Guest guest Posted August 22, 2010 Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 While reports of this nature can be distressing a point is being missed. Allgyer was advertising selling his product to the public, therefore it must be construed that he was selling on a commercial level. When anyone sells a product in this capacity, he/she opens themselves to a higher and different level of scrutiny and law. Lying to the FDA agents does not make it go away. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FDA Agents Invade Amish Farm in PA Kinzers, PA - At 9:40 a.m. last Thursday, February 4, only a few miles from the scene of the Nickel Mines Amish massacre of 2006, another drama against the Amish began as agents of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) came onto the property of Amish farmer Dan Allgyer, without permission, claiming to be conducting an investigation. Agents Schafer and Deborah Haney, from the Delaware FDA office, drove past Allgyer's " No Trespassing " signs and up his driveway almost to his barn, where Allgyer happened to be outside. Allgyer approached the car, the agents got out and Allgyer asked them why they were there. They produced a piece of paper, asked Allgyer if he was Dan Allgyer, which Allgyer confirmed, asked him his middle initial and phone number, entered the information on the paper, told Allgyer they were there to do an inspection and started reading the paper to him, saying it gave them jurisdiction to be there. The agents - Schafer did most of the talking - said they had a right to be there because " you produce food for human consumption. " Dan asked why they believed that and they said, " Well, you have cows. You cannot be consuming all the milk you produce. " They further stated, " If you get a milk truck in to move all this milk you sell milk to the public, therefore we have jurisdiction. " Dan said, " This is a private farm, I do not sell anything to the public. " As they continued to harass him about doing an inspection, Allgyer said, " You can sit in your car. I will call my lawyer. " The agents remained standing. Allgyer called his attorney who advised him to have the agents call him. When Allgyer told them to call his attorney Schafer replied, " You are the owner and you have to speak for yourself. " They pressed him to talk and Schafer asked, " Are you refusing us an investigation? Allgyer replied, " That's not what I'm saying. " They kept repeating, " Are you refusing an investigation? " Allgyer kept saying, " Call this guy " - meaning his attorney. Allgyer said they must have asked him six times. One of them said, " Even if you do not say so, you are still refusing an investigation. " Eventually Schafer said, " If you refuse an investigation will you answer some questions? " Allgyer said, " I'd rather not. " When the agents continued to push him Dan said, " Is that a question? Sheepishly, they said. 'Yes. " Allgyer said, " What did I say about questions?' They replied, " Well we're going to write this up as a refusal to have an investigation and give it to our higher officials. " Dan felt they were threatening him at this point. After that, they got in their car, drove out the driveway and parked on the neighbor's property watching Allgyer. A visitor, Ivan, who had been on the farm, though not part of the conversation, left in his truck soon after, and the FDA agents proceeded to follow him in their car, even when he stopped at a convenience store to use the facilities. After forty or fifty miles, Ivan called 911 and told the police he was being followed. The state police - in two cruisers - pulled the agents over. Ivan pulled over as well. Ivan said the police told him that the agents explained they were FDA agents and they had the right to follow him because they were conducting an investigation on the farm he left. They thought he had product and they wanted samples of the product. Ivan responded by opening the back of the truck and revealing it was empty. The agents photographed the inside of the empty truck and gave Ivan a paper, claiming they had a right to inspect his truck. He told them they were harassing him. The state trooper said they had a right to follow and pull him over but they were in an unmarked car so Ivan would not have had to pull over >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not justifying the actions of the FDA. I personally think the FDA sucks and serves only one master. I believe we should all have access to raw dairy, raw almonds or any other product in a natural state. That is not the issue. The issue is Dan was selling to the public, FDA agents had visited his farm in Feb 6 weeks prior, said they would be back, and because he was selling to the public, knowing the mentality of the FDA, he knew the chances he was taking. Thumbing your nose at the FDA or lying to them just doesn't work, doesn't work with MMS, doesn't work with raw milk. Ppl are working to change this by organizing co ops. Yes, the co ops have been targeted but the co ops, many, just reopen and keep pushing for legal status to be recognized. Ppl are not victims, we attract situations into our lives by the vibration we are offering. Dan had options from his February warning. Sure, pia to get commercial license etc...pia to not ship out of state. So he