Abby after I read maurice's book, if anything

it turned me off of it even more. All the teaching I did with Abby was done

with hugs and kisses, not full of No-No or with M & M's. I know that many

people love ABA and to each their own and thats fine, you do what you feel is

right for your child. But to me it is almost like training a dog and my

daughter is no animal.

Pennie

Abby's Mom

[Guest guest]

I just came from a conference with a Speech Language Professor talking about

Communication Options for Persons with ASD.

He spoke of the many approaches that educators and parents used. He wasn't pro

or con against anything, and he doesn't have any children, but what he said

about ABA struck me. What he said was when parents make demands for 40-50 hours

of ABA a week, and said " when does the child have time to be a child " . Such

intensive training takes some of their childhood away, and that smaller

increments would be just as effective. I've never done it at home so I'm not

critizing anyone.

Do you parents who do ABA feel like their childs childhood is taken away? (I

mean other than autism)

PECS was cheaper and anyone could do, and signing which of course you had to

learn the signs, many times encouraged eventual speech. I recall reading some

of you mentioning signing.

I don't know.

Re: Teaching colors questions.

This is just my opinion,but I am entiteled to it. I know ABA works for some

children but its techniques seem so mean. There doesnt seem to be any

personal intrest in the fact that the child DOES have feelings and I

personally wouldnt want someone trying to bribe me with an M & M. I had no

desire to to ABA with Abby after I read maurice's book, if anything

it turned me off of it even more. All the teaching I did with Abby was done

with hugs and kisses, not full of No-No or with M & M's. I know that many

people love ABA and to each their own and thats fine, you do what you feel is

right for your child. But to me it is almost like training a dog and my

daughter is no animal.

Pennie

Abby's Mom

[Guest guest]

, I think it probably depends on who your ABA thereapist is, my husband

and I jsut decided to do it all ourselves (with Ellen's help). I didnt

want some stranger. I didnt say ABA doesnt work because for some it does, but

for me it just wasent the way I wanted Abby treated.

Yes I do sign, however my husband is a much better signer then I am. We

signed alot with Abby and that seemed to help her tremendously, but once she

started talking we had to gradually cut it out because it was easier for her

to sign then talk. She has done very well over the years and made great

strides in communication.

Pennie

Abby's Mom

[Guest guest]

, I think it probably depends on who your ABA thereapist is, my husband

and I jsut decided to do it all ourselves (with Ellen's help). I didnt

want some stranger. I didnt say ABA doesnt work because for some it does, but

for me it just wasent the way I wanted Abby treated.

Yes I do sign, however my husband is a much better signer then I am. We

signed alot with Abby and that seemed to help her tremendously, but once she

started talking we had to gradually cut it out because it was easier for her

to sign then talk. She has done very well over the years and made great

strides in communication.

Pennie

Abby's Mom

[Guest guest]

, I think it probably depends on who your ABA thereapist is, my husband

and I jsut decided to do it all ourselves (with Ellen's help). I didnt

want some stranger. I didnt say ABA doesnt work because for some it does, but

for me it just wasent the way I wanted Abby treated.

Yes I do sign, however my husband is a much better signer then I am. We

signed alot with Abby and that seemed to help her tremendously, but once she

started talking we had to gradually cut it out because it was easier for her

to sign then talk. She has done very well over the years and made great

strides in communication.

Pennie

Abby's Mom

[Guest guest]

Penny, that is my biggest reason for holding off on ABA. To quote

one of Sky's O.T.'s, " her sensories are a mess! " I'm afraid they

won't consider how hard some things are for her because of her

sensory issues. Sky hates for someone to hold her hand. The only

time she reaches out to hold hands is while playing Ring Around The

Rosey. Just this weekend we were shopping & I told her she had to

hold my hand. Of course she tried to jerk away & started to whine.

I kept a firm grip on her hand & I told her I knew this was very hard

for her, but we needed to hold hands so she would stay safe. I'm not

sure if she understood, but she let me keep holding her hand &

stopped whining. She still tugged & tried to break free, but at

least we avoided a melt down. I noticed a couple looking at me like

I had lost my mind while I was saying these things to Sky, but oh

well. I guess I need to get used to that.

Wendie

Wendie

> > I just came from a conference with a Speech Language Professor

> talking about Communication Options for Persons with ASD.

