Guest guest Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 But how do you decide which ones are ok to try to fix/help? Why is cognition a sacred cow that we are not supposed to try to improve? That is all I am trying to point out. Personally, I do not agree with giving kids Prozac until the clinical trials have been completed..but I am keeping an open mind towards using them in the future, if the clinical trials show that they are safe to use. kathyR From: DownSyndromeInfoExchange [mailto:DownSyndromeInfoExchange ] On Behalf Of Csvillars@... Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 9:52 PM To: DownSyndromeInfoExchange Subject: Re: [DownSyndromeInfoExchange] Re: Fw: DS Clinical Trials- From Dr Craig Garner There is a big difference between fixing and helping. I had a friend who decided her child needed to be fixed and she almost killed him with all her experimentations with on supplement after another. See, if one doesn't go with the in crowd look how they jump out and start with the old cliches that if it's ok to fix one thing why not the other. I don't see where anyone said it was ok or not ok we just said we feel differently. Carol In a message dated 7/7/2008 9:48:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Kathy_R@... writes: I don’t understand why it is ok to *fix* a child’s heart defect, treat hypothyroidism,leukemia,, etc, yet we balk at treatments to improve cognition. What is sacred about cognition that it is *bad* to do what you can to improve it if possible? Why do therapy at all if we “accept our kids as they are� Isn’t therapy ‘fixing’ kids? Isn’t school?? If a person’s IQ could be improved a few points, that might be the difference between them having to live in a group home/assisted care and being able to live independently. KathyR From: DownSyndromeInfoExchange [mailto:DownSyndromeInfoExchange ] On Behalf Of Csvillars@... Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 9:20 PM To: DownSyndromeInfoExchange Subject: Re: [DownSyndromeInfoExchange] Re: Fw: DS Clinical Trials- From Dr Craig Garner You most certainly have the right to think what you please but to say many parents are apathetic regarding their children IS just an opinion. To me it bothers me when people speak of someone with DS as having a disease that needs to be cured. Trisha is not a guinea pig or an experiment and I choose not to treat her as such. I do not fill her up with the latest craze of supplements or send her to therapy to the point that she no longer has a life, It's not only about accepting her the way she is but it's also about learning from her as well because of the way she is. There is much we could learn from our children if only we took the time instead of spending most of our time trying to fix them. Did anyone ever stop to think maybe our children are here because they are here to teach us the basic of life like, slow down, accept people as they are not as we would want them to be or even maybe to help us learn how to deal with old age? Do I want to give Trisha opportunities to learn and to grow, of course I do but what I do not want to do is change who she is. Trisha is a gift from God just like her brother was a gift from God why should one try to perfect something that just maybe is already perfect but because we think if someone is different they need to be fixed just maybe it's us who needs to be fixed. It's not our children who need the fixing it's the rest of us because it's the so called normal people who will abuse them, take advantage of them now please explain why I would want my child to be normal again? I'd much rather be spending my time finding supplements for the " normal people " that will help them to be accepting, kind, compassionate, non-abusive etc. That's where the work is really needed. With all the high blood pressure, heart disease, cancers obesity and so forth it seems to me we ought to work on ourselves before trying to fix someone else. I wonder what goes on in the heads of our kids and I wonder if they think we can't love them as they are because we are always trying to fix them and make them what we deem better but just maybe they are ok and happy with who they are and how they are. People used to say the children with DS were always happy but now that isn't true any more so I have to wonder were they always happy or at least happier before we decided they needed fixing? Have you ever asked yourself what is it that they are smiling at when we see nothing that we think would make them smile? Teaching them, making sure they are healthy is a parent's job just like it is for any of our children regardless of their abilities but when we as parents get so gungho over it that they no longer have lives beyond their disabilities all in the name of helping them I have to wonder why we are so fired up crazy to fix something when we ourselves are probably more damaged and in need of fixing ourselves. This of course is only my opinion and please don't say I am apathetic or have my head in the ground because like everyone else I am entitled to my opinion and to raise my child as best as I can just like I did for my son who is supposedly " typical " . I want her to have a good life