Guest guest Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 New 2 BPD Hi and welcome, first I'd like to commend you on your great compassion and intelligence, you are comprehending some difficult information for someone so young! I wish I would have known about this at your age. here's my vitals: 1-Female 2-43 -I also HIGHLY suspect my mother suffers from BPD, my dad NPD/BPD 4-65/70-Living 6-I recently learned of BPD four years ago after my therapist observed a session with my mom, dad, me and my sister. I have a question. How do you get someone who you feel is suffering from BPD, to see that there is a problem and to get help? And this is the 6 million dollar question. You really can't get her into therapy, the only thing you can do is work on yourself and make sure you avoid all of the pitfalls. I've tried knocking my head against the wall trying to get help for my parents, it hasn't worked and I've been at it for 10 years. I'm the dummy on line who keeps trying every angle. I'm nearly convinced that it is hopeless and I've turned over every stone and tried absolutely everything. I'm going to paste a past article for you to read that describes the kinds of BPD mothers and the effect that their behavior might have on you. Therapy for you is highly suggested, as well as reading the other book Understanding The Borderline Mother. It's a difficult diagnosis to wrap your head around. Take it easy and digest slowly. Following are a couple of very helpful articles that have been posted before. I am now directing the help I would like to offer my mother to you because you have asked for it and you validate the experience we have here--these would be the signs you would have to see from your mother that would let you know she is ready for help. welcome, tiki Effect of BPD Behavior on Non-BPs > > What follows is yet another way to look at the way your relationship > with the BP is affecting you. It is based on Ann Lawson's > research, which I introduced in chapter 3. There, I described the four > types of BPs (Queen, Witch, Hermit, and Waif) Ann Lawson > writes about in her book Understanding the Borderline Mother (2000). > > The following exercise summarizes Lawson's research on how each type of > BP affects the non-BP's thoughts, emotions, and actions. I've quoted and > summarized some common responses from non-BPs. I've also noted the > effects of the behavior on children, who are at a much greater risk for > long-term problems from growing up with a BP parent. (If the BP in your > life is a minor child, this section of the book may not be relevant for > you.) > > > - Action Step 17: > > Life with Waif, Hermit, Queen, or Witch > > Review the following descriptions of non-BP thoughts, emotions, and > actions, circle those that apply to you, and add any others that come to > mind. > > The Waif > > Typical Non-BP Thoughts about the Waif's Behavior > - " She desperately needs help, so I must save her, no matter what. " > - " The greater the sacrifice, the more I show I love her. " > - " My needs are not as important as hers. " > - " If I learn enough about BPD, I can heal her. " > > > Typical Emotions Stemming from the Non-BP's Thoughts > - " I like being needed, but sometimes I feel overwhelmed by the BP's > neediness. " > - " I get confused and frustrated when she rejects my help. " > - " Her behavior isn't all that abnormal. I can manage it and so can > the kids. " > - " I feel abused, and my self-esteem wasn't all that high to begin > with. " > > Typical Actions Spurred by the Non-BP's Emotions > - " I try to help, but she turns it down again and again. " > - " If a method for coping with this doesn't work, I plan to keep trying. > It will eventually succeed. " > - " I am unable to protect my children or myself from this behavior. " > > The Effects of Having a Waif Parent > - Children feel angry, afraid and alone. > - Children may feel like failures for not making the BP happy, or they > may keep trying and trying until the parent dies. This enmeshment > (inability to separate) may hinder the grown child's relationships, > which may be fraught with dependency. > - Children may become cynical, angry, and feel manipulated or turn into > overly responsible nursemaids seeking ever elusive approval. > - They learn to believe that life is something to be endured until you > die. > - They find autonomy disconcerting. > > > The Hermit > > Typical Non-BP Thoughts about the Hermit's Behavior > - " Like the BP says, the world is unsafe and I should not risk trusting > people. " > - " I need to protect the BP from the terror of the outside world. " > - " I am a faithful, loyal person and would never leave the BP to fend > for herself. " > > Typical Emotions Stemming from the Non-BP's Thoughts > - " I feel trapped and isolated by the Hermit's fear. " > - " I have trouble trusting and making mistakes because I know the BP > will say, 'I told you so.' " > > Typical Actions Spurred by the Non-BP's Emotions > - " I'm giving up my social life because it's too hard to maintain one > and be a helpful person to the BP, who doesn't want to go out or > make friends. " > - " I will make excuses for the BP, so no one will suspect the real > problems. " > > The Effects of Having a Hermit Parent > - Adult children of Hermits suffer from many maladies stemming from > trapped feelings, such as panic attacks or phobias. > - Children not encouraged to explore and learn can become anxious when > faced with new situations. They may not learn appropriate coping > skills, and may give up control too easily, have a hard time trusting, > and be less capable of naturally moving away from the parent. > > > The Queen > > Typical Non-BP Thoughts about the Queen's Behavior > - " I can't meet this person's needs; my best isn't enough. " > - " Don't I ever get to have any needs? (Better not say that, or the > Queen will leave me.) " > - " Why is everything always about her? " > - " If people only knew what an act the Queen puts on, they'd sure be > shocked. " > > Typical Emotions Stemming from the Non-BP's Thoughts > - Family members who the Queen shames, ignores, or gives superficial > attention to learn that their worth depends on external things (cars, > important titles). > - Non-BPs' self-esteem also suffers. > - Over time, non-BPs feel used, manipulated, and angry at the BP and at > themselves for capitulating so much they no longer recognize > themselves. > > Typical Actions Spurred by the Non-BP's Emotions > - Non-BPs give in to BP wishes because it's easier than maintaining > personal limits. > - Less assertive non-BPs are vulnerable to distortion campaigns, > unwilling or unable to protect themselves or their children. > > The Effects of Having a Queen Parent > - To the Queen, children are a built-in audience expected to give love, > attention, and support when the Queen needs it. Children feel confused > and betrayed when their normal behavior is sometimes punished (according > to the Queen's needs of the moment). Since