> >

> > He spoke of the many approaches that educators and parents used.

> He wasn't pro or con against anything, and he doesn't have any

> children, but what he said about ABA struck me. What he said was

> when parents make demands for 40-50 hours of ABA a week, and

> said " when does the child have time to be a child " . Such intensive

> training takes some of their childhood away, and that smaller

> increments would be just as effective. I've never done it at home

so

> I'm not critizing anyone.

> >

> > Do you parents who do ABA feel like their childs childhood is

taken

> away? (I mean other than autism)

> >

> > PECS was cheaper and anyone could do, and signing which of course

> you had to learn the signs, many times encouraged eventual speech.

I

> recall reading some of you mentioning signing.

> >

> >

> >

> > I don't know.

> > Re: Teaching colors questions.

> >

> >

> > This is just my opinion,but I am entiteled to it. I know ABA

> works for some

> > children but its techniques seem so mean. There doesnt seem to

be

> any

> > personal intrest in the fact that the child DOES have feelings

> and I

> > personally wouldnt want someone trying to bribe me with an M & M.

I

> had no

> > desire to to ABA with Abby after I read maurice's

book,

> if anything

> > it turned me off of it even more. All the teaching I did with

> Abby was done

> > with hugs and kisses, not full of No-No or with M & M's. I know

> that many

> > people love ABA and to each their own and thats fine, you do

what

> you feel is

> > right for your child. But to me it is almost like training a

dog

> and my

> > daughter is no animal.

> >

> > Pennie

> > Abby's Mom

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Penny, that is my biggest reason for holding off on ABA. To quote

one of Sky's O.T.'s, " her sensories are a mess! " I'm afraid they

won't consider how hard some things are for her because of her

sensory issues. Sky hates for someone to hold her hand. The only

time she reaches out to hold hands is while playing Ring Around The

Rosey. Just this weekend we were shopping & I told her she had to

hold my hand. Of course she tried to jerk away & started to whine.

I kept a firm grip on her hand & I told her I knew this was very hard

for her, but we needed to hold hands so she would stay safe. I'm not

sure if she understood, but she let me keep holding her hand &

stopped whining. She still tugged & tried to break free, but at

least we avoided a melt down. I noticed a couple looking at me like

I had lost my mind while I was saying these things to Sky, but oh

well. I guess I need to get used to that.

Wendie

Wendie

> > I just came from a conference with a Speech Language Professor

> talking about Communication Options for Persons with ASD.

> >

> > He spoke of the many approaches that educators and parents used.

> He wasn't pro or con against anything, and he doesn't have any

> children, but what he said about ABA struck me. What he said was

> when parents make demands for 40-50 hours of ABA a week, and

> said " when does the child have time to be a child " . Such intensive

> training takes some of their childhood away, and that smaller

> increments would be just as effective. I've never done it at home

so

> I'm not critizing anyone.

> >

> > Do you parents who do ABA feel like their childs childhood is

taken

> away? (I mean other than autism)

> >

> > PECS was cheaper and anyone could do, and signing which of course

> you had to learn the signs, many times encouraged eventual speech.

I

> recall reading some of you mentioning signing.

> >

> >

> >

> > I don't know.

> > Re: Teaching colors questions.

> >

> >

> > This is just my opinion,but I am entiteled to it. I know ABA

> works for some

> > children but its techniques seem so mean. There doesnt seem to

be

> any

> > personal intrest in the fact that the child DOES have feelings

> and I

> > personally wouldnt want someone trying to bribe me with an M & M.

I

> had no

> > desire to to ABA with Abby after I read maurice's

book,

> if anything

> > it turned me off of it even more. All the teaching I did with

> Abby was done

> > with hugs and kisses, not full of No-No or with M & M's. I know

> that many

> > people love ABA and to each their own and thats fine, you do

what

> you feel is

> > right for your child. But to me it is almost like training a

dog

> and my

> > daughter is no animal.

> >

> > Pennie

> > Abby's Mom

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

> Penny, that is my biggest reason for holding off on ABA. To quote

> one of Sky's O.T.'s, " her sensories are a mess! " I'm afraid they

> won't consider how hard some things are for her because of her

> sensory issues. Sky hates for someone to hold her hand. The only

> time she reaches out to hold hands is while playing Ring Around The

> Rosey. Just this weekend we were shopping & I told her she had to

> hold my hand. Of course she tried to jerk away & started to whine.

