Re: working toward forgiveness

[Guest guest]

,

This is a popular topic! Here's my two cents. I don't exactly know

what forgiveness is. I, too, am leery of the concept. Nada wants

nothing more than an ultimate endorsement of her reality--some

ultimate admission by me (and the entire family), that she was a

good mother--or at least a REAL one, who meant well, and that I was

too sensitive, and that if I hurt for any reason it was not the

cause of anything SHE ever did, but my own failings. Sometimes she

seems to have moments of lucidity, but ultimately every second she

has me on her radar, it is all about trying to force everyone's

reality into that picture, especially mine. To the extent that

forgiveness means accepting HER reality instead of mine, it

invalidates my entire existence, and of course I refuse to do that.

I want to be happy. I deserve to be alive, and to feel normal--not

disgusting, not the opposite of disgusting. Just, normal.

There is also a lot of talk out there about being grateful for what

you DID have. For example, my nada fed and clothed me, paid for my

school, drove me to after school activities. Etc. To this day I

feel like a BAD child for not being grateful for these things. But

why should I be, when I know in my heart that every second she was

with me, her strongest impulse was to make me miserable as

possible? Because it really, really WAS. As far as my religion

goes, it requires me to love all people as equals--none less or more

than others. I love her with the requisite love I feel is due to

any other human. But I have no AFFECTION for her. Would

forgiveness mean developing affection for the person who has caused

more harm than good in one's life, and STILL wants to do so more

than anything? I feel constant guilt that I have no affection for

my nada. She knows I don't, and it brings up her abandonment issues

even more. Most of us do so much more for our nadas than we

actually feel inclined to do, because we feel we are SUPPOSED to

care. And society of course imparts strong duties on children.

That being said, I think it IS important to forgive, and to love. I

think the first thing is to try and resolve the anger you are

feeling. Anger must be resolved, and it you don't take control, it

will find a way to resolve itself--which may affect your health, or

the relationships you value. I also believe that it's not right or

healthy to harbor negative thoughts towards anyone, nada or no. She

chose to engage in destructive behaviour. She now has to live with

the consequences. (She was not a real mother; no she has no real

daughter). But judging her as 'bad' or 'evil', etc., it doesn't get

you anywhere, and personally I think it's wrong. I would say

forgiveness would mean looking at the situation overall, deciding

what you honestly think is most right, and doing that. Forgiveness

might also mean admitting to yourself there might be a real person

under the bpd, and that person would not choose to act as she did if

she understood what she was doing.

I have no conclusions. Hope this helps a bit though.

Charlie

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone,

I think it comes to a point where a person has to forgive, or

let something go, for their own health. Up to that time, it's

probably necessary to feel and express anger. I know I have a lot

stored up and I can't examine it all at once, but I have to let it

get exposed to the light before I can forgive, because then if I

didn't it would just fester, in spite of my good intentions.

I know that my mother has deliberately hurt me and this is

something I'm working through right now. Jealousy is in her and a

desire to feel better about herself by cutting me down. On purpose.

So, I don't feel I can excuse all her actions because of BPD. Some

of them I can, some not. Because even people who don't have BPD

traits can be jealous and malicious. They just aren't very nice

people.

Lark

> ,

>

> This is a popular topic! Here's my two cents. I don't exactly

know

> what forgiveness is. I, too, am leery of the concept. Nada wants

> nothing more than an ultimate endorsement of her reality--some

> ultimate admission by me (and the entire family), that she was a

> good mother--or at least a REAL one, who meant well, and that I was

> too sensitive, and that if I hurt for any reason it was not the

> cause of anything SHE ever did, but my own failings. Sometimes she

> seems to have moments of lucidity, but ultimately every second she

> has me on her radar, it is all about trying to force everyone's

> reality into that picture, especially mine. To the extent that

> forgiveness means accepting HER reality instead of mine, it

> invalidates my entire existence, and of course I refuse to do

that.

> I want to be happy. I deserve to be alive, and to feel normal--not

> disgusting, not the opposite of disgusting. Just, normal.

>

> There is also a lot of talk out there about being grateful for what

> you DID have. For example, my nada fed and clothed me, paid for my

> school, drove me to after school activities. Etc. To this day I

> feel like a BAD child for not being grateful for these things. But

> why should I be, when I know in my heart that every second she was

> with me, her strongest impulse was to make me miserable as

> possible? Because it really, really WAS. As far as my religion

> goes, it requires me to love all people as equals--none less or

more

> than others. I love her with the requisite love I feel is due to

> any other human. But I have no AFFECTION for her. Would

> forgiveness mean developing affection for the person who has caused

> more harm than good in one's life, and STILL wants to do so more

> than anything? I feel constant guilt that I have no affection for

> my nada. She knows I don't, and it brings up her abandonment

issues

> even more. Most of us do so much more for our nadas than we

> actually feel inclined to do, because we feel we are SUPPOSED to

> care. And society of course imparts strong duties on children.

>

> That being said, I think it IS important to forgive, and to love.

I

> think the first thing is to try and resolve the anger you are

> feeling. Anger must be resolved, and it you don't take control, it

> will find a way to resolve itself--which may affect your health, or

> the relationships you value. I also believe that it's not right or

> healthy to harbor negative thoughts towards anyone, nada or no.

She

> chose to engage in destructive behaviour. She now has to live with

> the consequences. (She was not a real mother; no she has no real

> daughter). But judging her as 'bad' or 'evil', etc., it doesn't

get

> you anywhere, and personally I think it's wrong. I would say

> forgiveness would mean looking at the situation overall, deciding

> what you honestly think is most right, and doing that. Forgiveness

> might also mean admitting to yourself there might be a real person

> under the bpd, and that person would not choose to act as she did

if

> she understood what she was doing.

>

> I have no conclusions. Hope this helps a bit though.

>

> Charlie

[Guest guest]

I just read the part about forgiveness in " Women who run with

wolves " , where she talks about four stages of forgiveness. Reading

it put a bad taste in my mouth.

I have tried very hard to forgive my mother, my ex-boss, and others,

but it is a pretense. When I fool myself into thinking that I am

forgiving them I just become more bitter and more vulnerable to

further abuse.

I think forgiveness must come as a result of healing. I cannot make

it happen by trying to, and I am not ready for it.

