Re: Nada's 'attachment figure' (AF)

[Guest guest]

> (The consequences can be tragic

> if the AF is a child).

Yeah, I was Nada's AF when I was a child. And for the rest of my

life, too.

I don't really care about Nada any more. I am out of the tunnel,

standing by the lamp post. But not all of my body or soul is out of

the tunnel.

- Dan

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I was mine's, too. Last week my therapist said the image of

me that she has is that of a child or young animal sitting by the

body of the dead mother. I've spent 30 years being angry and sad

(well, and drunk, too), but moving on completely is hard.

Because " when she was good she WAS very, very good, but when she was

bad, she was horrid. " It's hard to mother yourself when the imprint

of Nada runs so deep. I'm glad we KOs have each other.

-

> > (The consequences can be tragic

> > if the AF is a child).

>

> Yeah, I was Nada's AF when I was a child. And for the rest of my

> life, too.

>

> I don't really care about Nada any more. I am out of the tunnel,

> standing by the lamp post. But not all of my body or soul is out

of

> the tunnel.

>

> - Dan

[Guest guest]

Hi Edith,

Your post reminds me to what I've read sometimes ago:

1) " hysteria/bpd changes not only in function of the surroundings, to

start with the physician; into the bargain she STIPULATE this

surroundings and drag along this in a unconscious complicity. That's

why it is impossible to study hysteria/bpd as an illness that only

one person should implicate. "

2) " if men do not take into consideration this fundamental discovery,

that hysteria/bpd is a manner of relation, a manner that man can

regret,criticize, can regard as failure, sure, but still a manner of

relation, than condemn men oneself to tenacity in the errors of

former times. "

3) " clear is that -from the moment- that a hysteric/bp is

confronted with more than one person the character of the symptoms

will change. "

4) " certain is that there is a particularly unconscious complicity

necessary for the development of many hysterical/bpd symptems. "

5) " often enough the physician is the ideal accomplice..... " (LOL)

(booklet: L'Hystérique, le sexe et le médecin)

Gerard

> On Ann Lawson's website at www.borderlinemothers.com we

read

> the following about the BP's 'attachment figure' (AF):

>

> " BPD has a pervasive impact on individual, marital, and family

> functioning. Life-threatening situations can result from the

> borderline's impulsivity, dissociative episodes, or rage. Gunderson

> (2001)* explains that when the borderline's attachment figure (AF)

is

> present and supportive, the borderline feels empty and depressed;

when

> the AF is present but not supportive, the borderline feels angry and

> lashes out; when the AF is absent, the borderline feels terrified,

> desperate, paranoid and/or dissociates. (The consequences can be

tragic

> if the AF is a child). "

>

> Ann Lawson wrote the book titled " Understanding The

Borderline

> Mother. "

>

> - Edith

[Guest guest]

Edith,

So am I understanding this right that since I've left nada dear alone completely

and ignored her she's lashing out right now with the car/health negligence? The

other questin this brings to my mind is that can they change AF, like switch

from my dad to me after he died. Which then would explain why she got so muhc

worse after he died. Anything else to do but to run from them?

Thanks

Marie

Edith wrote:

On Ann Lawson's website at www.borderlinemothers.com we read

the following about the BP's 'attachment figure' (AF):

" BPD has a pervasive impact on individual, marital, and family

functioning. Life-threatening situations can result from the

borderline's impulsivity, dissociative episodes, or rage. Gunderson

(2001)* explains that when the borderline's attachment figure (AF) is

present and supportive, the borderline feels empty and depressed; when

the AF is present but not supportive, the borderline feels angry and

lashes out; when the AF is absent, the borderline feels terrified,

desperate, paranoid and/or dissociates. (The consequences can be tragic

if the AF is a child). "

Ann Lawson wrote the book titled " Understanding The Borderline

Mother. "

- Edith

Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner

" Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via

1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to:

http://www.BPDCentral.com

[Guest guest]

Dan wrote:

> I don't really care about Nada any more. I am out of the tunnel,

> standing by the lamp post. But not all of my body or soul is out of

> the tunnel.

Hi Dan,

You've certainly come a long way since you first posted on one of our

WTO lists on July 24, 2002 - 19 months ago. I looked up the date today

because one of the things I'm interested in is how long it takes KOs on

these lists to arrive at the lamp post. The validation and support the

KOs here provide are very healing - along with the info provided by

SWOE, SWOEW, SBP, and UBM. There's fresh coffee in the urn and a box of

Godiva chocolates over there on the table. No need to stand. Pull up a

comfy chair and together we'll watch for other KOs coming down the path.