> I kept a firm grip on her hand & I told her I knew this was very hard

> for her, but we needed to hold hands so she would stay safe. I'm not

> sure if she understood, but she let me keep holding her hand &

> stopped whining. She still tugged & tried to break free, but at

> least we avoided a melt down. I noticed a couple looking at me like

> I had lost my mind while I was saying these things to Sky, but oh

> well. I guess I need to get used to that.

Sounds like she understood. That's a great thing - means her receptive

language is okay.

If you don't want to do ABA, you might look into PECS or sign as a

communication method - as it sounds like you already have an OT dealing with

sensory issues.

I think communication and sensory problems should be the primary concern of

all autism treatment programs. Unfortunately, many ABA providers don't know

or don't care to know about either.

-Janna

ABA Therapist, North Vancouver, BC, Canada

BMus, BAPsych

****************************************************************************

*****************

" Home is not a place. It is wherever your passion takes you. " - President

Sheridan, Babylon 5 (Objects At Rest, Production #522)

" Deep calls to deep in the roar of Your waterfall; all of your waves and

breakers have swept over me. " - Psalm 42:7

" Rolling river God, little stones are smooth, only once the water passes

through... " - Nichole Nordeman, " river god " (wide eyed, 1998)

" Nobody else is stronger than I am, today I moved a mountain! I'd like to

be your hero, I am a mighty little man! " - Steve Burns, " Mighty Little Man "

(Songs For Dustmites, unreleased)

http://crosswinds.net/~jlhasd

****************************************************************************

*****************

[Guest guest]

> Penny, that is my biggest reason for holding off on ABA. To quote

> one of Sky's O.T.'s, " her sensories are a mess! " I'm afraid they

> won't consider how hard some things are for her because of her

> sensory issues. Sky hates for someone to hold her hand. The only

> time she reaches out to hold hands is while playing Ring Around The

> Rosey. Just this weekend we were shopping & I told her she had to

> hold my hand. Of course she tried to jerk away & started to whine.

> I kept a firm grip on her hand & I told her I knew this was very hard

> for her, but we needed to hold hands so she would stay safe. I'm not

> sure if she understood, but she let me keep holding her hand &

> stopped whining. She still tugged & tried to break free, but at

> least we avoided a melt down. I noticed a couple looking at me like

> I had lost my mind while I was saying these things to Sky, but oh

> well. I guess I need to get used to that.

Sounds like she understood. That's a great thing - means her receptive

language is okay.

If you don't want to do ABA, you might look into PECS or sign as a

communication method - as it sounds like you already have an OT dealing with

sensory issues.

I think communication and sensory problems should be the primary concern of

all autism treatment programs. Unfortunately, many ABA providers don't know

or don't care to know about either.

-Janna

ABA Therapist, North Vancouver, BC, Canada

BMus, BAPsych

****************************************************************************

*****************

" Home is not a place. It is wherever your passion takes you. " - President

Sheridan, Babylon 5 (Objects At Rest, Production #522)

" Deep calls to deep in the roar of Your waterfall; all of your waves and

breakers have swept over me. " - Psalm 42:7

" Rolling river God, little stones are smooth, only once the water passes

through... " - Nichole Nordeman, " river god " (wide eyed, 1998)

" Nobody else is stronger than I am, today I moved a mountain! I'd like to

be your hero, I am a mighty little man! " - Steve Burns, " Mighty Little Man "

(Songs For Dustmites, unreleased)

http://crosswinds.net/~jlhasd

****************************************************************************

*****************

[Guest guest]

> Penny, that is my biggest reason for holding off on ABA. To quote

> one of Sky's O.T.'s, " her sensories are a mess! " I'm afraid they

> won't consider how hard some things are for her because of her

> sensory issues. Sky hates for someone to hold her hand. The only

> time she reaches out to hold hands is while playing Ring Around The

> Rosey. Just this weekend we were shopping & I told her she had to

> hold my hand. Of course she tried to jerk away & started to whine.

> I kept a firm grip on her hand & I told her I knew this was very hard

> for her, but we needed to hold hands so she would stay safe. I'm not

> sure if she understood, but she let me keep holding her hand &

> stopped whining. She still tugged & tried to break free, but at

> least we avoided a melt down. I noticed a couple looking at me like

> I had lost my mind while I was saying these things to Sky, but oh

> well. I guess I need to get used to that.

