Re: setting boundaries

[Guest guest]

Depends on how you define " luck. "

I also struggle to have some kind of relationship with my nada, even

though it is very difficult at times. She was not always like this,

and I know she is a miserable, lonely person now. So I try to have

contact when it's possible. But having contact means setting

boundaries, and these efforts are not appreciated by her--she gets

really angry and does all those things BPs do: lie, have a fit,

create chaos. When she can handle my boundaries (e.g., I say " you

can't talk to me about your divorce anymore " and she stops doing it)

then we have contact that sometimes is pretty good, though of

limited intimacy. When she can't handle my boundaries (e.g., I

say " if you want to talk about why you're angry at me we have to go

to your therapist " and she calls me to berate me for what I said to

so-and-so and to tell me she thinks there's something wrong with

me), then I end up having to screen calls and emails and not speak

her for a while. It is the only way I can protect myself.

Notice the " luck " part has to do with whether she can deal with my

boundaries, not whether I set them. I am learning the really long

and hard way that I must set boundaries no matter what, because

otherwise I let her mess up my life too.

You said your father stuck up for you when your mother told you to

change, and then you said you set a boundary. Maybe it would help

if you could think about ways you could protect yourself, like

saying to your mother " I like what I'm wearing and I'm going anyway "

or even ignoring her and just going. It sounds like you and your

father are sort of afraid of your mother. I understand. There may

be ways to stick up for yourself without setting her off, but if

there aren't, you should probably just do what you have to do and

then get out of the way so you're not there when she gets out of

hand.

The alternative is to do what you did the first time, say I'm not

going. And then you feel that awful feeling. I did that for years--

just tried to do what would make her leave me alone, but it didn't

work. I got severely depressed and she continued to harass me

anyway. I realized that I was sort of killing myself to stay within

her narrow restrictions for me. Now I am a much happier, whole

person, but I do not have much of a relationship with nada. This is

painful, but at least I am whole. It's not your fault that she is

the way she is.

Good luck.

TG

> So, I'm curious if people have had any luck with setting

boundaries

> with a parent. Given that she is my one and only mother, not a SO

> that I can dump and pick another - I don't think I'm ready to cut

> off all contact with her.

>

> What I'm hoping to be able to do is to keep my priorities and my

> needs straight. When she's in me-me-me, crisis mode. I've done

> this sometimes. But, it still knocks the wind out of me. The

guilt

> trip works, even if I don't give in to it. Logically, I " know "

that

> letting someone handle the consequences of their lack of planning

is

> better for them in the long term. But, still, the short-term

> consequences often seem too big.

>

> One of the boundaries that I can't seem to set: verbal abuse. My

> Mom will try to micromanage my life, and I find it completely

> unacceptable. More than giving me advice which I ignore, she'll

be

> quite rude. Everyone was going out to lunch and she looked at me

> and said " you're not going if you're wearing that " and so I said

> without a blink " okay, I'm not going " and then Dad stepped in and

> said " you don't have to change " or whatever. So, I stood up for

my

> rights, but I still feel like I let her get away with verbal abuse.

>

> Is it reasonable to expect that to change? What's remarkable to

me

> is that when I tell her her comments are rude - she honestly has

no

> idea what I'm talking about. She thinks that's just a normal

> comment - except she wouldn't think that if someone else said that

> to her.

[Guest guest]

I am having some hard time setting boundaries in the sense that nada is so

involved with my 14-year-old daughter in the sense that nada owns the 3 mini

horses my daughter goes over to take care of at nada's house. Also since I work

full time and daughter cannot drive yet, nada sometimes gets to drive my

daughter to a function. I would have to not let my daughter go to these

functions any more and not let her see her horses any more in order to carry out

the boundaries as I would really like them. Have not been able to bring myself

to that point yet. I did keep my daughter from seeing the little horses for a

week and that was about all I could hold out for. Now nada knows not to

directly make me angry (still does indirectly) but thinks she can sneak and talk

to my daughter behind my back about things. So now a therapist told me that

when nada tells her " don't tell your mother I told you this stuff or you will

never see the horses again " , my daughter has to tell nada " I have to tell my

mother you are telling me this stuff " . Then risk what comes next. I told my

daughter nada would hardly likely actually sell the horses because that would

make my daughter not want to see my nada any more. Nada would just make other

threats. Thus my dilemma in completely setting the boundaries.

