Re: Forgive my digression - IS EVERYONE ON THE WTO LISTS SOME KIND OF

[Guest guest]

> " Forgive my digression - IS EVERYONE ON THE WTO LISTS SOME KIND OF

> ARTISTIC PERSON!!! "

>

> My theory is emotional pain leads to art...just my theory, based on

observation. After some of my biggest hurts, I have produced some

wicked good stuff (according to others)---if all is going well, not

so always so easy to tap into those creative juices...

>

> And her is something else I have noticed: intelligent people always

question their IQ, sane people always question their minds, and

creative people always question their talent...

>

> Again, just what I perceive based on my observations and

experiences.

>

> Anyway, I need some advice from you all, here: it's about KO's

having such long ropes...I am always nice to everyone, always

polite..well, in the last 5 years, I have have come into contact

with 5 people with some sort of PD...probably BPD or Narcissistic D

or Paranoid PD...why do I even give them a chance? I will say I am

not surrounded by 'em (like I was in my early mid 20's, before I had

a clue) --- do you think I just have a very long rope, or can't shake

the past...I will say once it becomes apparent someone has a serious

problems, which to me means they are destructive, I extricate myself

as gracefully as possible...although I always having this little nag

in my head saying I ought to HELP them....

>

> PS: that is why I love this list so much; you'll be reading posts,

and you'll go: " hey, that's right... "

>

Hi Cha,

I'm confused about the directions of the creative-emotional pain,

chicken-egg relationship. I wonder sometimes if part of the problem

is that we are very sensitive and that leads to some kind of artistic

expression as well as a susceptibility to being hurt emotionally.

In my own life I went from having a nurturing mom to one who was

stoic. I've noticed from reading this list that different siblings in

a family respond in different ways to the family environment. Some

seem to survive OK and some are terribly affected and the level of

dysfunction seem to vary widely. I'm guessing that is where the FOO

conficts about what happened in the family get started. Some

sensitive KOs are devastated and some thick-skinned KOs don't see it

as abnormal. It seems to me that it is reflected here in two

different camps, those KOs who can't forgive a parent who asks for

forgiveness and and those who can. Of course there are those NPDs who

never ask for forgiveness, so it isn't possible. I forgave my parent

when she was ready and it freed me to progress. I guess everyone must

make their own decision.

About the " long rope " and " although I always having this little nag

in my head saying I ought to HELP them.... " (Sound of a submarine

diving alarm, shouts of DIVE!, DIVE!) (LOL)

BTDT(Been there, done that). They are looking for someone who can

accept their behavior, and we are so caring that we fall into the

caretaker role. I know that I am not the kind of person who can

ignore their pleas without a suffering conscience and I have fallen

into these relationships thinking that I could " help " them. When I

finally set out to leave the dangerous relationship their actions

went from trying to control the situation(while they believed that

they could) to attempts to do damage me when they knew that the end

was inevitable.

I have noticed that smart lifeguards use every method that protects

themselves before jumping in and swimming within grasping range of

the " victim " . And these folks really think they are " victims " and are

so believable that we are in a helping mode before we know the truth.

For myself, from now on, I will be throwing life jackets, life buoy

rings, etc, and stay at the other end of the rope until I know that

it's safe. If it isn't going to be safe, I'll hand it to someone else

who saves lives for a living, or, go on my way.

There's an old saying that, " nice guys finish last " . It really isn't

true because there are very successful people who treat their

employees with great respect and kindness and the business flourishes.

Maybe it should be re-written, " nice guys(gals) who allow themselves

to be used by selfish people, finish last " .

I suspect you already have a plan of what to do but just need

assurance. Be assured.

(Looking on Ebay for a used Life Buoy)

[Guest guest]

,

I disagree with the idea that some children are more sensitive to

the abuse of a borderline, and others can 'handle' it. I strongly

disagree. No matter how sensitive or not, no child comes out safe

from a certain degree of bpd behaviour. It is a matter of how much

bpd behaviour there is--NOT how 'sensitive' the child is. Perhaps I

am a little sensitive to this subject, bks as I was growing up, nada

constantly told me I was 'too sensitive'. At any rate I would bet

money on the fact that, if a child of a borderline seems not to be

hurt easily by a nada, it's because either nada was not 'using' that

particular child in a bpd way, or it's because the child was split

good. In that case, the child will grow up with different issues

than those that were split bad and abused--but they will still have

serious issues. Split goods may not find it taxing to be around

their nadas, but they grow up to be bpds themselves. (I have a

sister and an ex-boyfriend who prove this point.)

I think saying that some kids are more sensitive than others puts

blame for pain and shame on the child, which is just what nada (and

society) want from you!

_c

> > " Forgive my digression - IS EVERYONE ON THE WTO LISTS SOME KIND

OF

> > ARTISTIC PERSON!!! "

> >

> > My theory is emotional pain leads to art...just my theory, based

on

> observation. After some of my biggest hurts, I have produced some

> wicked good stuff (according to others)---if all is going well,

not

> so always so easy to tap into those creative juices...

> >

> > And her is something else I have noticed: intelligent people

always

> question their IQ, sane people always question their minds, and

> creative people always question their talent...

> >

> > Again, just what I perceive based on my observations and

> experiences.

> >

> > Anyway, I need some advice from you all, here: it's about KO's

> having such long ropes...I am always nice to everyone, always

> polite..well, in the last 5 years, I have have come into contact

> with 5 people with some sort of PD...probably BPD or Narcissistic

D

> or Paranoid PD...why do I even give them a chance? I will say I am

> not surrounded by 'em (like I was in my early mid 20's, before I

had

> a clue) --- do you think I just have a very long rope, or can't

shake

> the past...I will say once it becomes apparent someone has a

serious

> problems, which to me means they are destructive, I extricate

myself

> as gracefully as possible...although I always having this little

nag

> in my head saying I ought to HELP them....

> >

> > PS: that is why I love this list so much; you'll be reading

posts,

> and you'll go: " hey, that's right... "

> >

>

>

> Hi Cha,

>

> I'm confused about the directions of the creative-emotional pain,

> chicken-egg relationship. I wonder sometimes if part of the

problem

> is that we are very sensitive and that leads to some kind of

artistic

> expression as well as a susceptibility to being hurt emotionally.

>

> In my own life I went from having a nurturing mom to one who was

> stoic. I've noticed from reading this list that different siblings

in

> a family respond in different ways to the family environment.

Some

> seem to survive OK and some are terribly affected and the level of

> dysfunction seem to vary widely. I'm guessing that is where the

FOO

> conficts about what happened in the family get started. Some

> sensitive KOs are devastated and some thick-skinned KOs don't see

it

> as abnormal. It seems to me that it is reflected here in two

> different camps, those KOs who can't forgive a parent who asks for

> forgiveness and and those who can. Of course there are those NPDs

who

> never ask for forgiveness, so it isn't possible. I forgave my

parent

> when she was ready and it freed me to progress. I guess everyone

must

> make their own decision.