just like I want for my son but that doesn't mean a good life can only be obtained if she is " normal " . We all have a purpose in life just because we don't always know what that purpose is for each of us doesn't mean that only those who are " normal " have a purpose. Sometimes I think Trisha's purpose is to drive me crazy and then I remember oh no that was her brother's job and then I look at her and know that whatever her purpose is in life she will actually do better reaching it than I will because she still has the ability to think with an open mind and not be judgmental or cynical as some of us have become. She takes her time which drives me crazy but would probably help lower my blood pressure if I just followed her lead. :-) Do not ever think I am not passionate about my child because I am but I just think sometimes when we fix things now we don't know what we might have broken for the future. It's just like with the vaccines, what at one time was thought to be a fix is now today considered a huge mistake and what we do today as a fix people 10-20 or more years from now might just think how barbaric we are. We don't know what drugs can do to our bodies as we age and by the time our kids are our age we won't be there to say I'm sorry if our fixes actually broke something else. JMHO. Carol Trishasmom In a message dated 7/7/2008 8:32:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mscheitlin@... writes: It seems to me that many parents with children with DS are rather apathetic about their child's condition Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 But how do you decide which ones are ok to try to fix/help? Why is cognition a sacred cow that we are not supposed to try to improve? That is all I am trying to point out. Personally, I do not agree with giving kids Prozac until the clinical trials have been completed..but I am keeping an open mind towards using them in the future, if the clinical trials show that they are safe to use. kathyR From: DownSyndromeInfoExchange [mailto:DownSyndromeInfoExchange ] On Behalf Of Csvillars@... Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 9:52 PM To: DownSyndromeInfoExchange Subject: Re: [DownSyndromeInfoExchange] Re: Fw: DS Clinical Trials- From Dr Craig Garner There is a big difference between fixing and helping. I had a friend who decided her child needed to be fixed and she almost killed him with all her experimentations with on supplement after another. See, if one doesn't go with the in crowd look how they jump out and start with the old cliches that if it's ok to fix one thing why not the other. I don't see where anyone said it was ok or not ok we just said we feel differently. Carol In a message dated 7/7/2008 9:48:33 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Kathy_R@... writes: I don’t understand why it is ok to *fix* a child’s heart defect, treat hypothyroidism,leukemia,, etc, yet we balk at treatments to improve cognition. What is sacred about cognition that it is *bad* to do what you can to improve it if possible? Why do therapy at all if we “accept our kids as they are� Isn’t therapy ‘fixing’ kids? Isn’t school?? If a person’s IQ could be improved a few points, that might be the difference between them having to live in a group home/assisted care and being able to live independently. KathyR From: DownSyndromeInfoExchange [mailto:DownSyndromeInfoExchange ] On Behalf Of Csvillars@... Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 9:20 PM To: DownSyndromeInfoExchange Subject: Re: [DownSyndromeInfoExchange] Re: Fw: DS Clinical Trials- From Dr Craig Garner You most certainly have the right to think what you please but to say many parents are apathetic regarding their children IS just an opinion. To me it bothers me when people speak of someone with DS as having a disease that needs to be cured. Trisha is not a guinea pig or an experiment and I choose not to treat her as such. I do not fill her up with the latest craze of supplements or send her to therapy to the point that she no longer has a life, It's not only about accepting her the way she is but it's also about learning from her as well because of the way she is. There is much we could learn from our children if only we took the time instead of spending most of our time trying to fix them. Did anyone ever stop to think maybe our children are here because they are here to teach us the basic of life like, slow down, accept people as they are not as we would want them to be or even maybe to help us learn how to deal with old age? Do I want to give Trisha opportunities to learn and to grow, of course I do but what I do not want to do is change who she is. Trisha is a gift from God just like her brother was a gift from God why should one try to perfect something that just maybe is already perfect but because we think if someone is different they need to be fixed just maybe it's us who needs to be fixed. It's not our children who need the fixing it's the rest of us because it's the so called normal people who will abuse them, take advantage of them now please explain why I would want my child to be normal again? I'd much rather be spending my time finding supplements for the " normal