One thing that leads me a little way along the path of forgiveness

to my mother is the realization that all the poison she dumped on me

was what she felt about herself. I can feel some compassion, but

not really forgiveness.

- Dan

[Guest guest]

Journeywork,

I really like this...

" They're not paying rent for space in my head, so they've gotta

go. " I am far from this place, but I am to get there!

I asked my therapist about mu intentions to work toward forgiveness,

and she does not feel I am ready to so as I have not fully felt the

emotional impact of BPD-- I am still one foot in the information

gathering stage, and one foot in the emotional stage. No feet are in

the healing stage.

Blessings,

[Guest guest]

Hi, I've been struggling with this one too. I have been doing a lot

of reading and thinking the last couple of months, and while I am

now at a point of being able to objectively look at nada as a

pathetic, empty person who was just trying to survive at my and my

sister's expense, I still am not sure about this forgiveness

business, what it really means, & whether I'm in the process of it.

I don't believe that it is that classic reconciliation where both

parties come together with some understanding of eachother's views.

I do believe as others have stated that it is simply letting go of

hurt, not holding a grudge against a person, whether they are aware

of it or not. I think I am at that point now, in that I have let go.

Do I at times feel sorrow or compassion for her? Yes. Does nada

still do things & tell lies that make me angry? Yes, but I see more

clearly now, rather than take it entirely personally & fly off the

handle like I used to. I am backing off now when she begins to do

the witch thing, and I am staying away from her when I can't cope

with her behavior--which is often. I have accepted that staying away

is not only for my benefit, but it keeps me from continuing to hurt

her right back (at least in her mind). I can only be kind to her by

staying away. I have accepted that I cannot change her AND that I

don't HAVE to change her. I'm not responsible for the cleanliness of

her soul, the correction of her bizarre beliefs, or her happiness;

I'm responsible for my own soul, beliefs, happiness. I've left her

to God, and I have let go. I don't expect to have any magical

reconciliation with nada. There is no one there to reconcile with.

She is a shell of what I once believed her to be, and I know that

all she is capable of is trying to convince me that my world is

false and hers is real. The only way I can " reconcile " with her, if

you even could call it that, is to let her believe that I agree with

her version of the truth. That would make her happy for a while.

That would also require for me to lie to her, and I have had quite

enough of lies.

Sandy

> I just read the part about forgiveness in " Women who run with

> wolves " , where she talks about four stages of forgiveness.

Reading

> it put a bad taste in my mouth.

>

> I have tried very hard to forgive my mother, my ex-boss, and

others,

> but it is a pretense. When I fool myself into thinking that I am

> forgiving them I just become more bitter and more vulnerable to

> further abuse.

>

> I think forgiveness must come as a result of healing. I cannot

make

> it happen by trying to, and I am not ready for it.

>

> One thing that leads me a little way along the path of forgiveness

> to my mother is the realization that all the poison she dumped on

me

> was what she felt about herself. I can feel some compassion, but

> not really forgiveness.

>

> - Dan

[Guest guest]

I am sorry but I still have to disagree with likening of BPD with cancer.

There is no choice in getting cancer ( we wont go into the whole debate about

smoking and ect, ect..) But there is CHOICE in the way we behave and choose

to conduct our lives.

BPD is not schizophrenia or even a chemical inbalance. It is a

PERSONALITY disorder. It is a deranged pattern of behaviors one CHOOSES to

indulge in

in order to fill some internal need of whatever kind.

To say that BPD are just " victims " of some evil twist of life that

they have no control of is wrong. In fact just yesterday I met a very nice

women who shared her story of having BPD and her struggles with finding the

right therapy to help her help herself and save the integrity of her

relationship

with her son. There are people out there that CHOOSE to recognize reality as

is truly is even though that flies in the face of the twisted ideals they

hold dear for self preservation.

Have we so much become a society of victimhood that it reduces

humanity to that level of a beast lacking in free will in all circumstances? I

think not.

It takes a tremendous strength and the will to bear much pain to accept

that you may be wrong in your actions and way of thinking and to say with

actually KNOWING you are wrong and only YOU are responsible for the CHOICES YOU

MAKE.

After being raised by a very BPD mother I myself have to relearn

EVERYTHING that has ever been taught to me about how to behave, how to think

,how to

treat people, and how to ACCEPT responsibilty for the actions I CHOOSE to

do. Though I do not have BPD I was in danger of developing a BPD because it was

all I have known. It takes so much will everyday to find the power and

patience to NOT at all be the monster my mother was.

It is choice. I could feel hurt about something my husband says or does

and I could reach for temporary sanctity is releasing my own pain as rage

and hostility , I could try to make the inferior and vunerable part of me feel

powerful by smashing the core of who he is down. I could rationalize why he

FORCED me to behave that way, because it is his fault for bringing these

feelings on and I cannot CHOOSE my behavior. I could even justify it withen the

prisms of my own mind .

OR I could CHOOSE to find other ways to deal with my pain and go to

a quiet place if I have too and even let it bring me to my knees in tears and

own those feelings. I can CHOOSE to swallow down my anger and not feel a

release of hurt or false sense of power by lashing out. Because no matter what

anyone else says or does even if they are in the wrong ONLY I can dictate what

I do.

BPD isnt a cancer of the soul. Nor is it a true mental illness that

is organic in the brain. It is a set of behaviors one uses as a defense

against the world and eventually even the reality of what they have become.

Behavior can change if one is willing to make the sacrifice of change and lay

waste to foolish prides, fantasy and unnecessary defenses in exchange for

different coping skills .

It is choice. Everyday, every decision we make is a personal choice.

Even behavior that hurts others to protect a fake sense of integrity.

[Guest guest]

I am sorry but I still have to disagree with likening of BPD with cancer.

There is no choice in getting cancer ( we wont go into the whole debate about

smoking and ect, ect..) But there is CHOICE in the way we behave and choose

to conduct our lives.

BPD is not schizophrenia or even a chemical inbalance. It is a

PERSONALITY disorder. It is a deranged pattern of behaviors one CHOOSES to

indulge in

in order to fill some internal need of whatever kind.

