Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Ok - now I need someone to explain to me - how does a KO clearly know they are not a BP themselves? How do you know it's just fleas and not BPD ? Theresa > > At the end of chapter 3 of SWOE (p 70) is a section titled " A Childlike > World View " . We read there that the BP's thinking patterns mimic > developmental stages in children. These include splitting, object > constancy problems, abandonment/engulfment issues, identity issues, > narcissistic demands, seeming lack of empathy and seeming manipulation. > > According to those who study human development, people normally develop > in many ways during their growing-up years. People develop PHYSICALLY > (they get bigger and taller) and INTELLECTUALLY (they get smarter by > acquiring more information). > > People also develop COGNITIVELY (information processing, thinking, > understanding) and EMOTIONALLY (stable moods and feelings). BPD is > recognized as both a COGNITIVE (ie, thinking) and an EMOTIONAL (ie, > feeling) disorder. Individuals who have BPD or BPD traits can be lovable > and a lot of fun to be around but they can also be INTENSE and their > lives chaotic! > > COGNITION is the process that weaves strands of memory, perception and > judgment into coherent thoughts. To understand the *cognitive* aspects > of BPD, one can think of BPs as actors or actresses wearing masks. Like > a chameleon, BPs can mirror and act like whomever they're with. And, BPs > can wear a different mask for each person they interact with, including > their children. > > Cognitively, the BP's world is not always based on the same *logic* as > the NonBP's. The BP's brain is based on BPD logic. To understand a BP, > the NonBP must learn to think like a BP. Information that goes in, > around, and out of the BP's brain can pass through the BP's 'filters' > and end up with a 'twisty' on it. This happens especially when the BP is > stressed. If the BP 'goes off' (ie, rages) then s/he probably won't > remember later what s/he did or said because BPs tend to *dissociate* > under stress. > > One way to understand the EMOTIONAL aspects of adult borderlines is to > think of the BP as an emotional child, between a few months and 2-3 > years of age, housed in a full-sized adult body. The sun rises and sets > on 2-year-olds. They don't play together. And, lacking language skills > and unwilling to share their toys, two-year-olds resort to hitting > and/or biting each other (ie, 'acting out') or they hit and/or bite > themselves (ie, self-injure/'acting in'). Later, as the BP acquires > language skills, this is reflected in the BP's verbal emotional abuse > and/or self-injury. > > *Emotionally* the BP's mood tends toward the negative and to be rapidly > unpredictable with ups and down while, at the same time, the BP needs to > feel they are " in control " - ie, that their world is predictable. > Meanwhile, the BP's mood can determine what the BP believes to be the > facts (see SWOE, p 56). The problem here is, because one of the BP's > greatest fears is they'll lose control, BPs tend to *overcontrol*. This > is particularly evident during stressful times, such as during unplanned > events and holiday get-togethers. > > The BP's world can also be a tipsy-turvy world because of an > accompanying mood disorder. The mood disorder that occurs most often in > BPs is Bipolar Disorder where the mood cycles slowly over days, weeks or > months from depressed to manic and back. The cycle then repeats. > > - Edith > Gal Friday / WelcomeToOz Family of NonBP Email Support Groups > > > Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner > " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to: > http://www.BPDCentral.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Ok - now I need someone to explain to me - how does a KO clearly know they are not a BP themselves? How do you know it's just fleas and not BPD ? Theresa > > At the end of chapter 3 of SWOE (p 70) is a section titled " A Childlike > World View " . We read there that the BP's thinking patterns mimic > developmental stages in children. These include splitting, object > constancy problems, abandonment/engulfment issues, identity issues, > narcissistic demands, seeming lack of empathy and seeming manipulation. > > According to those who study human development, people normally develop > in many ways during their growing-up years. People develop PHYSICALLY > (they get bigger and taller) and INTELLECTUALLY (they get smarter by > acquiring more information). > > People also develop COGNITIVELY (information processing, thinking, > understanding) and EMOTIONALLY (stable moods and feelings). BPD is > recognized as both a COGNITIVE (ie, thinking) and an EMOTIONAL (ie, > feeling) disorder. Individuals who have BPD