Guest guest Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 > > BabaClay -- if everyone felt as passionately as you, this country > > would be much better off. > > The problem is, I feel so passionately about the American democracy > that I can't stand to be there. From Vietnam on up, anything I could > do seemed only to contribute to making things worse. 30 years ago I > could see clearly the problems we are having now with Social > Security, with energy and pollution, even with terrorism. So could > anybody else who read a lot and thought about it. Fat lot of good it > did. > > I heard a neat French word: " voyoucracy " . A coined word meaning > government by rogues. Read Mark Twain and you will realize it is > nothing new. > > - Dan Dan, Great word - LoL. Thorny problem. At least back in Mark Twain's day ppl knew who they were voting for. They couldn't rely on tv for information. Today we have a functionally illiterate, totally apathetic and disinterested puplic. 50% of us don't vote or participate. Maybe it's always been that way. Yes, it's painful to watch. Sometimes I almost think we're getting what we deserve over here, gov't wise, bcs collectively we have the capacity to make changes. The outsourcing complaint is a bit triggering to me. It's like everybody expects " Daddy " to take care of them. I told this friend of mine the jobs going overseas were mostly low wage jobs. Well, he got mad at me, told me in the 90's he was worth 90K and could work anywhere he wanted. So I said " you were being overpaid " . He didn't like that. So I explained how programming was a relatively new technology then, it's highly codified now, and can be done from anywhere. Why should I pay him 90k when I can get the same service for 10k somewhere else? I was just trying to give the rational side to programming friends of mine who (imho) are acting babyish. They think the Government should DO SOMETHING about the fact that some " blue collar " jobs are now exportable. I Dunno. Have you tried finding a blacksmith recently? Or a plumber, or a decent carpenter, or someone to do " fix it " things around the house? How about a decent mechanic? Forget it. You don't see people with vocations complaining. If anything, they tell you they'll " see if they can fit you in 2 weeks from now " and then charge you $90 an hour. It seems we're in a time of economic flux, but I believe the American entrepreneurial spirit will prevail, and new types of technologies/business will be developed. Maybe someday our GDP will be measured by how much we produce rather than consume... heading out for some sun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 LiqSuns, That's is not particularly the rational side; it is *your* side. Obviously you are still working (or perhaps owning). When every single job in America that can possibly be outsourced, is, there will no longer be much of a tax base, and there will be very little middle class. What there will be is a plethora of police, to protect the property of the wealthy, and lots more prisons. Then there will also be a class of 'pentagon workers'. This so-called rational side is an extremely shortsighted one, not looking beyond short term profits, and certainly not considering any social costs. Not to mention the national security issues of having most of the 'smart' jobs done elsewhere. Talk about a dumbed down public! And let's see, you are recommending that all us 50+ year old programmers learn a vocational trade, now that we're beginning to feel the physical effects of getting older? Right. I climb ladders every year; just hope I don't fall off. If you think outsourcing is triggering to *you*, try being on the other side of the equation! Outsourcing is certainly not being limited to blue collar jobs. Investments, insurance, scientific research, software; all are grist for the mill. In Australia, people have to vote by law. There is significant penalty for not voting. As to whether or not it does any good, that is a subject for analysis. They certainly have a more community oriented society. Because globalization has proceeded at a breakneck pace with little to no care for ordinary people's welfare, there is now a huge nationalistic as well as a tribalistic reaction against it. The issues you've raised are off topic, but it's not right for you to just dump these political opinions onto this list with no opposition. Like I said before, try checking out 'Wealth and Democracy' for a educated view of what is happening here economically. Your starry-eyed optimism about the American entrepreneurial spirit overcoming, as well as being inconsistent with the early part of your note, where you contemptuously refer to your fellow Americans as a " functionally illiterate, totally apathetic and disinterested puplic " , is just a pure fantasy. Unless, of course you are content and approving of the continued growth of the plutocracy! And speaking of Dealing with Stress, reading these kind of provocative political opinions (get rid of social security, outsourcing is fine and people who don't like it are 'babies'...yeah, wanting to survive past minimum wage is being *such* a baby, not to mention the bleak feeling of being forced to completely begin again when we should be looking toward retirement) on this list really makes my blood boil! I absolutely am compelled to spend my valuable time responding because I can't bear the thought of people here reading just one side! I can only hope that life gives you a little taste of what you are so cavalierly recommending for others! Perhaps then you may develop some empathy. Best wishes, BabaClay >Dan, Great word - LoL. Thorny problem. At least back in Mark Twain's >day ppl knew who they were voting for. They couldn't rely on tv for >information. Today we have a functionally illiterate, totally >apathetic and disinterested puplic. 