Re: Stubborn lessons

[Guest guest]

Dan,

I know what you mean w/that one. The kid I was referring to, my

godson, had that same problem with his mom. She would set a limit

and then let him negotiate something else. 8 year olds do NOT want

to learn how to negotiate. They want to learn that 'yes means yes

and no means no'. They like boundaries and need them for their own

protection- emotionally and physically- and it took me a while of

working w/him for him to realize not all women are like that- able

to be pushed over if he keeps pushing. I knew that if I was pushed

over, it was to his detriment...and so I just stood my ground even

when it wasn't fun- and man that kid was smart but unable to fully

understand the impact of his intellect and ability to articulate-

kids can say mean things at times.

I didn't see him as much stubborn as given intermittent

reinforcement which is the worst kind in some situations. Its like

the stalker who calls a house 100 times and the person doesn't

answer but then on the 101st call they answer. All that teaches is

that 101 times is how much it takes, which is why I never picked up

nadas calls a few years back when we went on no talk zone and she

called and called and called.

I do admit though that I use intermittent reinforcement with my son

in some ways- mainly his crying. I pick him up every time he cries

but not always just when he starts crying. Meaning sometimes I can't

b/c I'm doing dishes or b/c I know he's just cranky and sleepy and

expressing himself. He knows, however, he will never be allowed

under my roof to simply cry it out as a baby- won't happen on my

watch as I don't believe in that theory what-so-ever. And so he's

got levels of cries now to let me know how and why he's crying and I

know which ones need immediate attention and when he's just tired or

giving me a heads up that he's gonna get pissy in a minute and I

pick him up before then. I don't want to teach him to cry it out b/c

all that teaches is that no one cares when he's upset- doesn't make

the reason he's upset go away just his voice and that's to much like

the bp world if you ask me. So consequently he doesn't cry near as

much as he did as a newborn- doesn't need to b/c his needs are being

met. But the past two weeks have been torture as he's cutting

teeth...torture to hear and torture b/c I can do so little for him

besides hold him and be there for him when he is in pain (man my

back is killing about now too). I can't wait until a few more months

when I can teach him babysigns to express himself- have taught a

couple and he recognizes them but isn't able to use them yet.

My nada can't stand that I am so attentive, but I think as an

attentive parent then the whole negotiating thing can't work just

b/c you are plugged in and doing what's best for the kid at that

stage of their development. The moms I've seen do that typically

have a lot of guilt they're operating off of and I've seen dads do

it too...the whole quality vs quantity time thing.

Okay, rambling again.

Kerrie

> << She said that when her daughter was like that, she just needed

> extra love and needed that stubborness to be loved out of her. >>

>

> Kerrie, I'm sure that would work. It even works with my cat. He

> gets in a strange mood and growls, bites, and slashes. When I get

> tired of fighting with him I just pick him up and hold him tight

and

> he gets over it and purrs. I guess I am positively reinforcing

his

> strange moods.

>

> My ex-wife and my present wife both gave stubborn lessons to the

> kids. They would set a limit, and then let the kid argue them out

> of it. The kid had to do a lot of arguing, but he was sure of his

> reward if he persevered. I tried to point out what was going on,

> but it was like talking to a wall.

>

> - Dan

[Guest guest]

When my son was little my mother made the remark that she was

suprised he was such a " good " baby as much as I held him. It never

occured to her that maybe he was a " good " baby BECAUSE I held him a

lot - not in spite of it.

I also remember one time when he started crying and I picked him up

and she said " he was just crying because he wanted to be held. " Like

THAT doesn't count... ???? I should only respond if he is hungry or

wet?

I said - " haven't you ever cried because you wanted to be held? "

She didn't answer.

My mind-set was - well if he wants to be held - hold him.

Seemed simple to me...

Free

> My nada can't stand that I am so attentive....

[Guest guest]

Gree,

I totally hear you. It is like they are so afraid of a

baby 'manipulating' them by expressing their needs. It drives me

nuts as there are many people out ther who aren't bp who feel this

way too- like make sure the baby doesn't come between you as a

couple or manipulate you. That's just not plausible until they're

over a year old in my opinion as well as my doctor's opinion.