took the risk. Nice guy, quiet fello, good family man, nice to his livestock...but still he took that risk. There are many things I cannot do with my land even tho I think it is my right, wildlife that I could rehabilitate and release. However, to rehab certain wildlife would require a special license which would put me under the jurisdiction of the USDA. I have friends that went that route and to a one they all said don’t do it, not worth it. They can show up at your home any time they want with no advance warning and never saw a group more steeped in ignorance and pissy attitude. So, even tho in my heart I wanted to do certain wildlife rehab I made the decision not to. There was plenty of other animals needing help without all the hassle of the USDA. I made a choice and so did Dan. We all live with our choices. So victim...no. sucky laws...absolutely. keep the focus on changing laws, not crying victim. Dan knew what was coming, he simply chose to ignore it. Naturally he also had the option to approach this from a higher energy vantage but that might be a bit of a stretch from where he is presently at. As long as we believe in victimhood we are not in a position to reclaim our power. rose >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FDA Issues Warning Letter To Raw Milk Dairy Farmer Submitted by Editor on Fri, 05/14/2010 - 12:32pm. Dick Wanner Lancaster Farming Staff KINZERS, Pa. – About 5 in the morning on April 20, three cars carrying four men and a woman drove the long, narrow lane into Allgyer’s farm, ignoring two “No Trespassing” signs. Allgyer was in his barn as the group entered his property. He remained there, concealed by darkness, while they looked around, but emerged to confront them as they approached his house to knock on the door. He “hollered” — his word — at them. Deborah Haney and Schafer, agents from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration were there, along with two armed federal marshals and a Pennsylvania State trooper from the .800Lancaster barracks. They served Allgyer with a federal search warrant and peppered him with questions. He answered a few — his name, how many cows he had — then refused to answer any more. And so they searched his barn and more; everything but the house. The visit wasn’t a total surprise to Allgyer. About six weeks earlier, Feb. 4, agents Haney and Schafer had pulled into his lane and explained that they were there to perform a routine inspection. He refused. They said they’d be back. Allgyer sells raw milk and, according to a website maintained by EatWellGuide.org, he sells products made from raw milk, including heavy cream, butter and cheeses. The website says delivery is available. Allgyer does not have a raw milk license. Nor is his business, Rainbow Acres Farm, a license holder, according to the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture’s list of the state’s 167 officially sanctioned raw milk producers. And he is not one of the 60 or so producers currently being considered for raw milk licenses by the department’s Bureau of Food Safety and Laboratory Services, according to Chirdon, who heads up that bureau. When agents Schafer and Haney were at the farm in February, they asked Allgyer if he sells food for public consumption. They observed that he had cows and reasoned that he couldn’t possibly consume all the milk he produced. “This is a private farm,” Allgyer told them, “I do not sell anything to the public.” The answer contradicts the description of Rainbow Acres Farms on the EatWellGuide website, a description which appears to have been written by Allgyer. The agents told him that if he does sell food for human consumption, then they have jurisdiction. Allgyer’s dustups with the FDA became a matter of public record when the National Independent Consumers and Farmers Association (NICFA) posted their account of the Feb. 4 noninspection, followed by Allgyer’s dramatic description of the April 20 inspection. You can read them both at www.NICFA.org. They’re the first two items to pop up on the site. In his NICFA description, Allgyer said the group was inspecting coolers that were packed with milk and other food, and taking pictures of the contents. One of the coolers — presumably an ice chest of a size you’d take on a picnic — was marked “Bethesda” and another was marked “Bowie,” both cities in land. When asked if he planned to deliver the chests to those destinations, Allgyer said to the agents, “I told you I won’t answer any questions.” Soon after, the agents left. The marshals and the state trooper had left earlier, according to Allgyer’s report. The next morning, he received a warning letter from Kirk Sooter, director of the FDA Philadelphia district. The warning said that Allgyer was in violation of federal regulations that prohibit “interstate commerce of milk and milk products in final package form for direct human consumption unless they have been pasteurized.” He was given 15 business days, until May 11, to respond to Cherry, the district compliance officer, of the specific steps he had taken to correct the violations. According to Herndon, who is with the FDA press office in Rockville, Md., it’s not uncommon for people served with warning letters to ask for and be granted an extension for compliance. Herndon said by phone