- Edith

[Guest guest]

proflaf1 wrote:

> Edith,

> So am I understanding this right that since I've left nada dear alone

completely and ignored her she's lashing out right now with the car/health

negligence?

Hi Marie,

Yes, to question #1.

> The other questin this brings to my mind is that can they change AF, like

switch from my dad to me after he died.

Yes, to question #2.

> Which then would explain why she got so muhc worse after he died. Anything

else to do but to run from them?

It depends on one's nada but Lawson (UBM) would certainly say for a KO

to run. Some BPs are higher functioning than others, etc etc etc.

Maybe some of the following that I've been working on lately will help...

Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)

NonBPs should learn *everything* they can about BPD. Stop Walking On

Eggshells (SWOE) by Mason and Kreger and the WTO lists are excellent

places to start. Chs 1-4 of SWOE are about understanding BPD behavior,

chs 5-9 are about taking back control of one's life, and there are

several chapters on special issues plus other goodies in the Appendices.

One can't digest all of SWOE in one sitting. One should plan on reading

SWOE several times and keeping it handy for reference. Also, the Non

needs to have a copy of the SWOE Workbook (SWOEW). For more info about

SWOE and SWOEW go to www.BPDCentral.com .

For the NonBP adult children of BPs there are two other books available

-- Ann Lawson's Understanding The Borderline Mother (2000),

and Roth and Friedman's " Surviving A Borderline Parent " (2003).

BPD is recognized as a complex DSM-IV Axis II mental illness affecting

2% of the general population and over 6 million people in N America. The

core issue of BPD is abandonment/entanglement.

Normally, people develop in many ways during their growing-up years.

People develop PHYSICALLY (they get bigger and taller), they develop

INTELLECTUALLY (they get smarter by acquiring more information), they

develop EMOTIONALLY (ie, stable moods and feelings) and the develop

COGNITIVELY (eg, information processing, thinking, understanding).

BPD is recognized as both an EMOTIONAL (ie, feeling) disorder and a

COGNITIVE (ie, thinking) disorder. BPs can be INTENSE, they tend to lack

empathy, and their lives chaotic!

One way to understand the *emotional* aspects of adult borderlines (BPs)

is to think of them as an emotional child, between a few months and 2

years of age, housed in a full-sized adult body. The sun rises and sets

on 2-year-olds. They don't play together. And, lacking language skills

and unwilling to share, two-year-olds resort to biting and/or hitting

each other over the head with their toys (ie, 'acting out') and/or they

hit and/or bite themselves (ie, self-injure/'acting in'). Adult BPs are

less likely to hit others than are NPDs (ie, narcissists) or AsPDs

(antisocials).

Although there is no 'pure' BPD, according to Sam Vaknin, a

self-acclaimed narcissist, each of the DSM Axis II personality disorders

has its own form of Narcissistic Supply (NS):

* Histrionic (HPD) – Sex, seduction, flirtation, romance, body

* Narcissistic (NPD) – Adulation, admiration

* Borderline (BPD) – Presence (they are terrified of abandonment)

* Antisocial (AsPD) – Money, power, control, fun

To understand the *cognitive* aspects of BPD, one can think of BPs as

actors and actresses wearing a mask. Like a chameleon, BPs act like

whomever they're with and wear a different mask for each person they

meet, including each of their children.

There are differences in chosen and unchosen relationships with a BP. At

the beginning of a NonBP-BPD *CHOSEN* relationship, the mask the BP

wears mirrors the NonBP. The NonBP may talk in terms of having met their

soul-mate. But, after they've been in the relationship for awhile, the

mask becomes heavy and the BP begins to let the mask drop. And one day,

suddenly and unexpectedly when the BP is *stressed*, out pops the

witch/monster (this is referred to as " acting out " when the BP rages) or

the BP may self-injure (ie, this is referred to as " acting in " ). One can

think of a high-functioning BP as a mentally ill person who sometimes

acts normal, not a normal person who sometimes acts crazy.

In an *UNCHOSEN* relationship, with a BP parent and a NonBP child, the

child can become brainwashed from identification with its mentally ill

role model because the child falsely assumes the BP parent's reality is

" normal " . But it is not. On our Oasis lists for the NonBP adult children

of BPs, we refer to these BPD traits which have been learned as 'fleas'.

In recovery, KOs (the Kids Of BPD parents) must first learn to recognize

and then eliminate their fleas.

