Re: Post-therapy blues

June 3, 2004

,

Next time you see your therapist, please make sure he/she knows how

you felt after therapy. If the goal is to build a relationship,

fine, but this should not be at the expense of making you miserable

and permitting you to be abused.

- Dan

June 3, 2004

Oh ,

I'm so sorry this is so difficult for you. It is wonderful of you

to try. I think I was unacceptably harsh before, saying you should

treat your nada as an 'animal'. Sorry. That was my abused child

rage coming out. I know that you love her and don't want to think

like tthat. I am no therapist, and I don't claim to be. But I have

some observations that I hope will be helpful to you. First, I want

to validate you again and again for being such a loving daughter as

to truly try and have a relationship with your nada. Just bringing

her to therapy is a wonderful act of courage. But K, I think you

are seeing this now--unless she admits she is bpd, and gets her own

individual treatment and lots of it, she will never be able to

progress the ways that you need. It sounds like you are still

trying to find a real mother in there. Since she is so high

functioning in the outside world (did you say she's a lawyer? ay

yiyi), I know it seems like she MUST have the capacity to be a mom,

somewhere in there. But, people with bpd just don't. They just

don't. All you can learn to do is 'handle' her as she is, and

minimize the pain to yourself. The Surviving a Borderline Parent

book is helpful in this regard (and I need to get SWOE, everyone

says that is the bible). When does she trigger you? When are you

most vulnerable, etc. I'm sure your actual therapist is going

through this with you. I also think that you need to grieve for

your mother. The SBP book asks for the KO to write a memorial, and

have a ceremony, and I actually did that, and it was very helpful to

me.

And as far as what your nada keeps asking--yes of COURSE you want

her to admit she has bpd! And it is valid and GOOD that you do.

Facing her with this and sticking to your ground is a tremendous act

of courage, and, though she doesn't see it, it is the single most

respectful and loving thing that you can do for her. Because by

doing so, you acknowledge she is a REAL person--and that the bpd is

the problem. Maybe she will come around and improve but until she

does, please try to grieve the mother you never had, and remember

that we are with you. I don't have the courage right now to try and

do this for my own nada. In fact I feel guilty about every second

of the day for not trying to help her. I so admire you. (But not

your therapist so much . . . )

Take care

Charlie

> Post-therapy blues…

> Yuck, I feel all tangled up in a sticky web of confusion. I'm

really

> sad and disappointed because I can't see where this is going. I

feel

> somewhat railroaded today and I feel like I don't know what is

what

> anymore.

>

> It started out with our T saying that he felt we needed to have an

> outing together to practice our skills communicating gently and

> trying to get along for a few hours in a controlled environment.

We

> should have limited conversations about my dogs or what was going

on

> in general. Then, if we felt hurt or stung by something to bring

it

> into therapy for discussion. Nada said she thought this was a

good

> idea (this all she really wants from me, I think). I said I

wasn't

> too excited about it as I had not even seen a glimmer of insight

from

> Nada yet. Nada interrupts and asks me for the 7th time in 3

> sessions, " What ARE your goals, ? To have me labeled a

> borderline? " I huff in frustration of the repeated question and

the

> implication that I have clearly dismissed the other the 6 times.

I

> re-explained. " Mom, I want the T to help us define our hurts

> together, help us heal them, and learn a better way to communicate

> with each other. " Of course I know large concepts like " hurts "

> and " heal " and " communicate " are beyond her black and white

> comprehension. She replies, " So you want me to get

diagnosed? " " No,

> that's not what I said! " But, Oh God IT IS WHAT I WANT, I just

can't

> say that or she's be out in a flash. So, I am being deceptive I

> guess and that totally frustrates me. Of course, my deceptive

nature

> is what she holds against me most…. And cycle continues.

>

> I asked her what her goals were (again) and she repeated the same

> answer, " Well, you refuse to see or speak you me unless we are in

the

> presence of a therapist. " I said, " yes, those are the conditions,

> but why are you here? " She says, " So, we can have a cup of

coffee

> occasionally. " I said, " Is that all you want? To have coffee? "

> (which I don't even like, what who's counting.) " Well, (with big

> eyed innocence) that would certainly be nice. " Ugggggggghhhhhhh!

> I am looking for a mother that is not there. I know this

> intellectually, but my poor heart is still looking!