50% of us don't vote or >participate. Maybe it's always been that way. Yes, it's painful to >watch. Sometimes I almost think we're getting what we deserve over >here, gov't wise, bcs collectively we have the capacity to make changes. > >The outsourcing complaint is a bit triggering to me. It's like >everybody expects " Daddy " to take care of them. I told this friend of >mine the jobs going overseas were mostly low wage jobs. Well, he got >mad at me, told me in the 90's he was worth 90K and could work >anywhere he wanted. So I said " you were being overpaid " . He didn't >like that. So I explained how programming was a relatively new >technology then, it's highly codified now, and can be done from >anywhere. Why should I pay him 90k when I can get the same service for >10k somewhere else? I was just trying to give the rational side to >programming friends of mine who (imho) are acting babyish. They think >the Government should DO SOMETHING about the fact that some " blue >collar " jobs are now exportable. > >I Dunno. Have you tried finding a blacksmith recently? Or a plumber, >or a decent carpenter, or someone to do " fix it " things around the >house? How about a decent mechanic? Forget it. You don't see people >with vocations complaining. If anything, they tell you they'll " see if >they can fit you in 2 weeks from now " and then charge you $90 an hour. > >It seems we're in a time of economic flux, but I believe the American >entrepreneurial spirit will prevail, and new types of >technologies/business will be developed. Maybe someday our GDP will be >measured by how much we produce rather than consume... > >heading out for some sun > > > > Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner > " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via > 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to: >http://www.BPDCentral.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 Wow! this is becoming a hot topic, meaning hot in that I can feel the 'stress' steaming off my pc - ironically. In so far as this topic goes, I have my own opinions which neither confirm/coincide nor totally oppose any opinions thus expressed on this topic. I kind of like Canada's way of doing things, but that's neither here nor there. My opinion of corporate America is very similar to how I view the internet. It has so many benefits its not even remotely funny- more money, efficiency, information, organization, etc. And yet because corporations are entities and not individuals there is less personal accountability with actions. So it also has been several times (regardless of the message boards- be it poetry, here or even faithbased ones where one would think things would be a bit more peaceful) when I've been online w/people expressing opinions. Sometimes I think b/c people can not see one another and do not always associate the pc w/having genuine people on the other end, there is more candidness that really shouldn't be. Same with corporations. If they saw sometimes the effect of 'group think' on the individual, then some of the more morally developed people would step up (I speak from experience as my dh worked inside Enron as a consultant and saw how things entropied- good people making very bad decisions). I think having an opinion is good and expressing it is a good thing. Thank God we live in a country where we're not shot for doing so. But at the same time, I think whilest expressing our opinions and beliefs we need to recognize there are other people of differing opinions who will read what we write and that there is MUCH room for misinterpretation w/the written word. Politics, Sex and Religion are three topics to be handled with kidgloves. I think a few words have derogatory interpretations that have been plastered on this topic/thread and maybe an apology is in order. But this is also a good thing with our message boards as KOs need sometimes to practice hot topic issues/confrontations in a healthy non-nada/fada setting as it is my experience that we were not allowed to have our own opinions, much less express them in a healthy non-combative way. I've learned that a lot in marriage and its still a work in process, but rule number one for me when engaging in battle w/non-bps is to assume a charitable intention in my opposition- meaning I try to give the other person the benefit of the doubt that they are not trying to destroy me/stress me out by the way they are expressing their opinions. Nothing could be further from the truth when engaging in nada/fada/bp disputes. Best of luck with sorting things/emotions out on this topic. I don't think anyone meant to be offensive but can see, however, how it is offensive. Kerrie > LiqSuns, > > That's is not particularly the rational side; it is *your* side. Obviously > you are still working (or perhaps owning). When every single job in > America that can possibly be outsourced, is, there will no longer be much > of a tax base, and there will be very little middle class. What there > will be is a plethora of police, to protect the property of the wealthy, > and lots more prisons. Then there will also be a class of 'pentagon > workers'. This so-called rational side is an extremely shortsighted one, > not looking beyond short