To say that BPD are just " victims " of some evil twist of life that

they have no control of is wrong. In fact just yesterday I met a very nice

women who shared her story of having BPD and her struggles with finding the

right therapy to help her help herself and save the integrity of her

relationship

with her son. There are people out there that CHOOSE to recognize reality as

is truly is even though that flies in the face of the twisted ideals they

hold dear for self preservation.

Have we so much become a society of victimhood that it reduces

humanity to that level of a beast lacking in free will in all circumstances? I

think not.

It takes a tremendous strength and the will to bear much pain to accept

that you may be wrong in your actions and way of thinking and to say with

actually KNOWING you are wrong and only YOU are responsible for the CHOICES YOU

MAKE.

After being raised by a very BPD mother I myself have to relearn

EVERYTHING that has ever been taught to me about how to behave, how to think

,how to

treat people, and how to ACCEPT responsibilty for the actions I CHOOSE to

do. Though I do not have BPD I was in danger of developing a BPD because it was

all I have known. It takes so much will everyday to find the power and

patience to NOT at all be the monster my mother was.

It is choice. I could feel hurt about something my husband says or does

and I could reach for temporary sanctity is releasing my own pain as rage

and hostility , I could try to make the inferior and vunerable part of me feel

powerful by smashing the core of who he is down. I could rationalize why he

FORCED me to behave that way, because it is his fault for bringing these

feelings on and I cannot CHOOSE my behavior. I could even justify it withen the

prisms of my own mind .

OR I could CHOOSE to find other ways to deal with my pain and go to

a quiet place if I have too and even let it bring me to my knees in tears and

own those feelings. I can CHOOSE to swallow down my anger and not feel a

release of hurt or false sense of power by lashing out. Because no matter what

anyone else says or does even if they are in the wrong ONLY I can dictate what

I do.

BPD isnt a cancer of the soul. Nor is it a true mental illness that

is organic in the brain. It is a set of behaviors one uses as a defense

against the world and eventually even the reality of what they have become.

Behavior can change if one is willing to make the sacrifice of change and lay

waste to foolish prides, fantasy and unnecessary defenses in exchange for

different coping skills .

It is choice. Everyday, every decision we make is a personal choice.

Even behavior that hurts others to protect a fake sense of integrity.

[Guest guest]

>>There is a point of defensiveness they

reached (probably long before we met them) that has turned into total

offensiveness towards the people close to them.>>

I agree! As far as my nada goes....I see her and her illness keeping her inside

this box and the older she gets and the longer she denies her illness...the

smaller the box becomes...and we either go along with this life she lives (this

is where the fog comes into play) or we end up getting ourselves out or getting

cut out! And then , of course, we're fogged again....They cannot see the small,

confined place they have built for themselves. All in the belief that this place

is safe! That's why they are so defensive to the threat of anyone other than

themselves.

My nada recently pulled something on a kind person here where I live. Then she

moved out of town. I can see how badly she's gotten, but I made a decision four

years ago and I'm sticking to it. She does have the ability to help herself,

she's an adult, and she will have to handle the consequences. Four years ago, I

couldn't go to town and not have someone come up to me and have a comment about

my choices, but now things have done a 180, and I now have these same folks tell

me I've done the right thing. lol Having two of my siblings with bpd as well was

very overwhelming because I was out numbered before I even opened my mouth!

But!!! Living in this small town has ended up being the best place for me,

because I've ended up having a support group without even trying!! lol

Meanwhile...my foo continues to fracture....sigh...by keeping themselves

convinced that they are " right " . Their choice.

Warm thoughts,

Re: working toward forgiveness

>> In ModOasis , " wjseetch " <wjseetch@a...> wrote: My

nada did not go out and pick this bpd up off the street just to hurt

me...any more than my friend went out and stood in a breeze and

caught cancer...that's what I meant. It was beyond their control. As

we have all learned here,someone with bpd truely feels that they are

doing nothing wrong.>>

I think this is an excellent point and I am finding a variant of this

perspecctive is working for me (dealing with it as though it is like

a physical sickness) -- one thing that I want to add though when i

read this.

On some level the bpd thinks they are doing nothing wrong, but on

another level I can't help but imagine in their mind they think they

can't do anything right -- and feel they always (always ,always) have

to prove the opposite. I too am just looking for a way to situate the past in

my own mind so

it does not interfere so much with my present and future.

Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner

" Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via

1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to:

http://www.BPDCentral.com

[Guest guest]

>>There is a point of defensiveness they

reached (probably long before we met them) that has turned into total

offensiveness towards the people close to them.>>

I agree! As far as my nada goes....I see her and her illness keeping her inside

this box and the older she gets and the longer she denies her illness...the

smaller the box becomes...and we either go along with this life she lives (this

is where the fog comes into play) or we end up getting ourselves out or getting

cut out! And then , of course, we're fogged again....They cannot see the small,

confined place they have built for themselves. All in the belief that this place

is safe! That's why they are so defensive to the threat of anyone other than

themselves.

My nada recently pulled something on a kind person here where I live. Then she

moved out of town. I can see how badly she's gotten, but I made a decision four

years ago and I'm sticking to it. She does have the ability to help herself,

she's an adult, and she will have to handle the consequences. Four years ago, I

couldn't go to town and not have someone come up to me and have a comment about

my choices, but now things have done a 180, and I now have these same folks tell

me I've done the right thing. lol Having two of my siblings with bpd as well was

very overwhelming because I was out numbered before I even opened my mouth!

But!!! Living in this small town has ended up being the best place for me,

because I've ended up having a support group without even trying!! lol

Meanwhile...my foo continues to fracture....sigh...by keeping themselves

convinced that they are " right " . Their choice.

Warm thoughts,

Re: working toward forgiveness

>> In ModOasis , " wjseetch " <wjseetch@a...> wrote: My

nada did not go out and pick this bpd up off the street just to hurt

me...any more than my friend went out and stood in a breeze and

caught cancer...that's what I meant. It was beyond their control. As

we have all learned here,someone with bpd truely feels that they are

doing nothing wrong.>>

I think this is an excellent point and I am finding a variant of this

perspecctive is working for me (dealing with it as though it is like

a physical sickness) -- one thing that I want to add though when i

read this.