people " that will help them to be accepting, kind, compassionate, non-abusive etc. That's where the work is really needed. With all the high blood pressure, heart disease, cancers obesity and so forth it seems to me we ought to work on ourselves before trying to fix someone else. I wonder what goes on in the heads of our kids and I wonder if they think we can't love them as they are because we are always trying to fix them and make them what we deem better but just maybe they are ok and happy with who they are and how they are. People used to say the children with DS were always happy but now that isn't true any more so I have to wonder were they always happy or at least happier before we decided they needed fixing? Have you ever asked yourself what is it that they are smiling at when we see nothing that we think would make them smile? Teaching them, making sure they are healthy is a parent's job just like it is for any of our children regardless of their abilities but when we as parents get so gungho over it that they no longer have lives beyond their disabilities all in the name of helping them I have to wonder why we are so fired up crazy to fix something when we ourselves are probably more damaged and in need of fixing ourselves. This of course is only my opinion and please don't say I am apathetic or have my head in the ground because like everyone else I am entitled to my opinion and to raise my child as best as I can just like I did for my son who is supposedly " typical " . I want her to have a good life just like I want for my son but that doesn't mean a good life can only be obtained if she is " normal " . We all have a purpose in life just because we don't always know what that purpose is for each of us doesn't mean that only those who are " normal " have a purpose. Sometimes I think Trisha's purpose is to drive me crazy and then I remember oh no that was her brother's job and then I look at her and know that whatever her purpose is in life she will actually do better reaching it than I will because she still has the ability to think with an open mind and not be judgmental or cynical as some of us have become. She takes her time which drives me crazy but would probably help lower my blood pressure if I just followed her lead. :-) Do not ever think I am not passionate about my child because I am but I just think sometimes when we fix things now we don't know what we might have broken for the future. It's just like with the vaccines, what at one time was thought to be a fix is now today considered a huge mistake and what we do today as a fix people 10-20 or more years from now might just think how barbaric we are. We don't know what drugs can do to our bodies as we age and by the time our kids are our age we won't be there to say I'm sorry if our fixes actually broke something else. JMHO. Carol Trishasmom In a message dated 7/7/2008 8:32:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mscheitlin@... writes: It seems to me that many parents with children with DS are rather apathetic about their child's condition Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 - Whatever drug is given for cognition would probably have to be taken for the rest of the person’s life,anyway,, right? Or am I just not understanding it? From: DownSyndromeInfoExchange [mailto:DownSyndromeInfoExchange ] On Behalf Of Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 9:49 PM To: DownSyndromeInfoExchange Subject: Re: [DownSyndromeInfoExchange] Re: Fw: DS Clinical Trials- From Dr Craig Garner Marsha, I do research medicines. As a RN, I am constantly getting information about new drugs coming out. I do have a problem with most medicines especially Prozac. Prozac is a psych med that can become addictive to which is is near impossible for that individual taking it to go off of it. I know this because of my sister in law. She has been on it for years and can not stop taking it. Im and all for new research that improves my son's life but am just skeptical about them. Carol, I certainly understand your feelings - but I still maintain that if a safe and effective treatment can be provided for these children, then it ought to be done. Perhaps not for your daughter, but for those who would choose such a treatment. I also understand your concern about the drugs, I think that we're all concerned - but we need to move ahead. It seems to me that the general public with normal children are more sympathetic and enthusiastic about change for these children than many parents of children with DS. I'm sorry, I just don't understand what motivates them. I've always looked for answers and I'm not always the most balanced in that aspect, but I just don't understand parents who won't even try Ginkgo Biloba. They're not motivated to even do that much or research it. Also, remember that people with DS are susceptable to AD at an early age. Marsha > > You most certainly have the right to think what you please but to say many > parents are apathetic regarding their children IS just an opinion. To me it > bothers me when people speak of someone with DS as having a disease that needs > to be cured. Trisha is not a guinea pig or an experiment and I choose not > to