>

> About the " long rope " and " although I always having this little

nag

> in my head saying I ought to HELP them.... " (Sound of a submarine

> diving alarm, shouts of DIVE!, DIVE!) (LOL)

>

> BTDT(Been there, done that). They are looking for someone who can

> accept their behavior, and we are so caring that we fall into the

> caretaker role. I know that I am not the kind of person who can

> ignore their pleas without a suffering conscience and I have

fallen

> into these relationships thinking that I could " help " them. When

I

> finally set out to leave the dangerous relationship their actions

> went from trying to control the situation(while they believed that

> they could) to attempts to do damage me when they knew that the

end

> was inevitable.

>

> I have noticed that smart lifeguards use every method that

protects

> themselves before jumping in and swimming within grasping range of

> the " victim " . And these folks really think they are " victims " and

are

> so believable that we are in a helping mode before we know the

truth.

>

> For myself, from now on, I will be throwing life jackets, life

buoy

> rings, etc, and stay at the other end of the rope until I know

that

> it's safe. If it isn't going to be safe, I'll hand it to someone

else

> who saves lives for a living, or, go on my way.

>

> There's an old saying that, " nice guys finish last " . It really

isn't

> true because there are very successful people who treat their

> employees with great respect and kindness and the business

flourishes.

>

> Maybe it should be re-written, " nice guys(gals) who allow

themselves

> to be used by selfish people, finish last " .

>

> I suspect you already have a plan of what to do but just need

> assurance. Be assured.

>

>

>

> (Looking on Ebay for a used Life Buoy)

[Guest guest]

,

I disagree with the idea that some children are more sensitive to

the abuse of a borderline, and others can 'handle' it. I strongly

disagree. No matter how sensitive or not, no child comes out safe

from a certain degree of bpd behaviour. It is a matter of how much

bpd behaviour there is--NOT how 'sensitive' the child is. Perhaps I

am a little sensitive to this subject, bks as I was growing up, nada

constantly told me I was 'too sensitive'. At any rate I would bet

money on the fact that, if a child of a borderline seems not to be

hurt easily by a nada, it's because either nada was not 'using' that

particular child in a bpd way, or it's because the child was split

good. In that case, the child will grow up with different issues

than those that were split bad and abused--but they will still have

serious issues. Split goods may not find it taxing to be around

their nadas, but they grow up to be bpds themselves. (I have a

sister and an ex-boyfriend who prove this point.)

I think saying that some kids are more sensitive than others puts

blame for pain and shame on the child, which is just what nada (and

society) want from you!

_c

> > " Forgive my digression - IS EVERYONE ON THE WTO LISTS SOME KIND

OF

> > ARTISTIC PERSON!!! "

> >

> > My theory is emotional pain leads to art...just my theory, based

on

> observation. After some of my biggest hurts, I have produced some

> wicked good stuff (according to others)---if all is going well,

not

> so always so easy to tap into those creative juices...

> >

> > And her is something else I have noticed: intelligent people

always

> question their IQ, sane people always question their minds, and

> creative people always question their talent...

> >

> > Again, just what I perceive based on my observations and

> experiences.

> >

> > Anyway, I need some advice from you all, here: it's about KO's

> having such long ropes...I am always nice to everyone, always

> polite..well, in the last 5 years, I have have come into contact

> with 5 people with some sort of PD...probably BPD or Narcissistic

D

> or Paranoid PD...why do I even give them a chance? I will say I am

> not surrounded by 'em (like I was in my early mid 20's, before I

had

> a clue) --- do you think I just have a very long rope, or can't

shake

> the past...I will say once it becomes apparent someone has a

serious

> problems, which to me means they are destructive, I extricate

myself

> as gracefully as possible...although I always having this little

nag

> in my head saying I ought to HELP them....

> >

> > PS: that is why I love this list so much; you'll be reading

posts,

> and you'll go: " hey, that's right... "

> >

>

>

> Hi Cha,

>

> I'm confused about the directions of the creative-emotional pain,

> chicken-egg relationship. I wonder sometimes if part of the

problem

> is that we are very sensitive and that leads to some kind of

artistic

> expression as well as a susceptibility to being hurt emotionally.

>

> In my own life I went from having a nurturing mom to one who was

> stoic. I've noticed from reading this list that different siblings

in

> a family respond in different ways to the family environment.

Some

> seem to survive OK and some are terribly affected and the level of

> dysfunction seem to vary widely. I'm guessing that is where the

FOO

> conficts about what happened in the family get started. Some

> sensitive KOs are devastated and some thick-skinned KOs don't see

it

> as abnormal. It seems to me that it is reflected here in two

> different camps, those KOs who can't forgive a parent who asks for

> forgiveness and and those who can. Of course there are those NPDs

who

> never ask for forgiveness, so it isn't possible. I forgave my

parent

> when she was ready and it freed me to progress. I guess everyone

must

> make their own decision.

>

> About the " long rope " and " although I always having this little

nag

> in my head saying I ought to HELP them.... " (Sound of a submarine

> diving alarm, shouts of DIVE!, DIVE!) (LOL)

>

> BTDT(Been there, done that). They are looking for someone who can

> accept their behavior, and we are so caring that we fall into the

> caretaker role. I know that I am not the kind of person who can

> ignore their pleas without a suffering conscience and I have

fallen

> into these relationships thinking that I could " help " them. When

I

> finally set out to leave the dangerous relationship their actions

> went from trying to control the situation(while they believed that

> they could) to attempts to do damage me when they knew that the

end

> was inevitable.

>

> I have noticed that smart lifeguards use every method that

protects

> themselves before jumping in and swimming within grasping range of

> the " victim " . And these folks really think they are " victims " and

are

> so believable that we are in a helping mode before we know the

truth.

>

> For myself, from now on, I will be throwing life jackets, life

buoy

> rings, etc, and stay at the other end of the rope until I know

that

> it's safe. If it isn't going to be safe, I'll hand it to someone

else

> who saves lives for a living, or, go on my way.

>

> There's an old saying that, " nice guys finish last " . It really

isn't

> true because there are very successful people who treat their

> employees with great respect and kindness and the business

flourishes.

>

> Maybe it should be re-written, " nice guys(gals) who allow

themselves

> to be used by selfish people, finish last " .

>

> I suspect you already have a plan of what to do but just need

> assurance. Be assured.

>

>

>

> (Looking on Ebay for a used Life Buoy)

[Guest guest]

I agree w/the notion that some kids of BPs become BPs and some don't

and some that appear 'sensitive' also become BPs. What I've always

found ironic about the BPs in my life is how much they claim to

be 'sensitive' and yet they are the most insensitive people to

others that I've ever seen. So okay, they are sensitive to being

hurt themselves but could care less when and how and if they hurt

someone else. That is my nada to a 'T', hence I can say I don't even

like the word sensitive and rarely use it to describe people just

b/c the people I've met who've dubbed themselves as sensitive tend

to be very sensitive to self and not at all to others. I'd rather be

called insensitive in that regard...kind of like the person who has

to say 'trust me'. If they were trustworthy, words aren't

necessary...actions speak for themselves, but as soon as I hear

someone say 'trust me', a red flag goes off in my head that

says 'look for where they are untrustworthy b/c a person of

integrity doesn't need to say these things outloud'.