or BPD traits can be lovable > and a lot of fun to be around but they can also be INTENSE and their > lives chaotic! > > COGNITION is the process that weaves strands of memory, perception and > judgment into coherent thoughts. To understand the *cognitive* aspects > of BPD, one can think of BPs as actors or actresses wearing masks. Like > a chameleon, BPs can mirror and act like whomever they're with. And, BPs > can wear a different mask for each person they interact with, including > their children. > > Cognitively, the BP's world is not always based on the same *logic* as > the NonBP's. The BP's brain is based on BPD logic. To understand a BP, > the NonBP must learn to think like a BP. Information that goes in, > around, and out of the BP's brain can pass through the BP's 'filters' > and end up with a 'twisty' on it. This happens especially when the BP is > stressed. If the BP 'goes off' (ie, rages) then s/he probably won't > remember later what s/he did or said because BPs tend to *dissociate* > under stress. > > One way to understand the EMOTIONAL aspects of adult borderlines is to > think of the BP as an emotional child, between a few months and 2-3 > years of age, housed in a full-sized adult body. The sun rises and sets > on 2-year-olds. They don't play together. And, lacking language skills > and unwilling to share their toys, two-year-olds resort to hitting > and/or biting each other (ie, 'acting out') or they hit and/or bite > themselves (ie, self-injure/'acting in'). Later, as the BP acquires > language skills, this is reflected in the BP's verbal emotional abuse > and/or self-injury. > > *Emotionally* the BP's mood tends toward the negative and to be rapidly > unpredictable with ups and down while, at the same time, the BP needs to > feel they are " in control " - ie, that their world is predictable. > Meanwhile, the BP's mood can determine what the BP believes to be the > facts (see SWOE, p 56). The problem here is, because one of the BP's > greatest fears is they'll lose control, BPs tend to *overcontrol*. This > is particularly evident during stressful times, such as during unplanned > events and holiday get-togethers. > > The BP's world can also be a tipsy-turvy world because of an > accompanying mood disorder. The mood disorder that occurs most often in > BPs is Bipolar Disorder where the mood cycles slowly over days, weeks or > months from depressed to manic and back. The cycle then repeats. > > - Edith > Gal Friday / WelcomeToOz Family of NonBP Email Support Groups > > > Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner > " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to: > http://www.BPDCentral.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Theresa Vidos wrote: > ... how does a KO clearly know > they are not a BP themselves? How do you know it's just fleas and > not BPD ? Hi Theresa, Just ask us KOs. We'll tell you if we're not perfect. But BPs, on the other hand, know that they're perfect. BPs dump (ie, projection) their imperfections onto others. After learning to recognize them, we KOs can rid ourselves (ie, unlearn) our fleas. - Edith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 Theresa Vidos wrote: > ... how does a KO clearly know > they are not a BP themselves? How do you know it's just fleas and > not BPD ? Hi Theresa, Just ask us KOs. We'll tell you if we're not perfect. But BPs, on the other hand, know that they're perfect. BPs dump (ie, projection) their imperfections onto others. After learning to recognize them, we KOs can rid ourselves (ie, unlearn) our fleas. - Edith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Also, I forgot to add that nada's lack empathy whereas KO have empathy. - Edith ivorysoap76 wrote: > I agree with Edith and have a few cents to add. My nada will " say " > she is not perfect. But that is only a defense head off criticism > and keep her victim status. She says it for effect. I KNOW I'm not > perfect and can name some things and they are the same things that > people who have known me for ten years would say. I don't think Nada > ever named anything, except that she thinks, at a size 10, she's > incredibly fat! A BP's list of " flaws " will be laughably off- > base. " Oh my flaw is that I care too much! " > > Also in telling that I'm not BP, I also go for ability to sympathize > apart from its impact on my audience. Like, I can feel bad, for > someone I don't know, with nobody there to observe how caring I'm > being? Nada " says " sympathetic things but again, its for effect on > an audience. > > Ivory > > >> >> >>>... how does a KO clearly know >>>they are not a BP themselves? How do you know it's just fleas > > and > >>>not BPD ? >> >>Hi Theresa, >> >>Just ask us KOs. We'll tell you if we're not perfect. >> >>But BPs, on the other