Re: SWOE questions - Debbie

[Guest guest]

Hi Debbie,

Have you tried your local library? Another source for borrowing a copy might

be a Woman's Resource Center, YMCA, counseling center, even a college library

in your town.

SWOE Appendices, A p. 235; Causes and Treatment of BPD states that '...many

clinicians...many of their patients believe that BPD almost always stems from a

childhood of physical or sexual abuse. So pervasive is this myth ...'. Goes

on to explain that current research notes that 20-25 percentage of BPs come

from intact families without evidence of severe early stress or trauma ...

Prominent BPD psychiatrist R. Silk (1997), preliminary research suggests

that BPD behavior may be influenced by neurotransmitter disturbances.

I haven't read anything in SWOE that would attribute your mom's BPD to the

incest, or to your birth. Will scan and send privately if find any. I did a

google search first on SWOE, then 'within results' for incest; 56 results

grouping incest and BPD...very few by google standards. Is it possible that

your

nada would have been anyway/was already BP? She has problems with your

siblings; does it seem possible that she didn't 'want' children, under any

circumstances?

Have read enough about BPD to understand that when a mother rejects a child

is not about the child. You have a good heart for caring about her in her old

age; it is her loss that she cannot accept your love.

I think you have fulfilled your promise to your Granny; you have done all

that you have been allowed to do for your mom. IMHO it was not a fair

expectation; you expected to do the work, what was your mom's part of the work?

You are so right, it takes two people to have a relationship. My mom is

verbally abusive to my children, because they are my children. I refuse to have

her in our lives with this punitive behavior, and she insists that I am

wrong...should accept her 'just as she is'...goes into the 'Jesus does', and so

should you...guilt trip. {not going there anymore}

Carol

In a message dated 3/21/04 11:14:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,

foundmy@... writes:

Carol,

I cannot get the book & may not be able to get it for several months. Does

the book have any references for the child product of incest.

I have been doing a lot of checking up on various websites and all I keep

coming up with is that the mother (who has been raised in an area where incest

is

taboo) usually hates said child from such a union. That is the case in my

relationship with my mother.

I cannot reconcile even if I wanted to anymore, now that I am grown up enough

to know & understand her true feelings for me.

Would I try if I could? Probably. I am not one who gives up unless I am sure

I am beating a dead horse. There are 2 reasons that I would try. The first is

that it was a promise to my Granny that I would try. 2nd I am very stubborn

and do not take " NO " for an answer on anything I could do something about. Some

things my conscience will never let me live in peace if I have an inner

conviction that I should or shouldn't do it. Right now I feel damned if I do

Because

then she could never live in peace if I were around her, calling her, or

having anything to do with her at all. I feel damned if I don't because my

mother

is old & none of my siblings are doing squat for her ( I have 5 of them). She

is on oxygen & doing very poorly. I have always had a soft spot in my heart

for the elderly, no matter who they are.

I can understand your repulsion for having anything to do with her. I think

it is instinctive for self-preservation. I will admit the urge to stay away is

very strong no matter what My conscience says. I am happier, calmer, able to

be more loving, and less depressed and grouchy. I have to ask myself, how can

you repair a relationship when only one will admit there is a problem, & only

one would be willing to work on it? How is it possible without self denial of

someone's feelings? I am not referring to the BP parent either. I cannot for

the life of me see any other way it could happen.

Debbie

SWOE questions

Am rereading Stop Walking On Eggshells...again; speed-read the first

time...trying to understand this time. It must be sinking in; I'm feeling

uncomfortable, like I'm not working hard enough...am 'put off' by chapters

pertaining to

repairing the relationship.

So many references seem directed at 'getting along with' while protecting

myself from the BP, in my case nada. I don't want to get along with her,

actually do not want to see her, hear her voice, even be at the same

functions/places

where she might turn up.

I accept that I trigger her, while not blaming myself for her rages, and am

not willing to be the object of her 'all bad' splitting anymore. Is this

feeling something that I should be working on/out of? At this point in my

recovery

I really just want her to leave me alone. Is this OK, healthy, or denial?

Thanks, Carol

[Guest guest]

*** I haven't yet. I live in a small town and I would be embarrassed to ask

for books on this. But I suppose I could do a Library computer search. The

only thing I have to do is get over the fear of everyone in town knowing long

enough to check it out.

