Standing up for yourself ?

[Guest guest]

I think a problem I have had especially in terms of how I relate to

people on this list is that standing up for yourself on the list is

really not in any way the same as actually doing that in your life.

It seems that people feel the need to put in their .02 to everything,

not because it helps them learn or grow or become more assertive, but

because it's much safer to hide behind a monitor and be 'honest' and

defend yourself, then say, well, if I didn't explain everything in

complete detail and respond to every sentence, then I'm not standing

up for myself. It's not the same at all. I tend to say a lot more

through email than I would in regular interactions because it is

safer-- really, what are the consequences of making someone here

upset? They might say something mean? So...? What I do recognize

which is quite painful is that everyone has the tendency to

overreact, to overananlyze, and to mistake pointing fingers with

being supportive. I do as well which is why it's very difficult even

reading list mail sometimes because I can see it so well, and I can

see myself in it, too, and I can also see that it doesn't get anyone

anywhere to repeat the patterns here. Whether someone was subtle in

their judgements or flat out rude, it's all the same, people were

hurt, some were burdened with more blame than others (how dare you

not censor your thoughts and not hide behind tears like you did as a

child), and it's a shame. Sometimes walking away IS the best thing to

do, even if it means not having the last word.

[Guest guest]

Are my KO brain cells working over time or is this as snippy as I

think it is?

Free

> I think a problem I have had especially in terms of how I relate to

> people on this list is that standing up for yourself on the list is

> really not in any way the same as actually doing that in your

life.

> It seems that people feel the need to put in their .02 to

everything,

> not because it helps them learn or grow or become more assertive,

but

> because it's much safer to hide behind a monitor and be 'honest'

and

> defend yourself, then say, well, if I didn't explain everything in

> complete detail and respond to every sentence, then I'm not

standing

> up for myself. It's not the same at all. I tend to say a lot more

> through email than I would in regular interactions because it is

> safer-- really, what are the consequences of making someone here

> upset? They might say something mean? So...? What I do recognize

> which is quite painful is that everyone has the tendency to

> overreact, to overananlyze, and to mistake pointing fingers with

> being supportive. I do as well which is why it's very difficult

even

> reading list mail sometimes because I can see it so well, and I can

> see myself in it, too, and I can also see that it doesn't get

anyone

> anywhere to repeat the patterns here. Whether someone was subtle

in

> their judgements or flat out rude, it's all the same, people were

> hurt, some were burdened with more blame than others (how dare you

> not censor your thoughts and not hide behind tears like you did as

a

> child), and it's a shame. Sometimes walking away IS the best thing

to

> do, even if it means not having the last word.

[Guest guest]

free_spirit_etc wrote:

> Are my KO brain cells working over time or is this as snippy as I

> think it is?

" scoutbonon " <scoutbonon@a...> wrote:

>>... what are the consequences of making someone here

>>upset? They might say something mean? So...?

Actually, this attitude is the stuff that destroys lists. All

lists are vulnerable when ppl aren't respectful of others

feelings. And that's why Randi worked so hard over the years to

put the Guidelines together. People can and do get hurt when

listmembers are abusive. The idea is to do no harm -- otherwise

we might as well all pack up and go our separate ways.

- Edith

[Guest guest]

The idea is to do no harm -- otherwise

> we might as well all pack up and go our separate ways.

>

> - Edith

Free says:

I don't want to pack up. I have too much baggage to carry alone.

Free

[Guest guest]

Edith <psyprof@e...> wrote:

>> The idea is to do no harm -- otherwise

>>we might as well all pack up and go our separate ways.

> Free says:

> I don't want to pack up. I have too much baggage to carry alone.

Hmmm. I dumped all of mine here a few years back so I know its

possible. Well, maybe we can clear the deck and give it another

try?? No one ever said that there wouldn't be bumps in the road.

- Edith

[Guest guest]

>

> >> The idea is to do no harm -- otherwise

> >>we might as well all pack up and go our separate ways.

>

>

> > Free says:

> > I don't want to pack up. I have too much baggage to carry alone.

>

>

> Hmmm. I dumped all of mine here a few years back so I know its

> possible. Well, maybe we can clear the deck and give it another

> try?? No one ever said that there wouldn't be bumps in the road.

>

> - Edith

Free - buckles her seat belt and puts on a safety helmet - getting

ready for the ride...

Wishing she could fly so the airline could lose her luggage...

Decides to put on shin guards too - just in case (hates being kicked

in the shins...)

[Guest guest]

>

> >> The idea is to do no harm -- otherwise

> >>we might as well all pack up and go our separate ways.

>

>

> > Free says:

> > I don't want to pack up. I have too much baggage to carry alone.

>

>

> Hmmm. I dumped all of mine here a few years back so I know its

> possible. Well, maybe we can clear the deck and give it another

> try?? No one ever said that there wouldn't be bumps in the road.

>

> - Edith

Free - buckles her seat belt and puts on a safety helmet - getting

ready for the ride...

Wishing she could fly so the airline could lose her luggage...

Decides to put on shin guards too - just in case (hates being kicked

in the shins...)