Theresa

-- " roopaligarg " wrote:

So, I'm curious if people have had any luck with setting boundaries

with a parent. Given that she is my one and only mother, not a SO

that I can dump and pick another - I don't think I'm ready to cut

off all contact with her.

What I'm hoping to be able to do is to keep my priorities and my

needs straight. When she's in me-me-me, crisis mode. I've done

this sometimes. But, it still knocks the wind out of me. The guilt

trip works, even if I don't give in to it. Logically, I " know " that

letting someone handle the consequences of their lack of planning is

better for them in the long term. But, still, the short-term

consequences often seem too big.

One of the boundaries that I can't seem to set: verbal abuse. My

Mom will try to micromanage my life, and I find it completely

unacceptable. More than giving me advice which I ignore, she'll be

quite rude. Everyone was going out to lunch and she looked at me

and said " you're not going if you're wearing that " and so I said

without a blink " okay, I'm not going " and then Dad stepped in and

said " you don't have to change " or whatever. So, I stood up for my

rights, but I still feel like I let her get away with verbal abuse.

Is it reasonable to expect that to change? What's remarkable to me

is that when I tell her her comments are rude - she honestly has no

idea what I'm talking about. She thinks that's just a normal

comment - except she wouldn't think that if someone else said that

to her.

Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner

" Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via

1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to:

http://www.BPDCentral.com

[Guest guest]

Thanks for your input.

I hear the point you're making, that I could have said " I'm wearing

this and going anyway " , and there are times when I would have done

so. In this particular situation, that wasn't my boundary. I didn't

NEED to go, and this outing was organized by my Mom. I gave her the

right to decide who was invited along, though Dad out-votes her

because he was paying. Yes, I could have insisted on going and

driven separately and sat by myself, but I wasn't looking to do that.

I'm not sure why you got the impression that Dad is scared of her.

Maybe I wasn't clear. He was irritated with the in-fighting, but he

knew he had the upper hand.

My point is - more than simply asserting my right to wear what I

want, I would like my Mom to understand that her words were out of

line. Even if I see people dressed a certain way and think " oh, how

inappropriate " , I don't go up to them and say that. I think that's

a kind of psychological boundary - what I think of someone else's

clothes is my issue, and not theirs. If they ask for my opinion, I

can give it, but otherwise, not.

[Guest guest]

As I've mentioned, I'm having just terrible nightmares about nada

ever since I moved to the same state as her. And mine's not even a

rager. She's just that traumatic. I sense I need to make a plan,

set some boundaries to try and comfort my psyche. The ones I'm

playing around with are:

First, physical. There are situations in which I am more vulnerable

to her, and those must be cut. It is one of her greatest fantasies

to get me alone in a car, especially with my split good sister

present. So anyway I can't be alone with her, especially in a

situation where I am trapped. Never, never in the car alone with

her! And I try to keep away from spending the night at her house as

much as possible as well, although it's hard because my dog loves

her so. I wish I could never be in public with her either, because

she understands I am 'trapped' there in the sense that I won't make

a scene, so she uses it as a chance to say terrible things and try

to fish for info about my private life. It is best, I find, not to

tell nada you are setting these boundaries, but just to set them

privately (or with your therpist), and enforce them religiously.

Next, topical. She already has sensed she's not allowed to talk

about my romantic life. This is a problem because she uses

EVERYTHING to abuse me, but there are some subjects in which she

never has. We're pretty safe talking about politics (believe it or

not), religion, other family members (somewhat), and anything HER--

her appearance, what she's buying next, etc. So my plan is going to

be to absolutely ignore her on all the unsafe subjects, and limit to

the safe ones. For now I am choosing not to tell her she has bpd.

