Re: liberals ..OT

[Guest guest]

PLEASE! keep politics and religion stuff off this list. As I've posted

previously, its against the WTO Guidelines and its very upsetting to

some KOs on this list.

Thank you, and don't shoot the messenger!

- Edith

List Manager / WelcomeToOz Family of NonBP Email Support Groups

[Guest guest]

Dear Edith,

> Thank you, and don't shoot the messenger!

We would never do that. Sorry about all this. My fault, and won't

happen again.

[Guest guest]

--- Edith wrote:

---------------------------------

PLEASE! keep politics and religion stuff off this

list. As I've posted

previously, its against the WTO Guidelines and its

very upsetting to

some KOs on this list.

Thank you, and don't shoot the messenger!

- Edith

List Manager / WelcomeToOz Family of NonBP Email

Support Groups

I agree with this of course. Sorry if I caused it. I

feel terrible!

But it is a tricky one! Should I have kept my

sexuality off the list too? It is pretty central to my

journey so I kind of just let it out! It's just that I

feel warm inside when someone is accepting of my

lifestyle. Incidently my lifestyle is very " normal " , I

harm no one and am NEVER political about wanting to be

accepted. There is nothing obvious about me as a gay

man. Only that I am sensitive - and I know a few

straight men who are even more sensitive than I. Yet

the funny thing is, my nada knew! As an adolescent,

she would lecture me about how it would be a terrible

sin and how miserable those people are! It was

confusing as the " official " household perspective was

liberal (in the British, non contentious sense of the

word - perhaps I'll use the word tolerant from now on

instead!). My grandma (more extreme in her BP traits

than my nada) took it a step further and told me -

when I was 9 or 10 - that I should have been born a

girl. I found this very upsetting as I was a very

masculine boy, thick-set, good at rugby and athletics

and never identified with girly things at all. But she

was - like my nada - almost psychically able to find

the weak spots. I already felt a little different to

other boys. The fact that I absolutely repressed my

sexuality and ended up married to a BP who abused me

systematically is something I hoped I could share on

here, without inciting too much anger or hatred. I

accept that some people will hate me for my lifestyle

but I am naturally pleased when someone is accepting

and tolerant. That's what I meant by saying that I was

glad Di was liberal. And I raised the political

perspective as a semantic illumination of how the word

is used differently in my language. It was careless of

me perhaps. I apologise!

I have been very open on here and that has been

incredible. The support I feel from reading kindness

and compassion in the very open posts of all the KOs

in support of each other is genuinely inspiring. I

hope I haven't caused anyone any pain. I feel worried

now that I have been stupid. Please forgive me.

Phil

Send questions and/or concerns to

ModOasis-owner

" Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs,

can be ordered via 1-888-35-SHELL () and

for the table of contents, go to:

http://www.BPDCentral.com

---------------------------------

[Guest guest]

Sorry, Edith.

We are an apologetic bunch, aren't we?

I just get triggered more when I have done something bad and am

reprimanded..that is worse to me than politics, religion, sexuality

combined!

I know you are just doing your job, but it kinda bites sometimes.

Since we have to tiptoe around Nada, it just feels weird to be " in

trouble. "

I though that if we wrote " OT " on the posts we were okay. I will try

to remember this next time.

I am should-ing all over myself now : (

Di.

[Guest guest]

> I know you are just doing your job, but it kinda bites sometimes.

> Since we have to tiptoe around Nada, it just feels weird to be " in

> trouble. "

Dear Di

That was such a cool way of putting it. It made me smile. It does

feel awful being " in trouble " but I don't think we are really. I

started it anyway and I can plead newbie ignorance, being from

another country and general tendencies to " say the wrong thing " by

getting carried away! Sorry that I led you on. It hasn't stopped me

posting which is good. I've gone the other way and posted miles too

much!!

Phil

[Guest guest]

> Thank you, and don't shoot the messenger!

Edith, I am going to shoot you anyway.

It seems to me that on this and other American lists, pro-liberal

posts are banned but anti-liberal posts are tolerated. Pro-religion

posts are banned but anti-religion posts are tolerated - even though

it is the the liberal stereotype that is anti-religion.

Banning anything which doesn't go over the line of abuse pushes my

buttons.

- Dan

[Guest guest]

Phil, your posting raised several ideas which are very interesting

to me.

You referred to the British meaning of " liberal " , and said

that " tolerant " might be a better word. To me, as an American who

learned more from books than from television, " liberal "

means " tolerant " . I have had Americans label me as " liberal " and

then direct hatred at me for it. I once lost a job because I

objected to my boss saying " all the liberals should be killed " . I

don't know what Americans mean any more by " liberal " , but I

certainly don't identify with all the political stands of those who

are commonly labeled " liberal " . I am willing to label

myself " tolerant " , and go further than that to say I do not just

tolerate diversity, I love and welcome it.

In France " libéral " means favoring an unregulated free market. It

has nothing to do with the American meaning.