hand, know that they're perfect. BPs dump > > (ie, > >>projection) their imperfections onto others. >> >>After learning to recognize them, we KOs can rid ourselves (ie, > > unlearn) > >>our fleas. >> >>- Edith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 The empathy thing is right on! My fada can be very empathetic " for show " , if someone is present he wants to like him, or when he thinks it will get him something, generally approval-oriented. And can be very cruel when he does't see anything in it for him. I think this is how we KO's develop self esteem issues...well, one way. Our nadas/fadas are seen by the rest of the world as sympathetic, generous, caring, etc. but that is not the person we see at home, and we certainly were not the recipients of that so- called generosity and caring. Hense, we correlate the lack of generosity and caring offered to us with a lack of worth. Jeanine > >> > >> > >>>... how does a KO clearly know > >>>they are not a BP themselves? How do you know it's just fleas > > > > and > > > >>>not BPD ? > >> > >>Hi Theresa, > >> > >>Just ask us KOs. We'll tell you if we're not perfect. > >> > >>But BPs, on the other hand, know that they're perfect. BPs dump > > > > (ie, > > > >>projection) their imperfections onto others. > >> > >>After learning to recognize them, we KOs can rid ourselves (ie, > > > > unlearn) > > > >>our fleas. > >> > >>- Edith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 I think that's what I was trying to go for. I always get sympathy and empathy confused. Ivory > Also, I forgot to add that nada's lack empathy whereas KO have empathy. > > - Edith > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Hmm. I can say I find it difficult to say " sorry " when I lose my temper like to my daughter, but I usually say something else instead like cuddle her a little and say " I love you " Now my nada NEVER did that. My sister felt hated because nada would yell at her, send her to her room, and never say she loved her afterwards or sorry. Now I do have plenty of walls built up, I can seem to sometimes lack empathy. I think I still have empathy, though. I know I don't do stuff like flip into a psycho episode and not remember later Theresa > > Also, I forgot to add that nada's lack empathy whereas KO have empathy. > > - Edith > > ivorysoap76 wrote: > > > I agree with Edith and have a few cents to add. My nada will " say " > > she is not perfect. But that is only a defense head off criticism > > and keep her victim status. She says it for effect. I KNOW I'm not > > perfect and can name some things and they are the same things that > > people who have known me for ten years would say. I don't think Nada > > ever named anything, except that she thinks, at a size 10, she's > > incredibly fat! A BP's list of " flaws " will be laughably off- > > base. " Oh my flaw is that I care too much! " > > > > Also in telling that I'm not BP, I also go for ability to sympathize > > apart from its impact on my audience. Like, I can feel bad, for > > someone I don't know, with nobody there to observe how caring I'm > > being? Nada " says " sympathetic things but again, its for effect on > > an audience. > > > > Ivory > > > > > >> > >> > >>>... how does a KO clearly know > >>>they are not a BP themselves? How do you know it's just fleas > > > > and > > > >>>not BPD ? > >> > >>Hi Theresa, > >> > >>Just ask us KOs. We'll tell you if we're not perfect. > >> > >>But BPs, on the other hand, know that they're perfect. BPs dump > > > > (ie, > > > >>projection) their imperfections onto others. > >> > >>After learning to recognize them, we KOs can rid ourselves (ie, > > > > unlearn) > > > >>our fleas. > >> > >>- Edith > > > Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner > " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to: > http://www.BPDCentral.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 I think you hit in on the head about the walls. I feel like KO's can sometimes have trouble with empathy, but its not because we CAN'T, like nadas. Empathizing in a household of crazy people for 17 years is horrifying, confusing, and exhausting. A KO might shy away or " turn it off " for a while out of self-protection, but that's not the same thing as not having it. Ivory > Hmm. I can say I find it difficult to say " sorry " when I lose my > temper like to my daughter, but I usually say something else instead > like cuddle her a little and say " I love you " Now my nada NEVER did > that. My sister felt hated because nada would yell at her, send her > to her room, and never say she loved her afterwards or sorry. > > Now I do have plenty of walls built up, I can seem to sometimes lack > empathy. I think I still have empathy, though. I know I don't do > stuff like flip into a psycho episode and not remember