Queens don't allow or help > children to become individuals (autonomy is discouraged, even punished), > children mimic the behavior they do see: the Queen's. Thus, a new > generation of BPs is born. > - As children grow older, conflict with the Queen increases. Underneath, > these children long for approval, recognition, consistency, and to be > loved unconditionally for who they are, not for what they achieve. > > > The Witch > > Typical Non-BP Thoughts about the Witch's Behavior > - " I feel hurt, betrayed, and abused, and I am too scared or young to > do anything about it. " > - " I will comply with what she wants. Resistance is futile. I will be > assimilated. " > > Typical Emotions Stemming from by the Non-BP's Thoughts > - Fear > - Denial (on the part of those who could protect the victims) > > Typical Actions Spurred by the Non-BP's Emotions > - Tries not to trigger the witch. But her behavior is not really about > the non-BP, so this strategy doesn't work. > - Submits to BP's demands to avoid arousing her cruel behavior. This > often leads to more emotional problems for the non-BP. > - People may try to find surrogate partners, mothers, etc., in a search > for affection, comfort, or safety. However, the longer the Witch > behavior goes on, the less self-esteem the non-BP can muster to see > the situation clearly and feel good enough about himself to search > for a substitute. > - People may blame themselves for the Witch's behavior (e.g., " I > deserved that " ) to avoid admitting that they have (or chose) a person > with such horrific behavior. This is especially common for male > partners of female Witches, who often lack the tools to protect their > children from the Witch's behavior. In effect, the father sacrifices > the children to avoid a confrontation. > > The Effects of Having a Witch Parent > - Children live in terror of Witch's capricious moods; they are the > " collateral damage " of a secret war they did not start, do not > understand, and cannot control. > - Attacks are random, intense, and cruel. Children automatically think > they're at fault and can become shamed, depressed, insecure, > dissociative, and hypervigilant. > - As adults, they may have multiple difficulties with self, > relationships, physical illness, and even post-traumatic stress > disorder. > > > If you go back to the original discussion of these types of BPs in > chapter 3, you can now see how the cycle works. The BP's thoughts lead > to certain feelings, which trigger certain actions. The non-BP > interprets these actions in some way, which may or may not be correct, > but causes various emotions nevertheless, which lead to a variety of > actions in the non-BP. The BP sees these actions and the cycle begins > again. > > You can stop the cycle by changing the way you think about the BP's > actions. When you understand how distorted thinking affects the BP, you > can interpret what's happening in a totally different way. It's not > about you. It's about what's going on inside her. In many cases, you > just happen to be there, the lucky person who gets to be the recipient > of the BP's feeling about herself and her own situation. By the time > your own " feelings " and " thoughts " get reflected back to you, they may > be 180 degrees opposite of your original intention. You can tell the BP > what you are really feeling, but she'll have convinced herself she has > the one and only " truth " because it fits the box she's put herself in. > And the box is too small, is located in the bad part of town, and has > nails in dangerous places. The BP may not be able to think outside the > box. But you can. > > >> > You cannot cure a mental disorder for a loved one.. No one is to blame for the illness. Mental disorders affect more than the person who is ill. Despite your best efforts, your loved one's symptoms may get worse, or they may improve. If you feel extreme resentment, you are giving too much. It is as hard for the parent or sibling to accept the disorder as it is for other family members. Acceptance of the disorder by all concerned may be helpful, but it is not necessary. A delusion has little or nothing to do with reality, so it needs no discussion. Separate the person from the disorder. It is not OK for you to be neglected. You have emotional needs and wants, too. The illness of a family member is nothing to be ashamed of. The reality is that you will likely encounter stigma from an apprehensive public. You may have to revise your expectations of the ill person. You may have to renegotiate your emotional relationship with the ill person. Acknowledge the remarkable courage your sibling or parents may show when dealing with a mental disorder. Generally, those closest in sibling order and gender become emotionally enmeshed while those further out become estranged. Grief issues for siblings are about what you had and lost. For adult children, they are about what you never had. After denial, sadness, and anger comes acceptance. The addition of understanding yields compassion. It is absurd to believe you may correct a biological illness such as diabetes, schizophrenia, or bipolar disorder with talk, although addressing social complications may be helpful. Symptoms may change over time while the underlying disorder remains. You should request the diagnosis and its explanation from professionals. Mental health professionals have varied degrees of competence. You have a right to ensure your personal safety. Strange behavior is a symptom of the disorder. Don't take it personally. Don't be afraid to ask your sibling or parent if he or she is thinking about hurting him- or herself. Suicide is real. Don't shoulder the whole responsibility for your mentally disordered relative yourself. You are not a paid professional caseworker. Your role is to be a sibling or child, not a parent or caseworker. The needs of the ill person do not necessarily always come first. If you can't care for yourself, you can't care for another. It is important to have boundaries and to set clear limits. Just because a person has limited capabilities doesn't mean that you expect nothing of him or her. It is natural to experience many and confusing emotions such as grief, guilt, fear, anger, sadness, hurt, confusion, and more. You, not the ill person, are responsible for your own feelings. Inability to talk about your feelings may leave you stuck or " frozen. " You are not alone. Sharing your thoughts and feelings in a support group has been helpful and enlightening for many. Eventually you may see the silver lining in the storm clouds: your own increased awareness, sensitivity, receptivity, compassion, and maturity. You may become less judgmental and self-centered, a better person Should I stay or should I go now? There have been several posts lately that have touched upon what it means for a non to reach a certain level of recovery. I also just approved a post in which the question was asked whether getting people to leave