that the agency acted because someone in Pennsylvania had alerted them to the possibility that Allgyer was transporting and selling milk to out-of-state customers. A copy of the warning letter was sent to the Pennsylvania Department of Health, but no one in that office knew of the inspection. Nor did the PDA’s Chirdon know who contacted the FDA. Asked if he was aware of Allgyer’s raw milk operation, Chirdon said he has no proof that Allgyer is selling product to Pennsylvania consumers, and without proof his bureau can’t inspect his farm. Allgyer is a member of CARE (Consumer Alliance for Responsible Ecofarming), an organization that started in 2005 with 15 farmers and 85 consumer members. Today, according to Esh, CARE vice president, the organization has 35 to 40 farmers serving between 5,000 and 6,000 consumers. Consumers pay $20 a year to belong to CARE, which is a private buying club, Esh said. As such, he said, the CARE board believes that transactions between consumers and farmers are protected by both federal and state constitutions. Esh said CARE farmers are particular about sanitation, and that they have to maintain minimum standards — higher than those required by the PDA for raw milk sales — to remain in good standing with the organization. He said the group hires its own inspector, and that the farming programs stress sustainable practices. Cows are pastured. Chickens roam free. There are no drugs or hormones used on the animals, and the crops are grown organically. Asked if he thought CARE could serve as a paradigm for the growing movement to connect consumers directly to the farmers who grow their food, Snyder, executive director of the Pennsylvania Association for Sustainable Agriculture, said, “I think so, but raw milk is a challenge. The FDA believes there should be a total ban on raw milk sales, but there are more and more consumers who want raw milk, and there are farmers who want to fill that demand without any interference from the government. “I believe there has to be a middle ground.” Dick Wanner http://www.realmilk.com/happening.html Pennsylvania Raw milk sales are legal on the farm and in retail stores. Raw milk for retail producers must have a permit and can only sell to stores if they have their own packaging operation with labeling and bottling machines. Stores purchasing raw milk from farmers for resale do not ordinarily need a permit. Producers selling raw milk only on the farm do not need bottling equipment because the state permits customers to bring their own containers. The only raw milk product that licensees can sell legally is cheese. According to the Department of Agriculture, this is because the state has a standard of identity regulation only for raw cheese, not for any other raw dairy products. If a dairy product does not have a standard of identity regulation, the Department will not issue a permit for it. Update, Fall 2009: The Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture (PDA) has proposed new regulations to revise its Milk Sanitation code. Of interest to the state’s licensed raw milk farmers is a provision that requires testing at least twice a year for the presence of pathogenic bacteria including salmonella, Listeria monocytogenes, campylobacter, and E. coli O157:H7. Under the proposed regulation, “there may be no pathogenic bacteria present.” If there is any pathogenic bacteria present in the tested milk, the permit holder must immediately stop selling raw milk for human consumption and must not resume selling until there have been two consecutive subsequent tests showing that the raw milk is free from “disease-producing organisms.” The trouble with the proposed regulation is that not all pathogenic bacteria cause illness in humans. A number of Pennsylvania farmers have had their sales suspended in the past few years for a positive pathogen test when there has been no incidence of illness from the consumption of the suspended farm’s milk. There are hundreds, even thousands, of subtypes of a pathogen like Listeria monocytogenes; and many, if not most, of these subtypes are benign. An effort will be made to change the language in the provision to read: “There shall be no positive test for the presence of pathogenic bacteria known to cause illness in humans.” In addition to this revision, an effort could be undertaken to amend the proposed regulations to provide for an exception to raw milk permit requirements for those selling direct to the consumer. The comment period for the proposed regulation was set to expire on September 30. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2010 Report Share Posted August 23, 2010 .....and it is because of people who think like this, that we are so on the verge of losing any individual freedom to choose what we eat and drink and how we choose to live our lives. People have to respect and protect the freedom of others as well as themselves, or all will lose it. --- In , " palulukon " <palulukon@...