>

> I looked at the T and said, " She has to try if I am going to agree

to

> spend anytime with her! " Nada interjected, " Try what? What am I

> suppose to be doing? " T ignored her and replied, " You want her to

> have the goals you want her to have. Well, she doesn't. She is

> being honest about what she wants out of this and that's where we

are

> right now. And we need to deal with where we are. This is

> relationship therapy. I am working to help you both develop some

> kind of relationship. You are in individual therapy and your

mother

> is not. You want her to jump in to where you are and that is not

> going to happen right now. "

>

> I understand this. I do. But I don't like it at all. I have

> misrepresented myself by not saying directly that I want her to

get

> therapy individually. But that isn't my problem right? It's HER

> problem, but she too frickin' crazy to see that she has a

> problem….And the cycle continues.

>

> And we went round and round as usual, accept I started saying how

her

> messages made me feel, and there was a " moment " of hope. The T

asked

> again if we wanted to have an outing this week, and she

said, " That's

> what I've been trying to do for months, yes, yes I would. " I held

my

> breath sort as they both looked to me. Then Nada responded with

> frustration to my pause and said, " Hmph, I guess not. " I said, " I

am

> holding my breath because the way you just responded was like

> saying, `I've been right all along, it's all her fault that we

have

> not been communicating. I'm right, she's wrong. " The T agreed

and

> said, " Yes, that is a blame statement. You have a lot of anger

and

> you think you are covering it, but you aren't. You have poison in

> your voice and your daughter has radar for it. " Nada started to

cry

> and said, " I don't even know what you're talking about. Now I'm

> scared to speak. How do I even know if I am saying something like

> that? " T said, " That's why it would be good to get some insight

into

> what kind of hurt is going on inside you. " She said, " OK. " (in

full

> martyr-mode, but still a glimmer of hope.)

>

> I got the blues, post-therapy blues,

>

June 3, 2004

,

it doesn't sound like the therapy is working for you. You're supposed to

feel better, not worse. Maybe you need to discuss your goals with the

therapist, or find another therapist. Good luck

Jackie

Post-therapy blues.

Yuck, I feel all tangled up in a sticky web of confusion. I'm really

sad and disappointed because I can't see where this is going. I feel

somewhat railroaded today and I feel like I don't know what is what

anymore.

June 3, 2004

Thanks Charlie, your post really softened me. (You have nothing to

apologize for--- I wish I could just handle her). I'm too impatient

with all of this. It's bound to be hard and just because I have done

my homework doesn't mean Nada has even signed up for classes :0---

I feel like I'm on the edge of some grat realization...

Blessings,

ModOasis , " charlottehoneychurch "

<charlottehoneychurch@y...> wrote:

> Oh ,

>

> I'm so sorry this is so difficult for you. It is wonderful of you

> to try. I think I was unacceptably harsh before, saying you should

> treat your nada as an 'animal'. Sorry. That was my abused child

> rage coming out. I know that you love her and don't want to think

> like tthat. I am no therapist, and I don't claim to be. But I

have

> some observations that I hope will be helpful to you. First, I

want

> to validate you again and again for being such a loving daughter as

> to truly try and have a relationship with your nada. Just bringing

> her to therapy is a wonderful act of courage. But K, I think you

> are seeing this now--unless she admits she is bpd, and gets her own

> individual treatment and lots of it, she will never be able to

> progress the ways that you need. It sounds like you are still

> trying to find a real mother in there. Since she is so high

> functioning in the outside world (did you say she's a lawyer? ay

> yiyi), I know it seems like she MUST have the capacity to be a mom,

> somewhere in there. But, people with bpd just don't. They just

> don't. All you can learn to do is 'handle' her as she is, and

> minimize the pain to yourself. The Surviving a Borderline Parent

> book is helpful in this regard (and I need to get SWOE, everyone

> says that is the bible). When does she trigger you? When are you

> most vulnerable, etc. I'm sure your actual therapist is going

> through this with you. I also think that you need to grieve for

> your mother. The SBP book asks for the KO to write a memorial, and

> have a ceremony, and I actually did that, and it was very helpful

to

> me.

>

> And as far as what your nada keeps asking--yes of COURSE you want

> her to admit she has bpd! And it is valid and GOOD that you do.

