Re: Schizophrenia and/or BPD ? Thanks Edith

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/27/04 6:46:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

psyprof@... writes:

getevenpersevere@... wrote:

> THE QUESTION: Is it possible to have BP and schizophrenia together?

Yes, but it would be nice to have an official diagnosis. I've

pasted some stuff below about the DSM axes. Schizophrenia is a

DSM Axis I disorder whereas BPD is an Axis II (personality)

disorder.

Over the years schizophrenia was a wastebasket category. If you

couldn't easily discern the mental illness then it was called

schizophrenia. We know now that ppl with schizophrenia generally

have auditory hallucinations (ie, they hear voices) whereas

other psychotics can have both hallucinations and delusions (ie,

false beliefs).

Historically, BPD was called " Borderline " because those with BPD

sometimes behaved like neurotics (ie, with anxieties) and

sometimes like psychotics (ie, mixed up in time, place, and/or

person). The classification system then included neuroses,

psychoses, mood disorders, and mental retardation. Incidently,

there are some very good medications for schizophrenia today.

And, currently, even some anti-epileptic medications work for

those with BPD.

About the DSM:

<<

BPD was first accepted into the DSM in 1980. The DSM-IV, the

Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th

edition (American Psychiatric Association; Washington, DC) is

referred to as the " bible " of psychiatric diagnosis because it

provides definitions, symptoms and characteristics for mental

disorders recognized by clinicians around the world.

The DSM IV calls for clinicians to evaluate individuals on five

levels or axes. Axis I identifies mental disorders; Axis II

identifies personality disorders and mental retardation. Axis

III identifies relevant physical diseases and conditions. Axis

IV identifies the individual's psychosocial and environmental

issues; and Axis V is used by the clinician to assess an

individual's overall functioning based on the 100-point scale

called the Global Assessment of Functioning (GAF). See below:

Axis I

Adjustment Disorders

Anxiety Disorders

Childhood Disorders

Cognitive Disorders

Dissociative Disorders

Eating Disorders

Factitious Disorders

Impulse Control Disorders

Mood Disorders

Psychotic Disorders

Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders

Sleep Disorders

Somotoform Disorders

Substance-Related Disorders

Axis II

Personality Disorders

Mental Retardation

Axis III

General Medical Conditions

Axis IV

Psychosocial and Environmental Stressors

Axis V

Global Assessment of Functioning

>>

Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) belongs in the Axis II

category, under Personality Disorders.

Within Axis II there are three subdivisions called

Cluster A, Cluster B, and Cluster C, with each cluster

containing three or four diagnoses. BPD falls under Cluster B,

along with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), Histrionic

Personality Disorder (HPD), and Antisocial Personality Disorder

(APD). Although the diagnostic traits differ, there is a

significant degree of overlap. Simplistically, the BPD's core

issue is entanglement/abandonment, the HPD expresses the disorder

by attention-seeking, the APD's mode of expression is by

manipulation, and the NPD by behaviors designed to favorably

impress others in return for N-supply (eg, praise).

Somehow I always kinda knew that having a degree in psychology

would come in handy. *wink*

- Edith

PS. The temperature on my porch hit 103 degrees today. Very

unusual for So California. It was up to 99 degress yesterday but

we're promised cooler weather tomorrow.

Thanks Edith,

Oh Yes...That degree is priceless...and that you give it away to us/me as

your gift...is incredible/kind/loving. Thank you. I've been doing bit of

research but the data is so deep, and I AM so biased. It sounds like my uncle's

ex-wife fell into that schizophrenia 'waste basket'...she did not hallucinate,

but was an N-witch.

I know my mother would benefit from a 'diagnosis', perhaps even treatment,

but it will never happen...unless against her will.

Ummm, 103 you say. Is there a couch on your porch? YOU could diagnose Nada.

I'll instruct UPS to leave the crate on your porch...let her out at your own

risk. {hose her down if she complains about heat} Carol {grinning}

MY BRIEF: NADA PRESENTS ALL OF THE BPD CORE BEHAVIORS - BUT I'VE ALREADY

ADMITTED THAT I AM BIASED { GRIN }

BPD's core issue is entanglement/abandonment, ENMESHED WITH SPLIT 'GOOD

CHILD', REJECTS BOUNDARIES OF SPLIT 'BAD CHILD'.