Your comment reminded me of nada at Christmas. She watched him for a

couple of hours while we went to the movie...and she's pretty good

with him b/c she knows he only sees her very rarely and she does

better with that...anyway, I left a bottle with her of milk I'd

pumped and told her he feeds about every two hours so when he gets a

bit cranky and he doesn't have a diaper, he's hungry. She said 'two

hours! how long is that gonna last?! " I said " As long as he needs

it!!!! " She was surprised and said " I guess you really love him. " It

was all I could do to contain myself from saying " I guess you DIDN'T

really love us. " if that's such a compromise in her mind.

I try to pick my baby up when he needs it, but honestly as he's

getting bigger, he hurts my back and I dont' pick him up every time

he cries but I will talk to him and let him know I'm there for him

and physically present and rub his hand or something. I just can't

pick him up all the time like when he weighed a bit less. it is too

much and I felt guilty for a while but that's stupid too. As long

as he knows I'll always care when he cries then he'll learn to

understand my not picking him up isn't a rejection thing but rather

a need to express comfort in other ways. He seems okay with it

though I still try to pick him up when I can.

K

>

> > My nada can't stand that I am so attentive....

[Guest guest]

-<<<<<<<-- In ModOasis , " free_spirit_etc "

<free_spirit_etc@y...> wrote:

> When my son was little my mother made the remark that she was

> suprised he was such a " good " baby as much as I held him. It never

> occured to her that maybe he was a " good " baby BECAUSE I held him a

> lot - not in spite of it.

>

> I also remember one time when he started crying and I picked him up

> and she said " he was just crying because he wanted to be held. "

Like

> THAT doesn't count... ???? I should only respond if he is hungry or

> wet?

>

> I said - " haven't you ever cried because you wanted to be held? "

>

> She didn't answer.

>

> My mind-set was - well if he wants to be held - hold him.

>

> Seemed simple to me...

>

> Free

>

>

>

> > My nada can't stand that I am so attentive....>>>>>>>

Free,

Your message bought up a memory and perhaps a connection for me.

When my daughter was born, we lived in an apartment. A neighbor asked

me what was wrong with my baby, because he never heard her cry! This

was a large home converted into apartments, so there were sounds that

traveled. He stated that crying was good for developing her lungs.

This was back when I didn't realize how many people out there

really 'don't have a clue'. I just didn't know what to say to his

statement, although I managed a reply of some sort.

Nada also had strange views. I often heard her talking about

something a baby or child was doing and saying that the baby was

trying to be controlling. The connection is that I guess that is how

she saw her children as well. And we all know that the only one

allowed control is nada.

Nada thought her mother spoiled me by rocking me at night until I

fell asleep. She did this for a week. I estimate this was soon after

I was born. After grandmother left, nada have to give up her sleep

for a night.....she wouldn't pick me up, and my crying kept her awake

all night. But, says nada, smugly, I learned my lesson. And she had

that 'nada look' when she made that statement.

This is the kind of things my nada remembers and shares about my

childhood.

It is heartening to hear about so many KOs who are working so hard at

raising their children with love and understanding and age

appropriate discipline (not punishment).

You moms are doing great.

Sylvia

[Guest guest]

Sylvia,

Thanks for the encouraging words. It is hard, but you bring up a

good point that I take issue with even mainstream society- everyone

thinking the baby is being manipulative/controlling. I just don't

get it. My thought is along the lines of 'Catch a fish for a man and

he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a

lifetime.' In essence, I'd like to teach my child and any future

children to be autonomous and independent so that they won't feel

the need to battle me every single day of their lives for their

autonomy if that makes sense. They will know by simply growing up in

my household that they've got a right to their individual nature

(though that does not of course entitle them to do whatever they

will- but they can think and like and feel according to their own

uniqueness).

Your quote reminded me of something my grandnada said to my cousin's

baby 1 1/2 year old a few years back when we were visiting. I almost

jumped out of my seat, but it wasn't my baby and at the time I

didn't even know about bpd- I just gave a dirty look that said 'shut

up with that crap infront of me' which sometimes works with her in

my presense for some reason. Anyway, the little tyke bumped into one

of her china cabinets and hit his head. He wasn't majorly hurt and

probably more embarrassed than anything and wanting nurturance for

his mistake in misjudging distances. Anyway, grandnada said 'that'll

teach him.' and I wanted to scream 'yeah, he'll learn not to hit the

china cabinet again, but the more important lesson is he'll learn

you do not give a $hit$ when he hurts!!!!'