[it is hard to have any privacy in small towns. Tell the librarian that you

are taking an 'online' course...is actually true if you think of it that way

:-) ]

***She told me point blank that she never wanted any of us. But she also

pointed out explicitly that I reminded her of the incest. She also said that I

looked like him and had many of his mannerisms. I didn't understand what she

meant by that as I was only between 6 & 8 years old. I didn't ask much at the

time other than was she sure that I was his. She swore to me he was. Perhaps she

lied to me or perhaps not. I tend to believe her mainly because of the things

that she told me between the ages of 6 and 24. Then at age 24 she changed her

story. I guess it was because I just couldn't place the bad man with my

granddaddy. I do know that she had such hatred for me at birth that she refused

to

feed me unless her mother was there making her feel guilty. When I came home

to live with them Granny had to make her take care of me. But most of the time

Granny and my aunt took care of me. She wouldn't even get out of the bed to

take me potty in the night. SO I potty trained my own self at 18 months of age.

I couldn't stand being smelly and wet.

[she is cold, isn't she. Did she say this to her other children, did they

hear that? Debbie, did your Granny ever confirm to you that he/sounds like her

husband/was your father? Your nada could well have lied.

My nada rejected me at birth too...my gramma/dad's mom/raised me for the

first two and a half years of my life. Nada wouldn't feed me, gramma had a

child

my age and nursed me too. Nada had eaten only strawberries during her

pregnancy...I weighed 3 pounds at birth, with a structural heart defect. Nada's

'beauty' was all about being thin and blonde, still is. Don't you know that is

a

pretty sight today...71 year old skinny 'blonde'...bloated by steroids. She

is unhappy about her body, no concern at all for her spirit...I am going to

hell she tells me...am very glad her power is only in her head, lol]

*** Actually my Granny gave my mother the same speech. I really believed

that mother would honor Granny's last wishes. After all one is supposed to

honor the last wish of the dying person. No such luck, if anything she became

worse after Granny's death. I have to say that Granny had to be my mother's

conscience since her (my mother's) birth. But you know how it is, When the cats

away

the mice will play. Yes, I do think that mother was BP from birth. She was 2

before she could hold her head up, she was almost 4 before she could walk. She

was a sickly child who had a violent temper when she didn't get her way. If

she couldn't get away with hurting the other person, she had no qualms about

clawing her own self up. The strange thing is that mother never did this stuff

while we were growing up. Perhaps it was because she had 6 beating posts to

choose from? To be honest I don't even know if I love her any more. After she

hit

my kid and husband in the back, I kind of lost anything I felt for her except

duty. I cannot feel anything but pity for her now that she really & truly has

no kids,altho she gave birth to 6 of them. I think that it upsets her that it

came when she was no longer young & beautiful.

[i do not love my mother; never bonded with her, she never cared for me,

always has tortured me emotionally accusing me of 'not liking' HER when I was

young. I don't even feel duty ... pity, nor guilt; my nada has taken

everything/everyone important to me, away from me in my FOO. Never, not even

once, has

she hugged/kissed/complimented me, not in my entire life. She is alone with

herself now...natural consequences seems to me. I feel like my nada has

betrayed my grandpa; her sisters say, and it seems true to me, that nada always

wanted to be the 'special' child ... she was born on his/her father's birthday,

but his 'favorite' child, the one he brought presents to was the baby sister/who

also was a very sick/fragile child, has epilepsy she never forgave him for

that, my aunts say]

***Well, my mother knows better than to pull Jesus into it. If she did that

crap I would just bring up everything I have found out about her & what I

have seen her do. Of course it pisses her off for any of us to mention how it

felt to have a whore for a mother. According to the rules of her mind, she never

did such a thing & we were just dirty minded kids. Well, all I have to say is

a woman doesn't bring a man home from the bar, sleep practically naked, & then

not have sex. Especially when people who know what it sounds like can hear.

It was quite shameful to listen to the whole town talk.

Regardless of whether I ever saw her again, none of my kids (my nephew

included) will never see her or talk to her again. IT really ticks her off when

I mention all the things I learned from Granny & refuse to give her credit for

it. TO be honest, Enjoy telling her about the past and also what my granny

taught me, because its a little revenge for what she put all of us through. I

guess I am a little vindictive & I don't like that about myself. But D--N it

does feel good sometimes.