HPD expresses the disorder by attention-seeking, CREATES DRAMATIC CRISIS,

SELF AS VICTIMIZED

APD's mode of expression is by manipulation, LIE TO BE PERCEIVED AS

IMPORTANT, ADVANCE INTELLECT PERCEPTION, DRAMATIC BODY LANGUAGE

NPD by behaviors designed to favorably impress others in return for N-supply

(eg, praise); GIVES GIFTS, PRAISE, ACCEPTANCE TO COMPLIANT PERSONS/CHILDREN]

Axis I

Adjustment Disorders EXPRESSES DESIRE FOR 'PAST' RELATIONSHIP, REJECTS

COMPROMISES AND CHANGE

Anxiety Disorders PERSISTENT CRYING, HOSTILITY, IMPATIENCE

Childhood Disorders BEHAVIOR HOSTILE, CHAOTIC

Cognitive Disorders SUPERFICIAL COMPREHENSION, GENERALIZES INCORRECTLY

Dissociative Disorders NON AWARENESS OF AFFECT ON OTHERS, MEMORY

LAPSES AND DISTORTIONS

Eating Disorders

Factitious Disorders DESIRE TO MANAGE PROJECTED MENTAL 'DISORDERS' OF

CHILDREN, EXAGGERATE AND MISREPRESENT AS 'NERVOUS BREAKDOWN'

Impulse Control Disorders SPONTANEOUS ORAL RESPONSE, SPENDING

Mood Disorders DEPRESSION ALTERNATING WITH EXTREME EXHIBITIONISTIC

Psychotic Disorders PERSISTENT AGITATION, SUSPICION, PARANOIA

Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders

Sleep Disorders

Somotoform Disorders MISIDENTIFIED HEMORRHOID SURGERY AS COLON CANCER

TO FAMILY, ASSUMES SYMPTOMS OF PHYSICAL ILLNESSES OF OTHERS, HYPOCHONDRIAC

Substance-Related Disorders PAST ADDICTION TO STIMULANT 'YELLOW

JACKET' DURING MIDDLE AGE

Axis II

Personality Disorders NARCISSISTIC, B/W LOGIC, ABANDONMENT FEAR

Mental Retardation

Axis III

General Medical Conditions ACUTE HEART BLOCKAGE, EMPHYSEMA

Axis IV

Psychosocial and Environmental Stressors ALCOHOLIC HUSBAND, INFIDELITY

Axis V

Global Assessment of Functioning

[Guest guest]

Oh, no!! Don't send your nada here. I won't accept her no way,

no how!! I'd send her right back to you.

I think Carol M had a nada-roundup place somewhere (Carol M

lives about 15 miles west of me, near the Pacific Ocean) but the

nada had to pretend they were a lemming or something like that.

<giggle>

- Edith

getevenpersevere@... wrote:

> Thanks Edith,

>

> Oh Yes...That degree is priceless...and that you give it away to us/me as

> your gift...is incredible/kind/loving. Thank you. I've been doing bit of

> research but the data is so deep, and I AM so biased. It sounds like my

uncle's

> ex-wife fell into that schizophrenia 'waste basket'...she did not hallucinate,

> but was an N-witch.

>

> I know my mother would benefit from a 'diagnosis', perhaps even treatment,

> but it will never happen...unless against her will.

>

> Ummm, 103 you say. Is there a couch on your porch? YOU could diagnose Nada.

> I'll instruct UPS to leave the crate on your porch...let her out at your own

> risk. {hose her down if she complains about heat} Carol {grinning}

>

> MY BRIEF: NADA PRESENTS ALL OF THE BPD CORE BEHAVIORS - BUT I'VE ALREADY

> ADMITTED THAT I AM BIASED { GRIN }

>

> BPD's core issue is entanglement/abandonment, ENMESHED WITH SPLIT 'GOOD

> CHILD', REJECTS BOUNDARIES OF SPLIT 'BAD CHILD'.