After my Dad dies, though, watch out! I am only doing this for

him. I don't want him to die, ever, of course, but if he does

before her, well--let's just say the b*ch will no longer get kid

glove treatment from me. For now though, setting boundaries without

telling her, and enforcing them religiously, seems to be the best

way. I will try just to ignore her, but if I have to I will say, we

won't be discussing topic x today, thank you. She is so very

sensitive that just one or two mentions should be enough to shut her

up on the topic for several months.

Third and last, control. (These categories are based loosely on a

section of Surviving a Borderline Parent, by the way.) I must be

sure not to be dependent on nada in any way. If so, she can use

that as a means to justify her reality--ie, I must accept her

reality in order to get what I need. A few years ago, she took over

some of my finances so that I could work as a volunteering for a

very worthy cause. & It was at this point that I became suicidal.

Nada cannot have anything one needs. Ever. I have taken that over

now. That is their best means of controlling the reality of an

adult child. This one is very important, and very hard if nada has

set you up all your life to be dependent upon her. But people do

get out, once they realize what is happening and become determined.

What do people think of these boundaries? Any advice, anyone tried

this sort of thing?

> So, I'm curious if people have had any luck with setting

boundaries

> with a parent. Given that she is my one and only mother, not a SO

> that I can dump and pick another - I don't think I'm ready to cut

> off all contact with her.

>

> What I'm hoping to be able to do is to keep my priorities and my

> needs straight. When she's in me-me-me, crisis mode. I've done

> this sometimes. But, it still knocks the wind out of me. The

guilt

> trip works, even if I don't give in to it. Logically, I " know "

that

> letting someone handle the consequences of their lack of planning

is

> better for them in the long term. But, still, the short-term

> consequences often seem too big.

>

> One of the boundaries that I can't seem to set: verbal abuse. My

> Mom will try to micromanage my life, and I find it completely

> unacceptable. More than giving me advice which I ignore, she'll

be

> quite rude. Everyone was going out to lunch and she looked at me

> and said " you're not going if you're wearing that " and so I said

> without a blink " okay, I'm not going " and then Dad stepped in and

> said " you don't have to change " or whatever. So, I stood up for

my

> rights, but I still feel like I let her get away with verbal abuse.

>

> Is it reasonable to expect that to change? What's remarkable to

me

> is that when I tell her her comments are rude - she honestly has

no

> idea what I'm talking about. She thinks that's just a normal

> comment - except she wouldn't think that if someone else said that

> to her.

>

>

>

>

> Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner

> " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered

via 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go

to:

> http://www.BPDCentral.com

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Char -

I think you're absolutely right on. NEVER spend the night there.

The car issue is dependent on who's driving and how easy it is to

take a cab. I know I'm happier when I'm driving myself, but

sometimes it seems okay to risk it, especially if I could get home

if something happened or if I could leave her someplace and tell her

to take a cab home.

Isn't that sad, when you spell it out that way. It's like you're

forever on a first date. Safe topics, for me it would be public

locations, always have an escape route. Makes me wonder what would

make it worth the effort to stay in touch. Wouldn't it be easier to

make a true friend? There is really too much drama here.

> First, physical. There are situations in which I am more

vulnerable

> to her, and those must be cut. It is one of her greatest

fantasies

> to get me alone in a car, especially with my split good sister

> present. So anyway I can't be alone with her, especially in a

> situation where I am trapped. Never, never in the car alone with

> her! And I try to keep away from spending the night at her house

as

> much as possible as well, although it's hard because my dog loves

> her so.

[Guest guest]

I'm sorry-- I think I misunderstood some of what you wrote. I see

that you are more bothered by nada's presumption in commenting on

your appearance, and I agree with you.

I really liked one posted suggestion: " I'm afraid we won't be

discussing my appearance tonight. If you continue to make comments,

I'll be leaving. And then, leave, enforce it. " I thought this was a

very strong way to assert oneself without focusing on or threatening

the BP. I'm going to keep it in mind for next time.

My nada is sensitive to *all* my efforts to create safety for

myself. She brings up my boundaries as evidence that there is

something missing in me, something wrong with me. It makes me want

to pretend with her that I am not protecting myself, when really I

am. This is hard to do, if not impossible!

TG

[Guest guest]

> My nada is sensitive to *all* my efforts to create safety for

> myself. She brings up my boundaries as evidence that there is

> something missing in me, something wrong with me.