> wrote: > > While reports of this nature can be distressing a point is being missed. > Allgyer was advertising selling his product to the public, therefore it must > be construed that he was selling on a commercial level. When anyone sells a > product in this capacity, he/she opens themselves to a higher and different > level of scrutiny and law. Lying to the FDA agents does not make it go > away. > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > FDA Agents Invade Amish Farm in PA > > > > > > Kinzers, PA - At 9:40 a.m. last Thursday, February 4, only a few miles from > the scene of the Nickel Mines Amish massacre of 2006, another drama against > the Amish began as agents of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) > came onto the property of Amish farmer Dan Allgyer, without permission, > claiming to be conducting an investigation. Agents Schafer and > Deborah Haney, from the Delaware FDA office, drove past Allgyer's " No > Trespassing " signs and up his driveway almost to his barn, where Allgyer > happened to be outside. Allgyer approached the car, the agents got out and > Allgyer asked them why they were there. They produced a piece of paper, > asked Allgyer if he was Dan Allgyer, which Allgyer confirmed, asked him his > middle initial and phone number, entered the information on the paper, told > Allgyer they were there to do an inspection and started reading the paper to > him, saying it gave them jurisdiction to be there. > > > > The agents - Schafer did most of the talking - said they had a right to be > there because " you produce food for human consumption. " Dan asked why they > believed that and they said, " Well, you have cows. You cannot be consuming > all the milk you produce. " They further stated, " If you get a milk truck in > to move all this milk you sell milk to the public, therefore we have > jurisdiction. " > > > > Dan said, " This is a private farm, I do not sell anything to the public. " > > > > As they continued to harass him about doing an inspection, Allgyer said, > " You can sit in your car. I will call my lawyer. " The agents remained > standing. > > > > Allgyer called his attorney who advised him to have the agents call him. > When Allgyer told them to call his attorney Schafer replied, " You are the > owner and you have to speak for yourself. " > > > > They pressed him to talk and Schafer asked, " Are you refusing us an > investigation? Allgyer replied, " That's not what I'm saying. " They kept > repeating, " Are you refusing an investigation? " > > > > Allgyer kept saying, " Call this guy " - meaning his attorney. > > > > Allgyer said they must have asked him six times. > > > > One of them said, " Even if you do not say so, you are still refusing an > investigation. " > > > > Eventually Schafer said, " If you refuse an investigation will you answer > some questions? " > > > > Allgyer said, " I'd rather not. " > > > > When the agents continued to push him Dan said, " Is that a question? > > > > Sheepishly, they said. 'Yes. " > > > > Allgyer said, " What did I say about questions?' > > > > They replied, " Well we're going to write this up as a refusal to have an > investigation and give it to our higher officials. " > > > > Dan felt they were threatening him at this point. > > > > After that, they got in their car, drove out the driveway and parked on the > neighbor's property watching Allgyer. A visitor, Ivan, who had been on the > farm, though not part of the conversation, left in his truck soon after, and > the FDA agents proceeded to follow him in their car, even when he stopped at > a convenience store to use the facilities. After forty or fifty miles, Ivan > called 911 and told the police he was being followed. > > > > The state police - in two cruisers - pulled the agents over. Ivan pulled > over as well. > > > > Ivan said the police told him that the agents explained they were FDA agents > and they had the right to follow him because they were conducting an > investigation on the farm he left. They thought he had product and they > wanted samples of the product. > > > > Ivan responded by opening the back of the truck and revealing it was empty. > The agents photographed the inside of the empty truck and gave Ivan a paper, > claiming they had a right to inspect his truck. He told them they were > harassing him. The state trooper said they had a right to follow and pull > him over but they were in an unmarked car so Ivan would not have had to pull > over > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > I am not justifying the actions of the FDA. I personally think the FDA sucks > and serves only one master. I believe we should all have access to raw > dairy, raw almonds or any other product in a natural state. That is not the > issue. The issue is Dan was selling to the public, FDA agents had visited > his farm in Feb 6 weeks prior, said they would be back, and because he was > selling to the public, knowing the mentality of the FDA, he knew the chances > he was taking. Thumbing your nose at the FDA or lying to them just doesn't > work, doesn't work with MMS, doesn't work with raw milk. > > > > Ppl are working to change this by organizing co ops. Yes, the co ops have > been targeted but the co ops, many, just reopen and keep pushing for legal > status to be recognized. > > > > Ppl are not victims, we attract situations into our lives by the vibration > we are offering. Dan had options from his February warning. Sure, pia to > get commercial license etc...pia to not ship out of state. So he took the > risk. Nice guy, quiet fello, good family man, nice to his livestock...but > still he took that