later > > Theresa > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 I think there is a big difference between it being difficult for you to say you are sorry and never saying you are sorry. You know you should say " I'm sorry " , whereas BP's honestly don't believe they have done anything or said anything wrong, so why should they apologize? My fada has never said he was sorry to me or anyone in the family about anything, that I know of. Its been the one common thread that has allowed extended family members to realize he has a problem. I have a real need to be right alot of the time, I have control issues. I think this is an inevitable flea in defense of never hearing " I'm sorry " or a truthful " I love you " from our nadas/fadas. Jeanine > > >> > > >> > > >>>... how does a KO clearly know > > >>>they are not a BP themselves? How do you know it's just fleas > > > > > > and > > > > > >>>not BPD ? > > >> > > >>Hi Theresa, > > >> > > >>Just ask us KOs. We'll tell you if we're not perfect. > > >> > > >>But BPs, on the other hand, know that they're perfect. BPs dump > > > > > > (ie, > > > > > >>projection) their imperfections onto others. > > >> > > >>After learning to recognize them, we KOs can rid ourselves (ie, > > > > > > unlearn) > > > > > >>our fleas. > > >> > > >>- Edith > > > > > > Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner > > " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to: > > http://www.BPDCentral.com > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 I think there is a big difference between it being difficult for you to say you are sorry and never saying you are sorry. You know you should say " I'm sorry " , whereas BP's honestly don't believe they have done anything or said anything wrong, so why should they apologize? My fada has never said he was sorry to me or anyone in the family about anything, that I know of. Its been the one common thread that has allowed extended family members to realize he has a problem. I have a real need to be right alot of the time, I have control issues. I think this is an inevitable flea in defense of never hearing " I'm sorry " or a truthful " I love you " from our nadas/fadas. Jeanine > > >> > > >> > > >>>... how does a KO clearly know > > >>>they are not a BP themselves? How do you know it's just fleas > > > > > > and > > > > > >>>not BPD ? > > >> > > >>Hi Theresa, > > >> > > >>Just ask us KOs. We'll tell you if we're not perfect. > > >> > > >>But BPs, on the other hand, know that they're perfect. BPs dump > > > > > > (ie, > > > > > >>projection) their imperfections onto others. > > >> > > >>After learning to recognize them, we KOs can rid ourselves (ie, > > > > > > unlearn) > > > > > >>our fleas. > > >> > > >>- Edith > > > > > > Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner > > " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to: > > http://www.BPDCentral.com > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 People get angry. People should be allowed to get angry. But when you calm down and are able to talk things over calmly there's forgiveness and sincerely being sorry or apologetic even if the words are not used. This never happens w/ Nada. Nada maintains air of superiority because I'm not allowed to feel hurt or angry over anything and she won't forgive even when I've apologized over something to me that's trivial in comparison to the abuse suffered because of her unwillingness to allow for another person's perception of circumstance and her righteousness in any given situation. The eternal lose-lose situation. Ugh!!!!!! Maybe all of this is a projection of thier lack of empathy. However, when I was split good I felt like she was empathetic. Can that be explained? cntbreathe > > >> > > >> > > >>>... how does a KO clearly know > > >>>they are not a BP themselves? How do you know it's just fleas > > > > > > and > > > > > >>>not BPD ? > > >> > > >>Hi Theresa, > > >> > > >>Just ask us KOs. We'll tell you if we're not perfect. > > >> > > >>But BPs, on the other hand, know that they're perfect. BPs dump > > > > > > (ie, > > > > > >>projection) their imperfections onto others. > > >> > > >>After learning to recognize them, we KOs can rid ourselves (ie, > > > > > > unlearn) > > > > > >>our fleas. > > >> > > >>- Edith > > > > > > Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner > > " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to: > > http://www.BPDCentral.com > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 And KOs numb out, emotionally. - Edith ivorysoap76 wrote: > > I think you hit in on the head about the walls. I feel like KO's can > sometimes have trouble with empathy, but its not because we CAN'T, > like nadas. Empathizing in a household of crazy people for 17 years > is horrifying, confusing, and