Debbie

[ Maybe it is that we know too much Debbie. Being the one responsible for

'cleaning up' after nada, I know more than she would have me know. I never told

my dad about the times we were locked out of the house when she had

'company'...put to bed at 5 pm when he was working 2nd shift...told that 'daddy'

doesn't love us... You're right! It feels so d**n good to vent this foul old

stuff. Carol]

[Guest guest]

Debbie -

Is it possible that the part that is happy, calm, and loving IS your

conscience - and the part that you refer to as " concience " is guilt?

Free

I will admit the urge to stay away is very strong no matter what My

conscience says. I am happier, calmer, able to be more loving, and

less depressed and grouchy.

[Guest guest]

Free,

The only thing I know is that when I don't listen to this particular voice I

screw up royally. But yes, it is definitely guilt thats for sure. Its the voice

that sends me real strong messages to contact someone because that particular

person is going to die within 6 mos or less. It is usually a relative or

something along those lines. Or if I do something or not do something it will

have bad results for me. I use to have clear visions, but I lost them 10 years

ago. Now its just feelings. Yes, I know that is weird. It was for me too. That

is what I call my conscience, because it keeps me knowing right from wrong.

Sometimes it is in conflict with my self will & that is not a good thing. I

guess I should have used conscience and self will to begin with. But most people

I know just don't understand that concept.

Debbie

Re: SWOE questions - Debbie

Debbie -

Is it possible that the part that is happy, calm, and loving IS your

conscience - and the part that you refer to as " concience " is guilt?

Free

I will admit the urge to stay away is very strong no matter what My

conscience says. I am happier, calmer, able to be more loving, and

less depressed and grouchy.

Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner

" Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via

1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to:

http://www.BPDCentral.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Debbie,

Have you tried your local library? Another source for borrowing a copy might

be a Woman's Resource Center, YMCA, counseling center, even a college library

in your town.

*** I haven't yet. I live in a small town and I would be embarrassed to ask

for books on this. But I suppose I could do a Library computer search. The only

thing I have to do is get over the fear of everyone in town knowing long enough

to check it out.

SWOE Appendices, A p. 235; Causes and Treatment of BPD states that '...many

clinicians...many of their patients believe that BPD almost always stems from

a

childhood of physical or sexual abuse. So pervasive is this myth ...'. Goes

on to explain that current research notes that 20-25 percentage of BPs come

from intact families without evidence of severe early stress or trauma ...

Prominent BPD psychiatrist R. Silk (1997), preliminary research

suggests

that BPD behavior may be influenced by neurotransmitter disturbances.

I haven't read anything in SWOE that would attribute your mom's BPD to the

incest, or to your birth. Will scan and send privately if find any. I did a

google search first on SWOE, then 'within results' for incest; 56 results

grouping incest and BPD...very few by google standards. Is it possible that

your

nada would have been anyway/was already BP? She has problems with your

siblings; does it seem possible that she didn't 'want' children, under any

circumstances?

***She told me point blank that she never wanted any of us. But she also

pointed out explicitly that I reminded her of the incest. She also said that I

looked like him and had many of his mannerisms. I didn't understand what she

meant by that as I was only between 6 & 8 years old. I didn't ask much at the

time other than was she sure that I was his. She swore to me he was. Perhaps she

lied to me or perhaps not. I tend to believe her mainly because of the things

that she told me between the ages of 6 and 24. Then at age 24 she changed her

story. I guess it was because I just couldn't place the bad man with my

granddaddy. I do know that she had such hatred for me at birth that she refused

to feed me unless her mother was there making her feel guilty. When I came home

to live with them Granny had to make her take care of me. But most of the time

Granny and my aunt took care of me. She wouldn't even get out of the bed to take

me potty in the night. SO I potty trained my own self at 18 months of age. I

couldn't stand being smelly and wet.

Have read enough about BPD to understand that when a mother rejects a child

is not about the child. You have a good heart for caring about her in her old

age; it is her loss that she cannot accept your love.

I think you have fulfilled your promise to your Granny; you have done all

that you have been allowed to do for your mom. IMHO it was not a fair

expectation; you expected to do the work, what was your mom's part of the

work?