Sounds like she understood. That's a great thing - means her receptive

language is okay.

If you don't want to do ABA, you might look into PECS or sign as a

communication method - as it sounds like you already have an OT dealing with

sensory issues.

I think communication and sensory problems should be the primary concern of

all autism treatment programs. Unfortunately, many ABA providers don't know

or don't care to know about either.

-Janna

ABA Therapist, North Vancouver, BC, Canada

BMus, BAPsych

****************************************************************************

*****************

" Home is not a place. It is wherever your passion takes you. " - President

Sheridan, Babylon 5 (Objects At Rest, Production #522)

" Deep calls to deep in the roar of Your waterfall; all of your waves and

breakers have swept over me. " - Psalm 42:7

" Rolling river God, little stones are smooth, only once the water passes

through... " - Nichole Nordeman, " river god " (wide eyed, 1998)

" Nobody else is stronger than I am, today I moved a mountain! I'd like to

be your hero, I am a mighty little man! " - Steve Burns, " Mighty Little Man "

(Songs For Dustmites, unreleased)

http://crosswinds.net/~jlhasd

****************************************************************************

*****************

[Guest guest]

FYI: You are going to see sensory issues decrease with dietary

changes. You have seen success with the removal of milk, and Sky

will continue to improve as the proteins/peptides leave her body

(they say dairy proteins take 3 months, gluten can take 9-12

months).

But in the end, my advice is to follow your gut. God gave you a gut

instinct for a reason. Listen to it.

> > > I just came from a conference with a Speech Language Professor

> > talking about Communication Options for Persons with ASD.

> > >

> > > He spoke of the many approaches that educators and parents

used.

> > He wasn't pro or con against anything, and he doesn't have any

> > children, but what he said about ABA struck me. What he said was

> > when parents make demands for 40-50 hours of ABA a week, and

> > said " when does the child have time to be a child " . Such

intensive

> > training takes some of their childhood away, and that smaller

> > increments would be just as effective. I've never done it at

home

> so

> > I'm not critizing anyone.

> > >

> > > Do you parents who do ABA feel like their childs childhood is

> taken

> > away? (I mean other than autism)

> > >

> > > PECS was cheaper and anyone could do, and signing which of

course

> > you had to learn the signs, many times encouraged eventual

speech.

> I

> > recall reading some of you mentioning signing.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I don't know.

> > > Re: Teaching colors questions.

> > >

> > >

> > > This is just my opinion,but I am entiteled to it. I know ABA

> > works for some

> > > children but its techniques seem so mean. There doesnt seem

to

> be

> > any

> > > personal intrest in the fact that the child DOES have

feelings

> > and I

> > > personally wouldnt want someone trying to bribe me with an

M & M.

> I

> > had no

> > > desire to to ABA with Abby after I read maurice's

> book,

> > if anything

> > > it turned me off of it even more. All the teaching I did with

> > Abby was done

> > > with hugs and kisses, not full of No-No or with M & M's. I know

> > that many

> > > people love ABA and to each their own and thats fine, you do

> what

> > you feel is

> > > right for your child. But to me it is almost like training a

> dog

> > and my

> > > daughter is no animal.

> > >

> > > Pennie

> > > Abby's Mom

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

FYI: You are going to see sensory issues decrease with dietary

changes. You have seen success with the removal of milk, and Sky

will continue to improve as the proteins/peptides leave her body

(they say dairy proteins take 3 months, gluten can take 9-12

months).

But in the end, my advice is to follow your gut. God gave you a gut

instinct for a reason. Listen to it.

> > > I just came from a conference with a Speech Language Professor

> > talking about Communication Options for Persons with ASD.

> > >

> > > He spoke of the many approaches that educators and parents

used.

> > He wasn't pro or con against anything, and he doesn't have any

> > children, but what he said about ABA struck me. What he said was

> > when parents make demands for 40-50 hours of ABA a week, and

> > said " when does the child have time to be a child " . Such

intensive

> > training takes some of their childhood away, and that smaller

> > increments would be just as effective. I've never done it at

home

> so

> > I'm not critizing anyone.