their BPSO is the only objective of our online community. These are complicated questions, and it is impossible to draw any general conclusion about whether continuing a relationship with someone with borderline traits is a healthy thing. However, I do believe that there are some things that can be said about recovery. A recovered non will have healthy boundaries. Someone with healthy boundaries living with another having borderline traits will be setting batteries and enforcing them frequently. While it is true that most borderlines would consider this unacceptable behavior on the part of the non, it is not a 100 percent outcome. If you set boundaries with your BPSO, and they respond well to them, then I don't see that leaving your relationship is entirely necessary. If on the other hand, the person with borderline traits continues to violate the serious constraints created by your boundaries, this is a form of emotional if not physical abuse. I don't believe that anyone subjected to emotional abuse or abusive of any kind should stay in the relationship unless there are severe extenuating circumstances such as children that need protection. That being said, is almost by definition that someone with borderline traits is going to be abusive. However, is for each non to decide for themselves what abuse is. It is my experience that most nons are poor judges of what constitutes abuse. But each non must reach his or her own conclusions on these serious matters. Recovery consists of more than simply being able to set boundaries. it also means that the non's self-esteem is in repair. Repairing one's self-esteem within the context of an ongoing relationship with someone with borderline traits is an extremely difficult path to tread. The traits of borderline personality disorder themselves create an environment in which the growth of self-esteem is nearly impossible. However, with good mental hygiene, including periods of time away from the borderline it may be possible to rebuild one's self-esteem to some extent. Unfortunately, the nature of the abandonment fear in most borderlines makes it difficult to take a temporary geographical solution. The chaos caused by leaving temporarily can sometimes be very difficult to deal with. Ongoing therapy for yourself is not an option if you're going to stay for any length of time. While each person has to define for themselves what recovery means the them, having good mental health is certainly the goal as I would define it. Someone with good mental health is not going to allow themselves to be constantly violated, ignored or abused. So if our goal is to recover from our experiences in Oz, it will be easier for most people to do this in the context of a geographical situation. That is, if Dorothy stays physically in Oz, her chances of being mentally in Kansas are greatly reduced. There are reasons for staying physically, for example children, particularly in the case of men married to women with borderline traits, there is no excuse for staying in Oz mentally. Sometimes, in our zeal to help others, we often forget that each person has a God-given right to make their own decisions whether we believe them to the correct or not. This extends to the other nons on the list, to our significant others, and to our adult children. When someone says, run away, they are simply stating that in their experience, they were unable to reach a level of recovery they were comfortable with while being physically with their significant other. Whether you can recover without leaving your significant other, is entirely up to you to decide. I which each of you the very best in making the difficult decisions that face you in your lives. I don't pretend that this is easy, leaving was the most difficult thing I ever did, and I would not have been able to do it without a lot of help. I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that everyone should leave their significant other when they have borderline traits, unfortunately it does seem to be necessary in the majority of cases where the non wishes sincerely to recover. There are nons that stay with their significant others with borderline traits for their entire lives. The unfortunate thing about most of these nons is that they for the most part do not recover, but simply exist in a state of limbo or hell depending on the situation. If you are staying, and things aren't getting better, and there are no extreme extenuating circumstances, then you need to seriously evaluate whether you truly are dedicated to your a own personal recovery. Your healing journey may not be the most important thing in your life. This is particularly true if you have a very low self-esteem. Unfortunately, this is all too often the case for nons. So you are trapped in a dog house built by yourself with the help of your significant other. If you don't like it in the doghouse, redecorate or move out. If you like it in the doghouse, them that is your choice. Just remember that there are people who like all kinds of strange things in this world. So in answering the question as to whether our community exist solely to chase people away from their significant others with borderline traits, the answer is no. Our community is, however, emphatically dedicated to the proposition that everyone deserves to be free of abuse, and have a reasonably healthy mental outlook on life. In our experience, this does most often happen when the non breaks off the relationship. It is an unfortunate statistical truth. the definition of a delusion is a belief that does not change even in the face of cold hard facts BOUNDARIES Boundaries are like a second skin, they go in and out depending upon the person you're interacting with, the violations that they may have made in the past, and your relationship with that person. For example, there are sexual boundaries that most people enforce with everyone except their most close intimate significant others. Violation of these boundaries can land you in jail. Boundaries are there to protect you. They have nothing to do with helping the other person. They are for you. A good boundary has some characteristics that are described in exquisite detail on the web site... the following pages are really important, and everyone really should read them... http://www.bpd411.org/brighterfutureboundaries.html http://www.bpd411.org/boundariesintro.html http://www.bpd411.org/boundariessetting.html http://www.bpd411.org/boundariesunhealthy.html This one is about a specific boundary issue... http://www.bpd411.org/boundariesprivacy.html Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to: http://www.BPDCentral.