In so far as forgiveness and nadas and fadas and the two different

camps on this board, I can say I don't understand that at all. I

don't know many KOs here who've actually been offered a sincere

apology by their BP nada or fada. I'm just saying on the history

I've seen over the years here- be they KOs split as all good or all

bad. My nada has offered me an apology two times my whole life and

it was amidst a hystrionic scream trying to justify my mirroring her

past behavior onto her. Never has she come out and said 'look, I'm

sorry I was an ahole when I visited you. i was scared of getting too

attached and so became someone else to protect myself from this

relationship b/c I've got basic trust issues.' If my nada were to

say anything remotely along these lines like healthy people do (and

healthy people also screw up inside relationships and do things out

of a lack of trust to hurt their beloved...the difference is that

they take ownership of their behavior and try to redeem the

situation- IMHO), I'd freak out and all would be forgiven as she'd

have seen some light I've never seen in her eyes. As for me, I agree

forgiveness isn't so much about nadas words to me or to my brother,

but rather forgiveness of myself to being vulnerable yet once again

to her mental illness barage of abuse...forgiving myself for

allowing me to go down a deadend road once again w/o truly learning-

for being crazy myself by expecting a different outcome as someone

elloquently quoted recently w/regards to the definition of 'crazy'.

I'm over nada. She doesn't want to change and she's admitted as much

when I confronted her two years ago. She apologized, but a sincere

apology would be followed up w/action. i can say " I love you. " , but

if I hit you, then what do you do? Say I really love you and

redefine your version of love? Realize I've got a warped version of

love and confuse love and hate and continue to let me abuse you b/c

you, unlike me who are so noble and long-suffering and righteous,

know the difference and truly do love me? Or do you walk away b/c

you love yourself enough to know that I am talking out my ass and

only a professional can help me IF I CHOOSE TO GET HELP. My nada

refuses b/c she is too good for her problems. It is the same w/her

sister who is too good to be an alcoholic. I'm not too good and I

took inventory and apologized to people who'd gotten my flea BP

behavior when I started coming to life a few years ago and the ones

I've run off out of my life I've prayed for them to be at peace (and

yet I also know like attracts like and people who are healthy don't

flock to nutcases).

That is my view of nada and forgiveness based on my experience as

well as reading other KOs stories on this list. I'd love to hear

about a KO coming back here and saying 'nada finally saw the light

and apologized and is in therapy'. Wow, that would be a really good

day on this board. As it is, I really love what Edith posted

yesterday about that one BP in recovery taking inventory. Bless that

dear woman for her honesty and her desire to take responsibility and

so it also is w/Randi. I admire her to no end for what she has done

and how she has recovered. It is very possible, but I don't know too

many nadas and fadas of the KOs here who are in therapy. Correct me

if I'm wrong.

Kerrie

> > > " Forgive my digression - IS EVERYONE ON THE WTO LISTS SOME

KIND

> OF

> > > ARTISTIC PERSON!!! "

> > >

> > > My theory is emotional pain leads to art...just my theory,

based

> on

> > observation. After some of my biggest hurts, I have produced

some

> > wicked good stuff (according to others)---if all is going well,

> not

> > so always so easy to tap into those creative juices...

> > >

> > > And her is something else I have noticed: intelligent people

> always

> > question their IQ, sane people always question their minds, and

> > creative people always question their talent...

> > >

> > > Again, just what I perceive based on my observations and

> > experiences.

> > >

> > > Anyway, I need some advice from you all, here: it's about KO's

> > having such long ropes...I am always nice to everyone, always

> > polite..well, in the last 5 years, I have have come into contact

> > with 5 people with some sort of PD...probably BPD or

Narcissistic

> D

> > or Paranoid PD...why do I even give them a chance? I will say I

am

> > not surrounded by 'em (like I was in my early mid 20's, before I

> had

> > a clue) --- do you think I just have a very long rope, or can't

> shake

> > the past...I will say once it becomes apparent someone has a

> serious

> > problems, which to me means they are destructive, I extricate

> myself

> > as gracefully as possible...although I always having this little

> nag

> > in my head saying I ought to HELP them....

> > >

> > > PS: that is why I love this list so much; you'll be reading

> posts,

> > and you'll go: " hey, that's right... "

> > >

> >

> >

> > Hi Cha,

> >

> > I'm confused about the directions of the creative-emotional

pain,

> > chicken-egg relationship. I wonder sometimes if part of the

> problem

> > is that we are very sensitive and that leads to some kind of

> artistic

> > expression as well as a susceptibility to being hurt emotionally.

> >

> > In my own life I went from having a nurturing mom to one who was

> > stoic. I've noticed from reading this list that different

siblings

> in

> > a family respond in different ways to the family environment.

> Some

> > seem to survive OK and some are terribly affected and the level

of

> > dysfunction seem to vary widely. I'm guessing that is where the

> FOO

> > conficts about what happened in the family get started. Some

> > sensitive KOs are devastated and some thick-skinned KOs don't

see

> it

> > as abnormal. It seems to me that it is reflected here in two

> > different camps, those KOs who can't forgive a parent who asks

for

> > forgiveness and and those who can. Of course there are those

NPDs

> who

> > never ask for forgiveness, so it isn't possible. I forgave my

> parent

> > when she was ready and it freed me to progress. I guess everyone

> must

> > make their own decision.

> >

> > About the " long rope " and " although I always having this little

> nag

> > in my head saying I ought to HELP them.... " (Sound of a

submarine

> > diving alarm, shouts of DIVE!, DIVE!) (LOL)

> >

> > BTDT(Been there, done that). They are looking for someone who

can

> > accept their behavior, and we are so caring that we fall into

the

> > caretaker role. I know that I am not the kind of person who can

> > ignore their pleas without a suffering conscience and I have

> fallen

> > into these relationships thinking that I could " help " them.

When

> I

> > finally set out to leave the dangerous relationship their

actions

> > went from trying to control the situation(while they believed

that

> > they could) to attempts to do damage me when they knew that the

> end

> > was inevitable.

> >

> > I have noticed that smart lifeguards use every method that

> protects

> > themselves before jumping in and swimming within grasping range

of

> > the " victim " . And these folks really think they are " victims "

and

> are

> > so believable that we are in a helping mode before we know the

> truth.

> >

> > For myself, from now on, I will be throwing life jackets, life

> buoy

> > rings, etc, and stay at the other end of the rope until I know

> that

> > it's safe. If it isn't going to be safe, I'll hand it to someone

> else

> > who saves lives for a living, or, go on my way.

