Re: Tragedy part to...read this because im just going to throw it all away

[Guest guest]

I noticed you never described the look of your SCOBY that you thought

had mold. Just that it was smelly. How did you conclude that what you

had was mold? For me I almost made a terrible mistake with what I

thought was mold but was only brown yeast. I tossed my entire batch of

KT away and almost the SCOBY thinking I had mold. Some wonderful angel

on this board privately emailed me and explained things well and

delivered me from a terrible mistake. I will add that the batch I had

really smelled differently, almost stunk, but smell is relative. Yeast

can smell great, however anyone ever walking through a winery can tell

you there are times the grapes fermenting smells gross, and what I had

smelled almost identical to that.

Now I was able to save my SCOBY, but because I had tossed most of my

KT away I was really worried I would not succeed, since I did not have

any starter left. However, thankfully I had about a cup of KT in the

fridge that I took out and let come to room temperature, but since I

did not have much I had to add vinegar to get a 10 percent starter

solution for my next batch. The vinegar worked just fine, though it

took two batches to get the " right " taste back and I assume that is

because the vinegar must have changed the composition somewhat and it

took a little time to get the yeast back into balance.

So if for some reason you lose or toss your KT you can just use

vinegar and a little KT from the bottle you are currently partaking

from (as long as you did not drink from it directly) to get a starter,

though it will take time to get it tasting right. Two batches is what

it took for me.

With that being said though you have some things in the house that

would definitely cause mold. Also some of your techniques could in

fact be increasing the possibility for mold. And so I really do not

blame you for tossing them, better safe than sorry.

I personally would not culture anywhere near the kitchen, especially

in an older home that lacks proper ventilation. Moisture and smoke are

two things that promote the growth of mold, both of which are in

constant supple in the kitchen because of cooking. Also oil is not

good for the culture and if you fry that oil splatters everywhere, and

even the top of your fridge could have it. I know this because my own

fridge gets sticky dust, and it is not far from my stove.

I also noticed you said you used a cotton handkerchief, that too could

have had mold. I use paper towels, and though I know they are not

environmental friendly the bleach used to treat them inhibits mold. I

leave plenty of space between the towel and the SCOBY so they are

never in contact with each other. But I have read many accounts of how

cotton handkerchief and muslin cheese clothes were causing mold in the

cultures, so I have made a trade off and decided to use the paper towels.

Since you smoke I would get an air filter in the home. I have a Living

Air Classic I bought on eBay. They are expensive, but I have never had

trouble with mold since. My house is 20 years old (no young chicken)

and before I got the filter we had a great deal of trouble in the hose

with mold. There are less expensive ones on the market. I can tell my

Kombucha love my filter, I culture in a cabinet next to it and it

really helps keep the area clean. This specific model increases oxygen

in the air as well so I know it is good for the cultures because they

love oxygen.

Can you find a place in your home that you can keep the smoke away?

Closet, cabinet, or somewhere else? I saw online where someone was

using a large Aquarium he got at a garage sale. He had rigged up a

great " incubator " using a heat lamp and the aquarium for his culture

with really cheap materials.

I am not sure the issue with cleaning the glass container was a

problem. I know many people who use two gallon glass jars and only

clean it out every 3 months. It would depend though on how clean the

utinsils and various other things you used (hands for example) that

you placed inside the container to move your SCOBY were. I always

touch my SCOBY but I scrub my hand very well before doing so.

Good luck on your new batch, I hope it works better.

Kellie

>

> Well I did some more reasearch and I read I shoudl throw it all away.

> I even read that it might have been from the person who gave it to

> me. But I find that odd since he has had his for 14 years. Anyhow, I

> think I would like to see if I can find one from another source. Any

> suppliers in Canada? I live in London, Ontario.

>

> Thanks

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello! Thank you for the advice!

Yes yes yes it was mold. Green, white and fuzzy and it STANK! Like

something rotten.

I have moved the culture to the back room of my apartment and we keep

the door closed when we smoke now. Never cigs though so it isn't

terrible nicotine.