I don't get it and hope I never fully do as that's never been my

initial reaction to anyone suffering- even when nada suffered

greatly when her mom died and my former step-fada left her at the

same time. I felt bad for her b/c I'm a human being and hate to see

suffering.

Oh well. Your post reminded me of that thing grandnada said and how

society is so concerned about kids manipulating.

Kerrie

> >

> > > My nada can't stand that I am so attentive....>>>>>>>

>

> Free,

>

> Your message bought up a memory and perhaps a connection for me.

> When my daughter was born, we lived in an apartment. A neighbor

asked

> me what was wrong with my baby, because he never heard her cry!

This

> was a large home converted into apartments, so there were sounds

that

> traveled. He stated that crying was good for developing her

lungs.

> This was back when I didn't realize how many people out there

> really 'don't have a clue'. I just didn't know what to say to his

> statement, although I managed a reply of some sort.

>

> Nada also had strange views. I often heard her talking about

> something a baby or child was doing and saying that the baby was

> trying to be controlling. The connection is that I guess that is

how

> she saw her children as well. And we all know that the only one

> allowed control is nada.

>

> Nada thought her mother spoiled me by rocking me at night until I

> fell asleep. She did this for a week. I estimate this was soon

after

> I was born. After grandmother left, nada have to give up her sleep

> for a night.....she wouldn't pick me up, and my crying kept her

awake

> all night. But, says nada, smugly, I learned my lesson. And she

had

> that 'nada look' when she made that statement.

>

> This is the kind of things my nada remembers and shares about my

> childhood.

>

> It is heartening to hear about so many KOs who are working so hard

at

> raising their children with love and understanding and age

> appropriate discipline (not punishment).

>

> You moms are doing great.

>

> Sylvia

[Guest guest]

<<<<<

> Sylvia,

> Thanks for the encouraging words.>>>>>>>

You're Welcome!

<<<<.............In essence, I'd like to teach my child and any

future

> children to be autonomous and independent so that they won't feel

> the need to battle me every single day of their lives for their

> autonomy if that makes sense. They will know by simply growing up

in

> my household that they've got a right to their individual nature

> (though that does not of course entitle them to do whatever they

> will- but they can think and like and feel according to their own

> uniqueness).>>>>>>>

Two things I said to my children that were helpful, and which they

even remember as adults:

1. They were expected to listen to me as their parent, and to

understand that I was responsible for them. And I committed to them

that I would always make decisions based upon what I thought was best

for them. And all of this was open for discussion. I wanted to hear

and understand what they thought and how they felt. I would try to

explain all the possible consequences that might occur due to various

decisions, to teach them how to evalute before acting. But.....if the

occasion ever occurred, that they knew in their heart of hearts that

my decision was not for the best, that they should tell me that, and

act in whatever way they thought was best for them. I also counselled

that they should be prepared for whatever the consequences might be

of doing so. And explained that this is what happens in life. We

make decisions based upon thought and consideration, but we must be

prepared to accept the consequences of those decisions - that is

being responsible. Although I discussed things with them at all

ages, I really stressed this last part as they became teenagers. I

knew that I was still responsible for them, and I also knew that

any 'control' I had was minimal. So I wanted them to understand

about consequences and responsibility.

As adults, both of my children talk freely to me about their lives,

and often call to discuss problems, concerns, ideas. I love it!

2. (And they still bring up this to tease me.) I stressed that

until they were 'fully self-supporting' that I had a right to comment

on the actions they were taking in their life. This was more focused

on their college years. If I was still contributing to them

financially, then I had the right to at least voice my opinion and

have it respectfully considered. As I had considered their opinions

as younger children, they had no problem in listening to me as they

got older.

<<<<<<<> Your quote reminded me of something my grandnada said to my

cousin's

> baby 1 1/2 year old a few years back when we were visiting. I

almost

> jumped out of my seat, but it wasn't my baby and at the time I

> didn't even know about bpd- I just gave a dirty look that

said 'shut

> up with that crap infront of me' which sometimes works with her in

> my presense for some reason. Anyway, the little tyke bumped into

one

> of her china cabinets and hit his head. He wasn't majorly hurt and

> probably more embarrassed than anything and wanting nurturance for

> his mistake in misjudging distances. Anyway, grandnada

said 'that'll

> teach him.' and I wanted to scream 'yeah, he'll learn not to hit

the

> china cabinet again, but the more important lesson is he'll learn

> you do not give a $hit$ when he hurts!!!!'>>>>>

Boy this brought on a memory for me. Another one of nada's stories.