> >

> > There's an old saying that, " nice guys finish last " . It really

> isn't

> > true because there are very successful people who treat their

> > employees with great respect and kindness and the business

> flourishes.

> >

> > Maybe it should be re-written, " nice guys(gals) who allow

> themselves

> > to be used by selfish people, finish last " .

> >

> > I suspect you already have a plan of what to do but just need

> > assurance. Be assured.

> >

> >

> >

> > (Looking on Ebay for a used Life Buoy)

[Guest guest]

I agree w/the notion that some kids of BPs become BPs and some don't

and some that appear 'sensitive' also become BPs. What I've always

found ironic about the BPs in my life is how much they claim to

be 'sensitive' and yet they are the most insensitive people to

others that I've ever seen. So okay, they are sensitive to being

hurt themselves but could care less when and how and if they hurt

someone else. That is my nada to a 'T', hence I can say I don't even

like the word sensitive and rarely use it to describe people just

b/c the people I've met who've dubbed themselves as sensitive tend

to be very sensitive to self and not at all to others. I'd rather be

called insensitive in that regard...kind of like the person who has

to say 'trust me'. If they were trustworthy, words aren't

necessary...actions speak for themselves, but as soon as I hear

someone say 'trust me', a red flag goes off in my head that

says 'look for where they are untrustworthy b/c a person of

integrity doesn't need to say these things outloud'.

In so far as forgiveness and nadas and fadas and the two different

camps on this board, I can say I don't understand that at all. I

don't know many KOs here who've actually been offered a sincere

apology by their BP nada or fada. I'm just saying on the history

I've seen over the years here- be they KOs split as all good or all

bad. My nada has offered me an apology two times my whole life and

it was amidst a hystrionic scream trying to justify my mirroring her

past behavior onto her. Never has she come out and said 'look, I'm

sorry I was an ahole when I visited you. i was scared of getting too

attached and so became someone else to protect myself from this

relationship b/c I've got basic trust issues.' If my nada were to

say anything remotely along these lines like healthy people do (and

healthy people also screw up inside relationships and do things out

of a lack of trust to hurt their beloved...the difference is that

they take ownership of their behavior and try to redeem the

situation- IMHO), I'd freak out and all would be forgiven as she'd

have seen some light I've never seen in her eyes. As for me, I agree

forgiveness isn't so much about nadas words to me or to my brother,

but rather forgiveness of myself to being vulnerable yet once again

to her mental illness barage of abuse...forgiving myself for

allowing me to go down a deadend road once again w/o truly learning-

for being crazy myself by expecting a different outcome as someone

elloquently quoted recently w/regards to the definition of 'crazy'.

I'm over nada. She doesn't want to change and she's admitted as much

when I confronted her two years ago. She apologized, but a sincere

apology would be followed up w/action. i can say " I love you. " , but

if I hit you, then what do you do? Say I really love you and

redefine your version of love? Realize I've got a warped version of

love and confuse love and hate and continue to let me abuse you b/c

you, unlike me who are so noble and long-suffering and righteous,

know the difference and truly do love me? Or do you walk away b/c

you love yourself enough to know that I am talking out my ass and

only a professional can help me IF I CHOOSE TO GET HELP. My nada

refuses b/c she is too good for her problems. It is the same w/her

sister who is too good to be an alcoholic. I'm not too good and I

took inventory and apologized to people who'd gotten my flea BP

behavior when I started coming to life a few years ago and the ones

I've run off out of my life I've prayed for them to be at peace (and

yet I also know like attracts like and people who are healthy don't

flock to nutcases).

That is my view of nada and forgiveness based on my experience as

well as reading other KOs stories on this list. I'd love to hear

about a KO coming back here and saying 'nada finally saw the light

and apologized and is in therapy'. Wow, that would be a really good

day on this board. As it is, I really love what Edith posted

yesterday about that one BP in recovery taking inventory. Bless that

dear woman for her honesty and her desire to take responsibility and

so it also is w/Randi. I admire her to no end for what she has done

and how she has recovered. It is very possible, but I don't know too

many nadas and fadas of the KOs here who are in therapy. Correct me

if I'm wrong.

Kerrie

> > > " Forgive my digression - IS EVERYONE ON THE WTO LISTS SOME

KIND

> OF

> > > ARTISTIC PERSON!!! "

> > >

> > > My theory is emotional pain leads to art...just my theory,

based

> on

> > observation. After some of my biggest hurts, I have produced

some

> > wicked good stuff (according to others)---if all is going well,

> not

> > so always so easy to tap into those creative juices...

> > >

> > > And her is something else I have noticed: intelligent people

> always

> > question their IQ, sane people always question their minds, and

> > creative people always question their talent...

> > >

> > > Again, just what I perceive based on my observations and

> > experiences.

> > >

> > > Anyway, I need some advice from you all, here: it's about KO's

> > having such long ropes...I am always nice to everyone, always

> > polite..well, in the last 5 years, I have have come into contact

> > with 5 people with some sort of PD...probably BPD or

Narcissistic

> D

> > or Paranoid PD...why do I even give them a chance? I will say I

am

> > not surrounded by 'em (like I was in my early mid 20's, before I

> had

> > a clue) --- do you think I just have a very long rope, or can't

> shake

> > the past...I will say once it becomes apparent someone has a

> serious

> > problems, which to me means they are destructive, I extricate

> myself

> > as gracefully as possible...although I always having this little

> nag

> > in my head saying I ought to HELP them....

> > >

> > > PS: that is why I love this list so much; you'll be reading

> posts,

> > and you'll go: " hey, that's right... "

> > >

> >

> >

> > Hi Cha,

> >

> > I'm confused about the directions of the creative-emotional

pain,

> > chicken-egg relationship. I wonder sometimes if part of the

> problem

> > is that we are very sensitive and that leads to some kind of

> artistic

> > expression as well as a susceptibility to being hurt emotionally.

> >

> > In my own life I went from having a nurturing mom to one who was

> > stoic. I've noticed from reading this list that different

siblings

> in

> > a family respond in different ways to the family environment.

> Some

> > seem to survive OK and some are terribly affected and the level

of

> > dysfunction seem to vary widely. I'm guessing that is where the

> FOO

> > conficts about what happened in the family get started. Some

> > sensitive KOs are devastated and some thick-skinned KOs don't

see

> it

> > as abnormal. It seems to me that it is reflected here in two

> > different camps, those KOs who can't forgive a parent who asks

for

> > forgiveness and and those who can. Of course there are those

NPDs

> who

> > never ask for forgiveness, so it isn't possible. I forgave my

> parent

> > when she was ready and it freed me to progress. I guess everyone

> must

> > make their own decision.

> >

> > About the " long rope " and " although I always having this little

> nag

> > in my head saying I ought to HELP them.... " (Sound of a

submarine

> > diving alarm, shouts of DIVE!, DIVE!) (LOL)

> >

> > BTDT(Been there, done that). They are looking for someone who

can

> > accept their behavior, and we are so caring that we fall into

the

> > caretaker role. I know that I am not the kind of person who can

> > ignore their pleas without a suffering conscience and I have

> fallen

> > into these relationships thinking that I could " help " them.