exhausting. A KO might shy away > or " turn it off " for a while out of self-protection, but that's not > the same thing as not having it. > > Ivory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 My favorite sayings from my nada.... " Everyone makes mistakes " (which means - no matter what I did, it is okay because everyone makes mistakes), " We don't have to agree on everything " (but if you disagree with me I will get back at you some way or another), " All mothers and daughters have their problems " (and my calling you crazy all the time and telling you that you were not good enough to love was just one of those problems), and the cover all bases one - " We can't change what happened in the past " (so just get over it and get back into my lala world so I don't have to deal with any reality). Sylvia > > I agree with Edith and have a few cents to add. My nada will " say " > she is not perfect. But that is only a defense head off criticism > and keep her victim status. She says it for effect. I KNOW I'm not > perfect and can name some things and they are the same things that > people who have known me for ten years would say. I don't think Nada > ever named anything, except that she thinks, at a size 10, she's > incredibly fat! A BP's list of " flaws " will be laughably off- > base. " Oh my flaw is that I care too much! " > > Also in telling that I'm not BP, I also go for ability to sympathize > apart from its impact on my audience. Like, I can feel bad, for > someone I don't know, with nobody there to observe how caring I'm > being? Nada " says " sympathetic things but again, its for effect on > an audience. > > Ivory > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Actually I think I might be the only person my mother has said she is sorry too. After cutting my oldest sister out of our lives for years - she finally wrote a letter to " make ammends. " But my sister said there was no apology - just a " I'm willing to forgive you. " Of course- that was years ago - and there is a lot of water OVER that bridge. But anyway - last week, I called my mother (well - I called my parents and my mother always answers the phone and you're not supposed to ask for my father unless your car is broke down or something).. So I called and was telling her when my other sister and I would be getting in from Oklahoma - and that we would be staying somewhere else for the night so we wouldn't disturb them at 3 AM - and my mother just said " Whatever.. " and then made a remark about guessing she would need to rescedule her colonscopy. Maybe what made her realize how crude she was - was that I just said " What? " and she repeated her " Whatever! " Well - a few minutes later she called me back and apologized. She said she was sorry, but that things had been real rough there. I called my other sister and told her... " Guess what>..mom APOLOGIZED! " She was shocked! And the other day - I went over and told my mother I was sorry. I did not say I was wrong either. I merely said I was sorry. And she responded that she was sorry. Yet - when I talked to my father, he said my mother has never admitted she was wrong, or apologized for anything. So maybe I am the only person my mother has ever said she was sorry to... and that has only been a couple times - in the last couple of weeks. Actually, I don't think apologies are too abundant from either direction. I'm not sure why. I guess first off is that we usually make sure not to cross my mother. We dance pretty well. Secondly, the outright attacks like she pulled the other day have become pretty rare. She keeps a lot of her BPness at the level of withdrawing, being " really chilly " , sneaking attacks in as side comments, trashing whoever is NOT present in the conversation...etc.. And when she does lose it and have a semi-outburst, she usually recovers enough to pretend it didn't happen - and we run for cover and wait until we get the green light to pretend it didn't happen to. So to apologize, even by us, is usually to re-open the wound. It's hard to apologize for something everyone is pretending didn't happen. Because to apologize is to act as if it did happen, and therefore make it real. EGADS! NOT THAT!!!! Because that would make her reaction to whatever it was real too. So to say " I'm sorry I upset you " would be HEARD as " YOU were upset. " ...which would REALLY upset her that we noticed that she was. It would just re-open the whole thing that we are pretending didn't happen. So I guess that is why even WE don't usually apologize - the old " sleeping dog " thing. Free > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>>... how does a KO clearly know > > > >>>they are not a BP themselves? How do you know it's just > fleas > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > >>>not BPD ? > > > >> > > > >>Hi Theresa, > > > >> > > > >>Just ask us KOs. We'll tell you if we're not perfect. > > > >> > > > >>But BPs, on the other hand, know that they're perfect. BPs dump > > > > > > > > (ie, > > > > > > > >>projection) their imperfections onto others. > > > >> > > > >>After learning to recognize them, we KOs can rid ourselves (ie, > > > > > > > > unlearn) > > > > > > > >>our fleas. > > > >> > > > >>- Edith > > > > > > > > > Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner > > > " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be > ordered via 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of > contents, go to: > > > http://www.BPDCentral.com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Ahhhh..The non-forgiveness thing...Now I see that as BP. Even as I smoothed things over with my mother yesterday - and she actually WAS real with me for a few moments there..and let me tell you I did feel a lot of compassion for her...when she was sobbing (which is EXTREMELY unusual for her to display that much vulnerability) and saying " I tried so hard and it wasn't good enough. " And things are pretty " normal " now as normal goes.. but I also know that the " hole " is always there. We might only revisit it from time to time. We may never revisit it again. I don't know. But I know that sometime - from out of left field, it may appear again - What *I* " did " to her when my sister died. I understand that now. And I don't think I ever fully understood that before...and therefore would be totally frustrated if " things " come back up as real " as the day they occured. So hopefully it won't throw me as much if it does occur...because I understand it more. On the empathy thing...Hmmmm Just some thoughts. I was thinking about my mother's reaction to my sister's death...and my mother's statement that my sister died before she (my sister) could " make up. " ..kind of meaning she died before she could apologize to our mother and get her forgiveness (conditional, of course.) ***This was one of those cases where we couldn't pretend it didn't happen. My sister wrote a letter to my father and said things about my mother that were true. (gulp!) Anyway.. My other sister remarked that our mother had a lot to deal with because Deb died before mom made her peace with her - and now she couldn't make her peace. But I was just thinking today.. how my perception is my mother lived vicariously through my oldest sister. Deb was her first child - and her second chance to have the life she wanted. Every time Deb " messed up " she messed up my mother's vicarious life. Then my mother started projecting all her shadow stuff on Deb. Deb even told me mom accused her of having sex with guys that SHE (my mother) flirted with years ago. So if my mother projected all her crap on Deb - and Deb died without my mother getting to make peace with all of her own crap.... Eek. Her projected " bad self " died before it could be " redeemed. " !!!Hey! I'm open to feedback on this interpretation!!! Am I being too analytical here? Back to the point though.... My thoughts are my mother could NOT empathize with Deb because she had projected her " bad " self onto her. She couldn't empathize with that. But she CAN empathize a lot with my middle sister - because she is the golden child. Yeah...she can feel for the " good child " and possibly even her projected good traits. Also - I noticed - she WAS civil - and even nice to my nephew (my sister's son who surfaced at the funeral). She even hugged him once at the funeral. I think it was real empathy... because when she was sobbing yesterday she even said " I felt so sorry for that poor boy, finding his mother and losing her at the same time. " (My mother denies they were in contact through the years because it is something my sister didn't talk to her about.) But I think that is also why she raged about him later. SHe actually FELT sorry for him...and got a GLIMPSE of facing herself about HER ROLE in the whole situation (i.e. never acknowledging him as a grandchild) and she could NOT face what her empathy brought out - so she had to project it back onto him and anyone who had anything to do with him coming to the funeral. So from my view empathy is very hard for the BP - and even when they DO feel it - it can backfire BIG TIME! Free > > People get angry. People should be allowed to get angry. But when > you calm down and are able to talk things over calmly there's > forgiveness and sincerely being sorry or apologetic even if the words > are not used. This never happens w/ Nada. Nada maintains air of > superiority because I'm not allowed to feel hurt or angry over > anything and she won't forgive even when I've apologized over > something to me that's trivial in comparison to the abuse suffered > because of her