treat her as such. I do not fill her up with the latest craze of > supplements or send her to therapy to the point that she no longer has a life, It's > not only about accepting her the way she is but it's also about learning from > her as well because of the way she is. There is much we could learn from our > children if only we took the time instead of spending most of our time trying > to fix them. Did anyone ever stop to think maybe our children are here > because they are here to teach us the basic of life like, slow down, accept > people as they are not as we would want them to be or even maybe to help us learn > how to deal with old age? Do I want to give Trisha opportunities to learn > and to grow, of course I do but what I do not want to do is change who she is. > Trisha is a gift from God just like her brother was a gift from God why > should one try to perfect something that just maybe is already perfect but > because we think if someone is different they need to be fixed just maybe it's us > who needs to be fixed. It's not our children who need the fixing it's the > rest of us because it's the so called normal people who will abuse them, take > advantage of them now please explain why I would want my child to be normal > again? I'd much rather be spending my time finding supplements for the " normal > people " that will help them to be accepting, kind, compassionate, non-abusive > etc. That's where the work is really needed. With all the high blood > pressure, heart disease, cancers obesity and so forth it seems to me we ought to > work on ourselves before trying to fix someone else. I wonder what goes on > in the heads of our kids and I wonder if they think we can't love them as they > are because we are always trying to fix them and make them what we deem > better but just maybe they are ok and happy with who they are and how they are. > People used to say the children with DS were always happy but now that isn't > true any more so I have to wonder were they always happy or at least happier > before we decided they needed fixing? Have you ever asked yourself what is > it that they are smiling at when we see nothing that we think would make them > smile? Teaching them, making sure they are healthy is a parent's job just > like it is for any of our children regardless of their abilities but when we > as parents get so gungho over it that they no longer have lives beyond their > disabilities all in the name of helping them I have to wonder why we are so > fired up crazy to fix something when we ourselves are probably more damaged and > in need of fixing ourselves. This of course is only my opinion and please > don't say I am apathetic or have my head in the ground because like everyone > else I am entitled to my opinion and to raise my child as best as I can just > like I did for my son who is supposedly " typical " . I want her to have a good > life just like I want for my son but that doesn't mean a good life can only > be obtained if she is " normal " . We all have a purpose in life just because we > don't always know what that purpose is for each of us doesn't mean that only > those who are " normal " have a purpose. Sometimes I think Trisha's purpose > is to drive me crazy and then I remember oh no that was her brother's job and > then I look at her and know that whatever her purpose is in life she will > actually do better reaching it than I will because she still has the ability to > think with an open mind and not be judgmental or cynical as some of us have > become. She takes her time which drives me crazy but would probably help > lower my blood pressure if I just followed her lead. :-) > > Do not ever think I am not passionate about my child because I am but I just > think sometimes when we fix things now we don't know what we might have > broken for the future. It's just like with the vaccines, what at one time was > thought to be a fix is now today considered a huge mistake and what we do today > as a fix people 10-20 or more years from now might just think how barbaric > we are. We don't know what drugs can do to our bodies as we age and by the > time our kids are our age we won't be there to say I'm sorry if our fixes > actually broke something else. JMHO. > > Carol > Trishasmom > > > In a message dated 7/7/2008 8:32:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > mscheitlin@... writes: > > It seems to me that many parents with children with DS are rather > apathetic about their child's condition > > > > > **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for > fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 - Whatever drug is given for cognition would probably have to be taken for the rest of the person’s life,anyway,, right? Or am I just not understanding it? From: DownSyndromeInfoExchange [mailto:DownSyndromeInfoExchange ] On Behalf Of Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 9:49 PM To: DownSyndromeInfoExchange Subject: Re: [DownSyndromeInfoExchange] Re: Fw: DS Clinical Trials- From Dr Craig Garner Marsha, I do research medicines. As a RN, I am constantly getting information about new drugs coming out. I do have a problem with most medicines especially Prozac. Prozac