Generally, BPs wear a nicey-nicey mask when in public, depending on the

BP's levels of emotional and cognitive development and the BP's needs.

BPs tend to be needy. When the BP needs something they can be

lovey-dovey toward the NonBP and put on the mask they wore when the

NonBP first bonded with them. This is when the BP 'hoovers' (ie, sucks

the NonBP back in, like a vacuum cleaner). Other than during a BP's

*lucid moments*, its basically just about the BP's needs - not the

NonBP's. And, not all BPs have lucid moments.

One has to remember that the person with BPD has a tiny and/or

fragmented 'self' and that the core issue with BPs is *abandonment*. If

the NonBP gets too close, intimacy-wise, then the BP will push them

away. When the NonBP gets too far away, then the BP pulls them back.

Thus, the *emotional* rollercoaster ride. Even the first word of a

toddler (ie, " No! " ), in their attempt to differentiate into their own

unique self, can be perceived by a BPmother as abandonment.

*Cognitively*, the BP's world is not always based on the same *logic* as

the NonBP's. The BP's brain functions using BPD logic. So, to understand

a BP, the NonBP must learn to think like a BP. What goes in, around, and

out of the BP's brain can pass through their BPD filters and end up with

a twisty on it. This especially happens when the BP is under stress. If

the BP 'goes off' (ie, rages) then s/he probably won't remember later

what s/he did or said because BPs tend to *dissociate* under stress.

DISSOCIATION is the state in which, on some level or another, one

becomes somewhat removed from " reality " . Dissociation is the opposite of

" association " and involves the lack of association, usually of one's

identity with the rest of the world. If the BP dissociates they can have

no memory later of the event, and when told of it will point their

finger at the NonBP and tell the NonBP that they're NUTS! Thus, the

NonBP continuously walks on eggshells, in order to keep the BP from

being stressed, and the BP's twisted logic and accusations makes the

NonBP think they're going crazy!

*Emotionally*, a BP's mood tends toward the negative and to be rapidly

unpredictable with ups and down while, at the same time, the BP needs to

feel they are " in control " . Also, the BP's mood can determine what the

BP believes to be the facts (see SWOE, p 56). The problem here is,

because one of the BP's greatest fears is they'll lose control, BPs tend

to *overcontrol*. This is particularly evident during stressful times,

such as during unplanned events and holiday get-togethers. The BP's

world can also be a tipsy-turvy world because of an accompanying mood

disorder. The most-often-accompanying mood disorder in BPs is Bipolar

Disorder where the borderline's mood can cycle slowly, over days, weeks

or months from sad to depressed up to manic and back to sad. And then

the cycle repeats.

Not all BPs rage (ie, act out) but, besides their mood disorder, a BP's

rage can be due to the 'twisty' that the BP's brain puts on info going

into and out of it. The BP has to see their self as *perfect* (ie, as

split " all good " ). Any hint/suggestion to the contrary can be heard by

the BP as " You're NOT *perfect*! " . The BP's rage to this is an automatic

(unconscious, unwilled, unthinking) response from the BP's defense

filters (ie, denial, projection, rationalization, and splitting; see

SWOE, ch 3). NonBPs tend to take what the BP says during a rage

personally but it helps to recognize the rage as the mental illness

talking. Its not about you.

About those filters, the NonBP has to be able to recognize when the BP

is using *projection* (ie, blaming the NonBP), *denial* (ie, saying that

xyz didn't really happen when the NonBP knows that it did),

*rationalization* (ie, telling lies and re-writing history), and

*splitting* (ie, seeing objects/events/people as all good OR all bad

(polar opposites, with no continuum between the two). This stuff is in

SWOE, chapters 2-4.

Following is a definition of *splitting* from the book _I Hate You,

Don't Leave Me_ by Jerry Kreisman, M.D. From page 10:

" The world of a BP, like that of a child, is split into heroes

and villains. A child emotionally, the BP cannot tolerate human

inconsistencies and ambiguities; he cannot reconcile another's good and

bad qualities into a constant coherent understanding of another person.

At any particular moment, one is either Good or EVIL. There is no

in-between; no gray area....people are idolized one day; totally

devalued and dismissed the next.

" Normal people are ambivalent and can experience two

contradictory states at one time; BPs shift back and forth, entirely

unaware of one feeling state while in the other.

" When the idealized person finally disappoints (as we all do,

sooner or later) the borderline must drastically restructure his

one-dimensional conceptionalization. Either the idol is banished to the

dungeon, or the borderline banishes himself in order to preserve the

all-good image of the other person.