unwillingness to allow for another person's perception > of circumstance and her righteousness in any given situation. The > eternal lose-lose situation. Ugh!!!!!! Maybe all of this is a > projection of thier lack of empathy. However, when I was split good > I felt like she was empathetic. Can that be explained? > cntbreathe > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Crazyland, Yep, those Nada's forget what just happened, and/or they re-write the history. If I had a dime for every time my Nada said, " I DID NOT say/do that " , well, I would be rich. LOL! It just works for them to make it their own personal history to suit their needs, or ignore their abuse. That's how they make is think we are nutso too...because the reality you experienced is not what Nada choses to remember! BTW, your online name makes me chuckle because I think of the game " Candyland " but instead filled with crazy Nada twists and turns. Complete with spaces that read, " You have entered the FOG, go back 5 years! " and " Hoovered again- move back 2 spaces " and " Succesful Boundary Set- jump ahead 5! " . Di. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Crazyland, Yep, those Nada's forget what just happened, and/or they re-write the history. If I had a dime for every time my Nada said, " I DID NOT say/do that " , well, I would be rich. LOL! It just works for them to make it their own personal history to suit their needs, or ignore their abuse. That's how they make is think we are nutso too...because the reality you experienced is not what Nada choses to remember! BTW, your online name makes me chuckle because I think of the game " Candyland " but instead filled with crazy Nada twists and turns. Complete with spaces that read, " You have entered the FOG, go back 5 years! " and " Hoovered again- move back 2 spaces " and " Succesful Boundary Set- jump ahead 5! " . Di. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 12, 2005 Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Crazyland, Yep, those Nada's forget what just happened, and/or they re-write the history. If I had a dime for every time my Nada said, " I DID NOT say/do that " , well, I would be rich. LOL! It just works for them to make it their own personal history to suit their needs, or ignore their abuse. That's how they make is think we are nutso too...because the reality you experienced is not what Nada choses to remember! BTW, your online name makes me chuckle because I think of the game " Candyland " but instead filled with crazy Nada twists and turns. Complete with spaces that read, " You have entered the FOG, go back 5 years! " and " Hoovered again- move back 2 spaces " and " Succesful Boundary Set- jump ahead 5! " . Di. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 > > My fada has never said he was sorry to me or anyone in the family > about anything, that I know of. Its been the one common thread that has allowed extended family members to realize he has a problem. I don't think my parents ever apologized either. I never noticed. I don't think it ever occurred to me that they might be wrong about something. My hubby noticed it though. My dad accidentally ruined some clothes of mine with bleach...hubby noticed that dad never apologized. I'd never seen it pointed out before. Hmmmm.... > I have a real need to be right alot of the time, I have control > issues. I think this is an inevitable flea in defense of never > hearing " I'm sorry " or a truthful " I love you " from our nadas/fadas. I display some arguementative behavior but I don't really give two hoots about being right. I just have a flea about being heard and believed. My behavior in conversation can sometimes look like I'm trying to be right cause I'll fight for my position if I feel disregarded. But I think the flea is that I'm fighting to be treated like a person, which would be worthy of being listened to right or wrong, as opposed to an object, like an encyclopedia to be used and ignored or criticized if incorrect. I don't mind being wrong. I mind being treated like an underling. AND with nada and dad(np), feelings weren't really allowed unless they agreed with them. So some of my " fighting to be right " is really fighting for my version of events so that I would have the " right " to my feelings. As long as I can remember that my feelings are ALL mine regardless of the events, I don't feel the urge to argue my point. I actually feel powerful keeping the information to myself. Oh, and about those weird " i love you " s....I hate those. They weren't " untruthful " my house as much as a way to say " Am I an okay person? " Really gross coming from your parents. Ivory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 > we certainly were not the recipients of that so- > called generosity and caring. Unless