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2004 Report Share Posted February 19, 2004 I went on a web search tonight because I really wanted to know if I was right or wrong about my mother. Sometimes it is so easy to make a misjudgment about someone. What I found is that my mother is more of the PPD ( paranoid personality disorder). Which seems to me to be a combination of Schitzophrenia, Paranoid, and BP. After reading a few of the experiences of these people I really feel sorry for them. At the same time, getting along with them is improbable, if not impossible. They just cannot be trusted and its hard to believe that they can love anyone when they cannot be trusted. There are a few things that puzzle me. My mother doesn't do the Severe gouging of her body, just scratching herself badly and she doesn't do that all the time as she prefers to gouge others both physically and mentally, My mother has the desire to kill, and not just hurt someone else. She also hears voices, and sees things that aren't there. Is this like some of your mothers (Nada's) or am I barking up the wrong tree, so to speak? I am trying to find a way to understand my mother and to find ways of dealing with her without the fireworks. I already know to stay away from her when any of my siblings are around as she can only " Play " mother to one of us at a time. Other wise she cannot deal with it and blows up. She also has her favorites of course and so we definitely run for the hills when her favorite child is with her. I, of course, am the " good " child unless her favorite child is around then I am the scum of the earth. She will side with the other person every time we disagree with each other even if I am right about something. I think there was only one time she ever agreed with me and then the other person was on her sh-- list, so that doesn't count. I am just confused about what I want to do right now. If she cannot help herself, I don't want to abandon her. At the same time, I am keeping my kids away from her at all times. She will never see them again. Perhaps I am worrying for nothing because once she finds out that the kids are not coming around her ever again, she will probably cut me all bad again. She does seem to do better when I am not around and so maybe its better if I do stay out of her life. I guess I had better explain things a little from her point of view as that is only fair. But it is very embarrassing, shameful, and scary to mention (to me). I have had people turn completely against me when I told them this. I am supposedly a product of incest. Since I was 6 yrs old she has told me very many different stories because I had a hard time believing such a thing of my Grand daddy. He denied it on his deathbed. My aunts have confirmed that he tried to do the same to them. But the longest story she has stuck to is that he is my father. Oh, she later told a different story, but I think that was to make my Granny feel better because she was so old and was soon to die. It also brought her favorite brother around to liking her again. She seems to go through spells where she likes me, but really inside her heart she hates me with a passion. Perhaps it was/is a constant reminder of what happened to her and that is why she has always seemed to be so exceptionally wishful that I was dead. I just wish I knew which way to turn. Last night I had a crying spell. I am out of my anti-depressants so that may be it. I just started thinking about things and wishing so badly that things could be different. I feel that in some ways this group is good for me, and in some ways its bad for me. The good ways is that it gives me friends who understand what its like to have a parent like that. The bad way is that it makes me think of stuff, I really do not want to think about right now. As a kid, I can remember being made to lay down to take a nap no matter where I was. It was usually on the bare floor at my aunts house. I would lay under that chair and have these imaginary talks with my step-dad and I would lay under there and cuss him out. I know my mother heard me because she was sitting in the chair I was laying under, but she never acknowledged that it was happening. I was crying about that last night. Knowing that no matter how bad he hurt me mentally or physically she didn't care. I wonder now if she didn't enjoy every minute of my abuse, especially since she started doing it to me herself after he left her. she didn't even leave him when He tried to molest me. I guess she really didn't give a damn. Oh she gave it lip service, but nothing else. I am just thinking through writing, so I guess I better get off here. I think that tomorrow I will see if I can find a way to get back into counseling. They stopped taking people who couldn't afford to pay something. I just don't know if they went to full scale or not. If they did, then thats the end of my counseling for good unless I can find another place who will do it on a sliding fee scale or free. Debbie K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Hearing voices and seeing things sounds more like schizophrenia. a desire to kill--oooh, sounds like she is very seriously mentally ill and potentially dangerous. I think this falls into a different category. Keeping children away from her would probably be best and if she crosses the line I think the police should be notified immediately. This sounds extremely serious and I think that this needs professional attention. Her actions sound completely uncontrollable and ill, therefore none can be taken personal, it's not your fault. If she does anything illegal or threatening report her immediately and perhaps she will get the help she needs with a proper assessment and medication. The most important thing is to protect yourself and your children. I don't know what the procedure is to get someone committed, I do know it is very difficult, but it might be information that would be helpful to have in your arsenal. be very very careful. tiki Re: New 2 BPD I went on a web search tonight because I really wanted to know if I was right or wrong about my mother. Sometimes it is so easy to make a misjudgment about someone. What I found is that my mother is more of the PPD ( paranoid personality disorder). Which seems to me to be a combination of Schitzophrenia, Paranoid, and BP. After reading a few of the experiences of these people I really feel sorry for them. At the same time, getting along with them is improbable, if not impossible. They just cannot be trusted and its hard to believe that they can love anyone when they cannot be trusted. There are a few things that puzzle me. My mother doesn't do the Severe gouging of her body, just scratching herself badly and she doesn't do that all the time as she prefers to gouge others both physically and mentally, My mother has the desire to kill, and not just hurt someone else. She also hears voices, and sees things that aren't there. Is this like some of your mothers (Nada's) or am I barking up the wrong tree, so to speak? I am trying to find a way to understand my mother and to find ways of dealing with her without the fireworks. I already know to stay away from her when any of my siblings are around as she can only " Play " mother to one of us at a time. Other wise she cannot deal with it and blows up. She