" Splitting is intended to shield the BP from a barrage of

contradictory feelings and images and from the anxiety of trying to

reconcile those images. But splitting often achieves the opposite

effect. The frays in the BP's personality become rips, and the sense of

his own identity and the identity of others shifts even more

dramatically and frequently. "

BPD is a complex mental disorder. The NonBP must remember that there is

no " pure " BPD. A BP may have any combination of 5 or more of 9 BPD

traits, as well as traits of other DSM-IV Axis II disorders (eg,

narcissistic PD, antisocial PD, histrionic PD, etc). And, BPD can

coexist with other illnesses, the most common of which include the

following:

Post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD)

Mood disorders (usually Bipolar Disorder)

Panic/anxiety disorders

Substance abuse: 54% of BPs have a substance abuse problem

Gender identity disorder

Attention deficit disorder (ADD or ADHD)

Eating disorders

Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID) formerly known as Multiple

Personality Disorder, MPD)

Obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD)

When the BP has a substance abuse problem, this is known as " Dual

Diagnosis " . For info on Dual Diagnosis, go to:

http://www.toad.net/~arcturus/dd/borderln.htm#top

Generally, BPs are not willing to admit there's anything wrong with them

and thus are not willing to commit to therapy. Without therapy, the

NonBP's choices are to not engage, to leave, or do whatever is necessary

to protect their self from the emotional and verbal abuse (see SWOE,

chapters 5-7). And, the NonBP can attempt to change NonBP-BPD

interactions by becoming proficient in the DEAR and PUVAS techniques.

These can be very effective but seem difficult for NonBPs to learn, and

require lots of practice in order for the NonBP to achieve the desired

result. For more info about these techniques, go to:

http://www.bpdcentral.com/resources/library/thesea.htm

The NonBP, when starting to set boundaries, can plan on things getting

worse before getting better. BPs will fight tooth-and-nail to keep

things the way they were (ie, predictable to the BP). But the NonBP

should not engage. They can walk away or do whatever the NonBP needs to

do to protect their self and their children from the emotional and

verbal abuse. And, remember the 3 C's (SWOE, p 99):

I didn't Cause their BPD,

I can't Control their BPD, and

I can't Cure their BPD.

If the BP is high-functioning, has lucid moments, and is willing to make

a firm commitment to therapy, then therapy can be effective. High

functioning BPs can act perfectly normal most of the time (SWOE, p 48).

If the BP also has bipolar mood disorder, then the bipolar mood disorder

must be stabilized before therapy can begin. BPs don't usually seek

therapy and it is not unusual for the BP to go on a downward spiral and

hit the bottom first.

Therapy can take several years. One result of successful therapy can be

the equivalent of inserting a time-delay button between the info being

processed in the BP's brain and the BP's rage response, thus giving the

BP the ability to control the expression of his/her inappropriate anger.

BPs tend, however, to quit therapy as soon as the therapist gets close

to the BP's 'sore spot' -- ie, implications that the BP is NOT *perfect*

(ie, is not " all good " ). It takes a specially-trained therapist to be

able to work with BPs. Not all therapists have the special training

necessary but there are different therapies that do work. For info on

" How To Choose A BPD Therapist " , go to:

http://www.bpdcentral.com/resources/therapist/main.shtml

About therapy, Dialectic Behavioral Therapy (DBT) is a type of

cognitive-behavioral therapy developed by Marsha Linehan, Ph.D. at the

University of Washington that has been successfully used to treat people

who have BPD. For an overview of DBT go to:

http://www.priory.co.uk/dbt1.htm

Questions that can be asked in seeking a BPD-knowledgable/trained DBT

therapist are listed on pages 238-239 of SWOE.

To locate a DBT-trained therapist, there's a phone number listed on the

following website:

http://www.brtc.psych.washington.edu

Behavioral Technology Transfer Group (BTTG) in Seattle WA has a list of

clinicians, both nationally and internationally, who have completed DBT

training with their company. One can send an email request for referral

to a DBT-trained therapist in your area to:

DBTinfo@...