Your description of a BPD mother and grandmother in the context of

homosexuality really got my attention. All my life I have suffered

from BIID (Body Integrity Identity Disorder, the intense desire to

become an amputee). I have been fighting this desire really hard,

and have learned a lot about it. This hasn't helped me reduce the

desire. Something like 40% of BIID sufferers are homosexual. Most

of them, gay or straight, who are willing to share their childhood

experiences, had a BPD mother.

It is politically correct to believe that homosexuality is inborn,

but I am really skeptical about that. I think that the congruence

between homosexuality and BIID may provide a new way of

understanding that. It is hard for me to imagine an inborn

condition that would make me want to be one-legged, but I have found

not one but many events in my early childhood that built that

desire. Do you think that homosexuality could also be acquired in

this way?

If this relationship is true, maybe a treatment for BIID would also

change homosexuality. However, there is no known treatment for BIID

other than trying to live with the discomfort, or surgery. At this

point I believe that both homosexuality and BIID are acquired, but

once acquired, it is hard-wired and it is pointless and cruel to try

to change it.

- Dan

[Guest guest]

Dan wrote:

>>Thank you, and don't shoot the messenger!

>

> Edith, I am going to shoot you anyway.

Hi Dan,

Sorry, but not on my watch! Like the Guidelines state, take it up with

the list-owner.

- Edith

List Manager / WelcomeToOz Family of NonBP Email Support Groups

[Guest guest]

--- Dan wrote:

---------------------------------

> You referred to the British meaning of " liberal " ,

> and said that " tolerant " might be a better word.

> It is politically correct to believe that

> homosexuality is inborn, but I am really skeptical > about that.

I think that the congruence

> between homosexuality and BIID may provide a new

> way of understanding that. It is hard for me to

> imagine an inborn condition that would make me want > to be one-

legged, but I have found not one but many > events in my early

childhood that built that

> desire. Do you think that homosexuality could also > be acquired

in this way?

____________________________________________________

Dan

It's nice to know that you see what I meant about being liberal and

that my comments were more semantic than political. I was just

celebrating Di's fabulous tolerance. She has made me smile so much

from reading her posts these past days, I wanted to say that I was

glad that she wasn't a dull conformist. Using the " L " word

unfortunately was a bit reckless and perhaps I should have realised

it despite the language barrier. I feel awful that I drew her into

such a delicate topic and then too got pulled in. has

been lifting my heart over and over this past week. She is amazing

and I feel bad.

Your other topic in your message is interesting to me. I think

causes and effects are very hard to link up. The causality of my

sexuality has been a subject of intense debate in my overactive mind

for as long as I have known about sexuality at all. Was my nada's

invasive and cruel treatment of me a factor? I don't know! She made

me neurotic. That I do know. Is homosexuality the result of neurosis

or is neurosis the result of homosexuality in an intolerant society?

Research is going on into male and female brain development. Rather

like left-handedness, the current thinking is that hormonal levels

during pregnancy determine the male/female brain types. Homosexuals

usually have predominantly female brains but not always. And many

straight men have female brains too but are not gay.

Another area of research involves studying homosexuality in animal

populations. It is just as common in many higher functioning social

species. It seems that homosexuality can be evolutionarily useful.

Such males tend to bond with females MORE than the heterosexual

males and are often involved in creating protective " home "

environments for mothers and young. All of this points to its being

a part of nature's plan (if nature has a plan!!).

BIID is of course much less common than homosexuality and probably

researched in very different ways. The link between them may be

significant in some ways but I don't know anything about BIID so I

cannot comment much really. I'd be interested to know more.

Many people will argue that the two research areas mentioned above

are purely designed to furnish liberal thinkers with justification

for gay lifestyles. BIID might be a little harder to explain in such

terms and is therefore seen as a disorder. But is it? We develop

traits that help us to cope in a pretty crazy world. BIID could be a

healthy expression of something. That said, I think I can begin to

see what a struggle it must be for you.

The question about all our choices must not be whether or not they

are " natural " but whether or not some one is harming others because

of them, whether or not the choice or in your case, the desire for

that choice to be made, really feels like a choice at all. Quite

simply, sometimes we are just the ways we are and rejection and

intolerance are futile, cruel and very unhelpful.

I have a history of risky behaviour in a sort of CPD ritualised form

at times of intense stress. It was a secret. It sometimes caused me

injury and was definitely something that had real potential negative

consequences. Now that I am dealing with my issues (since therapy)

and can attribute them to past events, I no longer indulge in that

behaviour. It was definitely caused by my history of systematic

physical punishment as a child. My homosexuality on the other hand

has only become a stronger part of who I am as I loosen the grip of

shame that has held me since childhood. So I tend not to think of my

sexuality as something I need to get better from. I'm curious how

your BIID might change in relation to dealing with the issues of

having a BP parent.

Did my nada make me gay? No! I don't think so. In fact, she made me

straight; for years I repressed my true sexuality through fear of

her treatment of me if I came out to her. I could be quite wrong

though. Do male KOs often have homosexual tendencies?