risk. > > > > There are many things I cannot do with my land even tho I think it is my > right, wildlife that I could rehabilitate and release. However, to rehab > certain wildlife would require a special license which would put me under > the jurisdiction of the USDA. I have friends that went that route and to a > one they all said don't do it, not worth it. They can show up at your home > any time they want with no advance warning and never saw a group more > steeped in ignorance and pissy attitude. So, even tho in my heart I wanted > to do certain wildlife rehab I made the decision not to. There was plenty > of other animals needing help without all the hassle of the USDA. I made a > choice and so did Dan. We all live with our choices. > > > > So victim...no. sucky laws...absolutely. keep the focus on changing laws, > not crying victim. Dan knew what was coming, he simply chose to ignore it. > Naturally he also had the option to approach this from a higher energy > vantage but that might be a bit of a stretch from where he is presently at. > > > > > As long as we believe in victimhood we are not in a position to reclaim our > power. > > > > rose > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > > > > > FDA Issues Warning Letter To Raw Milk Dairy Farmer > > Submitted by Editor on Fri, 05/14/2010 - 12:32pm. > > > > > > Dick Wanner > > Lancaster Farming Staff > > > > KINZERS, Pa. - About 5 in the morning on April 20, three cars carrying four > men and a woman drove the long, narrow lane into Allgyer's farm, > ignoring two " No Trespassing " signs. > > > > Allgyer was in his barn as the group entered his property. He remained > there, concealed by darkness, while they looked around, but emerged to > confront them as they approached his house to knock on the door. > > > > He " hollered " - his word - at them. > > > > Deborah Haney and Schafer, agents from the U.S. Food and Drug > Administration were there, along with two armed federal marshals and a > Pennsylvania State trooper from the .800Lancaster barracks. They served > Allgyer with a federal search warrant and peppered him with questions. He > answered a few - his name, how many cows he had - then refused to answer any > more. And so they searched his barn and more; everything but the house. > > > > The visit wasn't a total surprise to Allgyer. About six weeks earlier, Feb. > 4, agents Haney and Schafer had pulled into his lane and explained that they > were there to perform a routine inspection. He refused. They said they'd be > back. > > > > Allgyer sells raw milk and, according to a website maintained by > EatWellGuide.org, he sells products made from raw milk, including heavy > cream, butter and cheeses. The website says delivery is available. > > > > Allgyer does not have a raw milk license. Nor is his business, Rainbow Acres > Farm, a license holder, according to the Pennsylvania Department of > Agriculture's list of the state's 167 officially sanctioned raw milk > producers. And he is not one of the 60 or so producers currently being > considered for raw milk licenses by the department's Bureau of Food Safety > and Laboratory Services, according to Chirdon, who heads up that > bureau. > > > > When agents Schafer and Haney were at the farm in February, they asked > Allgyer if he sells food for public consumption. They observed that he had > cows and reasoned that he couldn't possibly consume all the milk he > produced. > > > > " This is a private farm, " Allgyer told them, " I do not sell anything to the > public. " > > > > The answer contradicts the description of Rainbow Acres Farms on the > EatWellGuide website, a description which appears to have been written by > Allgyer. > > > > The agents told him that if he does sell food for human consumption, then > they have jurisdiction. > > > > Allgyer's dustups with the FDA became a matter of public record when the > National Independent Consumers and Farmers Association (NICFA) posted their > account of the Feb. 4 noninspection, followed by Allgyer's dramatic > description of the April 20 inspection. You can read them both at > www.NICFA.org. They're the first two items to pop up on the site. > > > > In his NICFA description, Allgyer said the group was inspecting coolers that > were packed with milk and other food, and taking pictures of the contents. > One of the coolers - presumably an ice chest of a size you'd take on a > picnic - was marked " Bethesda " and another was marked " Bowie, " both cities > in land. > > > > When asked if he planned to deliver the chests to those destinations, > Allgyer said to the agents, " I told you I won't answer any questions. " Soon > after, the agents left. The marshals and the state trooper had left earlier, > according to Allgyer's report. The next morning, he received a warning > letter from Kirk Sooter, director of the FDA Philadelphia district. > > > > The warning said that Allgyer was in violation of federal regulations that > prohibit " interstate commerce of milk and milk products in final package > form for direct human consumption unless they have been pasteurized. " He was > given 15 business days, until May 11, to respond to Cherry, the > district compliance officer, of the specific steps he had taken to correct > the violations. > > > > According to Herndon, who is with