also has her favorites of course and so we definitely run for the hills when her favorite child is with her. I, of course, am the " good " child unless her favorite child is around then I am the scum of the earth. She will side with the other person every time we disagree with each other even if I am right about something. I think there was only one time she ever agreed with me and then the other person was on her sh-- list, so that doesn't count. I am just confused about what I want to do right now. If she cannot help herself, I don't want to abandon her. At the same time, I am keeping my kids away from her at all times. She will never see them again. Perhaps I am worrying for nothing because once she finds out that the kids are not coming around her ever again, she will probably cut me all bad again. She does seem to do better when I am not around and so maybe its better if I do stay out of her life. I guess I had better explain things a little from her point of view as that is only fair. But it is very embarrassing, shameful, and scary to mention (to me). I have had people turn completely against me when I told them this. I am supposedly a product of incest. Since I was 6 yrs old she has told me very many different stories because I had a hard time believing such a thing of my Grand daddy. He denied it on his deathbed. My aunts have confirmed that he tried to do the same to them. But the longest story she has stuck to is that he is my father. Oh, she later told a different story, but I think that was to make my Granny feel better because she was so old and was soon to die. It also brought her favorite brother around to liking her again. She seems to go through spells where she likes me, but really inside her heart she hates me with a passion. Perhaps it was/is a constant reminder of what happened to her and that is why she has always seemed to be so exceptionally wishful that I was dead. I just wish I knew which way to turn. Last night I had a crying spell. I am out of my anti-depressants so that may be it. I just started thinking about things and wishing so badly that things could be different. I feel that in some ways this group is good for me, and in some ways its bad for me. The good ways is that it gives me friends who understand what its like to have a parent like that. The bad way is that it makes me think of stuff, I really do not want to think about right now. As a kid, I can remember being made to lay down to take a nap no matter where I was. It was usually on the bare floor at my aunts house. I would lay under that chair and have these imaginary talks with my step-dad and I would lay under there and cuss him out. I know my mother heard me because she was sitting in the chair I was laying under, but she never acknowledged that it was happening. I was crying about that last night. Knowing that no matter how bad he hurt me mentally or physically she didn't care. I wonder now if she didn't enjoy every minute of my abuse, especially since she started doing it to me herself after he left her. she didn't even leave him when He tried to molest me. I guess she really didn't give a damn. Oh she gave it lip service, but nothing else. I am just thinking through writing, so I guess I better get off here. I think that tomorrow I will see if I can find a way to get back into counseling. They stopped taking people who couldn't afford to pay something. I just don't know if they went to full scale or not. If they did, then thats the end of my counseling for good unless I can find another place who will do it on a sliding fee scale or free. Debbie K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Deborah Kovak wrote that her mother: > ... hears voices, and sees things that aren't there. Is this like some of your mothers (Nada's) or am I barking up the wrong tree, so to speak? Hi Debbie, One has to make the distinction between hallucinations and delusions. *Hallucinations* refer to hearing and/or seeing things that others don't hear and/or see. In other words, these are false perceptions. Whereas, *delusions* refer to false beliefs. Hallucinations and delusions happen to psychotics (eg, paranoia) and are characteristic of DSM-IV Axis I mental disorders. BPDs don't hallucinate but BPDs do have cognitive distortions. Its like info gets twisted on the way into the BPD's brain; plus, the BPD's quickly changing mood can 'color' their perceptions. BPD is currently recognized as a DSM-IV Axis II (personality) disorder. And, of course, there is no 'pure' BPD. And, all BPDs don't self-injure. I've pasted info below about the DSM classification system and you can see that paranoia is an Axis I disorder and BPD is an Axis II disorder. Your mother really needs to be diagnosed. If she is schizophrenic (which is a kind of waste basket category), there are medications that can help. << The DSM is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th ed (1994); American Psychiatric Association; Washington, DC. The latest edition is the DSM-IV, and it is referred to as the " bible " of psychiatric diagnosis. It provides definitions, symptoms and characteristics for mental disorders recognized by clinicians around the world. The DSM-IV calls for clinicians to evaluate individuals on five levels or axes. Axis I identifies mental disorders; Axis II identifies personality disorders and mental retardation. Axis III identifies relevant physical diseases and conditions. Axis IV identifies the individuals psychosocial and environmental issues; and Axis V is used by the clinician to assess an individual's overall functioning based on the 100-point scale called the Global Assessment of Functioning (GAF). Axis I Adjustment Disorders Anxiety Disorders Childhood Disorders Cognitive Disorders Dissociative Disorders Eating Disorders Factitious Disorders Impulse Control Disorders Mood Disorders Psychotic Disorders Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders Sleep Disorders Somotoform Disorders Substance-Related Disorders Axis II Personality Disorders Mental Retardation Axis III General Medical Conditions Axis IV Psychosocial and Environmental Stressors Axis V Global Assessment of Functioning >> I suggest that you contact people at your local chapter of NAMI. For info about NAMI, and to find your local chapter, go to: http://www.NAMI.org Also, take good care of yourself and protect your children from her. We all deserved better. - Edith List Manager & Gal Friday on the WelcomeToOz Family of NonBP Email Support Groups Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 All right, here's my vitals too. Male, 59. Mother BPD, Father NPD (diagnosed by me and my sister, they will never admit there is anything wrong with them). Both of them still living. I learned about BPD about 3 years ago from my sister. << I have a question. How do you get someone who you feel is suffering from BPD, to see that there is a problem and to get help? You can't. You will only beat your head against a wall trying. If they want