When I was in college, I had to set a boundary with my mom about

discussing my weight, which she'd ask about in every phone

conversation. Each time, it would undermine all the self-confidence

I'd built up by living with real friends who cared more about me

than about a number on a scale. I remember sobbing as I wrote to

her, *knowing* that she'd be angry. I was surprised when she simply

accepted it and said it was fine. I was happy to have underestimated

her.

Years later (you can guess what's coming), we were having an intense

conversation, and she said, " Well, you don't want me in your life

anyway. " I was flabbergasted. As proof, she pointed to the

letter: " It wasn't what you said; it's *how* you said it. "

Apparently, the fact that *I* was the one who called *her* and wrote

to her and sent b-day cards/xmas gifts for many years -- without any

reciprocation -- was irrelevant.

Roopali, consensus logic is *definitely* not the strong suit of

BPs. Accepting that fact will mitigate a lot of frustration for

you. (As a friend once pointed out, I have this terrible habit of

expecting people to be *rational*... LOL)

peace,

journeywork

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Journey, and others. (TG - no prob, it's not always possible

for me to make the entire situation clear the first time).

I think I'm still struggling with believing this diagnosis. I mean,

what I hear fits with what other people say. But - to what extent

is this just what " conflict " feels like? People get angry. People

are over-sensitive. People fear loss.

> consensus logic is *definitely* not the strong suit of

> BPs. Accepting that fact will mitigate a lot of frustration

for

> you. (As a friend once pointed out, I have this terrible habit of

> expecting people to be *rational*... LOL)

Very funny!

But, still. One of my questions is how to set a boundary - without

having a knot in the pit of my stomach. Like when she's insulted

me, I can say that " you're entitled to your opinion " , but that's not

what I feel. What I feel is 1. defensive about the truth 2.

resentful of all I do for her that she ignores 3. angry that I can't

have a supportive mother 4. idiotic for exposing myself to her...

What I feel is " how dare you? " .

It's like having a guy in a bar pinch my but. Hey, worse things

have happened to my but, the actual injury is trifling, but it's the

presumption involved. If a guy did that, I wouldn't just stare or

walk away, I'd slap him. But I don't know what the equivalent is to

do to my Mom.

[Guest guest]

I guess I have had some success in setting boundaries. This would be

before I stopped seeing nada. Just had a flash back.....the last

time I set a boundary with nada, was right before the vacation, that

led to the last rage, that led to my ending all contact with nada.

Up until now, I had forgotten about that boundary setting incident.

Hmmmmmmmmmm, wonder if that contributed to nada's rage on

our 'family' vacation? Hahaha...perhaps nada was carrying that with

her for weeks, and then just let it rip during vacation?

But - I digress. Back to the 'some success'. I can see that over

the course of many years, I was able to get nada to stop certain

behaviors because I set some boundaries. Most of these had to do with

my children. I wasn't having nada bribe them into good behavior, or

saying some of her paranoid ideas to them. My biggest gripe was that

nada is VERY prejudiced. I would always stop her from such

conversation in the presence of my children. Unfortunately, I had to

do this time and time again, because I didn't take action. I should

have told her that I would leave with the children if she started

this line of conversation. I was still in FOG at the time, and did

not want the rest of the family to think I was intolerant and

disrespectful of my mother by doing something like that. Now I know

better. It is my nada who is intolerant and disrespectful, not only

of the people she is talking about, but also to her family.

However, setting boundaries has also 'knocked the wind' out of me,

and it still does. Especially the first time in any new situation.

Regardless, I still do it, because I know that the end benefit is

worth the anxiety and anything else I may be feeling at the time. I

am getting used to accepting that 'some' people may think I am

selfish, inconsiderate, etc. for setting any of my boundaries. And

that level of discomfort is also okay with me, because I know that

the reward of having the boundary and taking care of myself in this

way is worth it. And I am learning that there are many people out

there who just don't 'bat an eyelash' over boundary setting. These

are the people who have set boundaries, understand them, are

comfortable with them, and actually expect other people to do the

same.