> > >

> > > Do you parents who do ABA feel like their childs childhood is

> taken

> > away? (I mean other than autism)

> > >

> > > PECS was cheaper and anyone could do, and signing which of

course

> > you had to learn the signs, many times encouraged eventual

speech.

> I

> > recall reading some of you mentioning signing.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I don't know.

> > > Re: Teaching colors questions.

> > >

> > >

> > > This is just my opinion,but I am entiteled to it. I know ABA

> > works for some

> > > children but its techniques seem so mean. There doesnt seem

to

> be

> > any

> > > personal intrest in the fact that the child DOES have

feelings

> > and I

> > > personally wouldnt want someone trying to bribe me with an

M & M.

> I

> > had no

> > > desire to to ABA with Abby after I read maurice's

> book,

> > if anything

> > > it turned me off of it even more. All the teaching I did with

> > Abby was done

> > > with hugs and kisses, not full of No-No or with M & M's. I know

> > that many

> > > people love ABA and to each their own and thats fine, you do

> what

> > you feel is

> > > right for your child. But to me it is almost like training a

> dog

> > and my

> > > daughter is no animal.

> > >

> > > Pennie

> > > Abby's Mom

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

FYI: You are going to see sensory issues decrease with dietary

changes. You have seen success with the removal of milk, and Sky

will continue to improve as the proteins/peptides leave her body

(they say dairy proteins take 3 months, gluten can take 9-12

months).

But in the end, my advice is to follow your gut. God gave you a gut

instinct for a reason. Listen to it.

> > > I just came from a conference with a Speech Language Professor

> > talking about Communication Options for Persons with ASD.

> > >

> > > He spoke of the many approaches that educators and parents

used.

> > He wasn't pro or con against anything, and he doesn't have any

> > children, but what he said about ABA struck me. What he said was

> > when parents make demands for 40-50 hours of ABA a week, and

> > said " when does the child have time to be a child " . Such

intensive

> > training takes some of their childhood away, and that smaller

> > increments would be just as effective. I've never done it at

home

> so

> > I'm not critizing anyone.

> > >

> > > Do you parents who do ABA feel like their childs childhood is

> taken

> > away? (I mean other than autism)

> > >

> > > PECS was cheaper and anyone could do, and signing which of

course

> > you had to learn the signs, many times encouraged eventual

speech.

> I

> > recall reading some of you mentioning signing.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I don't know.

> > > Re: Teaching colors questions.

> > >

> > >

> > > This is just my opinion,but I am entiteled to it. I know ABA

> > works for some

> > > children but its techniques seem so mean. There doesnt seem

to

> be

> > any

> > > personal intrest in the fact that the child DOES have

feelings

> > and I

> > > personally wouldnt want someone trying to bribe me with an

M & M.

> I

> > had no

> > > desire to to ABA with Abby after I read maurice's

> book,

> > if anything

> > > it turned me off of it even more. All the teaching I did with

> > Abby was done

> > > with hugs and kisses, not full of No-No or with M & M's. I know

> > that many

> > > people love ABA and to each their own and thats fine, you do

> what

> > you feel is

> > > right for your child. But to me it is almost like training a

> dog

> > and my

> > > daughter is no animal.

> > >

> > > Pennie

> > > Abby's Mom

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Janna, our S.T. was going to start Pecs a little over a month ago,

but after eliminating dairy Sky seemed to take off. Although she

only has about 10 or 11 words she was at 3 or 4. When she was

diagnosed about a month & a half ago they scored her receptive

language lower than her expressive. That has really turned around

since. I would say most of the time now she understands what I'm

saying & is starting to follow through on more commands. We've been

doing sign language since she started S.T. back in Dec. She has 3

signs down that she uses all the time along with saying the word. I

think she would benefit from ABA, but I would have to find someone

who really understood her sensory issues first.

Wendie

> > Penny, that is my biggest reason for holding off on ABA. To quote

> > one of Sky's O.T.'s, " her sensories are a mess! " I'm afraid they

> > won't consider how hard some things are for her because of her

> > sensory issues. Sky hates for someone to hold her hand. The only

> > time she reaches out to hold hands is while playing Ring Around

The

> > Rosey. Just this weekend we were shopping & I told her she had to

> > hold my hand. Of course she tried to jerk away & started to

whine.