I never realized the cloth could be bad...i already covered it again

with a cloth and wasn't sure if i shoudl be moving it now. Can i just

lay a paper towel over top of it or would that limit too much air flow?

I will look into getting an air filter, but alas I am a poor student,

which is why I live in this crappy apartment hehehe, but i will see

what i can find as that is a great idea.

I got an entirely new culture from the same guy, he is the sweetest

man on earth and said he will give me as many as i need until i can

get it right

Thanks for all your help

Namaste!

> >

> > Well I did some more reasearch and I read I shoudl throw it all away.

> > I even read that it might have been from the person who gave it to

> > me. But I find that odd since he has had his for 14 years. Anyhow, I

> > think I would like to see if I can find one from another source. Any

> > suppliers in Canada? I live in London, Ontario.

> >

> > Thanks

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I would try not to move your culture, but you could just attach the

paper towel with a rubber band.

Yes I have found the people who exchange SCOBY to be the most

wonderful people as well...

Kellie

> > >

> > > Well I did some more reasearch and I read I shoudl throw it all

away.

> > > I even read that it might have been from the person who gave it to

> > > me. But I find that odd since he has had his for 14 years.

Anyhow, I

> > > think I would like to see if I can find one from another source.

Any

> > > suppliers in Canada? I live in London, Ontario.

> > >

> > > Thanks

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

>I never realized the cloth could be bad...i already covered it again

>with a cloth and wasn't sure if i shoudl be moving it now. Can i just

>lay a paper towel over top of it or would that limit too much air flow?

Cloth is not inherently any more prone to creating problems than

paper. Most many people use cloth just fine. And for the thousands of

years that people have been brewing KT, cloth has been working. The only

thing is to make sure that you are using a newly cleaned cloth, don't use

the same one you had, probably don't use that one ever again. be sure that

whatever you use on the top is bound to the vessel with a rubber band or

elastic, for insect control.

>I will look into getting an air filter, but alas I am a poor student,

>which is why I live in this crappy apartment hehehe, but i will see

>what i can find as that is a great idea.

Be careful. Some air filters do more harm than good, especially cheap

ones. I promise you that the smoke you are describing is not a problem for

the culture, ok? I've been brewing a while now. What an air filter might

help you with is the mold spores. But you would need to research and make

sure the air filter you get will actually accomplish that task, and that

you'll be able to afford replacement media on the correct

schedule. OTherwise, the air filter itself will just become another source

of problems in your household.

>I got an entirely new culture from the same guy, he is the sweetest

>man on earth and said he will give me as many as i need until i can

>get it right

I'm so glad you've got that support.

--V

~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

--A.J. Muste

[Guest guest]

I promise you that the smoke you are describing is not a problem for

> the culture, ok?

This is very different from what I have read and from my own

experience. Many places on the web warn about smoke, so I am not sure

why you would say this, can you clarify why you think smoke from

Marijuana is less damaging to the SCOBY than from tobacco? Everything

I have read says smoke in general, from kitchens or smoking is

dangerous to the SCOBY.

Both my parents smoke, one tabacco, the other marijuana (my dad just

can not get out of the 60's lol). Both have had trouble culturing a

SCOBY and the smoke was the trouble in both cases. Once they were able

to get the culture away from smoke and excessive moisture (mom lives

on the coast in WA and dad on the coast in OR)they were able to get a

good SCOBY.

I too would not recommend a cheap filter. My Living Air does not

require filter replacements, but I know many that do. I can not vouch

for others but I know the Living Air is great. I got mine off

eBay...much cheaper than retail, but becareful as you would with

anything you buy there.

thanks,

Kellie

[Guest guest]

I would be careful with the Living Air filters. They are very good air

purifiers, but they product quite a bit of ozone, which could probably

damage a scoby. Ozone oxidizes smoke and mold toxins (and other toxins), but

I would think it wouldn't be good for the bacteria and yeasts in the KT

culture. Anyone else with knowledge or an opinion on this?