the FDA press office in Rockville, > Md., it's not uncommon for people served with warning letters to ask for and > be granted an extension for compliance. > > > > Herndon said by phone that the agency acted because someone in Pennsylvania > had alerted them to the possibility that Allgyer was transporting and > selling milk to out-of-state customers. > > > > A copy of the warning letter was sent to the Pennsylvania Department of > Health, but no one in that office knew of the inspection. Nor did the PDA's > Chirdon know who contacted the FDA. > > > > Asked if he was aware of Allgyer's raw milk operation, Chirdon said he has > no proof that Allgyer is selling product to Pennsylvania consumers, and > without proof his bureau can't inspect his farm. > > > > Allgyer is a member of CARE (Consumer Alliance for Responsible Ecofarming), > an organization that started in 2005 with 15 farmers and 85 consumer > members. Today, according to Esh, CARE vice president, the organization > has 35 to 40 farmers serving between 5,000 and 6,000 consumers. > > > > Consumers pay $20 a year to belong to CARE, which is a private buying club, > Esh said. As such, he said, the CARE board believes that transactions > between consumers and farmers are protected by both federal and state > constitutions. > > > > Esh said CARE farmers are particular about sanitation, and that they have to > maintain minimum standards - higher than those required by the PDA for raw > milk sales - to remain in good standing with the organization. > > > > He said the group hires its own inspector, and that the farming programs > stress sustainable practices. Cows are pastured. Chickens roam free. There > are no drugs or hormones used on the animals, and the crops are grown > organically. > > > > Asked if he thought CARE could serve as a paradigm for the growing movement > to connect consumers directly to the farmers who grow their food, > Snyder, executive director of the Pennsylvania Association for Sustainable > Agriculture, said, " I think so, but raw milk is a challenge. The FDA > believes there should be a total ban on raw milk sales, but there are more > and more consumers who want raw milk, and there are farmers who want to fill > that demand without any interference from the government. > > > > " I believe there has to be a middle ground. " > > > > Dick Wanner > > > > http://www.realmilk.com/happening.html > > > > Pennsylvania > > Raw milk sales are legal on the farm and in retail stores. Raw milk for > retail producers must have a permit and can only sell to stores if they have > their own packaging operation with labeling and bottling machines. Stores > purchasing raw milk from farmers for resale do not ordinarily need a permit. > Producers selling raw milk only on the farm do not need bottling equipment > because the state permits customers to bring their own containers. > > > > The only raw milk product that licensees can sell legally is cheese. > According to the Department of Agriculture, this is because the state has a > standard of identity regulation only for raw cheese, not for any other raw > dairy products. If a dairy product does not have a standard of identity > regulation, the Department will not issue a permit for it. > > Update, Fall 2009: The Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture (PDA) has > proposed new regulations to revise its Milk Sanitation code. Of interest to > the state's licensed raw milk farmers is a provision that requires testing > at least twice a year for the presence of pathogenic bacteria including > salmonella, Listeria monocytogenes, campylobacter, and E. coli O157:H7. > Under the proposed regulation, " there may be no pathogenic bacteria > present. " If there is any pathogenic bacteria present in the tested milk, > the permit holder must immediately stop selling raw milk for human > consumption and must not resume selling until there have been two > consecutive subsequent tests showing that the raw milk is free from > " disease-producing organisms. " The trouble with the proposed regulation is > that not all pathogenic bacteria cause illness in humans. A number of > Pennsylvania farmers have had their sales suspended in the past few years > for a positive pathogen test when there has been no incidence of illness > from the consumption of the suspended farm's milk. There are hundreds, even > thousands, of subtypes of a pathogen like Listeria monocytogenes; and many, > if not most, of these subtypes are benign. An effort will be made to change > the language in the provision to read: " There shall be no positive test for > the presence of pathogenic bacteria known to cause illness in humans. " In > addition to this revision, an effort could be undertaken to amend the > proposed regulations to provide for an exception to raw milk permit > requirements for those selling direct to the consumer. The comment period > for the proposed regulation was set to expire on September 30. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2010 Report Share Posted August 23, 2010 .....and it is because of people who think like this, that we are so on the verge of losing any individual freedom to choose what we eat and drink and how we choose to live our lives. People have to respect and protect the freedom of others as well as themselves, or all will lose it. >>>>>>>>>>>. And you have completely missed my point but that's okay... rose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2010 Report Share Posted August 23, 2010 On 2010-08-22 4:43 PM, palulukon <palulukon@...