On some level the bpd thinks they are doing nothing wrong, but on

another level I can't help but imagine in their mind they think they

can't do anything right -- and feel they always (always ,always) have

to prove the opposite. I too am just looking for a way to situate the past in

my own mind so

it does not interfere so much with my present and future.

Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner

" Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via

1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to:

http://www.BPDCentral.com

[Guest guest]

Lark,

You have the same problem with your mom that I have had with mine. I just

left my own house with my things & took off to unknown parts for a long

time. Mother & the kids (my siblings) had no place to go & no money at the

time. I could no longer live in the same house with her accusing me of

sleeping with hubby # 3. Yet she never left hubby number 1 for molesting me.

I don't under stand it. I had a boyfriend once that she was attracted to & I

was going to go on a date with him. I came down stairs & saw her touching

his ________ & gyrating. I was so devastated. She did it on purpose & she

intended to hurt me by doing it. It isn't so much that I really cared for

the guy, because I found out that I didn't. Perhaps it was because he was

enjoying himself at my expense also? I was more the betrayal of the whole

thing. She never loved me enough to be my mother, & now she took the trust

away that I had for her on anything else.

I have noticed that a lot of times I do cut people " Bad " or " Good " , but I

base it on how much I can trust them with personal issues & the first time

they betray me, I try to never go around them again. I think its a bad flea

that I have.

I have bad mouthed my nephew on here. It wasn't that I hate him, because I

don't. I love the little turkey. It just he has so many things about him

that are so frustrating to live with. I know they are because of his fetal

alcohol, so that does help some. He has some BP tendencies or should I say

his behavior is just as frustrating & hard to live with as my mothers. He

has the rages, the name calling, & a few of the other symptoms of BP. I know

it is his fetal alcohol, but it is just as frustrating. Anyway, coping with

nephew & coping with mother is more than I can handle at one time.

Sorry this is so long. I just had to say something since you said this & it

brought back memories.

Debbie

> I know that my mother has deliberately hurt me and this is

> something I'm working through right now. Jealousy is in her and a

> desire to feel better about herself by cutting me down. On purpose.

> So, I don't feel I can excuse all her actions because of BPD. Some

> of them I can, some not. Because even people who don't have BPD

> traits can be jealous and malicious. They just aren't very nice

> people.

>

> Lark

>

>

>

>

>

>

> > ,

> >

> > This is a popular topic! Here's my two cents. I don't exactly

> know

> > what forgiveness is. I, too, am leery of the concept. Nada wants

> > nothing more than an ultimate endorsement of her reality--some

> > ultimate admission by me (and the entire family), that she was a

> > good mother--or at least a REAL one, who meant well, and that I was

> > too sensitive, and that if I hurt for any reason it was not the

> > cause of anything SHE ever did, but my own failings. Sometimes she

> > seems to have moments of lucidity, but ultimately every second she

> > has me on her radar, it is all about trying to force everyone's

> > reality into that picture, especially mine. To the extent that

> > forgiveness means accepting HER reality instead of mine, it

> > invalidates my entire existence, and of course I refuse to do

> that.

> > I want to be happy. I deserve to be alive, and to feel normal--not

> > disgusting, not the opposite of disgusting. Just, normal.

> >

> > There is also a lot of talk out there about being grateful for what

> > you DID have. For example, my nada fed and clothed me, paid for my

> > school, drove me to after school activities. Etc. To this day I

> > feel like a BAD child for not being grateful for these things. But

> > why should I be, when I know in my heart that every second she was

> > with me, her strongest impulse was to make me miserable as

> > possible? Because it really, really WAS. As far as my religion

> > goes, it requires me to love all people as equals--none less or

> more

> > than others. I love her with the requisite love I feel is due to

> > any other human. But I have no AFFECTION for her. Would

> > forgiveness mean developing affection for the person who has caused

> > more harm than good in one's life, and STILL wants to do so more

> > than anything? I feel constant guilt that I have no affection for

> > my nada. She knows I don't, and it brings up her abandonment

> issues

> > even more. Most of us do so much more for our nadas than we

> > actually feel inclined to do, because we feel we are SUPPOSED to

> > care. And society of course imparts strong duties on children.

> >

> > That being said, I think it IS important to forgive, and to love.

> I

> > think the first thing is to try and resolve the anger you are

> > feeling. Anger must be resolved, and it you don't take control, it

> > will find a way to resolve itself--which may affect your health, or

> > the relationships you value. I also believe that it's not right or

> > healthy to harbor negative thoughts towards anyone, nada or no.

> She

> > chose to engage in destructive behaviour. She now has to live with

> > the consequences. (She was not a real mother; no she has no real

> > daughter). But judging her as 'bad' or 'evil', etc., it doesn't

> get

> > you anywhere, and personally I think it's wrong. I would say

> > forgiveness would mean looking at the situation overall, deciding

> > what you honestly think is most right, and doing that. Forgiveness

> > might also mean admitting to yourself there might be a real person

> > under the bpd, and that person would not choose to act as she did

> if

> > she understood what she was doing.

> >

> > I have no conclusions. Hope this helps a bit though.

> >

> > Charlie

>

>

>

> Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner

> " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via

1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to:

> http://www.BPDCentral.com

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Lark,

You have the same problem with your mom that I have had with mine. I just

left my own house with my things & took off to unknown parts for a long

time. Mother & the kids (my siblings) had no place to go & no money at the

time. I could no longer live in the same house with her accusing me of

sleeping with hubby # 3. Yet she never left hubby number 1 for molesting me.

I don't under stand it. I had a boyfriend once that she was attracted to & I

was going to go on a date with him. I came down stairs & saw her touching

his ________ & gyrating. I was so devastated. She did it on purpose & she

intended to hurt me by doing it. It isn't so much that I really cared for

the guy, because I found out that I didn't. Perhaps it was because he was

enjoying himself at my expense also? I was more the betrayal of the whole

thing. She never loved me enough to be my mother, & now she took the trust

away that I had for her on anything else.

I have noticed that a lot of times I do cut people " Bad " or " Good " , but I

base it on how much I can trust them with personal issues & the first time

they betray me, I try to never go around them again. I think its a bad flea

that I have.