Regards,

Dana

-----Original Message-----

From: original_kombucha

[mailto:original_kombucha ] On Behalf Of kelrivas

>> I too would not recommend a cheap filter. My Living Air does not

require filter replacements, but I know many that do. I can not vouch

for others but I know the Living Air is great. <<

[Guest guest]

>I promise you that the smoke you are describing is not a problem for

> > the culture, ok?

>

>This is very different from what I have read and from my own

>experience. Many places on the web warn about smoke, so I am not sure

>why you would say this, can you clarify why you think smoke from

>Marijuana is less damaging to the SCOBY than from tobacco? Everything

>I have read says smoke in general, from kitchens or smoking is

>dangerous to the SCOBY.

First, everything you read on the web is not guaranteed to be accurate. A

lot of the kombucha sites on the web, even the ones recommended by our

listowner, have outdated information on them. Outdated because the West

lacked a longstanding tradition of brewing KT, and our conditions are very

different from traditional peasant brewing, and we have different vessel

options, tea options, sugar options, etc., so people had to relearn the

tradition. Other sites never were correct to begin with, as has been

demonstrated in recent textual analyses. One of the things we do on this

list is sort out the myths. So in general, if you want the latest,

smartest tip on KT, this be the place. And this knowledge is based on

practice, by and large, not theory.

Your warnings to people not to brew in kitchens just do not jibe with

practice. My brews are much happier in my kitchen, and probably 90% of

people brew in their kitchens. It's okay for you to say that is your

experience, but when the experience of the vast majority of brewers doesn't

fit, it's not a good idea to state your experience as a rule.

KT brews usually don't produce good SCOBYs for a few brews, so your folks'

troubles may or may not have been related to smoke or moisture.

The difference is the amount and type of smoke. If someone chainsmokes

cannabis, then that's a lot of smoke. The person mentioned occasional

cannabis smoke being present, and that's not a problem. Tobacco smoke

contains nicotine which is a deadly poison in tiny amounts, and just the

residues on people's hands while handling the culture would destroy

it. While cannabis smoke can be an irritant, it does not contain any

deadly poisons. Someone I passed a SCOBY/starter to brewed a separate

vessel with some cannabis in it, and she just wrote and said it is very

healthy, so there is nothing inherent in cannabis that would kill KT,

whereas quite the opposite is true of tobacco.

--V

~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

--A.J. Muste

[Guest guest]

I have to second that some ganja smoke here and there won't bother the

kombucha. I've had my culture for almost three years and my experience is

that it's harder to stop scobys from forming than it is to get them to form.

In my experience the #1 mistake that people make is using underfermented

kombucha as starter, or trying to brew too big of a batch with little or no

WELL fermented kombucha.

,

When you get your new culture, brew your sweet tea but only brew a quart to

start, let it cool, toss in the scoby and starter tea (if it came with

any) , then let it get really sour (7-10 days), THEN use 1-2 cups of that

along with the scoby to brew your first gallon. If you start this way you'll

succeed without a doubt. Patience.

To keep the mold from establishing again, two coffee filters are a good

cover, but swirling the tea so the top of the scoby(if it's floating) stays

wet with acidic kombucha is the one extraordinary measure that you may take

against it.

Don't worry about disturbing it, if the newly forming scoby sinks it just

doesn't matter. It can make subtle differences in effervesence and alcohol

content but if it sinks don't cry. A new one will start forming pronto.

Vinegar is fine to lower the ph if you don't have some ripe starter tea but

it has nothing to do with a good fermentation other than that.

The starter tea is full of the kombucha microbes and will grow a scoby on

it's own if you wanted. It's as. if not more important than the scoby

itself.

Kombucha is no wimp and doesn't need to be babied.

It's not a touchy thing, it's a hearty beast.

I've left open bottles of unfinished kombucha in dirty places, with dust and

smoke flying, torches running and 1/2 " scobys grew right in the bottle,

healthy as ever.

I had a backup jar that was sitting on the counter for months, I just dealt

with it yesterday and the scoby is over 2 " thick, no joke.

The stuff is rediculous. I like my tea tart (10-15 or more) days and it sure

seems that it keeps my culture very robust.