is a psych med that can become addictive to which is is near impossible for that individual taking it to go off of it. I know this because of my sister in law. She has been on it for years and can not stop taking it. Im and all for new research that improves my son's life but am just skeptical about them. Carol, I certainly understand your feelings - but I still maintain that if a safe and effective treatment can be provided for these children, then it ought to be done. Perhaps not for your daughter, but for those who would choose such a treatment. I also understand your concern about the drugs, I think that we're all concerned - but we need to move ahead. It seems to me that the general public with normal children are more sympathetic and enthusiastic about change for these children than many parents of children with DS. I'm sorry, I just don't understand what motivates them. I've always looked for answers and I'm not always the most balanced in that aspect, but I just don't understand parents who won't even try Ginkgo Biloba. They're not motivated to even do that much or research it. Also, remember that people with DS are susceptable to AD at an early age. Marsha > > You most certainly have the right to think what you please but to say many > parents are apathetic regarding their children IS just an opinion. To me it > bothers me when people speak of someone with DS as having a disease that needs > to be cured. Trisha is not a guinea pig or an experiment and I choose not > to treat her as such. I do not fill her up with the latest craze of > supplements or send her to therapy to the point that she no longer has a life, It's > not only about accepting her the way she is but it's also about learning from > her as well because of the way she is. There is much we could learn from our > children if only we took the time instead of spending most of our time trying > to fix them. Did anyone ever stop to think maybe our children are here > because they are here to teach us the basic of life like, slow down, accept > people as they are not as we would want them to be or even maybe to help us learn > how to deal with old age? Do I want to give Trisha opportunities to learn > and to grow, of course I do but what I do not want to do is change who she is. > Trisha is a gift from God just like her brother was a gift from God why > should one try to perfect something that just maybe is already perfect but > because we think if someone is different they need to be fixed just maybe it's us > who needs to be fixed. It's not our children who need the fixing it's the > rest of us because it's the so called normal people who will abuse them, take > advantage of them now please explain why I would want my child to be normal > again? I'd much rather be spending my time finding supplements for the " normal > people " that will help them to be accepting, kind, compassionate, non-abusive > etc. That's where the work is really needed. With all the high blood > pressure, heart disease, cancers obesity and so forth it seems to me we ought to > work on ourselves before trying to fix someone else. I wonder what goes on > in the heads of our kids and I wonder if they think we can't love them as they > are because we are always trying to fix them and make them what we deem > better but just maybe they are ok and happy with who they are and how they are. > People used to say the children with DS were always happy but now that isn't > true any more so I have to wonder were they always happy or at least happier > before we decided they needed fixing? Have you ever asked yourself what is > it that they are smiling at when we see nothing that we think would make them > smile? Teaching them, making sure they are healthy is a parent's job just > like it is for any of our children regardless of their abilities but when we > as parents get so gungho over it that they no longer have lives beyond their > disabilities all in the name of helping them I have to wonder why we are so > fired up crazy to fix something when we ourselves are probably more damaged and > in need of fixing ourselves. This of course is only my opinion and please > don't say I am apathetic or have my head in the ground because like everyone > else I am entitled to my opinion and to raise my child as best as I can just > like I did for my son who is supposedly " typical " . I want her to have a good > life just like I want for my son but that doesn't mean a good life can only > be obtained if she is " normal " . We all have a purpose in life just because we > don't always know what that purpose is for each of us doesn't mean that only > those who are " normal " have a purpose. Sometimes I think Trisha's purpose > is to drive me crazy and then I remember oh no that was her brother's job and > then I look at her and know that whatever her purpose is in life she will > actually do better reaching it than I will because she still has the ability to > think with an open mind and not be judgmental or cynical as some of us have > become. She takes her time which drives me crazy but would probably help > lower my blood pressure if I just followed her lead. :-) > > Do not ever think I am not passionate