When

> I

> > finally set out to leave the dangerous relationship their

actions

> > went from trying to control the situation(while they believed

that

> > they could) to attempts to do damage me when they knew that the

> end

> > was inevitable.

> >

> > I have noticed that smart lifeguards use every method that

> protects

> > themselves before jumping in and swimming within grasping range

of

> > the " victim " . And these folks really think they are " victims "

and

> are

> > so believable that we are in a helping mode before we know the

> truth.

> >

> > For myself, from now on, I will be throwing life jackets, life

> buoy

> > rings, etc, and stay at the other end of the rope until I know

> that

> > it's safe. If it isn't going to be safe, I'll hand it to someone

> else

> > who saves lives for a living, or, go on my way.

> >

> > There's an old saying that, " nice guys finish last " . It really

> isn't

> > true because there are very successful people who treat their

> > employees with great respect and kindness and the business

> flourishes.

> >

> > Maybe it should be re-written, " nice guys(gals) who allow

> themselves

> > to be used by selfish people, finish last " .

> >

> > I suspect you already have a plan of what to do but just need

> > assurance. Be assured.

> >

> >

> >

> > (Looking on Ebay for a used Life Buoy)

[Guest guest]

I don't know how many times my mother has said " I'm an honest person. "

It took me awhile to see that she isn't. I was also told that I was

too sensitive as a child...lots of times. Naturally you begin to

doubt yourself. I was split good and my sister was split bad. I'm

not a bpd but I married one that is high functioning. My son has

pointed out that my sister and my mother are alike. I still haven't

read UBM so I'm sort of wandering around without a compass, but I

know what most of you are talking about.

Lark

> > > > " Forgive my digression - IS EVERYONE ON THE WTO LISTS SOME

> KIND

> > OF

> > > > ARTISTIC PERSON!!! "

> > > >

> > > > My theory is emotional pain leads to art...just my theory,

> based

> > on

> > > observation. After some of my biggest hurts, I have produced

> some

> > > wicked good stuff (according to others)---if all is going well,

> > not

> > > so always so easy to tap into those creative juices...

> > > >

> > > > And her is something else I have noticed: intelligent people

> > always

> > > question their IQ, sane people always question their minds, and

> > > creative people always question their talent...

> > > >

> > > > Again, just what I perceive based on my observations and

> > > experiences.

> > > >

> > > > Anyway, I need some advice from you all, here: it's about

KO's

> > > having such long ropes...I am always nice to everyone, always

> > > polite..well, in the last 5 years, I have have come into

contact

> > > with 5 people with some sort of PD...probably BPD or

> Narcissistic

> > D

> > > or Paranoid PD...why do I even give them a chance? I will say I

> am

> > > not surrounded by 'em (like I was in my early mid 20's, before

I

> > had

> > > a clue) --- do you think I just have a very long rope, or can't

> > shake

> > > the past...I will say once it becomes apparent someone has a

> > serious

> > > problems, which to me means they are destructive, I extricate

> > myself

> > > as gracefully as possible...although I always having this

little

> > nag

> > > in my head saying I ought to HELP them....

> > > >

> > > > PS: that is why I love this list so much; you'll be reading

> > posts,

> > > and you'll go: " hey, that's right... "

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi Cha,

> > >

> > > I'm confused about the directions of the creative-emotional

> pain,

> > > chicken-egg relationship. I wonder sometimes if part of the

> > problem

> > > is that we are very sensitive and that leads to some kind of

> > artistic

> > > expression as well as a susceptibility to being hurt

emotionally.

> > >

> > > In my own life I went from having a nurturing mom to one who

was

> > > stoic. I've noticed from reading this list that different

> siblings

> > in

> > > a family respond in different ways to the family environment.

> > Some

> > > seem to survive OK and some are terribly affected and the level

> of

> > > dysfunction seem to vary widely. I'm guessing that is where the

> > FOO

> > > conficts about what happened in the family get started. Some

> > > sensitive KOs are devastated and some thick-skinned KOs don't

> see

> > it

> > > as abnormal. It seems to me that it is reflected here in two

> > > different camps, those KOs who can't forgive a parent who asks

> for

> > > forgiveness and and those who can. Of course there are those

> NPDs

> > who

> > > never ask for forgiveness, so it isn't possible. I forgave my

> > parent

> > > when she was ready and it freed me to progress. I guess

everyone

> > must

> > > make their own decision.

> > >

> > > About the " long rope " and " although I always having this little

> > nag

> > > in my head saying I ought to HELP them.... " (Sound of a

> submarine

> > > diving alarm, shouts of DIVE!, DIVE!) (LOL)

> > >

> > > BTDT(Been there, done that). They are looking for someone who

> can

> > > accept their behavior, and we are so caring that we fall into

> the

> > > caretaker role. I know that I am not the kind of person who can

> > > ignore their pleas without a suffering conscience and I have

> > fallen

> > > into these relationships thinking that I could " help " them.

> When

> > I

> > > finally set out to leave the dangerous relationship their

> actions

> > > went from trying to control the situation(while they believed

> that

> > > they could) to attempts to do damage me when they knew that the

> > end

> > > was inevitable.

> > >

> > > I have noticed that smart lifeguards use every method that

> > protects

> > > themselves before jumping in and swimming within grasping range

> of

> > > the " victim " . And these folks really think they are " victims "

> and

> > are

> > > so believable that we are in a helping mode before we know the

> > truth.

> > >

> > > For myself, from now on, I will be throwing life jackets, life

> > buoy

> > > rings, etc, and stay at the other end of the rope until I know

> > that

> > > it's safe. If it isn't going to be safe, I'll hand it to

someone

> > else

> > > who saves lives for a living, or, go on my way.

> > >

> > > There's an old saying that, " nice guys finish last " . It really

> > isn't

> > > true because there are very successful people who treat their

> > > employees with great respect and kindness and the business

> > flourishes.

> > >

> > > Maybe it should be re-written, " nice guys(gals) who allow

> > themselves

> > > to be used by selfish people, finish last " .

> > >

> > > I suspect you already have a plan of what to do but just need

> > > assurance. Be assured.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > (Looking on Ebay for a used Life Buoy)

[Guest guest]

Gee, I didn't mean to upset anyone.

I think I said that I wondered if the more emotionally sensitive and

artistic got hurt more, not that they turned into BPs.

This is what I wrote:

" I wonder sometimes if part of the problem is that we are very

sensitive and that leads to some kind of artistic expression as well

as a susceptibility to being hurt emotionally. "

You're both right about your own situations and I also agree that to

expect a " full " admission on the part of the BP is unrealistic. After

all their memory(reconstructed perhaps) isn't expected to be the same

as ours. For me(and just me) I have to make a distinction between

the " disease " of the person and the intrinsic value of the person.