I have bad mouthed my nephew on here. It wasn't that I hate him, because I

don't. I love the little turkey. It just he has so many things about him

that are so frustrating to live with. I know they are because of his fetal

alcohol, so that does help some. He has some BP tendencies or should I say

his behavior is just as frustrating & hard to live with as my mothers. He

has the rages, the name calling, & a few of the other symptoms of BP. I know

it is his fetal alcohol, but it is just as frustrating. Anyway, coping with

nephew & coping with mother is more than I can handle at one time.

Sorry this is so long. I just had to say something since you said this & it

brought back memories.

Debbie

> I know that my mother has deliberately hurt me and this is

> something I'm working through right now. Jealousy is in her and a

> desire to feel better about herself by cutting me down. On purpose.

> So, I don't feel I can excuse all her actions because of BPD. Some

> of them I can, some not. Because even people who don't have BPD

> traits can be jealous and malicious. They just aren't very nice

> people.

>

> Lark

>

>

>

>

>

>

> > ,

> >

> > This is a popular topic! Here's my two cents. I don't exactly

> know

> > what forgiveness is. I, too, am leery of the concept. Nada wants

> > nothing more than an ultimate endorsement of her reality--some

> > ultimate admission by me (and the entire family), that she was a

> > good mother--or at least a REAL one, who meant well, and that I was

> > too sensitive, and that if I hurt for any reason it was not the

> > cause of anything SHE ever did, but my own failings. Sometimes she

> > seems to have moments of lucidity, but ultimately every second she

> > has me on her radar, it is all about trying to force everyone's

> > reality into that picture, especially mine. To the extent that

> > forgiveness means accepting HER reality instead of mine, it

> > invalidates my entire existence, and of course I refuse to do

> that.

> > I want to be happy. I deserve to be alive, and to feel normal--not

> > disgusting, not the opposite of disgusting. Just, normal.

> >

> > There is also a lot of talk out there about being grateful for what

> > you DID have. For example, my nada fed and clothed me, paid for my

> > school, drove me to after school activities. Etc. To this day I

> > feel like a BAD child for not being grateful for these things. But

> > why should I be, when I know in my heart that every second she was

> > with me, her strongest impulse was to make me miserable as

> > possible? Because it really, really WAS. As far as my religion

> > goes, it requires me to love all people as equals--none less or

> more

> > than others. I love her with the requisite love I feel is due to

> > any other human. But I have no AFFECTION for her. Would

> > forgiveness mean developing affection for the person who has caused

> > more harm than good in one's life, and STILL wants to do so more

> > than anything? I feel constant guilt that I have no affection for

> > my nada. She knows I don't, and it brings up her abandonment

> issues

> > even more. Most of us do so much more for our nadas than we

> > actually feel inclined to do, because we feel we are SUPPOSED to

> > care. And society of course imparts strong duties on children.

> >

> > That being said, I think it IS important to forgive, and to love.

> I

> > think the first thing is to try and resolve the anger you are

> > feeling. Anger must be resolved, and it you don't take control, it

> > will find a way to resolve itself--which may affect your health, or

> > the relationships you value. I also believe that it's not right or

> > healthy to harbor negative thoughts towards anyone, nada or no.

> She

> > chose to engage in destructive behaviour. She now has to live with

> > the consequences. (She was not a real mother; no she has no real

> > daughter). But judging her as 'bad' or 'evil', etc., it doesn't

> get

> > you anywhere, and personally I think it's wrong. I would say

> > forgiveness would mean looking at the situation overall, deciding

> > what you honestly think is most right, and doing that. Forgiveness

> > might also mean admitting to yourself there might be a real person

> > under the bpd, and that person would not choose to act as she did

> if

> > she understood what she was doing.

> >

> > I have no conclusions. Hope this helps a bit though.

> >

> > Charlie

>

>

>

> Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner

> " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via

1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to:

> http://www.BPDCentral.com

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Lark,

You have the same problem with your mom that I have had with mine. I just

left my own house with my things & took off to unknown parts for a long

time. Mother & the kids (my siblings) had no place to go & no money at the

time. I could no longer live in the same house with her accusing me of

sleeping with hubby # 3. Yet she never left hubby number 1 for molesting me.

I don't under stand it. I had a boyfriend once that she was attracted to & I

was going to go on a date with him. I came down stairs & saw her touching

his ________ & gyrating. I was so devastated. She did it on purpose & she

intended to hurt me by doing it. It isn't so much that I really cared for

the guy, because I found out that I didn't. Perhaps it was because he was

enjoying himself at my expense also? I was more the betrayal of the whole

thing. She never loved me enough to be my mother, & now she took the trust

away that I had for her on anything else.

I have noticed that a lot of times I do cut people " Bad " or " Good " , but I

base it on how much I can trust them with personal issues & the first time

they betray me, I try to never go around them again. I think its a bad flea

that I have.

I have bad mouthed my nephew on here. It wasn't that I hate him, because I

don't. I love the little turkey. It just he has so many things about him

that are so frustrating to live with. I know they are because of his fetal

alcohol, so that does help some. He has some BP tendencies or should I say

his behavior is just as frustrating & hard to live with as my mothers. He

has the rages, the name calling, & a few of the other symptoms of BP. I know

it is his fetal alcohol, but it is just as frustrating. Anyway, coping with

nephew & coping with mother is more than I can handle at one time.

Sorry this is so long. I just had to say something since you said this & it

brought back memories.

Debbie

> I know that my mother has deliberately hurt me and this is

> something I'm working through right now. Jealousy is in her and a

> desire to feel better about herself by cutting me down. On purpose.

> So, I don't feel I can excuse all her actions because of BPD. Some

> of them I can, some not. Because even people who don't have BPD

> traits can be jealous and malicious. They just aren't very nice

> people.

>

> Lark

>

>

>

>

>

>

> > ,

> >

> > This is a popular topic! Here's my two cents. I don't exactly

> know

> > what forgiveness is. I, too, am leery of the concept. Nada wants

> > nothing more than an ultimate endorsement of her reality--some

> > ultimate admission by me (and the entire family), that she was a

> > good mother--or at least a REAL one, who meant well, and that I was

> > too sensitive, and that if I hurt for any reason it was not the

> > cause of anything SHE ever did, but my own failings. Sometimes she

> > seems to have moments of lucidity, but ultimately every second she

> > has me on her radar, it is all about trying to force everyone's

> > reality into that picture, especially mine. To the extent that

> > forgiveness means accepting HER reality instead of mine, it

> > invalidates my entire existence, and of course I refuse to do

> that.