It's all very interesting but the main thing is – feel no shame! You

are clearly a great person! And your BIID is part of what makes you

who you are!

Phil

Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner

" Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered

via 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go

to:

http://www.BPDCentral.com

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the kind words, Phil! Glad I could bring a little healthy

laughter into your life!

But darn it, now you have outed and I as liberal AND tolerant!

: )

I always thought that my Nada was tolerant, and she was compared to

most people, it seems. But as she has aged she has become less

tolerant, most especially of different races. Sometimes I can't

believe some of the things she says, especially in front of her

black grandson. DUH! She seems to think that she can pick and chose

who to be tolerant of...reminds me of a certain " head of state. " It

is a huge anger trigger for me.

Hmmm. I have my own rather interesting perspective of the " gay

origins " . I have been fascinated by the recent (past 15 years) study

of the human brain that shows differences in the brains of gay and

straight men and men/women's brains. Also, there was a 20/20 or

Primetime show recently about a set of female twins- one of which

always felt she was a man and has since undergone gender

transformation (?) surgery. I also have had the experience of dating

(as a teenager) a young guy who is gay. He wasn't sure at the time,

so I was his big experiment. Of course, neither of us thought the

relationship was an experiment at the time. We are friends and laugh

about it now. He was effeminate at the time so we joke that both of

us had extremely poor gay-dar!We have had had long talks about this

subject.

Also, I know gay men who were not raised by Nada's- even raised in

wonderful nurturing families with no outright trauma, so that theory

doesn't gel for me.

I think that the more we learn about genetics and the brain, the

more fascinating we will all become!

Here's a funny Nada thing- she divoriced my father when I was a

toddler. He was banished from my life (maybe so I could share Nada's

abandonment issues, lol). Nada admitted to me when I was a teen that

she was worried that not having a father figure would make me a

lesbian. She even asked my pediatrician about this " fear " when I was

little. Oh, what a relief that must have been when I had a crush on

Shaun Cassidy at 13!

Lordy, how DO we all survive our parents, Nada's especially?

Di.

[Guest guest]

Phil,

Your comments give me a lot to think about. I appreciate it.

I think you are right that if something like homosexuality is

widespread over time, cultures, and even different species, it is a

good guess that it is useful to the survival of the species even if

we don't know why yet.

BIID is a little harder to see. My therapist pointed out that a fox

caught in a trap will chew off its leg, but a wolf usually will

not. This is because a wolf has to be able to keep up with the pack

to survive. In my case, I think it was a way of compartmentalizing

a lot of bad stuff that could have destroyed me otherwise. In that

way it is adaptive.

I am very skeptical about this " male and female brain development " .

If both brain types are found in both homosexual and heterosexual

men, I think the simplest explanation is that the brain types are

mislabeled and do not have to do with sexuality or gender, even if

there is some statistical correlation.

Because BIID is uncommon, it has been very little researched. I am

probably one of three people in the world who know the most about

it, and I don't know much. It was discovered accidentally in the

1970's during research on transgender. Literature and folk tales

(even the Bible) give evidence that it has always been around. The

internet is now making it visible for the first time, as people who

suffered in isolation now have the ability to find out that they are

not the only ones.

I would say if a person is homosexual and contented to be that way,

it is not a disorder. If a person has BIID and it is a pleasant

fantasy that does not rule his life, then it is not a disorder. If

a person has BIID and becomes an amputee and happily accepts the

disability, then it is not a disorder. For me it is a disorder,

because it occupies too much of my consciousness. I am

hypersensitive about many things, simply because they trigger the

BIID feelings to be too strong. If I were an amputee I don't

believe I would be hypersensitive, because I would be happy to be

what I am. But it is a lot harder to get from here to there than to

adopt a homosexual lifestyle. And if I don't like it I can't go

back.

Things are going well for me now. I have come to grips with the

fact that my mother was never there for me and never will be. My

wife is back with me and we are getting along very well. She is

respecting my boundaries, which has been a big problem in the past.

I have taken up sport flying again and am starting to explore the

Alps in a " trike " ultralight aircraft - one of my best dreams.

During my childhood, I didn't believe I had the right to be happy or

to have boundaries. BIID was my refuge from that. Now, the better

things are, the stronger the BIID is because of that association.

If I could have my leg off and be able to put it back on later, I

would have it off today. I doubt I would ever put it on again.

> It's all very interesting but the main thing is

> – feel no shame! You are clearly a great person!

> And your BIID is part of what makes you who you are!

Thanks, Phil. I have been working very hard to reduce shame, and

have largely succeeded. This reminds me of the film, " Starship

Troopers " . An army recruiter, who is a triple amputee, tells

recruits, " The army made me the man I am today " !

- Dan

[Guest guest]

> Also, I know gay men who were not raised

> by Nada's- even raised in wonderful

> nurturing families with no outright trauma,

> so that theory doesn't gel for me.

Di, I know gay men like that too. I also know people with BIID with

a positive background. If a dysfunctional childhood is part of the

explanation, it isn't all of it.

- Dan