[Guest guest]

> >>... what are the consequences of making someone here

> >>upset? They might say something mean? So...?

>

>

> Actually, this attitude is the stuff that destroys lists. All

> lists are vulnerable when ppl aren't respectful of others

> feelings. And that's why Randi worked so hard over the years to

> put the Guidelines together. People can and do get hurt when

> listmembers are abusive. The idea is to do no harm -- otherwise

> we might as well all pack up and go our separate ways.

People are also hurt when those who run lists take sides and openly

thrash list members as if they are children (eg putting a member

on " time out " ). The issue I have is this idea that learning to stand

up for yourself on a LIST is going to translate into real life. It's

not the same at all. People are oversensitive and quick to react to

anything they might view as " mean " , whether it was intended that way

or not. My point is there is no way to really tell how something was

intended when it's through list mail, and to freak out about every

little thing is ridiculous and a huge waste of energy. And it's not

growing. It's just repeating that same old victim pattern, poor me

someone said something MEAN, with the list runner stepping in to put

people in corners, and everyone pointing fingers. People on this list

learned early that abuse is not just screaming and ranting and

namecalling, it can be a lot more subtle and it IS, in the form of

using tears to manipulate and moderation power to not-so-subtley make

very clear that this is just another playground.

[Guest guest]

" Sometimes walking away IS the best thing to do, even if it means

not having the last word. "

Stout, your advice is very good. Perhaps you could benefit more by

reflecting on the wisdom of your words and putting them into

practice as well. Just a suggestion as it keeps seeming like you

have to have the last word- be it Trampolina/Stoutbonon/etc. And

yes, this is my two cents and no, I'd not be afraid to tell you to

your face were you here right now that I think you've got good

advice but aren't taking it right now.

Have a nice day.

Kerrie

> > I think a problem I have had especially in terms of how I relate

to

> > people on this list is that standing up for yourself on the list

is

> > really not in any way the same as actually doing that in your

> life.

> > It seems that people feel the need to put in their .02 to

> everything,

> > not because it helps them learn or grow or become more

assertive,

> but

> > because it's much safer to hide behind a monitor and be 'honest'

> and

> > defend yourself, then say, well, if I didn't explain everything

in

> > complete detail and respond to every sentence, then I'm not

> standing

> > up for myself. It's not the same at all. I tend to say a lot

more

> > through email than I would in regular interactions because it is

> > safer-- really, what are the consequences of making someone here

> > upset? They might say something mean? So...? What I do

recognize

> > which is quite painful is that everyone has the tendency to

> > overreact, to overananlyze, and to mistake pointing fingers with

> > being supportive. I do as well which is why it's very difficult

> even

> > reading list mail sometimes because I can see it so well, and I

can

> > see myself in it, too, and I can also see that it doesn't get

> anyone

> > anywhere to repeat the patterns here. Whether someone was

subtle

> in

> > their judgements or flat out rude, it's all the same, people

were

> > hurt, some were burdened with more blame than others (how dare

you

> > not censor your thoughts and not hide behind tears like you did

as

> a

> > child), and it's a shame. Sometimes walking away IS the best

thing

> to

> > do, even if it means not having the last word.

[Guest guest]

" Sometimes walking away IS the best thing to do, even if it means

not having the last word. "

Stout, your advice is very good. Perhaps you could benefit more by

reflecting on the wisdom of your words and putting them into

practice as well. Just a suggestion as it keeps seeming like you

have to have the last word- be it Trampolina/Stoutbonon/etc. And

yes, this is my two cents and no, I'd not be afraid to tell you to

your face were you here right now that I think you've got good

advice but aren't taking it right now.

Have a nice day.

Kerrie

> > I think a problem I have had especially in terms of how I relate

to

> > people on this list is that standing up for yourself on the list

is

> > really not in any way the same as actually doing that in your

> life.

> > It seems that people feel the need to put in their .02 to

> everything,

> > not because it helps them learn or grow or become more

assertive,

> but

> > because it's much safer to hide behind a monitor and be 'honest'

> and

> > defend yourself, then say, well, if I didn't explain everything

in

> > complete detail and respond to every sentence, then I'm not

> standing

> > up for myself. It's not the same at all. I tend to say a lot

more

> > through email than I would in regular interactions because it is

> > safer-- really, what are the consequences of making someone here

> > upset? They might say something mean? So...? What I do

recognize

> > which is quite painful is that everyone has the tendency to

> > overreact, to overananlyze, and to mistake pointing fingers with

> > being supportive. I do as well which is why it's very difficult

> even

> > reading list mail sometimes because I can see it so well, and I

can

> > see myself in it, too, and I can also see that it doesn't get

> anyone

> > anywhere to repeat the patterns here. Whether someone was

subtle

> in

> > their judgements or flat out rude, it's all the same, people

were

> > hurt, some were burdened with more blame than others (how dare

you

> > not censor your thoughts and not hide behind tears like you did

as

> a

> > child), and it's a shame. Sometimes walking away IS the best

thing

> to

> > do, even if it means not having the last word.