For me, somewhere the anger-hurt had to stop, whether in my parent's

heart, or mine. I can point fingers and be angry and certainly have

in the past. I have learned from reading these lists, books - SWOE,

UBM, etc, that I cannot change the parent's behavior and probably

will only get the partial acknowledgement and acceptance of

responsibility that has already been offered. I can only count on my

behavior changing. It leaves me only a few choices, among them a

draconian cutting off the better grandparent relationship to my

children because of my problems with the other.

It seems to me that I am in the drivers seat with my own children,

and can modify the effects of the behavior, particulary since it is

not the same as what I experienced. Some BPs can relate differently

to different people and to different familial relationships. Being

able to send a grandchild home rather than live with them 24/7 is a

different environment that worked better for my parent. We had no

problems with this, no demeaning of the granchildren. The grandparent

had advanced, and we, knowing when it was enough, took the children

home when we knew it was time. It's amazing how good you get at

knowing when it's time to leave.

There is a certain amount of light walking on eggshells here, but the

alternate is to tell the children that the grandparent can't be

trusted and then years later have that child establish a relationship

with an improved grandparent and wonder what's wrong with me. In my

own case that would have been the result because the grandparent did

not ever demonstrate the old behavior in front of the grandchild for

20 years. Maybe it's better to have supervised visits and then if

there is nada behavior the children can be taken home and know that

there is a problem?

I also realize that some have nadas/fadas so extreme in their

behavior that nothing approaching normal is possible. My heart goes

out to you. I was lucky to get this far and lose most of that

anxiety, anger, etc. Our experiences seem to vary widely as KOs from

those mildly affected to those emotionally crippled by the experience.

> > > > " Forgive my digression - IS EVERYONE ON THE WTO LISTS SOME

> KIND

> > OF

> > > > ARTISTIC PERSON!!! "

> > > >

> > > > My theory is emotional pain leads to art...just my theory,

> based

> > on

> > > observation. After some of my biggest hurts, I have produced

> some

> > > wicked good stuff (according to others)---if all is going well,

> > not

> > > so always so easy to tap into those creative juices...

> > > >

> > > > And her is something else I have noticed: intelligent people

> > always

> > > question their IQ, sane people always question their minds, and

> > > creative people always question their talent...

> > > >

> > > > Again, just what I perceive based on my observations and

> > > experiences.

> > > >

> > > > Anyway, I need some advice from you all, here: it's about

KO's

> > > having such long ropes...I am always nice to everyone, always

> > > polite..well, in the last 5 years, I have have come into

contact

> > > with 5 people with some sort of PD...probably BPD or

> Narcissistic

> > D

> > > or Paranoid PD...why do I even give them a chance? I will say I

> am

> > > not surrounded by 'em (like I was in my early mid 20's, before

I

> > had

> > > a clue) --- do you think I just have a very long rope, or can't

> > shake

> > > the past...I will say once it becomes apparent someone has a

> > serious

> > > problems, which to me means they are destructive, I extricate

> > myself

> > > as gracefully as possible...although I always having this

little

> > nag

> > > in my head saying I ought to HELP them....

> > > >

> > > > PS: that is why I love this list so much; you'll be reading

> > posts,

> > > and you'll go: " hey, that's right... "

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi Cha,

> > >

> > > I'm confused about the directions of the creative-emotional

> pain,

> > > chicken-egg relationship. I wonder sometimes if part of the

> > problem

> > > is that we are very sensitive and that leads to some kind of

> > artistic

> > > expression as well as a susceptibility to being hurt

emotionally.

> > >

> > > In my own life I went from having a nurturing mom to one who

was

> > > stoic. I've noticed from reading this list that different

> siblings

> > in

> > > a family respond in different ways to the family environment.

> > Some

> > > seem to survive OK and some are terribly affected and the level

> of

> > > dysfunction seem to vary widely. I'm guessing that is where the

> > FOO

> > > conficts about what happened in the family get started. Some

> > > sensitive KOs are devastated and some thick-skinned KOs don't

> see

> > it

> > > as abnormal. It seems to me that it is reflected here in two

> > > different camps, those KOs who can't forgive a parent who asks

> for

> > > forgiveness and and those who can. Of course there are those

> NPDs

> > who

> > > never ask for forgiveness, so it isn't possible. I forgave my

> > parent

> > > when she was ready and it freed me to progress. I guess

everyone

> > must

> > > make their own decision.

> > >

> > > About the " long rope " and " although I always having this little

> > nag

> > > in my head saying I ought to HELP them.... " (Sound of a

> submarine

> > > diving alarm, shouts of DIVE!, DIVE!) (LOL)

> > >

> > > BTDT(Been there, done that). They are looking for someone who

> can

> > > accept their behavior, and we are so caring that we fall into

> the

> > > caretaker role. I know that I am not the kind of person who can

> > > ignore their pleas without a suffering conscience and I have

> > fallen

> > > into these relationships thinking that I could " help " them.

> When

> > I

> > > finally set out to leave the dangerous relationship their

> actions

> > > went from trying to control the situation(while they believed

> that

> > > they could) to attempts to do damage me when they knew that the

> > end

> > > was inevitable.

> > >

> > > I have noticed that smart lifeguards use every method that

> > protects

> > > themselves before jumping in and swimming within grasping range

> of

> > > the " victim " . And these folks really think they are " victims "

> and

> > are

> > > so believable that we are in a helping mode before we know the

> > truth.

> > >

> > > For myself, from now on, I will be throwing life jackets, life

> > buoy

> > > rings, etc, and stay at the other end of the rope until I know

> > that

> > > it's safe. If it isn't going to be safe, I'll hand it to

someone

> > else

> > > who saves lives for a living, or, go on my way.

> > >

> > > There's an old saying that, " nice guys finish last " . It really

> > isn't

> > > true because there are very successful people who treat their

> > > employees with great respect and kindness and the business

> > flourishes.

> > >

> > > Maybe it should be re-written, " nice guys(gals) who allow

> > themselves

> > > to be used by selfish people, finish last " .

> > >

> > > I suspect you already have a plan of what to do but just need

> > > assurance. Be assured.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > (Looking on Ebay for a used Life Buoy)

[Guest guest]

No worries, I was not upset! You just surfaced a very strong

opinion of mine, that's all. I was, however, very much upset when

nada (and my bpd sister) used to say I was 'too sensitive' again and

again and again . . .

> > > > > " Forgive my digression - IS EVERYONE ON THE WTO LISTS SOME

> > KIND

> > > OF

> > > > > ARTISTIC PERSON!!! "

> > > > >

> > > > > My theory is emotional pain leads to art...just my theory,

> > based

> > > on

> > > > observation. After some of my biggest hurts, I have produced

> > some

> > > > wicked good stuff (according to others)---if all is going

well,

> > > not

> > > > so always so easy to tap into those creative juices...

> > > > >

> > > > > And her is something else I have noticed: intelligent

people

> > > always

> > > > question their IQ, sane people always question their minds,

and

> > > > creative people always question their talent...