> > I kept a firm grip on her hand & I told her I knew this was very

hard

> > for her, but we needed to hold hands so she would stay safe. I'm

not

> > sure if she understood, but she let me keep holding her hand &

> > stopped whining. She still tugged & tried to break free, but at

> > least we avoided a melt down. I noticed a couple looking at me

like

> > I had lost my mind while I was saying these things to Sky, but oh

> > well. I guess I need to get used to that.

>

> Sounds like she understood. That's a great thing - means her

receptive

> language is okay.

>

> If you don't want to do ABA, you might look into PECS or sign as a

> communication method - as it sounds like you already have an OT

dealing with

> sensory issues.

>

> I think communication and sensory problems should be the primary

concern of

> all autism treatment programs. Unfortunately, many ABA providers

don't know

> or don't care to know about either.

>

> -Janna

>

> ABA Therapist, North Vancouver, BC, Canada

> BMus, BAPsych

>

>

**********************************************************************

******

> *****************

> " Home is not a place. It is wherever your passion takes you. " -

President

> Sheridan, Babylon 5 (Objects At Rest, Production #522)

> " Deep calls to deep in the roar of Your waterfall; all of your

waves and

> breakers have swept over me. " - Psalm 42:7

> " Rolling river God, little stones are smooth, only once the water

passes

> through... " - Nichole Nordeman, " river god " (wide eyed, 1998)

> " Nobody else is stronger than I am, today I moved a mountain! I'd

like to

> be your hero, I am a mighty little man! " - Steve Burns, " Mighty

Little Man "

> (Songs For Dustmites, unreleased)

> http://crosswinds.net/~jlhasd

>

**********************************************************************

******

> *****************

[Guest guest]

Janna, our S.T. was going to start Pecs a little over a month ago,

but after eliminating dairy Sky seemed to take off. Although she

only has about 10 or 11 words she was at 3 or 4. When she was

diagnosed about a month & a half ago they scored her receptive

language lower than her expressive. That has really turned around

since. I would say most of the time now she understands what I'm

saying & is starting to follow through on more commands. We've been

doing sign language since she started S.T. back in Dec. She has 3

signs down that she uses all the time along with saying the word. I

think she would benefit from ABA, but I would have to find someone

who really understood her sensory issues first.

Wendie

> > Penny, that is my biggest reason for holding off on ABA. To quote

> > one of Sky's O.T.'s, " her sensories are a mess! " I'm afraid they

> > won't consider how hard some things are for her because of her

> > sensory issues. Sky hates for someone to hold her hand. The only

> > time she reaches out to hold hands is while playing Ring Around

The

> > Rosey. Just this weekend we were shopping & I told her she had to

> > hold my hand. Of course she tried to jerk away & started to

whine.

> > I kept a firm grip on her hand & I told her I knew this was very

hard

> > for her, but we needed to hold hands so she would stay safe. I'm

not

> > sure if she understood, but she let me keep holding her hand &

> > stopped whining. She still tugged & tried to break free, but at

> > least we avoided a melt down. I noticed a couple looking at me

like

> > I had lost my mind while I was saying these things to Sky, but oh

> > well. I guess I need to get used to that.

>

> Sounds like she understood. That's a great thing - means her

receptive

> language is okay.

>

> If you don't want to do ABA, you might look into PECS or sign as a

> communication method - as it sounds like you already have an OT

dealing with

> sensory issues.

>

> I think communication and sensory problems should be the primary

concern of

> all autism treatment programs. Unfortunately, many ABA providers

don't know

> or don't care to know about either.

>

> -Janna

>

> ABA Therapist, North Vancouver, BC, Canada

> BMus, BAPsych

>

>

**********************************************************************

******

> *****************

> " Home is not a place. It is wherever your passion takes you. " -

President

> Sheridan, Babylon 5 (Objects At Rest, Production #522)

> " Deep calls to deep in the roar of Your waterfall; all of your

waves and

> breakers have swept over me. " - Psalm 42:7

> " Rolling river God, little stones are smooth, only once the water

passes

> through... " - Nichole Nordeman, " river god " (wide eyed, 1998)

> " Nobody else is stronger than I am, today I moved a mountain! I'd

like to

> be your hero, I am a mighty little man! " - Steve Burns, " Mighty

Little Man "

> (Songs For Dustmites, unreleased)

> http://crosswinds.net/~jlhasd

>

**********************************************************************

******

> *****************