> > I want to be happy. I deserve to be alive, and to feel normal--not

> > disgusting, not the opposite of disgusting. Just, normal.

> >

> > There is also a lot of talk out there about being grateful for what

> > you DID have. For example, my nada fed and clothed me, paid for my

> > school, drove me to after school activities. Etc. To this day I

> > feel like a BAD child for not being grateful for these things. But

> > why should I be, when I know in my heart that every second she was

> > with me, her strongest impulse was to make me miserable as

> > possible? Because it really, really WAS. As far as my religion

> > goes, it requires me to love all people as equals--none less or

> more

> > than others. I love her with the requisite love I feel is due to

> > any other human. But I have no AFFECTION for her. Would

> > forgiveness mean developing affection for the person who has caused

> > more harm than good in one's life, and STILL wants to do so more

> > than anything? I feel constant guilt that I have no affection for

> > my nada. She knows I don't, and it brings up her abandonment

> issues

> > even more. Most of us do so much more for our nadas than we

> > actually feel inclined to do, because we feel we are SUPPOSED to

> > care. And society of course imparts strong duties on children.

> >

> > That being said, I think it IS important to forgive, and to love.

> I

> > think the first thing is to try and resolve the anger you are

> > feeling. Anger must be resolved, and it you don't take control, it

> > will find a way to resolve itself--which may affect your health, or

> > the relationships you value. I also believe that it's not right or

> > healthy to harbor negative thoughts towards anyone, nada or no.

> She

> > chose to engage in destructive behaviour. She now has to live with

> > the consequences. (She was not a real mother; no she has no real

> > daughter). But judging her as 'bad' or 'evil', etc., it doesn't

> get

> > you anywhere, and personally I think it's wrong. I would say

> > forgiveness would mean looking at the situation overall, deciding

> > what you honestly think is most right, and doing that. Forgiveness

> > might also mean admitting to yourself there might be a real person

> > under the bpd, and that person would not choose to act as she did

> if

> > she understood what she was doing.

> >

> > I have no conclusions. Hope this helps a bit though.

> >

> > Charlie

>

>

>

> Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner

> " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via

1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to:

> http://www.BPDCentral.com

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> I know that my mother has deliberately hurt me and this is

> something I'm working through right now.

Hi Lark,

I understand what you're saying. My mother is the same...is it BPD or just

nastiness ? The last time I saw my mother was my fathers 80th birthday 2

years ago. She called me fat ( she's nearly 300 pounds) then at night, she

hugged my husband good night, hugged my brother, my sister-in-law, looked me

straight in the eye and passed over me, then hugged my niece good night.

That was very painful for me..I didn't do anything, and certainly not

anything to justify this kind of behavior. The next day she didn't speak to

me at all. Had I been smart, I would have just left. I plan on that this

year when we go there for her 80th birthday. If she does anything like

this, one offense, I'm out the door and we'll go home !! I think it has to

be the BPD no one can be that nasty without having something wrong with

them...

Jackie

[Guest guest]

> I know that my mother has deliberately hurt me and this is

> something I'm working through right now.

Hi Lark,

I understand what you're saying. My mother is the same...is it BPD or just

nastiness ? The last time I saw my mother was my fathers 80th birthday 2

years ago. She called me fat ( she's nearly 300 pounds) then at night, she

hugged my husband good night, hugged my brother, my sister-in-law, looked me

straight in the eye and passed over me, then hugged my niece good night.

That was very painful for me..I didn't do anything, and certainly not

anything to justify this kind of behavior. The next day she didn't speak to

me at all. Had I been smart, I would have just left. I plan on that this

year when we go there for her 80th birthday. If she does anything like

this, one offense, I'm out the door and we'll go home !! I think it has to

be the BPD no one can be that nasty without having something wrong with

them...

Jackie

[Guest guest]

> At my sisters funeral my mother went up to my half brothers from my

father,

> her ex husband and hugged each of them, hugged my half sister, walked

past

> me, hugged my step sister, hugged my step brother, glared at me and

walked by

> again to hug her former in laws , walked past me yet AGAIN to hug some

cousins

> the walked away. Yes. I too know all about the games they play...

what do they see they have gained from this childish behavior ? i will not

put up with that abuse any more. I've had to endure 45 years of it..that's

long enough !

Jackie

[Guest guest]

> At my sisters funeral my mother went up to my half brothers from my

father,

> her ex husband and hugged each of them, hugged my half sister, walked

past

> me, hugged my step sister, hugged my step brother, glared at me and

walked by

> again to hug her former in laws , walked past me yet AGAIN to hug some

cousins

> the walked away. Yes. I too know all about the games they play...

what do they see they have gained from this childish behavior ? i will not

put up with that abuse any more. I've had to endure 45 years of it..that's

long enough !

Jackie

[Guest guest]

Steve & Jackie Wyandt wrote:

> I totally agree !! The things my mother has done to us were her

> CHOICES...getting cancer ( or any other illness) is not a choice...I agree,

> society today has made everyone a victum of one thing or another, so that

> means no ones responsible for their actions ( the courts haven't helped here

> either) that's hog wash. We have much more control over our behaivor than

> that !

Hi Jackie and SexyStars,

Its an educational thing. The court system has yet to be educated.

BPDs use BPD logic, not real-world logic. One has to remember that BPD

is a DSM-defined *mental illness*. BPD is a cognitive (thinking) and

emotional (feeling) disorder. In other words, cognitive stuff gets

twisted on the way into the BP's brain and the BP, emotionally, creates

'facts' based on their feelings (see SWOE, p 56, " Feelings Create

Facts). One needs to learn how BPs process info in order to understand

their behavior.

BPs (ego/self) defense mechanisms come into play *automatically*

(without thinking). Those defense mechanisms include projection, denial,

rationalization, splitting, and raging. But, during their lives some BPs

have also learned how to be manipulative. The BPs in our lives are

uniquely different because their mental illness is based on a

combination of any 5 or more of the 9 BPD traits and they've learned

stuff from living in a world filled with logic-based people. Some of our

BPD parents are higher-functioning than others. Higher functioning BPs

can hold a job in the work-a-day world whereas low-functioning ones need

institutionalization. SWOE was written for/about high-functioning BPDs.