> > > > >

> > > > > Again, just what I perceive based on my observations and

> > > > experiences.

> > > > >

> > > > > Anyway, I need some advice from you all, here: it's about

> KO's

> > > > having such long ropes...I am always nice to everyone,

always

> > > > polite..well, in the last 5 years, I have have come into

> contact

> > > > with 5 people with some sort of PD...probably BPD or

> > Narcissistic

> > > D

> > > > or Paranoid PD...why do I even give them a chance? I will

say I

> > am

> > > > not surrounded by 'em (like I was in my early mid 20's,

before

> I

> > > had

> > > > a clue) --- do you think I just have a very long rope, or

can't

> > > shake

> > > > the past...I will say once it becomes apparent someone has a

> > > serious

> > > > problems, which to me means they are destructive, I

extricate

> > > myself

> > > > as gracefully as possible...although I always having this

> little

> > > nag

> > > > in my head saying I ought to HELP them....

> > > > >

> > > > > PS: that is why I love this list so much; you'll be

reading

> > > posts,

> > > > and you'll go: " hey, that's right... "

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hi Cha,

> > > >

> > > > I'm confused about the directions of the creative-emotional

> > pain,

> > > > chicken-egg relationship. I wonder sometimes if part of the

> > > problem

> > > > is that we are very sensitive and that leads to some kind of

> > > artistic

> > > > expression as well as a susceptibility to being hurt

> emotionally.

> > > >

> > > > In my own life I went from having a nurturing mom to one who

> was

> > > > stoic. I've noticed from reading this list that different

> > siblings

> > > in

> > > > a family respond in different ways to the family

environment.

> > > Some

> > > > seem to survive OK and some are terribly affected and the

level

> > of

> > > > dysfunction seem to vary widely. I'm guessing that is where

the

> > > FOO

> > > > conficts about what happened in the family get started. Some

> > > > sensitive KOs are devastated and some thick-skinned KOs

don't

> > see

> > > it

> > > > as abnormal. It seems to me that it is reflected here in

two

> > > > different camps, those KOs who can't forgive a parent who

asks

> > for

> > > > forgiveness and and those who can. Of course there are those

> > NPDs

> > > who

> > > > never ask for forgiveness, so it isn't possible. I forgave

my

> > > parent

> > > > when she was ready and it freed me to progress. I guess

> everyone

> > > must

> > > > make their own decision.

> > > >

> > > > About the " long rope " and " although I always having this

little

> > > nag

> > > > in my head saying I ought to HELP them.... " (Sound of a

> > submarine

> > > > diving alarm, shouts of DIVE!, DIVE!) (LOL)

> > > >

> > > > BTDT(Been there, done that). They are looking for someone

who

> > can

> > > > accept their behavior, and we are so caring that we fall

into

> > the

> > > > caretaker role. I know that I am not the kind of person who

can

> > > > ignore their pleas without a suffering conscience and I have

> > > fallen

> > > > into these relationships thinking that I could " help " them.

> > When

> > > I

> > > > finally set out to leave the dangerous relationship their

> > actions

> > > > went from trying to control the situation(while they

believed

> > that

> > > > they could) to attempts to do damage me when they knew that

the

> > > end

> > > > was inevitable.

> > > >

> > > > I have noticed that smart lifeguards use every method that

> > > protects

> > > > themselves before jumping in and swimming within grasping

range

> > of

> > > > the " victim " . And these folks really think they

are " victims "

> > and

> > > are

> > > > so believable that we are in a helping mode before we know

the

> > > truth.

> > > >

> > > > For myself, from now on, I will be throwing life jackets,

life

> > > buoy

> > > > rings, etc, and stay at the other end of the rope until I

know

> > > that

> > > > it's safe. If it isn't going to be safe, I'll hand it to

> someone

> > > else

> > > > who saves lives for a living, or, go on my way.

> > > >

> > > > There's an old saying that, " nice guys finish last " . It

really

> > > isn't

> > > > true because there are very successful people who treat

their

> > > > employees with great respect and kindness and the business

> > > flourishes.

> > > >

> > > > Maybe it should be re-written, " nice guys(gals) who allow

> > > themselves

> > > > to be used by selfish people, finish last " .

> > > >

> > > > I suspect you already have a plan of what to do but just

need

> > > > assurance. Be assured.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > (Looking on Ebay for a used Life Buoy)

[Guest guest]

,

No hurt feelings on this front...think you just got me thinking and

i just reflected on those thoughts and put them out here in mod

world.

I don't necessarily believe some people are more sensitive to hurt

than others b/c this topic came up b4 and all humans hurt when

injured except for some w/ Epstein-Barr Syndrome. I think you hit

thed proverbial nail on the head pointing out the varying degrees of

abuse as well as the fact that our bp parents also differ greatly.

It is my belief that the artistic soul is blessed w/an outlet for

expressing the trauma they feel vs someone else who just learns to

numb out or worse become a criminal. For me, it is affirming that

I've got all these years of journals and poems from my youth

validating the second guessing nada has put me through as well as

extended foo who just don't want to believe thibgs are that bad

behind closed doors- part of the KO problem.

In so far as grandprents, i guess i'm lucky in that sense b/c dad

died when i was 8 & I don't much like the npd boyfriend nada's got

now.I don't have the same issue w/my baby that you do w/your parents

and so leaving is a bit easier. Additionally, I've got a sister-in-

;law whose a psychiatrist and so me telling my son that nada is a

mentally ill can and will be affirmed on the in-law side. But I

won't speak ILL of her to my child b/c I grew up w/that and agree

w/what you say. I will just say she's got an illness you can't see,

like germs, and she needs our prayers but mommy and daddy don't feel

safe having you, dear baby, exposed to her b/c she is

unpredictable...lots of bridges to cross in the future, but I'm

again blessed w/my inlaws being well educated and not remotely bp

themselves and very validating.

I'd love for nada to get better, but I'm not holding my \breathe and

I don't think it good for my son to see her still acting abusive

towards me. I don't want to teach him that it is okay to accept that

type of treatment from anyone, including one's parents, no matter

what b/c the very nature of this disease is passed on from one

generation to another via behavior and trauma. To me, the buck stops

here and it has to

..

Anyway, its kind of hard typing now b/c my 7 mos old is in my lap

tyring to help me type- lol.

Take care and sorry for any confusion on my part.

Kedrrie

ModOasis , " ripplevac " <ripplevac@y...> wrote:

> Gee, I didn't mean to upset anyone.

>

> I think I said that I wondered if the more emotionally sensitive

and

> artistic got hurt more, not that they turned into BPs.

>

> This is what I wrote:

>

> " I wonder sometimes if part of the problem is that we are very

> sensitive and that leads to some kind of artistic expression as

well

> as a susceptibility to being hurt emotionally. "

>

> You're both right about your own situations and I also agree that

to

> expect a " full " admission on the part of the BP is unrealistic.