The National Alliance for the Mentally Ill (NAMI) maintains a list of

therapists who treat BPD; their hotline number is 800-950-NAMI. NAMI

also sponsors local groups for family members of the mentally ill

(including family members of those with BPD). To find your state and

local NAMI go to:

http://www.nami.org/template.cfm?section=Your_Local_Nami

NEA-BPD runs 15-week programs specifically for NonBPs. The course

teaches the NonBP how to use DBT. For more info go to:

http://borderlinepersonalitydisorder.com/family_programs_.htm

It is good to have info like this available but no one, BPs and NonBPs

alike, wants to be told there's something wrong with them. Its not like

you're going to sit down at the dinner table and say to the BP, " OK, now

about this terrible BPD thang you've got! " Prediction: Rage will follow.

From interacting over time with a person who has BPD, the NonBP can

gradually become brainwashed, develop hypervigilance or even Post

Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). Hypervigilance and PTSD are part of

one's pre-wired built-in fight-or-flight response that protects us from

danger. For info about brainwashing effects on NonBPs go to:

http://www.bpdcentral.com/resources/mediakit/brainwash.shtml#brainwashed

For info about emotional/verbal abuse go to:

http://www.bpdcentral.com/resources/abuse/evabuse.shtml

If the NonBP leaves their BPSO, the damaging emotional effects on the

NonBP can linger on with symptoms gradually disappearing over time. This

may take years but can be helped by having a specially-trained

BPD-knowledgable therapist with a successful track record from having

worked with BPs, their family members, and SOs (significant others).

For those with a BP significant other (SO) who is considering divorce,

see info about the booklet titled " SPLITTING: Protecting Yourself While

Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist " . The author is Wm Eddy. He's a

lawyer and a therapist, and he's familiar with BPD. For info go to:

http://www.bpdcentral.com/bks/spy.shtml

As stated on the BPDCentral.com website: " SPLITTING is designed for

anyone facing a high conflict divorce, whether or not your spouse meets

the criteria for a Borderline or Narcissistic Personality. Its

explanations of WHAT TO EXPECT in Family Court and WHAT TO DO to protect

yourself and your children, can be used by anyone, including your

attorney, your therapist, your family and others involved in your case. "

To see the table of contents go to:

http://www.bpdcentral.com/bks/splitting_toc.shtml

Also, there's an excerpt (ch 8) from Splitting titled " Hiring an

attorney " at:

http://www.bpdcentral.com/resources/attorney/index.shtml

And, s'more from our local So California area:

http://www.orangecounty.net/html/living_article4.html

http://www.orangecounty.net/html/living_article5.html

BPs are all different. Some are higher-functioning than others and BPs

have any combination of 5 or more of the DSM-defining 9 BPD traits. BPD

is a terrible mental illness for all involved but, to some degree,

BP's behaviors are predictable. Both BPs and NonBPs have choices.

Everyone is responsible for their own behavior.

- Edith

List Manager / WelcomeToOz Family of NonBP Email Support Groups

2/14/2005

[Guest guest]

Hi Edith,

Just curious: Is there a tremendous difference in arrival times

between those who maintain contact with BPD relatives as opposed to

those who decide not to?

cntbreathe

>

> Hi Dan,

>

> You've certainly come a long way since you first posted on one of

our

> WTO lists on July 24, 2002 - 19 months ago. I looked up the date

today

> because one of the things I'm interested in is how long it takes

KOs on

> these lists to arrive at the lamp post. The validation and support

the

> KOs here provide are very healing - along with the info provided by

> SWOE, SWOEW, SBP, and UBM. There's fresh coffee in the urn and a

box of

> Godiva chocolates over there on the table. No need to stand. Pull

up a

> comfy chair and together we'll watch for other KOs coming down the

path.

>

> - Edith

[Guest guest]

Hi Dan,

By the by, congratulations on reaching the lampost. Just wanted you

to know I celebrated for you by indulging in some chocolates. May we

all be joining you soon.

cntbreathe

>

> >

> I don't really care about Nada any more. I am out of the tunnel,

> standing by the lamp post. But not all of my body or soul is out

of

> the tunnel.

>

> - Dan

[Guest guest]

cntbreathe wrote:

> Hi Edith,

> Just curious: Is there a tremendous difference in arrival times

> between those who maintain contact with BPD relatives as opposed to

> those who decide not to?

Hi Cntbreathe,

Yes, the spread is up to 7 years so far and looks like it will continue

until those KO's nada's die. Those KOs are on another Oasis list of mine

that's been together for 7 years so far. Half of the nadas of those KOs

have died so far. It seems that the waif nada (ala Lawson's UBM) is the

most difficult one for KOs to separate from. And then it takes another

couple of years after their waif nada's death to reach the lamp post cuz

those KOs have been so entangled with their nada. *sigh*

- Edith