IMO, it is not reasonable to expect change from a BP parent. If the

parent is in therapy, then yes, there is that possibility. But if

not, that BP parent just doesn't get it. The change will come from

you. As you change, and maintain those changes, all others around

you will change to accomodate your changes. But a BP parent will try

even harder for awhile to get you back to where you were before.

My experience has been that no matter how difficult it has been for

my to change and grow, all the pain and difficulty has been worth

it. I feel SO much better about myself for what I am doing to take

care of myself.

I hope all is well with you,

Sylvia

> So, I'm curious if people have had any luck with setting boundaries

> with a parent. Given that she is my one and only mother, not a SO

> that I can dump and pick another - I don't think I'm ready to cut

> off all contact with her.

>

> What I'm hoping to be able to do is to keep my priorities and my

> needs straight. When she's in me-me-me, crisis mode. I've done

> this sometimes. But, it still knocks the wind out of me. The

guilt

> trip works, even if I don't give in to it. Logically, I " know "

that

> letting someone handle the consequences of their lack of planning

is

> better for them in the long term. But, still, the short-term

> consequences often seem too big.

>

> One of the boundaries that I can't seem to set: verbal abuse. My

> Mom will try to micromanage my life, and I find it completely

> unacceptable. More than giving me advice which I ignore, she'll be

> quite rude. Everyone was going out to lunch and she looked at me

> and said " you're not going if you're wearing that " and so I said

> without a blink " okay, I'm not going " and then Dad stepped in and

> said " you don't have to change " or whatever. So, I stood up for my

> rights, but I still feel like I let her get away with verbal abuse.

>

> Is it reasonable to expect that to change? What's remarkable to me

> is that when I tell her her comments are rude - she honestly has no

> idea what I'm talking about. She thinks that's just a normal

> comment - except she wouldn't think that if someone else said that

> to her.

[Guest guest]

<One of my questions is how to set a boundary - without

having a knot in the pit of my stomach. Like when she's insulted

me, I can say that " you're entitled to your opinion " , but that's not

what I feel. What I feel is 1. defensive about the truth 2.

resentful of all I do for her that she ignores 3. angry that I can't

have a supportive mother 4. idiotic for exposing myself to her...

What I feel is " how dare you? " .>

I experience 1-4 so often! And I get a knot in my stomach when I

even think about confronting my mother--a real problem for me, even

separate from the need to actually say something to her or protect

myself. I want to say " how dare you? " all the time, but I know that

won't be heard or get any kind of result I want. But swallowing

that feeling causes me stomach problems--no kidding.

I am also struggling with some of the same things you mentioned

earlier, about accepting the diagnosis and wondering how much is

just conflict and human nature. My nada really does distort the

truth and ignore what I do for her, but she didn't always. She used

to be better. And she may not yet be able to help it or realize

what's happening. I have become so angry with her for the rotten

treatment especially lately, but now with a little break from her, I

wonder why I got so sucked in that I was actually " abused " ... I

feel so sorry for her that she (a) feels so threatened that she

would break from reality and ( that she doesn't realize how her

behavior alienates her from people--she's so lonely but doesn't

understand that she has contributed to the problem. But I need to

look at what I do, too.

I'm eager to read about how you decide to handle your mother's

comments.

TG

[Guest guest]

Woops, didn't mean to send that blank.

That's fair, Hope, but what does that really mean? Does it mean

that every time she says something like that, I immediately walk

away for - a day, a week, until she apologizes, what? How does that

teach her anything? If I just walk away - she has no idea why.

Even if I tell her " you can't talk to me that way " before I walk

away - she has no idea why.

I guess I'm grappling with the possibility that she will never

change - and I'm condemning myself to having no mother if I make her

behavior a sticking point. It also seems, in my FOG, overly

sensitive. Doesn't having good boundaries mean that I can accept

that she sees differently? I would really like to be able to

FEEL " you're entitled to your opinion " , and in calm moments I do

think that. Like if she expresses an opinion about the weather -

it's going to rain today - even if I am 100% sure it won't, I don't

pick a fight over it.