*** Actually my Granny gave my mother the same speech. I really believed that

mother would honor Granny's last wishes. After all one is supposed to honor the

last wish of the dying person. No such luck, if anything she became worse after

Granny's death. I have to say that Granny had to be my mother's conscience since

her (my mother's) birth. But you know how it is, When the cats away the mice

will play. Yes, I do think that mother was BP from birth. She was 2 before she

could hold her head up, she was almost 4 before she could walk. She was a sickly

child who had a violent temper when she didn't get her way. If she couldn't get

away with hurting the other person, she had no qualms about clawing her own self

up. The strange thing is that mother never did this stuff while we were growing

up. Perhaps it was because she had 6 beating posts to choose from? To be honest

I don't even know if I love her any more. After she hit my kid and husband in

the back, I kind of lost anything I felt for her except duty. I cannot feel

anything but pity for her now that she really & truly has no kids,altho she gave

birth to 6 of them. I think that it upsets her that it came when she was no

longer young & beautiful.

You are so right, it takes two people to have a relationship. My mom is

verbally abusive to my children, because they are my children. I refuse to

have

her in our lives with this punitive behavior, and she insists that I am

wrong...should accept her 'just as she is'...goes into the 'Jesus does', and

so

should you...guilt trip. {not going there anymore}

Carol

***Well, my mother knows better than to pull Jesus into it. If she did that

crap I would just bring up everything I have found out about her & what I have

seen her do. Of course it pisses her off for any of us to mention how it felt to

have a whore for a mother. According to the rules of her mind, she never did

such a thing & we were just dirty minded kids. Well, all I have to say is a

woman doesn't bring a man home from the bar, sleep practically naked, & then not

have sex. Especially when people who know what it sounds like can hear. It was

quite shameful to listen to the whole town talk.

Regardless of whether I ever saw her again, none of my kids (my nephew

included) will never see her or talk to her again. IT really ticks her off when

I mention all the things I learned from Granny & refuse to give her credit for

it. TO be honest, Enjoy telling her about the past and also what my granny

taught me, because its a little revenge for what she put all of us through. I

guess I am a little vindictive & I don't like that about myself. But D--N it

does feel good sometimes.

Debbie

[Guest guest]

getevenpersevere@... wrote:

> ... current research notes that 20-25 percentage of BPs come

> from intact families without evidence of severe early stress or trauma ...

> Prominent BPD psychiatrist R. Silk (1997), preliminary research

suggests

> that BPD behavior may be influenced by neurotransmitter disturbances.

Yes, neurotransmitter disturbances plus BPD's brains are 'wired'

wrong.

- Edith

[Guest guest]

*** Yes, she is very cold. She never told my siblings, but she did tell

me that in front of my oldest daughter. My daughter became very angry about

it, but held her tongue. The part that got my daughter was that mother had a

very big smile on her face when she said it.

{you know that sort of stuff caused my kids to fear nada. I never 'vented'

at home, held most of it in...so they had little first hand experience with her

till they got older. I haven't let my FOO be alone with my boys...my FOO

believes in harsh spanking...and I raised my kids to feel confident in

challanging/asking questions...the kind of stuff that gets you bruised in my

FOO.}

Wow! thats the same length of time I lived with my grandparents. Mother

didn't dare not eat healthy stuff with Granny around. Granny would have beat her

tail for her. I can remember the first time I said water instead of wa-wa. I

had just been given a glass of water and had a drink. I turned away and

practiced in my mind. Then I went to the frig, banged on it and said water.

Granny

had a fit over me having said it plainly. She told mother to get me a glass of

water. Now, keep in mind that I truely didn't want a drink of water, I just

wanted to say the word like they did. Granny told mother to get me a glass of

water. Mother refused. Granny told her that if she didn't get me some water she

would beat her butt for her. Mother stomped into the kitchen and got me some

water, saying that I wouldn't drink it. I lifted that glass up to my mouth and

drank it because I knew someone would get into trouble if I didn't. I had no

idea that mother was my mother I thought she was my sister who didn't like me.