term profits, and certainly not considering any > social costs. Not to mention the national security issues of having most > of the 'smart' jobs done elsewhere. Talk about a dumbed down > public! And let's see, you are recommending that all us 50+ year old > programmers learn a vocational trade, now that we're beginning to feel the > physical effects of getting older? Right. I climb ladders every year; > just hope I don't fall off. > > If you think outsourcing is triggering to *you*, try being on the other > side of the equation! Outsourcing is certainly not being limited to blue > collar jobs. Investments, insurance, scientific research, software; all > are grist for the mill. > > In Australia, people have to vote by law. There is significant penalty for > not voting. As to whether or not it does any good, that is a subject for > analysis. They certainly have a more community oriented society. > > Because globalization has proceeded at a breakneck pace with little to no > care for ordinary people's welfare, there is now a huge nationalistic as > well as a tribalistic reaction against it. > > The issues you've raised are off topic, but it's not right for you to just > dump these political opinions onto this list with no opposition. Like I > said before, try checking out 'Wealth and Democracy' for a > educated view of what is happening here economically. Your starry- eyed > optimism about the American entrepreneurial spirit overcoming, as well as > being inconsistent with the early part of your note, where > you contemptuously refer to your fellow Americans as a " functionally > illiterate, totally apathetic and disinterested puplic " , is just a pure > fantasy. Unless, of course you are content and approving of the continued > growth of the plutocracy! > > And speaking of Dealing with Stress, reading these kind of provocative > political opinions (get rid of social security, outsourcing is fine and > people who don't like it are 'babies'...yeah, wanting to survive past > minimum wage is being *such* a baby, not to mention the bleak feeling of > being forced to completely begin again when we should be looking toward > retirement) on this list really makes my blood boil! I absolutely am > compelled to spend my valuable time responding because I can't bear the > thought of people here reading just one side! > > I can only hope that life gives you a little taste of what you are so > cavalierly recommending for others! Perhaps then you may develop some empathy. > > Best wishes, > BabaClay > > > > > >Dan, Great word - LoL. Thorny problem. At least back in Mark Twain's > >day ppl knew who they were voting for. They couldn't rely on tv for > >information. Today we have a functionally illiterate, totally > >apathetic and disinterested puplic. 50% of us don't vote or > >participate. Maybe it's always been that way. Yes, it's painful to > >watch. Sometimes I almost think we're getting what we deserve over > >here, gov't wise, bcs collectively we have the capacity to make changes. > > > >The outsourcing complaint is a bit triggering to me. It's like > >everybody expects " Daddy " to take care of them. I told this friend of > >mine the jobs going overseas were mostly low wage jobs. Well, he got > >mad at me, told me in the 90's he was worth 90K and could work > >anywhere he wanted. So I said " you were being overpaid " . He didn't > >like that. So I explained how programming was a relatively new > >technology then, it's highly codified now, and can be done from > >anywhere. Why should I pay him 90k when I can get the same service for > >10k somewhere else? I was just trying to give the rational side to > >programming friends of mine who (imho) are acting babyish. They think > >the Government should DO SOMETHING about the fact that some " blue > >collar " jobs are now exportable. > > > >I Dunno. Have you tried finding a blacksmith recently? Or a plumber, > >or a decent carpenter, or someone to do " fix it " things around the > >house? How about a decent mechanic? Forget it. You don't see people > >with vocations complaining. If anything, they tell you they'll " see if > >they can fit you in 2 weeks from now " and then charge you $90 an hour. > > > >It seems we're in a time of economic flux, but I believe the American > >entrepreneurial spirit will prevail, and new types of > >technologies/business will be developed. Maybe someday our GDP will be > >measured by how much we produce rather than consume... > > > >heading out for some sun > > > > > > > > Send questions and/or concerns to ModOasis-owner > > " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs, can be ordered via > > 1-888-35-SHELL () and for the table of contents, go to: > >http://www.BPDCentral.com > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2004 Report Share Posted March 11, 2004 > I think having an opinion is good and expressing it is a good thing. > Thank God we live in a country where we're not shot for doing so. I used to live in the USA. I expressed my opinions and got very angry reactions, just for having opinions. I also got shot at and attacked in other ways, just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. There are countries in the world that have much more freedom than America. I don't mean to keep this OT stuff going, but I was screwed over by America as badly as by Nada. If America hadn't finished the job, I might have been able to recover from the injuries inflicted by Nada. - Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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