Do you know what I mean? The boundaries that matter - are

internal. Staying in touch with who I am and what I want. Being

able to change her rude demand into the poorly-worded request and

respond to that: " I hear that you would like me to change my

clothes; I'm not going to honor that request. "

I think part of the reason for this: My sister had a habit of

getting up and leaving every time someone did something she found

offensive. Which ranged from small slights to someone simply taking

care of themselves. If she was driving, she'd tell people to get

out of the car - and walk home, presumably? I think the one time

someone was really stranded, she came back 10 minutes later. She

did this to me, where she decided, on Xmas morning, that she didn't

like how I talk to my parents, and so she was putting me out of her

house. I live 1000's of miles away, and I have no car, and the

other sister in town lives far away... I have visited this sister

since then, but will not try to stay overnight, and that was maybe 7

years ago?

I don't know why it's harder to decide that with my Mom. I think

once I move out, it will be clearer that I'm not getting any needs

met here.

> Ah, here's the thing about boundaries. It is about you

> upholding them, not about somebody else resepecting them.

> It is not possible to expect anybody else to change. Your

> boundaries have to be kept up by *you* -- if you depend on

> somebody else respecting them, then you really don't have a

> boundary (because you're letting somebody else call the

> shots).

[Guest guest]

<Staying in touch with who I am and what I want. Being

able to change her rude demand into the poorly-worded request and

respond to that: " I hear that you would like me to change my

clothes; I'm not going to honor that request. " >

This is something I aspire to also, R. The problem for me has been

that my reaction to my mother's nuttiness is a childish one--I feel

such pain and rejection that I am not yet able, in that moment, to

remember that she may be asking for something and not aware that she

has lied, attacked or whatever. Her clumsy way of showing love is

to try to enmesh me in her dramas. I am aiming to recognize this,

so that I can take care of myself but also be a bit of a daughter to

her, or at least a human relationship with real love, even if the

relationship is very limited.

A couple of years ago I started reading books by the Dalai Lama

because his perspective on conflict (and everything) resonated with

me as truthful and beautiful and constructive, not destructive or

devisive. I would read the chapters on interpersonal conflicts over

and over again, trying to apply his teachings to my relationship

with my mother. The idea that I should be grateful to my mother

because her friction and challenges have prompted me to grow seems

true but is also very hard to swallow. I often ask myself how he

would react to something she has done, and I have rarely felt

successful. But I still think the effort is worthwhile: all human

beings want love and connection, conflict is an opportunity to learn

and practice patience, and you do not have to make yourself

available for abuse. Something in this resonates with what you have

been saying--in my mind it does, anyway. I'm sure some will

disagree. Please take my " religious " comment in the context of my

exploration of the BP conflict. I do not mean it as advice or

anything like that.

TG

[Guest guest]

Thanks, TG, it helps to hear someone else thinking the same way I

do. Not that becoming as calm as the Dalai Lama is a realizable goal

for most of us!

It's been a full week since the big blow-up, and I almost feel normal

again. Working, thinking, without feeling mired in anger. I haven't

bought the workbook yet - the bookstore was out of it - but I

remembered something from SWOE: " I didn't cause it, I can't control

it, I can't cure it; get out of her way; get on with my life " . It's

helpful. Even if this diagnosis isn't exactly right - it helps me

disengage from her stuff, and that's important. It makes me feel

less crazy, less childish, more able to be who I like to be.

I'm not sure what " loving " someone with a mental illness comes down

to, but perhaps it's this: not taking their rages personally, not

wishing constantly that I had a normal mother, not letting her

problems interfere with my ability to have fun, do my work, enjoy my

relationships. She is who she is, whether it's BPD or ultra-

conservative, matriarchal, whatever. I take what works, ignore the

rest.

> This is something I aspire to also, R. The problem for me has been

> that my reaction to my mother's nuttiness is a childish one--I feel

> such pain and rejection that I am not yet able, in that moment, to

> remember that she may be asking for something and not aware that

she

> has lied, attacked or whatever. Her clumsy way of showing love is

> to try to enmesh me in her dramas. I am aiming to recognize this,

> so that I can take care of myself but also be a bit of a daughter

to

> her, or at least a human relationship with real love, even if the

> relationship is very limited.