> wrote: > While reports of this nature can be distressing a point is being > missed. Allgyer was advertising selling his product to the public, > therefore it must be construed that he was selling on a commercial > level. When anyone sells a product in this capacity, he/she opens > themselves to a higher and different level of scrutiny and law. Lying > to the FDA agents does not make it go away. True enough... While my personal view is that while - regardless of all of the misinterpretations of the commerce clause by the courts - the government does *not* have the constitutional authority to interfere with private contracts between men and women, the reality is they have usurped it, and they have the guns, so we should all act accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2010 Report Share Posted August 23, 2010 On 2010-08-23 1:39 AM, pwyll_cyan <cyan43@...> wrote: > ....and it is because of people who think like this, that we are so > on the verge of losing any individual freedom to choose what we eat > and drink and how we choose to live our lives. People have to > respect and protect the freedom of others as well as themselves, or > all will lose it. Depends on how you read what rose said... I read it to say essentially the same hing that I said - she wasn't *agreeing* with the usurpation of the power, she was just pointing out the practicality of not waving a red flag in front of a raging bull (I'm sure rose will correct me if I'm wrong and she really is a closet statist)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 23, 2010 Report Share Posted August 23, 2010 Depends on how you read what rose said... I read it to say essentially the same thing that I said - she wasn't *agreeing* with the usurpation of the power, she was just pointing out the practicality of not waving a red flag in front of a raging bull (I'm sure rose will correct me if I'm wrong and she really is a closet statist)... Thanks ...that is exactly what I was saying. If you have an aggressive dog and you continue to poke it eventually will bite. People have to respect and > protect the freedom of others as well as themselves, or all will lose > it. Again, could not agree more. I smoke organic tobacco in a pipe...have for years. I love tobacco. It is a legal (for now) substance. Few are aware of the push by the govt to control tobacco... not the store bought cigs that are filled with more filler crap, waste products, chemicals than I have space to list. , who has a monopoly on tobacco sales noticed a huge decline in sales as they diluted the tobacco content and added more chemicals (the chemicals benefitting 'guess who' companies). So last year our beneficent govt at the behest of raised the tax on loose roll your own tobacco per pound 2200% (24$ per pound). The tax increase on cigarette tobacco per pound rose 158%. The next move by was to put the Native American tobacco sales out of business so they lobbied to pass the PACT act where cigarettes cannot be sent thru the US mail. This act, which passed, violated treaties with the Native Americans, put ppl out of work and impacted reservations that used the revenue to fund programs addressing the needs of their members...but so what right? Ppl that love tobacco are keenly aware that we are social outcast, sinners, so few could care what happens to us. Thing is, what happens to us doesn't stop with us...and we know that. So sure, we need to care about the freedoms for everyone, not just our section of the pie. In the mean time we need to understand the fed agencies we are dealing with and if we want to wave a red flag just be aware that a bull does charge... And find some joy in our days, find ways to reconnect with our own empowerment and spread that message. If I went belly up tonight I'd go with a smile on my face. It beats the heck out of living in fear. I care more about the freedoms of all ppl more than you give me credit for. My motto 'hug a smoker' *wink* rose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 24, 2010 Report Share Posted August 24, 2010 I sell to the same co-ops that Dan does and it appears that what he is in the most trouble for is transportation over state lines of raw products. He has leased his operation to the Rawsome group now, not sure what that is going to do as they were just raided. Business as usual for him. K THE WAY FOOD USED TO TASTE www.LegacyManorFarm.com (land) From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of palulukon Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2010 4:43 PM Subject: RE: [ ] FDA Raids Amish FARM! While reports of this nature can be distressing a point is being missed. Allgyer was advertising selling his product to the public, therefore it must be construed that he was selling on a commercial level. When anyone sells a product in this capacity, he/she opens themselves to a higher and different level of scrutiny and law. Lying to the FDA agents does not make it go away. ___ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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