>

> HPD expresses the disorder by attention-seeking, CREATES DRAMATIC CRISIS,

> SELF AS VICTIMIZED

>

> APD's mode of expression is by manipulation, LIE TO BE PERCEIVED AS

> IMPORTANT, ADVANCE INTELLECT PERCEPTION, DRAMATIC BODY LANGUAGE

>

> NPD by behaviors designed to favorably impress others in return for N-supply

> (eg, praise); GIVES GIFTS, PRAISE, ACCEPTANCE TO COMPLIANT PERSONS/CHILDREN]

>

>

> Axis I

> Adjustment Disorders EXPRESSES DESIRE FOR 'PAST' RELATIONSHIP, REJECTS

> COMPROMISES AND CHANGE

> Anxiety Disorders PERSISTENT CRYING, HOSTILITY, IMPATIENCE

> Childhood Disorders BEHAVIOR HOSTILE, CHAOTIC

> Cognitive Disorders SUPERFICIAL COMPREHENSION, GENERALIZES INCORRECTLY

> Dissociative Disorders NON AWARENESS OF AFFECT ON OTHERS, MEMORY

> LAPSES AND DISTORTIONS

> Eating Disorders

> Factitious Disorders DESIRE TO MANAGE PROJECTED MENTAL 'DISORDERS' OF

> CHILDREN, EXAGGERATE AND MISREPRESENT AS 'NERVOUS BREAKDOWN'

> Impulse Control Disorders SPONTANEOUS ORAL RESPONSE, SPENDING

> Mood Disorders DEPRESSION ALTERNATING WITH EXTREME EXHIBITIONISTIC

> Psychotic Disorders PERSISTENT AGITATION, SUSPICION, PARANOIA

> Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders

> Sleep Disorders

> Somotoform Disorders MISIDENTIFIED HEMORRHOID SURGERY AS COLON CANCER

> TO FAMILY, ASSUMES SYMPTOMS OF PHYSICAL ILLNESSES OF OTHERS, HYPOCHONDRIAC

> Substance-Related Disorders PAST ADDICTION TO STIMULANT 'YELLOW

> JACKET' DURING MIDDLE AGE

> Axis II

> Personality Disorders NARCISSISTIC, B/W LOGIC, ABANDONMENT FEAR

> Mental Retardation

> Axis III

> General Medical Conditions ACUTE HEART BLOCKAGE, EMPHYSEMA

> Axis IV

> Psychosocial and Environmental Stressors ALCOHOLIC HUSBAND, INFIDELITY

> Axis V

> Global Assessment of Functioning

[Guest guest]

Edith,

Wow, You have described a lot of what I have lived with all my life. My

mother has been diagnosed with Paranoid schitzophrenia.

My mother has panic attacks, hears voices, has NPD traits, APD traits, & NPD

traits (around strangers),

I have also noticed episodes of adjustment problems, anxiety problems, she

always had some kind of disorder even as a very young child, cognitive

problems (although I believe that a lot of this was a choice by her to do to

others), eating problems, definitely Impulse control & Wild mood swings

varying minute by minutes a lot, Sleep problems, Alcohol problems.

Sometimes I hear some things that make me doubt that mother is BPD, but when

I put all these things together with her behavior then the confusion makes

sense to me.

The best I can figure is that she has 4 main modes of operation. The " I'm so

helpless " , " The Big con " , " The raging Lunatic " , & finally the " Get out of

my life you GD, MF, SOB, Bas---d you are no good & not worth my time

because you won't put me first over anybody else. This last in usually in

response because I refuse to not have a place to live, Utilities for my

children, & I won't let us starve to death just because she wants BS from

the stores.

Debbie

> Historically, BPD was called " Borderline " because those with BPD

> sometimes behaved like neurotics (ie, with anxieties) and

> sometimes like psychotics (ie, mixed up in time, place, and/or

> person). The classification system then included neuroses,

> psychoses, mood disorders, and mental retardation. Incidently,

> there are some very good medications for schizophrenia today.