[Guest guest]

Hi, Hope,

I appreciate your response. I think you're missing one point: that

I don't " know " that my Mom is bpd. I suspect it, but I'm not a

trained therapist. I do know that our relationship is conflicted.

> It's not your job to teach her

> how to behave,

Well, in most " ordinary " relationship, it IS my job to teach someone

how to behave _towards_me, in how I set limits and consequences.

>and it's also probably not possible for you

> to teach her that.

> There are also resources about how to communicate with

> bpds... to " train " them... read up on DEAR and PUVAS on

> bpdcentral.com and in SWOE...

Actually I meant to ask - the guidelines mentioned this, but I

couldn't find PUVA or DEAR on bpdcentral. Would you mind finding a

link?

>but if I understand

> correctly, these are not going to " get " you the caring,

> loving mother you always wanted... they are going to help

> you get some messages across from you to her. Not change

> her into somebody who isn't borderline.

That's assuming she is. Or that she is all the time.

> If walking away works for your sister, but is not

> comfortable for you, that is perfectly alright!!

Well, my point is that it DOESN'T work for my sister. I think she's

bpd herself, in fact worse than my Mom, so it has bad connotations

for me.

> Being rude

> is way beyond it being " just a way " to express yourself --

> it is mean!!!

Thanks for saying this. I'm not sure I agree 100%, but I do agree

in a " I'm not comfortable doing it myself " kind of way. The analogy

that comes to mind is work - it's not just acceptable, but it is the

job of a supervisor to tell an employee that their clothes will risk

them their job. I think you and I would say that " family hanging

out " and " job " are very different things - but my Mom comes from a

culture where they're very similar.

> I also think it is a-okay if she doesn't understand why you

> are walking away from her.

Maybe you missed my point. The point is, she can sniper a comment at

any point, and then be perfectly " normal " . With kids, the idea is

that you respond immediately to something they did, with a time-out

or a consequence, and they associate the consequence with their

action. With my Mom, she is simply too dense to get it. It almost

feels abusive - like telling a crying baby " if you keep crying, I

won't talk to you " . The crying baby has no understanding of

causality, nor do they really have much control over their crying.

If that analogy sounds ridiculous, as in why would I want to be

around a crying baby that isn't mine and is never going to grow up -

well, that's what I wonder, also. I think the point is - I either

need to accept her AS IS, sniper-comments and all, or walk away.

Would you agree?

Also - re: living with my Mom, the bizarre thing is - I RAN out of

home when I was 17, the only kid to move out for college, and then

at 21 asked that no one give her my phone number, etc. And I

certainly had major reservations when I did move back in - but I

remember a year ago, someone was telling me about an inexpensive-ish

place to live, and I said " actually, I like living with people, I

like the house, I think we have a healthy give-and-take... " I

suppose this was pre-split, but overall it's just mind-bending.

[Guest guest]

I'm curious to know what you think.

>

> maybedave

>

I think this sounds too much like the communication one would use

with a normal, caring person. Telling nada how her statements make

me feel would only help her to know what hurts me, so she can keep

doing it. My nada's goal is to cripple through verbal abuse. I

don't think that sort of respectful communication would work with

her and at this point I feel so unsafe around her I'm not willing to

try it.

[Guest guest]

Hope,

I fully agree with you! I had the same thoughts when I read it. A

nada acting like a nut to get and manipulate thinngs to get her way and

holding everyone emotionally hostage because its easier to do that than reflect

inwards on how foolish and hurtfull her behavior ( her adult behavior ) is ,

is not even in the same ballbark as a baby who cries because it is the only

way they are even capable of communicating their needs...and even babies

eventually learn to talk! LOL

I also wondered if the whole all or nothing attitude was black and white

thinking about the situation....

In a message dated 8/5/2004 11:41:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

oikocryst@... writes:

Nope, I don't agree. I think that is a black-and-white

presentation of the situation -- either one or the other.

And I don't think it's okay for a grown woman to be treated

as if she were a crying baby. It's age appropriate for a

baby to cry, but it's not appropriate for an adult.

=====

Hope