help they might eventually get it, but all you can do is learn how to protect yourself and your loved ones from them. That is your only chance of helping them, too. If they can't act out by victimizing you they are more likely to realize they need help. - Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Hi! 1-Female 2-30 3-BPD mom, NPD dad (neither diagnosed) 4-she's 60 5-Living 6-I found out about BPD last year, I think it was March > As soon as I began reading the symptoms of > sufferers of BPD's and Non-BPD's I immediately was brought to tears > because I knew this was exactly what my family is dealing with. That's exactly how it happened for me, too - I did a web search on " invalidation " and found the definition of BPD and this list at the same time. It was such a relief and a release for me, I think I cried for two days straight . > I have a question. How do you get someone who you > feel is suffering from BPD, to see that there is a problem and to >get help? Most of the time, those with BPD have to figure out themselves that there is a problem. If you try to point it out, they'll see it as a personal attack and react in kind. My dad once tried to tell my nada to " get professional help " , and she threw a restraining order at him, and then divorced him. LOL okay, well in context he wasn't too kind, but other family members have tried to tell her more gently, and got everything from stony silence to outright rage. There may be others on this list with more positive experiences, but unfortunately I think a lot of us are in the same boat. I don't think my NPD mom will ever get a formal diagnosis - she thinks everyone else has the problem, not her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 Thanks Edith, I will check this web site out later tonight. My mother is on medication and getting counseling. See post entitled " my mother " . She really does see and hear things that are not there. It is most prominent when she isn't taking her medication. We get along pretty well when she is taking her medications as she is supposed to. But she doesn't always take them and I never know when she hasn't. Debbie K. Re: New 2 BPD Deborah Kovak wrote that her mother: > ... hears voices, and sees things that aren't there. Is this like some of your mothers (Nada's) or am I barking up the wrong tree, so to speak? Hi Debbie, One has to make the distinction between hallucinations and delusions. *Hallucinations* refer to hearing and/or seeing things that others don't hear and/or see. In other words, these are false perceptions. Whereas, *delusions* refer to false beliefs. Hallucinations and delusions happen to psychotics (eg, paranoia) and are characteristic of DSM-IV Axis I mental disorders. BPDs don't hallucinate but BPDs do have cognitive distortions. Its like info gets twisted on the way into the BPD's brain; plus, the BPD's quickly changing mood can 'color' their perceptions. BPD is currently recognized as a DSM-IV Axis II (personality) disorder. And, of course, there is no 'pure' BPD. And, all BPDs don't self-injure. I've pasted info below about the DSM classification system and you can see that paranoia is an Axis I disorder and BPD is an Axis II disorder. Your mother really needs to be diagnosed. If she is schizophrenic (which is a kind of waste basket category), there are medications that can help. << The DSM is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th ed (1994); American Psychiatric Association; Washington, DC. The latest edition is the DSM-IV, and it is referred to as the " bible " of psychiatric diagnosis. It provides definitions, symptoms and characteristics for mental disorders recognized by clinicians around the world. The DSM-IV calls for clinicians to evaluate individuals on five levels or axes. Axis I identifies mental disorders; Axis II identifies personality disorders and mental retardation. Axis III identifies relevant physical diseases and conditions. Axis IV identifies the individuals psychosocial and environmental issues; and Axis V is used by the clinician to assess an individual's overall functioning based on the 100-point scale called the Global Assessment of Functioning (GAF). Axis I Adjustment Disorders Anxiety Disorders Childhood Disorders Cognitive Disorders Dissociative Disorders Eating Disorders Factitious Disorders Impulse Control Disorders Mood Disorders Psychotic Disorders Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders Sleep Disorders Somotoform Disorders Substance-Related Disorders Axis II Personality Disorders Mental Retardation Axis III General Medical Conditions Axis IV Psychosocial and Environmental Stressors Axis V Global Assessment of Functioning >> I suggest that you contact people at your local chapter of NAMI. For info about NAMI, and to find your local chapter, go to: http://www.NAMI.org Also, take good care of yourself and protect your children from her. We all deserved better. - Edith List Manager & Gal Friday on the WelcomeToOz Family of NonBP Email Support Groups Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to: http://www.BPDCentral.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 > > I'd like to hear a " Hi " from everyone on this list, I'd like to know > 1 - Your sex, > 2 - Your age, > 3 - If you had a BPD father and/or a BPD mother, > 4 - The age of your BPD parent(s), > 5 - Whether that parent is still alive, and > 6 - How long ago did you first learn about BPD. > > 1 - female 2 - 41 3 - BPD mother 4 - 62 5 - alive 6 - I first learned about BPD last july when my therapist gave me Understanding the Borderline Mother. When I returned it to her 2 weeks later, I told her she could have been a lot more subtle if she had thrown a brick at my head. It was like reading my life's story. Especially the chapters about the witch. The part about the 'turn' and the campaigns of denigration really rang a bell with me. Also, she was very physically abusive. I sometimes read posts on this site about the difference between discipline and abuse. I got hit all over my body, so the line is clear to me. Anyway, keep posting. We all validate one another and I consider the people on this site to be my friends. It's a safe place to talk about something that only us KOs can really understand. I, unlike many others, have a strong support system in place, but only this site gives me the validation I need to help me heal. Love and Blessings Tammy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 > > > > > I'd like to hear a " Hi " from everyone on this list, I'd like to know > > 1 - Your sex, > > 2 - Your age, > > 3 - If you had a BPD father and/or a BPD mother, > > 4 - The age of your BPD parent(s), > > 5 - Whether that parent is still alive, and > > 6 - How long ago did you first learn about BPD. 1 - male 2 - 28 3 - undiagnosed bpd mother 4 - 57 5 - alive 6 - 1.5-2 yrs ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 > > > > > I'd like to hear a " Hi " from everyone on this list, I'd like to know > > 1 - Your sex, > > 2 - Your age, > > 3 - If you had a BPD father and/or a BPD mother, > > 4 - The age of your BPD parent(s), > > 5 - Whether that parent is still alive, and > > 6 - How long ago did you first learn about BPD. 1 - female 2 - 46 3 - mother/possiblity step-dad was also 4 - 61 5 - alive 6 - mentioned to me about a 3 years ago due to similarity to a friends mother. Wasn't told a name for it until I got here about 3 weeks ago. Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to: http://www.BPDCentral.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 > > I'd like to hear a " Hi " from everyone on this list, I'd like to know > 1 - Your sex, > 2 - Your age, > 3 - If you had a BPD father and/or a BPD mother, > 4 - The age of your BPD parent(s), > 5 - Whether that parent is still alive, and > 6 - How long ago did you first learn about BPD. > > I have a question. How do you get someone who you > feel is suffering from BPD, to see that there is a problem and to get > help? Welcome to the board. Here are my answers to your questions: 1 - Female 2 - 58 3 - BPD mother 4 - 83 5 - Living 6 - I learned about BPD about 5 months ago, although I understood that there were mental/emotional problems since childhood. As others have probably explained, it seems to be impossible to get a BPD to see there is a problem and to get help....unless they come to this understanding on their own. They are very unreceptive to this from anyone close to them. Be kind & gentle to yourself - Sylvia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 > - People may blame themselves for the Witch's behavior (e.g., " I > deserved that " ) to avoid admitting that they have (or chose) a person with such horrific behavior. This is especially common for male partners of female Witches, who often lack the tools to protect their children from the Witch's behavior. >>>>In effect, the father sacrifices the children to avoid a confrontation. Egads! There it is. I was sacrificed! > The Effects of Having a Witch Parent > - Children live in terror of Witch's capricious moods; they are the > " collateral damage " of a secret war they did not start, do not > understand, and cannot control. There's that " understanding " stuff again..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2004 Report Share Posted February 20, 2004 > > > > I'd like to hear a " Hi " from everyone on this list, I'd like to know > > 1 - Your sex, > > 2 - Your age, > > 3 - If you had a BPD father and/or a BPD mother, > > 4 - The age of your BPD parent(s), > > 5 - Whether that parent is still alive, and > > 6 - How long ago did you first learn about BPD. 1 Male 2 50 3 BP mother, NP father, and BP wife 4 78 and 87 5 both alive 6 about 2 years ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 1 - female 2 - 52 3 - BPD mother, father obeyed nada 4 - 78 5 - still alive ( & still perfectly healthy, sigh... :-) 6 - learned about BPD 6 months ago My nada is unlikely to ever get help as she has three close co-dependents supporting her illness - my sis, her sis and her sil, who still put up with her nastiness. They've all said many times " it's not her fault... " - but they refuse to complete that thought with *the reason* it's not nada's fault. imo my family's attitude is " it's not her fault but she can't possibly be mentally ill because that would reflect badly on our family " . F, happy voluntary orphan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 > > I'd like to hear a " Hi " from everyone on this list, I'd like to know > 1 - Your sex, > 2 - Your age, > 3 - If you had a BPD father and/or a BPD mother, > 4 - The age of your BPD parent(s), > 5 - Whether that parent is still alive, and > 6 - How long ago did you first learn about BPD. Okay. Maybe I am ready to try this. 1. Female 2. 47 3. BPD is the closest thing that I have found that describes my mother. And KO is the closest thing I have found that describes my experience. 4. 69-70, something like that. 5. Yep. Alive and kicking. 6. Last summer What drew me to learn of BP was having a b/f with a BP ex. When we first started seeing each other there were behaviors I didn't quite understand. He never wanted me to call before 9pm. Yet when I called he was tired. So there was the mixed message of " call me LATER so I will have everything done and be able to just pay attention to you " but when I called he was too tired to talk. The same with seeing him - wait until 9 so he would have everything done - but then he would complain of being tired from seeing me. Finally one day when I called him in the afternoon - he told me I had the wrong number and hung up on me. I thought it was a mistake - and called back. He hung up again. I then found out he did so because his ex-wife was there - and she doesn't " allow " him to have phone calls. He explained how violent she was - and how he was just trying to appease her until she gave up. Having a violent ex myself - I did somewhat understand the crazy ex story - though even then it seemed like if she was going to give up, she would have already done so. They had been divorced around five years already at that time. She is also remarried. But he seemed to think she would give up " soon " and told me he just wanted to try it that way a little while longer - and if it didn't work in a few months - he would try something else. He finally admitted that was why he had me call and come over after 9pm. I asked him why he didn't tell me before. He said " if I had would you have went out with me? " I guess that was red flag time...that he would ask me out knowing he wasn't free to pursue a relationship - and withhold information from me to affect my choice. But he seemed to think things would be better real soon and I really wanted to believe him. That was 2 1/2 years ago. It hasn't worked. He hasn't tried something else. He has made some " progress. He no longer pretends to be asleep when he gets a call - something he did to appease her. And he actually started letting me call earlier this past year. Though at first it was only through what he called " permission through aquiescence " or something like that. In other words - he didn't SAY I could call earlier even when I asked. But he didn't STOP me from calling earlier. He FINALLY gave me VERBAL permission to call earlier - but only after a huge fight about it - where he danced all around - doing everything short of giving me PERMISSION - for hours. So the " victory " seemed very hollow anyway - because it was so HARD for him to give me even that. Of course, that too, was *my fault* because the only reason he didn't want to SAY I could call was because it might upset me when he put me on hold to take HER call. That was one of the improvements too - when he started putting me on hold instead of ending our call to take hers. It is odd - but earlier in the relationship he used to apologize profusely for letting HER affect US. He would tell me *I* shoudn't have to suffer from his former marriage.... that he " should " handle