Seems like as a little tyke, I didn't like being told no. (Go

figure!) Nada had an 'expensive' floor lamp, and she was telling

me 'no, no, don't touch'. But I touched anyway, and caused the lamp

to fall over. " Fortunately, " nada says, " the lamp wasn't damaged " .

When she tells this story in front of other people, she has this - ha

ha, I'm going to say something embarassing about Sylvia look. The

last time she told it, to a friend of mine, the friend asked, " And

what about Sylvia, I hope she wasn't hurt? " . Nada didn't get it.

Just gave my friend a blank look. If I had an expensive floor lamp,

and saw a toddler getting too close, I would realize that I could

take the chance or just pick up the toddler and put them somewhere

else so all would be safe.

Wow - Your post gave me alot of memories to mull over.

Be kind and gentle to yourself - Sylvia

[Guest guest]

This brings up a recent memory for me as well. My brother and I were

talking about the compassionate nature of people and when he stated this to

the maternal unit she gasped in rage and became speechless. The idea that

children aren't sinful creatures to be molded was too shocking to

assimilate.

Having said that, she was quite good with us the first few years of our

lives...until we outgrew her emotional age and weren't appendages anymore.

Then the hugging stopped for good.

Re: Stubborn lessons

> -<<<<<<<-- In ModOasis , " free_spirit_etc "

> <free_spirit_etc@y...> wrote:

> > When my son was little my mother made the remark that she was

> > suprised he was such a " good " baby as much as I held him. It never

> > occured to her that maybe he was a " good " baby BECAUSE I held him a

> > lot - not in spite of it.

> >

> > I also remember one time when he started crying and I picked him up

> > and she said " he was just crying because he wanted to be held. "

> Like

> > THAT doesn't count... ???? I should only respond if he is hungry or

> > wet?

> >

> > I said - " haven't you ever cried because you wanted to be held? "

> >

> > She didn't answer.

> >

> > My mind-set was - well if he wants to be held - hold him.

> >

> > Seemed simple to me...

> >

> > Free

> >

> >

> >

> > > My nada can't stand that I am so attentive....>>>>>>>

>

> Free,

>

> Your message bought up a memory and perhaps a connection for me.

> When my daughter was born, we lived in an apartment. A neighbor asked

> me what was wrong with my baby, because he never heard her cry! This

> was a large home converted into apartments, so there were sounds that

> traveled. He stated that crying was good for developing her lungs.

> This was back when I didn't realize how many people out there

> really 'don't have a clue'. I just didn't know what to say to his

> statement, although I managed a reply of some sort.

>

> Nada also had strange views. I often heard her talking about

> something a baby or child was doing and saying that the baby was

> trying to be controlling. The connection is that I guess that is how

> she saw her children as well. And we all know that the only one

> allowed control is nada.

>

> Nada thought her mother spoiled me by rocking me at night until I

> fell asleep. She did this for a week. I estimate this was soon after

> I was born. After grandmother left, nada have to give up her sleep

> for a night.....she wouldn't pick me up, and my crying kept her awake

> all night. But, says nada, smugly, I learned my lesson. And she had

> that 'nada look' when she made that statement.

>

> This is the kind of things my nada remembers and shares about my

> childhood.

>

> It is heartening to hear about so many KOs who are working so hard at

> raising their children with love and understanding and age

> appropriate discipline (not punishment).

>

> You moms are doing great.

>

> Sylvia

>

>

>

> Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner

> " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via

1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to:

> http://www.BPDCentral.com

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I often think that for many of us, the saving grace was that at some

time, some where, by some one, we did experience love. Maybe it was

from a nada or fada, or maybe from someone else. But we had a little

glimpes of what we are now trying to give ourselves. And I am always

grateful for that.

Sylvia

> This brings up a recent memory for me as well. My brother and I

were

> talking about the compassionate nature of people and when he stated

this to

> the maternal unit she gasped in rage and became speechless. The

idea that

> children aren't sinful creatures to be molded was too shocking to

> assimilate.

> Having said that, she was quite good with us the first few years of

our

> lives...until we outgrew her emotional age and weren't appendages

anymore.

> Then the hugging stopped for good.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sylvia,

I like what you used w/your kids and may borrow it some day if you

don't mind.