The *unconsciously* motivated defense mechanisms that come into play

when BPs are stressed include:

- Projection - ie, she's accusing you of things she's doing.

- Denial - ie, denying truth (denying reality stuff)

- Rationalization - ie, telling lies & re-writing history

- Splitting - ie, seeing others as " all good " OR " all bad "

- Raging - some BPs rage, others do not

- etc

Its time to read the first 4 chapters of SWOE again. The first 4

chapters of SWOE are about " Understanding BPD Behavior " . And, chapters

5-8 of SWOE are about " Taking Back Control of Your Life " . But, we KOs

never had CONTROL of our lives in the first place.

Also, one must remember that the core issue of those with BPD is

abandonment/entanglement. This BPD stuff is *complex*. To understand BPD

one has to learn to think like a BPD.

- Edith

List Manager / WelcomeToOz Family of NonBP Email Support Groups

Into my 8th year of recovery from having had a BPD/NPD parent and hubby.

[Guest guest]

Steve & Jackie Wyandt wrote:

> I totally agree !! The things my mother has done to us were her

> CHOICES...getting cancer ( or any other illness) is not a choice...I agree,

> society today has made everyone a victum of one thing or another, so that

> means no ones responsible for their actions ( the courts haven't helped here

> either) that's hog wash. We have much more control over our behaivor than

> that !

Hi Jackie and SexyStars,

Its an educational thing. The court system has yet to be educated.

BPDs use BPD logic, not real-world logic. One has to remember that BPD

is a DSM-defined *mental illness*. BPD is a cognitive (thinking) and

emotional (feeling) disorder. In other words, cognitive stuff gets

twisted on the way into the BP's brain and the BP, emotionally, creates

'facts' based on their feelings (see SWOE, p 56, " Feelings Create

Facts). One needs to learn how BPs process info in order to understand

their behavior.

BPs (ego/self) defense mechanisms come into play *automatically*

(without thinking). Those defense mechanisms include projection, denial,

rationalization, splitting, and raging. But, during their lives some BPs

have also learned how to be manipulative. The BPs in our lives are

uniquely different because their mental illness is based on a

combination of any 5 or more of the 9 BPD traits and they've learned

stuff from living in a world filled with logic-based people. Some of our

BPD parents are higher-functioning than others. Higher functioning BPs

can hold a job in the work-a-day world whereas low-functioning ones need

institutionalization. SWOE was written for/about high-functioning BPDs.

The *unconsciously* motivated defense mechanisms that come into play

when BPs are stressed include:

- Projection - ie, she's accusing you of things she's doing.

- Denial - ie, denying truth (denying reality stuff)

- Rationalization - ie, telling lies & re-writing history

- Splitting - ie, seeing others as " all good " OR " all bad "

- Raging - some BPs rage, others do not

- etc

Its time to read the first 4 chapters of SWOE again. The first 4

chapters of SWOE are about " Understanding BPD Behavior " . And, chapters

5-8 of SWOE are about " Taking Back Control of Your Life " . But, we KOs

never had CONTROL of our lives in the first place.

Also, one must remember that the core issue of those with BPD is

abandonment/entanglement. This BPD stuff is *complex*. To understand BPD

one has to learn to think like a BPD.

- Edith

List Manager / WelcomeToOz Family of NonBP Email Support Groups

Into my 8th year of recovery from having had a BPD/NPD parent and hubby.

[Guest guest]

Hi Groupees!

(back from a loooooooong tax season and am in Ann Arbor, MI right now

visiting my daughter)

Can I stick in my two cents worth?

All my life I blamed myself for " everything " that went wrong, including

all of mother's foibles. When people played the Blame Game, on Me, I

believed them, and then I tried to modify My behavior to fix the

problem. This was true in the workplace, at home, with FOO, with

friends, with neighbors.........ad nauseum. I'd literally cave if

mother (or hubby) blamed me for anything, however trite, and I'd make

immediate amends. Their word was gospel. Why, I don't know. It just

was.

I was never a subscriber to any of the commonly bantered theories about

one's upbringing causing our adulthood problems. What a cop-out, I

thought, because I was solely responsible for my own problems, actions,

and reactions. Translated, mother's problems were mine. What I didn't

realize - then - was I had absorbed them as my own and I couldn't tell

the difference. Hence, the FOG bank.

Whelp, I'm here to say that it feels " great " to finally put the blame

somewhere else - on mother! It's been the best concept in the whole

wide world. Woo! Hoo!

No, I don't go around blaming everything on everyone now. Instead, I'm

more aware, so that I'm not victimized by it anymore, or as much.

SmileS!

Carol M

[Guest guest]

Hi Groupees!

(back from a loooooooong tax season and am in Ann Arbor, MI right now

visiting my daughter)

Can I stick in my two cents worth?

All my life I blamed myself for " everything " that went wrong, including

all of mother's foibles. When people played the Blame Game, on Me, I

believed them, and then I tried to modify My behavior to fix the

problem. This was true in the workplace, at home, with FOO, with

friends, with neighbors.........ad nauseum. I'd literally cave if

mother (or hubby) blamed me for anything, however trite, and I'd make

immediate amends. Their word was gospel. Why, I don't know. It just

was.

I was never a subscriber to any of the commonly bantered theories about

one's upbringing causing our adulthood problems. What a cop-out, I

thought, because I was solely responsible for my own problems, actions,

and reactions. Translated, mother's problems were mine. What I didn't

realize - then - was I had absorbed them as my own and I couldn't tell

the difference. Hence, the FOG bank.

Whelp, I'm here to say that it feels " great " to finally put the blame

somewhere else - on mother! It's been the best concept in the whole

wide world. Woo! Hoo!

No, I don't go around blaming everything on everyone now. Instead, I'm

more aware, so that I'm not victimized by it anymore, or as much.

SmileS!

Carol M

[Guest guest]

> I am sorry but I still have to disagree with likening of BPD with cancer.