> And, currently, even some anti-epileptic medications work for

> those with BPD.

>

> About the DSM:

>

> <<

> BPD was first accepted into the DSM in 1980. The DSM-IV, the

> Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th

> edition (American Psychiatric Association; Washington, DC) is

> referred to as the " bible " of psychiatric diagnosis because it

> provides definitions, symptoms and characteristics for mental

> disorders recognized by clinicians around the world.

>

> The DSM IV calls for clinicians to evaluate individuals on five

> levels or axes. Axis I identifies mental disorders; Axis II

> identifies personality disorders and mental retardation. Axis

> III identifies relevant physical diseases and conditions. Axis

> IV identifies the individual's psychosocial and environmental

> issues; and Axis V is used by the clinician to assess an

> individual's overall functioning based on the 100-point scale

> called the Global Assessment of Functioning (GAF). See below:

>

> Axis I

> Adjustment Disorders

> Anxiety Disorders

> Childhood Disorders

> Cognitive Disorders

> Dissociative Disorders

> Eating Disorders

> Factitious Disorders

> Impulse Control Disorders

> Mood Disorders

> Psychotic Disorders

> Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders

> Sleep Disorders

> Somotoform Disorders

> Substance-Related Disorders

> Axis II

> Personality Disorders

> Mental Retardation

> Axis III

> General Medical Conditions

> Axis IV

> Psychosocial and Environmental Stressors

> Axis V

> Global Assessment of Functioning

> >>

>

> Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) belongs in the Axis II

> category, under Personality Disorders.

>

> Within Axis II there are three subdivisions called

> Cluster A, Cluster B, and Cluster C, with each cluster

> containing three or four diagnoses. BPD falls under Cluster B,

> along with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD), Histrionic

> Personality Disorder (HPD), and Antisocial Personality Disorder

> (APD). Although the diagnostic traits differ, there is a

> significant degree of overlap. Simplistically, the BPD's core

> issue is entanglement/abandonment, the HPD expresses the disorder

> by attention-seeking, the APD's mode of expression is by

> manipulation, and the NPD by behaviors designed to favorably

> impress others in return for N-supply (eg, praise).

>

> Somehow I always kinda knew that having a degree in psychology

> would come in handy. *wink*

>

> - Edith

>

> PS. The temperature on my porch hit 103 degrees today. Very

> unusual for So California. It was up to 99 degress yesterday but

> we're promised cooler weather tomorrow.

>

>

>

>

> Thanks Edith,

>

> Oh Yes...That degree is priceless...and that you give it away to us/me as

> your gift...is incredible/kind/loving. Thank you. I've been doing bit of

> research but the data is so deep, and I AM so biased. It sounds like my

uncle's

> ex-wife fell into that schizophrenia 'waste basket'...she did not

hallucinate,

> but was an N-witch.

>

> I know my mother would benefit from a 'diagnosis', perhaps even treatment,

> but it will never happen...unless against her will.

>

> Ummm, 103 you say. Is there a couch on your porch? YOU could diagnose

Nada.

> I'll instruct UPS to leave the crate on your porch...let her out at your

own

> risk. {hose her down if she complains about heat} Carol {grinning}

>

> MY BRIEF: NADA PRESENTS ALL OF THE BPD CORE BEHAVIORS - BUT I'VE ALREADY

> ADMITTED THAT I AM BIASED { GRIN }

>

> BPD's core issue is entanglement/abandonment, ENMESHED WITH SPLIT 'GOOD

> CHILD', REJECTS BOUNDARIES OF SPLIT 'BAD CHILD'.