about my child because I am but I just > think sometimes when we fix things now we don't know what we might have > broken for the future. It's just like with the vaccines, what at one time was > thought to be a fix is now today considered a huge mistake and what we do today > as a fix people 10-20 or more years from now might just think how barbaric > we are. We don't know what drugs can do to our bodies as we age and by the > time our kids are our age we won't be there to say I'm sorry if our fixes > actually broke something else. JMHO. > > Carol > Trishasmom > > > In a message dated 7/7/2008 8:32:46 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > mscheitlin@... writes: > > It seems to me that many parents with children with DS are rather > apathetic about their child's condition > > > > > **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for > fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 I like a good debate, and of course I agree that we all need to be polite. If I crossed that line, it certainly wasn’t intentional, but I apologize if anyone thought I was rude in my remarks. KathyR From: DownSyndromeInfoExchange [mailto:DownSyndromeInfoExchange ] On Behalf Of iammamapie Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 7:46 AM To: DownSyndromeInfoExchange Subject: Re: [DownSyndromeInfoExchange] Re: Fw: DS Clinical Trials- From Dr Craig Garner I agree, That is what I was trying to say Last week. Disagree but do it in a respectful way. I would think the list owners would know that and ask that everyone try and respect what others have to say and disagree in a nice way with out lashing out at each other. Carol From: Caroline Skalsky Subject: Re: [DownSyndromeInfoExchange] Re: Fw: DS Clinical Trials- From Dr Craig Garner To: DownSyndromeInfoExchange Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 11:18 PM Hey everyone, I think it is getting a little mean in this latest exchange.... ..sorry I know I am not the moderator, but I just read all these emails at once and yikes (!!) I could feel the tension. Of course we are all doing what *we* think is best for our children. Some of us may give supplements others not, but at a minimum we need to have respect for their opinions. I do not think any of us plans to run out and get the latest *craze* drug to give to our children without doing research. I do not think you will find one parent on this list who would say to another from the list that they don't care about their child. We all care or we would not be on this list in the first place seeking advice, support, help and encouragement for our children. What we really need to do is be supportive of one another whatever path we choose. " nough said.... Caroline > . > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 I do also and I apologize for the use of the word " apathy " . Many parents that I know have been very informed with fundraising for the Buddy Walk and social groups. Many are much more strong in advocacy when it comes to IEP's, etc. My personal interest and focus has always been on how I can help my child, not on how I can convince the school system and others to value him. For years, I have researched this or that trying to find ways to address the cognitive issues. I don't understand the lack of interest in doing so. Different strokes for different folks. Some of these parents have strengths that I don't have. It seems that parents with DS can be very suspicious of each other and scared to discuss what we are trying with our kids. I often feel more freedom in discussing these things with others than with parents of children with DS. It almost seems " taboo " to discuss it, swept under the rug. It's probably just a lack of interest.. In my experience, parents of children with Autism are much more aggressive in seeking treatment. One gentleman told me that he spent $15,000 last summer for his son and that he would do anything for him. Maybe I have just ran into the right people, but I have encountered this type of attitude various times. Again, this is my opinion. Marsha > > > Subject: Re: [DownSyndromeInfoExchange] Re: Fw: DS Clinical Trials- From Dr > Craig Garner > To: DownSyndromeInfoExchange > Date: Monday, July 7, 2008, 11:18 PM > > Hey everyone, I think it is getting a little mean in this latest > exchange.... ..sorry I know I am not the moderator, but I just read all > these emails at once and yikes (!!) I could feel the tension. > > Of course we are all doing what *we* think is best for our children. > Some of us may give supplements others not, but at a minimum we need to > have respect for their opinions. I do not think any of us plans to run > out and get the latest *craze* drug to give to our children without > doing research. I do not think you will find one parent on this list who > would say to another from the list that they don't care about their > child. We all care or we would not be on this list in the first place > seeking advice, support, help and encouragement for our children. > > What we really need to do is be supportive of one another whatever path > we choose. > > " nough said.... > > Caroline > > > . > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.