> Facing her with this and sticking to your ground is a tremendous

act

> of courage, and, though she doesn't see it, it is the single most

> respectful and loving thing that you can do for her. Because by

> doing so, you acknowledge she is a REAL person--and that the bpd is

> the problem. Maybe she will come around and improve but until she

> does, please try to grieve the mother you never had, and remember

> that we are with you. I don't have the courage right now to try

and

> do this for my own nada. In fact I feel guilty about every second

> of the day for not trying to help her. I so admire you. (But not

> your therapist so much . . . )

>

> Take care

> Charlie

>

> > Post-therapy blues…

> > Yuck, I feel all tangled up in a sticky web of confusion. I'm

> really

> > sad and disappointed because I can't see where this is going. I

> feel

> > somewhat railroaded today and I feel like I don't know what is

> what

> > anymore.

> >

> > It started out with our T saying that he felt we needed to have

an

> > outing together to practice our skills communicating gently and

> > trying to get along for a few hours in a controlled environment.

> We

> > should have limited conversations about my dogs or what was going

> on

> > in general. Then, if we felt hurt or stung by something to bring

> it

> > into therapy for discussion. Nada said she thought this was a

> good

> > idea (this all she really wants from me, I think). I said I

> wasn't

> > too excited about it as I had not even seen a glimmer of insight

> from

> > Nada yet. Nada interrupts and asks me for the 7th time in 3

> > sessions, " What ARE your goals, ? To have me labeled a

> > borderline? " I huff in frustration of the repeated question and

> the

> > implication that I have clearly dismissed the other the 6 times.

> I

> > re-explained. " Mom, I want the T to help us define our hurts

> > together, help us heal them, and learn a better way to

communicate

> > with each other. " Of course I know large concepts like " hurts "

> > and " heal " and " communicate " are beyond her black and white

> > comprehension. She replies, " So you want me to get

> diagnosed? " " No,

> > that's not what I said! " But, Oh God IT IS WHAT I WANT, I just

> can't

> > say that or she's be out in a flash. So, I am being deceptive I

> > guess and that totally frustrates me. Of course, my deceptive

> nature

> > is what she holds against me most…. And cycle continues.

> >

> > I asked her what her goals were (again) and she repeated the same

> > answer, " Well, you refuse to see or speak you me unless we are in

> the

> > presence of a therapist. " I said, " yes, those are the

conditions,

> > but why are you here? " She says, " So, we can have a cup of

> coffee

> > occasionally. " I said, " Is that all you want? To have coffee? "

> > (which I don't even like, what who's counting.) " Well, (with big

> > eyed innocence) that would certainly be nice. " Ugggggggghhhhhhh!

> > I am looking for a mother that is not there. I know this

> > intellectually, but my poor heart is still looking!

> >

> > I looked at the T and said, " She has to try if I am going to

agree

> to

> > spend anytime with her! " Nada interjected, " Try what? What am I

> > suppose to be doing? " T ignored her and replied, " You want her

to

> > have the goals you want her to have. Well, she doesn't. She is

> > being honest about what she wants out of this and that's where we

> are

> > right now. And we need to deal with where we are. This is

> > relationship therapy. I am working to help you both develop some

> > kind of relationship. You are in individual therapy and your

> mother

> > is not. You want her to jump in to where you are and that is not

> > going to happen right now. "

> >

> > I understand this. I do. But I don't like it at all. I have

> > misrepresented myself by not saying directly that I want her to

> get

> > therapy individually. But that isn't my problem right? It's HER

> > problem, but she too frickin' crazy to see that she has a

> > problem….And the cycle continues.

> >

> > And we went round and round as usual, accept I started saying how

> her

> > messages made me feel, and there was a " moment " of hope. The T

> asked

> > again if we wanted to have an outing this week, and she

> said, " That's

> > what I've been trying to do for months, yes, yes I would. " I

held

> my

> > breath sort as they both looked to me. Then Nada responded with

> > frustration to my pause and said, " Hmph, I guess not. " I

said, " I

> am

> > holding my breath because the way you just responded was like

> > saying, `I've been right all along, it's all her fault that we

> have

> > not been communicating. I'm right, she's wrong. " The T agreed

> and

> > said, " Yes, that is a blame statement. You have a lot of anger

> and

> > you think you are covering it, but you aren't. You have poison

in

> > your voice and your daughter has radar for it. " Nada started to

> cry

> > and said, " I don't even know what you're talking about. Now I'm

> > scared to speak. How do I even know if I am saying something

like

> > that? " T said, " That's why it would be good to get some insight

> into

> > what kind of hurt is going on inside you. " She said, " OK. " (in

> full

> > martyr-mode, but still a glimmer of hope.)

> >

> > I got the blues, post-therapy blues,

> >

June 3, 2004