I never said it was like cancer. I said that I liken it to having an illness and

I used cancer as an example. I've met my maternal grandmother, a woman from

hell. My nada has grown up knowing only one way of looking at life. She didn't

go out and grab it to haunt my life with. During her life the discovery about

bpd was yet to be discovered. She is now 65 years old, and I will never see her

get help. She can't see that she needs it...she's lived her life for too long in

that same box, she can't allow herself to see the way out. And I refuse to join

her there. Losing her daughter is easier for her than admitting there is

something wrong....My nada is a low functioning BPD. She self-deceives.

My way of putting this into a place where I can go on is to see it as

something separate from me. As something that belongs to nada,and allowing

myself to let go of the pain I've carried with me for too many years. My nada is

ill, I'm not, and I won't carry the burden of it anymore.(four years now! )Like

a cancer patient...she has control over whether she will take treatments or

not....it's up to her.....

Somehow, what I had written before has become changed.....:0/

Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner

" Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via

1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to:

http://www.BPDCentral.com

[Guest guest]

Carol,

So much that you wrote here is the same for me...I also was raised to believe

that I was the holder of " blame " . I was the designated " fixer " . That was my

place in this world and I didn't know anything else. The abuse I went through

was what I considered normal. How was I to know anything else???Nada kept us

from others. I found out about BPD in 1997. Then I joined this list a year

later

Finding out about BPD and realizing that there were other options out there, not

just the two nada told me about,( B & W thinking) shocked and amazed me! Talk

about a new frontier!! lol

The fact that the fog rarely rolls in anymore is a testament to how far I have

come. The fact that I actually stood in the same room with nada and confronted

her, laid down the boundary lines in bold, dark lines and stayed firm, is

something I never, ever thought I would or could do! The price for my freedom

was costly...I lost my whole family. But I have gained my freedom from the fog.

And I agree with you, it feels good to put the blame back where it truly

belongs, with nada. YEAH!

As my favorite song goes, " I can see clearly now.... "

I've come along way baby!

lol

Warm thoughts,

.....

Re: Re: working toward forgiveness

Hi Groupees!

(back from a loooooooong tax season and am in Ann Arbor, MI right now

visiting my daughter)

Can I stick in my two cents worth?

All my life I blamed myself for " everything " that went wrong, including

all of mother's foibles. When people played the Blame Game, on Me, I

believed them, and then I tried to modify My behavior to fix the

problem. This was true in the workplace, at home, with FOO, with

friends, with neighbors.........ad nauseum. I'd literally cave if

mother (or hubby) blamed me for anything, however trite, and I'd make

immediate amends. Their word was gospel. Why, I don't know. It just

was.

I was never a subscriber to any of the commonly bantered theories about

one's upbringing causing our adulthood problems. What a cop-out, I

thought, because I was solely responsible for my own problems, actions,

and reactions. Translated, mother's problems were mine. What I didn't

realize - then - was I had absorbed them as my own and I couldn't tell

the difference. Hence, the FOG bank.

Whelp, I'm here to say that it feels " great " to finally put the blame

somewhere else - on mother! It's been the best concept in the whole

wide world. Woo! Hoo!

No, I don't go around blaming everything on everyone now. Instead, I'm

more aware, so that I'm not victimized by it anymore, or as much.

SmileS!

Carol M

Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner

" Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via

1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to:

http://www.BPDCentral.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Debbie,

The same thing happens to me too as I read this list...I

remember things that I thought I had forgotten. But that's good

because these things need to be dealt with.

Lark

> Lark,

> You have the same problem with your mom that I have had with mine.

I just

> left my own house with my things & took off to unknown parts for a

long

> time. Mother & the kids (my siblings) had no place to go & no money

at the

> time. I could no longer live in the same house with her accusing me

of

> sleeping with hubby # 3. Yet she never left hubby number 1 for

molesting me.

> I don't under stand it. I had a boyfriend once that she was

attracted to & I

> was going to go on a date with him. I came down stairs & saw her

touching

> his ________ & gyrating. I was so devastated. She did it on purpose

& she

> intended to hurt me by doing it. It isn't so much that I really

cared for

> the guy, because I found out that I didn't. Perhaps it was because

he was

> enjoying himself at my expense also? I was more the betrayal of the

whole

> thing. She never loved me enough to be my mother, & now she took

the trust

> away that I had for her on anything else.

> I have noticed that a lot of times I do cut people " Bad " or " Good " ,

but I

> base it on how much I can trust them with personal issues & the

first time

> they betray me, I try to never go around them again. I think its a

bad flea

> that I have.

> I have bad mouthed my nephew on here. It wasn't that I hate him,

because I

> don't. I love the little turkey. It just he has so many things

about him

> that are so frustrating to live with. I know they are because of

his fetal

> alcohol, so that does help some. He has some BP tendencies or

should I say

> his behavior is just as frustrating & hard to live with as my

mothers. He

> has the rages, the name calling, & a few of the other symptoms of

BP. I know

> it is his fetal alcohol, but it is just as frustrating. Anyway,

coping with

> nephew & coping with mother is more than I can handle at one time.

> Sorry this is so long. I just had to say something since you said

this & it

> brought back memories.

> Debbie

>

>

>

> > I know that my mother has deliberately hurt me and this is

> > something I'm working through right now. Jealousy is in her and a

> > desire to feel better about herself by cutting me down. On

purpose.

> > So, I don't feel I can excuse all her actions because of BPD.

Some

> > of them I can, some not. Because even people who don't have BPD

> > traits can be jealous and malicious. They just aren't very nice

> > people.

> >

> > Lark

> >

[Guest guest]

Hey and Carol M,

You guys are such inspiration! I'm so glad that you are part of this

list. I have always been the peace-maker in my family too. I have

hated confrontation and fighting in my family more than I loved

myself or my own opinions for most of my life.

Blessings,

[Guest guest]

About a year ago my nada said that I was just like her mother because

I always looked after everyone's feelings and made sure everyone was

okay.

Anyway, when she said it, I felt revulsion. Part of it was her tone

of voice.

What she meant was that I looked after her feelings so well and I

came to realize that I was putting her feelings before my own and

ignoring myself.

Lark

> Hey and Carol M,

> You guys are such inspiration! I'm so glad that you are part of

this

> list. I have always been the peace-maker in my family too. I have

> hated confrontation and fighting in my family more than I loved

> myself or my own opinions for most of my life.

> Blessings,

>