1 hand typing tonite-lol

i'm putting away all my breakables andsuch when we move next month-

my responsibility, not the baby's.

i've got a motto w/ stuff like that- 'people are always more

important than things. "

that will be a diificult one to battle in this materialistic

society, but that's my values even though i like nice things and

like to take care of them- at the end of the day, you can't takw

them with, so i try to live accordingly.

grandnada, however, thinks u can take w/and has her dress picked out

for all eternity-hmmm.

thanks again!

k

> > Sylvia,

> > Thanks for the encouraging words.>>>>>>>

>

> You're Welcome!

>

> <<<<.............In essence, I'd like to teach my child and any

> future

> > children to be autonomous and independent so that they won't

feel

> > the need to battle me every single day of their lives for their

> > autonomy if that makes sense. They will know by simply growing

up

> in

> > my household that they've got a right to their individual nature

> > (though that does not of course entitle them to do whatever they

> > will- but they can think and like and feel according to their

own

> > uniqueness).>>>>>>>

>

> Two things I said to my children that were helpful, and which they

> even remember as adults:

> 1. They were expected to listen to me as their parent, and to

> understand that I was responsible for them. And I committed to

them

> that I would always make decisions based upon what I thought was

best

> for them. And all of this was open for discussion. I wanted to

hear

> and understand what they thought and how they felt. I would try

to

> explain all the possible consequences that might occur due to

various

> decisions, to teach them how to evalute before acting. But.....if

the

> occasion ever occurred, that they knew in their heart of hearts

that

> my decision was not for the best, that they should tell me that,

and

> act in whatever way they thought was best for them. I also

counselled

> that they should be prepared for whatever the consequences might

be

> of doing so. And explained that this is what happens in life. We

> make decisions based upon thought and consideration, but we must

be

> prepared to accept the consequences of those decisions - that is

> being responsible. Although I discussed things with them at all

> ages, I really stressed this last part as they became teenagers. I

> knew that I was still responsible for them, and I also knew that

> any 'control' I had was minimal. So I wanted them to understand

> about consequences and responsibility.

>

> As adults, both of my children talk freely to me about their

lives,

> and often call to discuss problems, concerns, ideas. I love it!

>

> 2. (And they still bring up this to tease me.) I stressed that

> until they were 'fully self-supporting' that I had a right to

comment

> on the actions they were taking in their life. This was more

focused

> on their college years. If I was still contributing to them

> financially, then I had the right to at least voice my opinion and

> have it respectfully considered. As I had considered their

opinions

> as younger children, they had no problem in listening to me as

they

> got older.

>

>

> <<<<<<<> Your quote reminded me of something my grandnada said to

my

> cousin's

> > baby 1 1/2 year old a few years back when we were visiting. I

> almost

> > jumped out of my seat, but it wasn't my baby and at the time I

> > didn't even know about bpd- I just gave a dirty look that

> said 'shut

> > up with that crap infront of me' which sometimes works with her

in

> > my presense for some reason. Anyway, the little tyke bumped into

> one

> > of her china cabinets and hit his head. He wasn't majorly hurt

and

> > probably more embarrassed than anything and wanting nurturance

for

> > his mistake in misjudging distances. Anyway, grandnada

> said 'that'll

> > teach him.' and I wanted to scream 'yeah, he'll learn not to hit

> the

> > china cabinet again, but the more important lesson is he'll

learn

> > you do not give a $hit$ when he hurts!!!!'>>>>>

>

> Boy this brought on a memory for me. Another one of nada's

stories.

> Seems like as a little tyke, I didn't like being told no. (Go

> figure!) Nada had an 'expensive' floor lamp, and she was telling

> me 'no, no, don't touch'. But I touched anyway, and caused the

lamp

> to fall over. " Fortunately, " nada says, " the lamp wasn't damaged " .

> When she tells this story in front of other people, she has this -

ha

> ha, I'm going to say something embarassing about Sylvia look. The

> last time she told it, to a friend of mine, the friend asked, " And

> what about Sylvia, I hope she wasn't hurt? " . Nada didn't get it.

> Just gave my friend a blank look. If I had an expensive floor

lamp,

> and saw a toddler getting too close, I would realize that I could

> take the chance or just pick up the toddler and put them somewhere

> else so all would be safe.

>

> Wow - Your post gave me alot of memories to mull over.

>

> Be kind and gentle to yourself - Sylvia