things...and declare he was " working on things " from " his end " to make things better for US. Yet it seems like the longer the relationship went on - the more he blamed ME for being unhappy about the situation. Though he asked for acceptance and patience - it seemed like in the long run that he held THAT against me. The more patient I was - the more he blamed me when I was " impatient. " The more I tried to accept the " way things are " the more angry he got when I asked for more. So the profuse apologies ended. No longer did he seem to feel the need to apologize for not giving me what he had promised to. The promises lessened also. No longer did he seem to feel the need to promise me that things would get better... or the promises got more fuzzy and less defined. Sometimes when I got upset because we have never went out and I could never spend the night.. he would say we are ALMOST there..REAL soon... etc. But he has been saying that for 2 1/2 years. But More and more the focus seemed to shift to ME. Why couldn't *I* just be happy? Why couldn't *I* just accept the way things are. Why couldn't *I* just be patient? Why am *I* so insecure? Why do *I* need reassurance? In the beginning of the relationship he apologized for the *unfairness " to me. Yet later - he didn't seem to SEE the unfairness anymore. Everything had a disclaimer. If asked if he thought any other woman would put up with the same situtation: his response was " They might. " or " It would depend on if they valued the relationship. " etc..etc. When asked wouldn't it bother him if the situation was reversed, and it was *I* who catered to MY ex at HIS expense: his response would be " It probably would but I would try to understand. " Like *I* haven't TRIED to understand?? For 2 1/2 years I tried to understand. Tried to be accepting. Tried to be supportive. Tried to let him do what he needed to do for HIS life! But still *I* would feel horrible for being so selfish. For not being more understanding...yadyadayada.. This past summer I found Oz, looking up info on BPD - trying to understand it all. There I learned about being in Oz.. and Nons..and BP patterns. I also eventually learned that my mother also has a lot of BP tendencies. And most of all I learned that I have, in ways, recreated my childhood - where the BP supposedly " calls the shots, " my needs are pushed aside, (and I am " wrong " to have them - not that they are actually even allowed to interfere with what the BP needs, but because....well, heck..I don't even know why I am not supposed to have needs)...and most of all.. no one (not my father - and not the guy-friend-person) is going to " rock the boat " on my behalf (or their own). And not only are they unwilling to " rock the boat " - they don't want me to either. The odd thing is that I never even ASKED them to rock the boat...I merely ASKED them to ACKNOWLEDGE my needs! To SEE them. TO HONOR that I HAD them. To NOT make them " wrong. " To let it be OKAY that I had needs. And to try to meet my needs in whatever way they could WITHOUT rocking the boat. But even that seemed to be too much to ask. Of course the guy-friend- person thinks he HAS validated my needs because he verbally tells me it is okay to have them. But he is usually mad at me when he says that. His ACTIONS of getting mad when I tried to discuss my needs told me they were wrong. In fact he often DID make them wrong...and then turn around and tell me (in frustration) that it was OKAY to have them...like there was something wrong with ME for being upset.. lots of mixed messages - which I don't seem to handle well.. He rarely ever would talk about his ex. He swears he is just trying to protect himself - and avoid problems " on that end. " Yet he has been more than willing to watch me get sucked in by whirlpools to keep his own boat from rocking. He has been more than willing to " fight " with me repeatedly because he needs to avoid conflict (with her). He has been more than willing to see me suffer - stating helplessly that he can't do anything about it - while he does what he needs to do to appease HER. And he has been more than willing to blame ME for things not going well. And it seems the more I have become aware of the childhood issues - the easier it has been for us BOTH to blame me. As if somehow if I got MY issues resolved the whole mess would straighten out. So he gets to sit there and act like his behavior is perfectly normal and there is something wrong with ME for being so insecure, for not being able to accept his verbal reassurances when his actions speak a different message, for being unable to REALIZE that he IS validating me, etc. etc. etc. I'm not saying my childhood issues don't play into this - because they surely do to the max. But I am saying he doesn't have HIS stuff together either. The major difference is I am willing to face my issues and he is not. He doesn't HAVE issues it seems. He is just doing what any normal person would do...and it is *I* with all the problems. As far as my father goes - I haven't " been there " much. I have mostly only asked him to see my needs without asking. I have NOT pushed the issue, as I did with the guy-friend-person. Something tells me it wouldn't go much better. So there they both sit - trying to keep their boats from rocking...and acting like they are not even in a boat. And here I sit looking at the shore and thinking solid ground looks like a safer bet. Free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2004 Report Share Posted February 21, 2004 Thank you Otwoma. right now it is hard to talk about for some reason. And I don't know why. I have talked about it before in more detail. But I was in a much different place...and still looking desperatley for hope. And I don't think I was hearing myself... or what I said. For all the talking I have done about HIM not listening to me - I have begun to realize I don't even listen to myself. And I have talked about it recently - or talked around it - in very vague terms. For some reason it has been hard to be more specific. And even now - I feel some guilt for " talking bad " about him - yet I have only spoken things that are true. If I can't speak the truth - then what can I speak? The sad thing is I wish they weren't true. I wish it was different. But it is not. One tiny step toward deeper truth, Free > Dear Free, > Although you often reveal your innermost thoughts, this is the most heartfelt posting that you have sent. I knew that your guy friend person was emotionally distant, but I did not understand in what way. Sadly, we all re-create the childhoods that didn't work then in hopes that they will work now. In this creating, we can find our answers. You deserve more than left-over relationship crumbs. In understanding that you've been satisfied with crumbs, you set your life plan towards a full-course dinner. Take care. > Otwoma > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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