After

> all their memory(reconstructed perhaps) isn't expected to be the

same

> as ours. For me(and just me) I have to make a distinction between

> the " disease " of the person and the intrinsic value of the person.

>

> For me, somewhere the anger-hurt had to stop, whether in my

parent's

> heart, or mine. I can point fingers and be angry and certainly

have

> in the past. I have learned from reading these lists, books -

SWOE,

> UBM, etc, that I cannot change the parent's behavior and probably

> will only get the partial acknowledgement and acceptance of

> responsibility that has already been offered. I can only count on

my

> behavior changing. It leaves me only a few choices, among them a

> draconian cutting off the better grandparent relationship to my

> children because of my problems with the other.

>

> It seems to me that I am in the drivers seat with my own children,

> and can modify the effects of the behavior, particulary since it

is

> not the same as what I experienced. Some BPs can relate

differently

> to different people and to different familial relationships. Being

> able to send a grandchild home rather than live with them 24/7 is

a

> different environment that worked better for my parent. We had no

> problems with this, no demeaning of the granchildren. The

grandparent

> had advanced, and we, knowing when it was enough, took the

children

> home when we knew it was time. It's amazing how good you get at

> knowing when it's time to leave.

>

> There is a certain amount of light walking on eggshells here, but

the

> alternate is to tell the children that the grandparent can't be

> trusted and then years later have that child establish a

relationship

> with an improved grandparent and wonder what's wrong with me. In

my

> own case that would have been the result because the grandparent

did

> not ever demonstrate the old behavior in front of the grandchild

for

> 20 years. Maybe it's better to have supervised visits and then if

> there is nada behavior the children can be taken home and know

that

> there is a problem?

>

> I also realize that some have nadas/fadas so extreme in their

> behavior that nothing approaching normal is possible. My heart

goes

> out to you. I was lucky to get this far and lose most of that

> anxiety, anger, etc. Our experiences seem to vary widely as KOs

from

> those mildly affected to those emotionally crippled by the

experience.

>

>

>

>

>

> > > > > " Forgive my digression - IS EVERYONE ON THE WTO LISTS SOME

> > KIND

> > > OF

> > > > > ARTISTIC PERSON!!! "

> > > > >

> > > > > My theory is emotional pain leads to art...just my theory,

> > based

> > > on

> > > > observation. After some of my biggest hurts, I have produced

> > some

> > > > wicked good stuff (according to others)---if all is going

well,

> > > not

> > > > so always so easy to tap into those creative juices...

> > > > >

> > > > > And her is something else I have noticed: intelligent

people

> > > always

> > > > question their IQ, sane people always question their minds,

and

> > > > creative people always question their talent...

> > > > >

> > > > > Again, just what I perceive based on my observations and

> > > > experiences.

> > > > >

> > > > > Anyway, I need some advice from you all, here: it's about

> KO's

> > > > having such long ropes...I am always nice to everyone,

always

> > > > polite..well, in the last 5 years, I have have come into

> contact

> > > > with 5 people with some sort of PD...probably BPD or

> > Narcissistic

> > > D

> > > > or Paranoid PD...why do I even give them a chance? I will

say I

> > am

> > > > not surrounded by 'em (like I was in my early mid 20's,

before

> I

> > > had

> > > > a clue) --- do you think I just have a very long rope, or

can't

> > > shake

> > > > the past...I will say once it becomes apparent someone has a

> > > serious

> > > > problems, which to me means they are destructive, I

extricate

> > > myself

> > > > as gracefully as possible...although I always having this

> little

> > > nag

> > > > in my head saying I ought to HELP them....

> > > > >

> > > > > PS: that is why I love this list so much; you'll be

reading

> > > posts,

> > > > and you'll go: " hey, that's right... "

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hi Cha,

> > > >

> > > > I'm confused about the directions of the creative-emotional

> > pain,

> > > > chicken-egg relationship. I wonder sometimes if part of the

> > > problem

> > > > is that we are very sensitive and that leads to some kind of

> > > artistic

> > > > expression as well as a susceptibility to being hurt

> emotionally.

> > > >

> > > > In my own life I went from having a nurturing mom to one who

> was

> > > > stoic. I've noticed from reading this list that different

> > siblings

> > > in

> > > > a family respond in different ways to the family

environment.

> > > Some

> > > > seem to survive OK and some are terribly affected and the

level

> > of

> > > > dysfunction seem to vary widely. I'm guessing that is where

the

> > > FOO

> > > > conficts about what happened in the family get started. Some

> > > > sensitive KOs are devastated and some thick-skinned KOs

don't

> > see

> > > it

> > > > as abnormal. It seems to me that it is reflected here in

two

> > > > different camps, those KOs who can't forgive a parent who

asks

> > for

> > > > forgiveness and and those who can. Of course there are those

> > NPDs

> > > who

> > > > never ask for forgiveness, so it isn't possible. I forgave

my

> > > parent

> > > > when she was ready and it freed me to progress. I guess

> everyone

> > > must

> > > > make their own decision.

> > > >

> > > > About the " long rope " and " although I always having this

little

> > > nag

> > > > in my head saying I ought to HELP them.... " (Sound of a

> > submarine

> > > > diving alarm, shouts of DIVE!, DIVE!) (LOL)

> > > >

> > > > BTDT(Been there, done that). They are looking for someone

who

> > can

> > > > accept their behavior, and we are so caring that we fall

into

> > the

> > > > caretaker role. I know that I am not the kind of person who

can

> > > > ignore their pleas without a suffering conscience and I have

> > > fallen

> > > > into these relationships thinking that I could " help " them.

> > When

> > > I

> > > > finally set out to leave the dangerous relationship their

> > actions

> > > > went from trying to control the situation(while they

believed

> > that

> > > > they could) to attempts to do damage me when they knew that

the

> > > end

> > > > was inevitable.

> > > >

> > > > I have noticed that smart lifeguards use every method that

> > > protects

> > > > themselves before jumping in and swimming within grasping

range

> > of

> > > > the " victim " . And these folks really think they

are " victims "

> > and

> > > are

> > > > so believable that we are in a helping mode before we know

the

> > > truth.

> > > >

> > > > For myself, from now on, I will be throwing life jackets,

life

> > > buoy

> > > > rings, etc, and stay at the other end of the rope until I

know

> > > that

> > > > it's safe. If it isn't going to be safe, I'll hand it to

> someone

> > > else

> > > > who saves lives for a living, or, go on my way.

> > > >

> > > > There's an old saying that, " nice guys finish last " . It

really

> > > isn't

> > > > true because there are very successful people who treat

their

> > > > employees with great respect and kindness and the business

> > > flourishes.

> > > >

> > > > Maybe it should be re-written, " nice guys(gals) who allow

> > > themselves

> > > > to be used by selfish people, finish last " .

> > > >

> > > > I suspect you already have a plan of what to do but just

need

> > > > assurance. Be assured.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > (Looking on Ebay for a used Life Buoy)