she needed a dose of ego from me. She did it to GET my response. Ewwwwww, dirty. >Hense, we correlate the lack of >generosity and caring offered to us with a lack of worth. Totally...hmmm...I think we are right to connect those things, but wrong to buy the message. Lack of kindness DIRECTLY related to someone not valuing someone else! But that doesn't mean they are right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 Hi Ivory, I'm soooo glad you wrote this. The I love you's I find gross too. It's so hard to believe them when the actions just don't match the words. I dread hearing them because I don't believe that people who really loved you would treat you like this. I'd rather not hear I love you. I'd rather be treated with respect and consideration and caring. Also, keeping stuff to myself. It's so sad because there are so many positive things I never share with Nada or NP dad because I just don't want them ruined. Than I feel bad, I feel bad for them but Nada doesn't want to hear the good things anyway. Being positive around her is just asking for trouble! cntbreathe > > > Oh, and about those weird " i love you " s....I hate those. They > weren't " untruthful " my house as much as a way to say " Am I an okay > person? " Really gross coming from your parents. > > Ivory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 I heard my nada talking to a friend of hers a few months back. Not a 'great' friend, but one she works with. Well, I think in about 5 minutes of the conversation, my nada had said " Oh, I love you... I just love you so much... " about 4 times!!! And very dramatic and fakey.... Through therapy, and my recent revelation that she HAS BPD, I now know why I will not believe or take a compliment to be true from anyone. My husband gets so irritated when he tells me I look good, or how he feels, I kind of blow it off, or point out some 'flaw' he might have missed. Certainly, NO ONE could REALLY love me. Because I heard fake " I love yous, " And fake " You are beautifuls " and fake " You are such a wonderful daughter " so many times, that I don't believe it when it is said in truth! After nada says all those fakey nice things, and you piss her off, you are the devil child, but you think if the precious nice things she said earlier were true, how could you go down hill so fast and fall from her grace? Then she likes you again, and tells you all those nice things, and you recall just being in her pit of hell, and think, there is no way she was ever telling me the truth!! AHHHHH!!!! And yes, sharing is extremely difficult. Opeing up your heart to someone, only to have it trampled on is one thing. But having your innermost thoughts and feelings crushed by your own mom or dad.. whew. Thats a tough pill to swallow. Trust issues galore.... KC > > > > > > > Oh, and about those weird " i love you " s....I hate those. They > > weren't " untruthful " my house as much as a way to say " Am I an okay > > person? " Really gross coming from your parents. > > > > Ivory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 Oh..I hear you on this one. If I am trying to talk about how I feel, or what I think, or what my experience is...why do people have the need to try to make me " wrong " or not hear me. Must a person be " right " to deserve being heard? I used to be in a relationship where we were constantly arguing over my " right to be heard and listened to. " I felt drained and miserable much of the time. I'm much happier in my life now. To me, even being thought " wrong " is better than being dismissed. Free > I display some arguementative behavior but I don't really give two > hoots about being right. I just have a flea about being heard and > believed. My behavior in conversation can sometimes look like I'm > trying to be right cause I'll fight for my position if I feel > disregarded. But I think the flea is that I'm fighting to be treated > like a person, which would be worthy of being listened to right or > wrong, as opposed to an object, like an encyclopedia to be used and > ignored or criticized if incorrect. I don't mind being wrong. I mind > being treated like an underling. > > Ivory Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 This reminds me of a quote I heard the other day by Covey - " You can't talk your way out of problems you behaved your way into. " Free I'm soooo glad you wrote this. The I love you's I find gross too. It's so hard to believe them when the actions just don't match the words. I dread hearing them because I don't believe that people who really loved you would treat you like this. I'd rather not hear I love you. I'd rather be treated with respect and consideration and caring. cntbreathe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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