{my dad wanted to move to a bigger city; when they left they took me. My

gramma 'knew' that my parents were taking me out of pride/shameful to abandon a

child, and was always very loving with me, told me even then that I was

'precious' to her; she 'saved' my sanity.}

[i do not love my mother; never bonded with her, she never cared for me,

always has tortured me emotionally accusing me of 'not liking' HER when I

was

young. I don't even feel duty ... pity, nor guilt; my nada has taken

everything/everyone important to me, away from me in my FOO. Never, not

even once, has

she hugged/kissed/complimented me, not in my entire life. She is alone

with

herself now...natural consequences seems to me. I feel like my nada has

betrayed my grandpa; her sisters say, and it seems true to me, that nada

always

wanted to be the 'special' child ... she was born on his/her father's

birthday,

but his 'favorite' child, the one he brought presents to was the baby

sister/who

also was a very sick/fragile child, has epilepsy she never forgave him for

that, my aunts say]

*** Honestly I think your mother was colder than mine at least for a while.

My Granny be her be nice to me around her. Right before Granny died, I told

her about a lot of the stuff. My Granny told me " If I had known back then what

was going to happen, she would not have taken you with her. " My mother also

had a little sister that she was extremely Jealous of and was mean to. She got

caught though because Aunt Pat screamed really loud. Because mother was so

mean, they bought my aunt candy & she didn't have to share. There was nothing

wrong with my aunt physically or mentally, by the way. This aunt helps my mother

out financially all the time. Behind her back mother calls her all sorts of

names and says she hates her. Mother is just using her & my aunt knows this,

but she doesn't want mother living with her so she puts out money to keep her

happy home safe. I guess mother will always be jealous of her sister because she

thinks my aunt has all kinds of money, has been married to the same man since

I was 2 years old, and has had 2 daughters to marry well.

{ nada is jealous of all her siblings...the 'mean' sister, she is. She

accused her middle sister of having an affair with dad 40 years ago, while her

sister lay on her deathbed; this a couple of years ago...you can't even die

without a nada-crisis in this family}

*** You are probably right all the way. She locked us out of the house

several times when we were real little. I looked in through the window and saw

her

and her first husbands brother making out. Then I went on to play. He never

knew that mother had fooled around on him until about 5 years ago. Then about a

year ago on his birthday, I told him that his middle son wasn't his, it was

his brothers. It was the truth, but I didn't realize that he didn't know it

before I told him. He had said something about how good mother was. I asked him

how he could say that when " Brother " wasn't his. He was devastated. It was the

first that anyone had told him about it. However mother bragged to my siblings

about how " brother " belonged to uncle because husband #1 pissed her off. Of

course she brags to everyone how my nephew is really my husbands son

(bloodwise). My husband said " Let her believe what she wants and say what she

wants.

Since she believes it & she hates my kids so much she will leave them all the

hell alone. " He is not my husbands. But no one will bother with our raising him

because they think that he is. Otherwise, I would have all kinds of trouble

because he is my oldest half-sisters child. (I call them all my sisters and

brothers, but in all actuality I have no full blood siblings.) They tried to

cause

trouble when I first got him & I picked up a 2 x 4 & told them to come on.

Later on mother told them he was my husbands. So now, they leave us alone. Its

wonderful!

Debbie

{I've had so little to say, even to my dad, for 30 years. I've sort of

reconciled myself to the fact that they 'choose' to make one another miserable.

He

does the 'whatever she says' routine; anything to keep her out of his 'face'.

My dad, N as he is, has scars on his face from her scratching attacks.

Typically, she would attack him over some imagined slight, and accuse him of

battery. Carol

[Guest guest]

[it is hard to have any privacy in small towns. Tell the librarian that you

are taking an 'online' course...is actually true if you think of it that way

:-) ]

*** I guess I could do that. It may not be so embarrassing.

[she is cold, isn't she. Did she say this to her other children, did they

hear that? Debbie, did your Granny ever confirm to you that he/sounds like

her

husband/was your father? Your nada could well have lied.

*** Yes, she is very cold. She never told my siblings, but she did tell me

that in front of my oldest daughter. My daughter became very angry about it, but

held her tongue. The part that got my daughter was that mother had a very big

smile on her face when she said it.

My nada rejected me at birth too...my gramma/dad's mom/raised me for the

first two and a half years of my life. Nada wouldn't feed me, gramma had a

child

my age and nursed me too. Nada had eaten only strawberries during her

pregnancy...I weighed 3 pounds at birth, with a structural heart defect.