>

> HPD expresses the disorder by attention-seeking, CREATES DRAMATIC CRISIS,

> SELF AS VICTIMIZED

>

> APD's mode of expression is by manipulation, LIE TO BE PERCEIVED AS

> IMPORTANT, ADVANCE INTELLECT PERCEPTION, DRAMATIC BODY LANGUAGE

>

> NPD by behaviors designed to favorably impress others in return for

N-supply

> (eg, praise); GIVES GIFTS, PRAISE, ACCEPTANCE TO COMPLIANT

PERSONS/CHILDREN]

>

>

> Axis I

> Adjustment Disorders EXPRESSES DESIRE FOR 'PAST' RELATIONSHIP,

REJECTS

> COMPROMISES AND CHANGE

> Anxiety Disorders PERSISTENT CRYING, HOSTILITY, IMPATIENCE

> Childhood Disorders BEHAVIOR HOSTILE, CHAOTIC

> Cognitive Disorders SUPERFICIAL COMPREHENSION, GENERALIZES

INCORRECTLY

> Dissociative Disorders NON AWARENESS OF AFFECT ON OTHERS, MEMORY

> LAPSES AND DISTORTIONS

> Eating Disorders

> Factitious Disorders DESIRE TO MANAGE PROJECTED MENTAL 'DISORDERS'

OF

> CHILDREN, EXAGGERATE AND MISREPRESENT AS 'NERVOUS BREAKDOWN'

> Impulse Control Disorders SPONTANEOUS ORAL RESPONSE, SPENDING

> Mood Disorders DEPRESSION ALTERNATING WITH EXTREME EXHIBITIONISTIC

> Psychotic Disorders PERSISTENT AGITATION, SUSPICION, PARANOIA

> Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders

> Sleep Disorders

> Somotoform Disorders MISIDENTIFIED HEMORRHOID SURGERY AS COLON

CANCER

> TO FAMILY, ASSUMES SYMPTOMS OF PHYSICAL ILLNESSES OF OTHERS,

HYPOCHONDRIAC

> Substance-Related Disorders PAST ADDICTION TO STIMULANT 'YELLOW

> JACKET' DURING MIDDLE AGE

> Axis II

> Personality Disorders NARCISSISTIC, B/W LOGIC, ABANDONMENT FEAR

> Mental Retardation

> Axis III

> General Medical Conditions ACUTE HEART BLOCKAGE, EMPHYSEMA

> Axis IV

> Psychosocial and Environmental Stressors ALCOHOLIC HUSBAND,

INFIDELITY

> Axis V

> Global Assessment of Functioning

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Debbie,

What a role model you've had for a " mother " -- ie, an Axis I

paranoid schizophrenic with Axis II multiple PD traits!! Yikes!

<shaking my head>

- Edith

Deborah Kovak wrote:

> Edith,

> Wow, You have described a lot of what I have lived with all my life. My

> mother has been diagnosed with Paranoid schitzophrenia.

> My mother has panic attacks, hears voices, has NPD traits, APD traits, & NPD

> traits (around strangers),

> I have also noticed episodes of adjustment problems, anxiety problems, she

> always had some kind of disorder even as a very young child, cognitive

> problems (although I believe that a lot of this was a choice by her to do to

> others), eating problems, definitely Impulse control & Wild mood swings

> varying minute by minutes a lot, Sleep problems, Alcohol problems.

> Sometimes I hear some things that make me doubt that mother is BPD, but when

> I put all these things together with her behavior then the confusion makes

> sense to me.

> The best I can figure is that she has 4 main modes of operation. The " I'm so

> helpless " , " The Big con " , " The raging Lunatic " , & finally the " Get out of

> my life you GD, MF, SOB, Bas---d you are no good & not worth my time

> because you won't put me first over anybody else. This last in usually in

> response because I refuse to not have a place to live, Utilities for my

> children, & I won't let us starve to death just because she wants BS from

> the stores.

> Debbie

>

>

>>Historically, BPD was called " Borderline " because those with BPD

>>sometimes behaved like neurotics (ie, with anxieties) and

>>sometimes like psychotics (ie, mixed up in time, place, and/or

>>person). The classification system then included neuroses,

<snip, snip>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/27/04 9:51:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

psyprof@... writes:

Oh, no!! Don't send your nada here. I won't accept her no way,

no how!! I'd send her right back to you.

I think Carol M had a nada-roundup place somewhere (Carol M

lives about 15 miles west of me, near the Pacific Ocean) but the

nada had to pretend they were a lemming or something like that.

<giggle>

Can a helicopter lower a crate there? Postage on me...giggle...Carol