Nada's

'beauty' was all about being thin and blonde, still is. Don't you know that

is a

pretty sight today...71 year old skinny 'blonde'...bloated by steroids. She

is unhappy about her body, no concern at all for her spirit...I am going to

hell she tells me...am very glad her power is only in her head, lol]

Wow! thats the same length of time I lived with my grandparents. Mother didn't

dare not eat healthy stuff with Granny around. Granny would have beat her tail

for her. I can remember the first time I said water instead of wa-wa. I had just

been given a glass of water and had a drink. I turned away and practiced in my

mind. Then I went to the frig, banged on it and said water. Granny had a fit

over me having said it plainly. She told mother to get me a glass of water. Now,

keep in mind that I truely didn't want a drink of water, I just wanted to say

the word like they did. Granny told mother to get me a glass of water. Mother

refused. Granny told her that if she didn't get me some water she would beat her

butt for her. Mother stomped into the kitchen and got me some water, saying that

I wouldn't drink it. I lifted that glass up to my mouth and drank it because I

knew someone would get into trouble if I didn't. I had no idea that mother was

my mother I thought she was my sister who didn't like me.

[i do not love my mother; never bonded with her, she never cared for me,

always has tortured me emotionally accusing me of 'not liking' HER when I was

young. I don't even feel duty ... pity, nor guilt; my nada has taken

everything/everyone important to me, away from me in my FOO. Never, not even

once, has

she hugged/kissed/complimented me, not in my entire life. She is alone with

herself now...natural consequences seems to me. I feel like my nada has

betrayed my grandpa; her sisters say, and it seems true to me, that nada

always

wanted to be the 'special' child ... she was born on his/her father's

birthday,

but his 'favorite' child, the one he brought presents to was the baby

sister/who

also was a very sick/fragile child, has epilepsy she never forgave him for

that, my aunts say]

*** Honestly I think your mother was colder than mine at least for a while. My

Granny be her be nice to me around her. Right before Granny died, I told her

about a lot of the stuff. My Granny told me " If I had known back then what was

going to happen, she would not have taken you with her. " My mother also had a

little sister that she was extremely Jealous of and was mean to. She got caught

though because Aunt Pat screamed really loud. Because mother was so mean, they

bought my aunt candy & she didn't have to share. There was nothing wrong with my

aunt physically or mentally, by the way. This aunt helps my mother out

financially all the time. Behind her back mother calls her all sorts of names

and says she hates her. Mother is just using her & my aunt knows this, but she

doesn't want mother living with her so she puts out money to keep her happy home

safe. I guess mother will always be jealous of her sister because she thinks my

aunt has all kinds of money, has been married to the same man since I was 2

years old, and has had 2 daughters to marry well.

[ Maybe it is that we know too much Debbie. Being the one responsible for

'cleaning up' after nada, I know more than she would have me know. I never

told

my dad about the times we were locked out of the house when she had

'company'...put to bed at 5 pm when he was working 2nd shift...told that

'daddy'

doesn't love us... You're right! It feels so d**n good to vent this foul

old

stuff. Carol]

*** You are probably right all the way. She locked us out of the house several

times when we were real little. I looked in through the window and saw her and

her first husbands brother making out. Then I went on to play. He never knew

that mother had fooled around on him until about 5 years ago. Then about a year

ago on his birthday, I told him that his middle son wasn't his, it was his

brothers. It was the truth, but I didn't realize that he didn't know it before I

told him. He had said something about how good mother was. I asked him how he

could say that when " Brother " wasn't his. He was devastated. It was the first

that anyone had told him about it. However mother bragged to my siblings about

how " brother " belonged to uncle because husband #1 pissed her off. Of course she

brags to everyone how my nephew is really my husbands son (bloodwise). My

husband said " Let her believe what she wants and say what she wants. Since she

believes it & she hates my kids so much she will leave them all the hell alone. "

He is not my husbands. But no one will bother with our raising him because they

think that he is. Otherwise, I would have all kinds of trouble because he is my

oldest half-sisters child. (I call them all my sisters and brothers, but in all

actuality I have no full blood siblings.) They tried to cause trouble when I

first got him & I picked up a 2 x 4 & told them to come on. Later on mother told

them he was my husbands. So now, they leave us alone. Its wonderful!

Debbie