Once you get it going it takes care of itself.

Relax already,

Beau

>

>

> >I promise you that the smoke you are describing is not a problem for

> > > the culture, ok?

> >

> >This is very different from what I have read and from my own

> >experience. Many places on the web warn about smoke, so I am not sure

> >why you would say this, can you clarify why you think smoke from

> >Marijuana is less damaging to the SCOBY than from tobacco? Everything

> >I have read says smoke in general, from kitchens or smoking is

> >dangerous to the SCOBY.

>

>

> First, everything you read on the web is not guaranteed to be accurate. A

> lot of the kombucha sites on the web, even the ones recommended by our

> listowner, have outdated information on them. Outdated because the West

> lacked a longstanding tradition of brewing KT, and our conditions are very

> different from traditional peasant brewing, and we have different vessel

> options, tea options, sugar options, etc., so people had to relearn the

> tradition. Other sites never were correct to begin with, as has been

> demonstrated in recent textual analyses. One of the things we do on this

> list is sort out the myths. So in general, if you want the latest,

> smartest tip on KT, this be the place. And this knowledge is based on

> practice, by and large, not theory.

>

> Your warnings to people not to brew in kitchens just do not jibe with

> practice. My brews are much happier in my kitchen, and probably 90% of

> people brew in their kitchens. It's okay for you to say that is your

> experience, but when the experience of the vast majority of brewers

> doesn't

> fit, it's not a good idea to state your experience as a rule.

>

> KT brews usually don't produce good SCOBYs for a few brews, so your folks'

> troubles may or may not have been related to smoke or moisture.

>

> The difference is the amount and type of smoke. If someone chainsmokes

> cannabis, then that's a lot of smoke. The person mentioned occasional

> cannabis smoke being present, and that's not a problem. Tobacco smoke

> contains nicotine which is a deadly poison in tiny amounts, and just the

> residues on people's hands while handling the culture would destroy

> it. While cannabis smoke can be an irritant, it does not contain any

> deadly poisons. Someone I passed a SCOBY/starter to brewed a separate

> vessel with some cannabis in it, and she just wrote and said it is very

> healthy, so there is nothing inherent in cannabis that would kill KT,

> whereas quite the opposite is true of tobacco.

>

> --V

>

>

>

>

>

> ~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

> --A.J. Muste

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> When you get your new culture, brew your sweet tea but only brew a quart to

>start, let it cool, toss in the scoby and starter tea (if it came with

>any) , then let it get really sour (7-10 days), THEN use 1-2 cups of that

>along with the scoby to brew your first gallon. If you start this way you'll

>succeed without a doubt. Patience.

Great advice across the board, Beau, I think. I really agree about

starting small on the first batch. I think it's good practice for a solid

beginning. Sure takes patience tho.

> To keep the mold from establishing again, two coffee filters are a good

>cover, but swirling the tea so the top of the scoby(if it's floating) stays

>wet with acidic kombucha is the one extraordinary measure that you may take

>against it.

> Don't worry about disturbing it, if the newly forming scoby sinks it just

>doesn't matter. It can make subtle differences in effervesence and alcohol

>content but if it sinks don't cry. A new one will start forming pronto.

I've heard of this before, and it kind of troubled me because of disturbing

the SCOBY development. But lately I've begun to realize how

inconsequential the SCOBY is in the scheme of things. It little matters if

you have SCOBY development if you also have mold. So now I would add this

suggestion to my list of things to suggest about mold troubles.

> Vinegar is fine to lower the ph if you don't have some ripe starter tea but

>it has nothing to do with a good fermentation other than that.

>The starter tea is full of the kombucha microbes and will grow a scoby on

>it's own if you wanted. It's as. if not more important than the scoby

>itself.

>Kombucha is no wimp and doesn't need to be babied.

>It's not a touchy thing, it's a hearty beast.

This is how it seems to me also.

>I've left open bottles of unfinished kombucha in dirty places, with dust and

>smoke flying, torches running and 1/2 " scobys grew right in the bottle,

>healthy as ever.

Remember how people used to joke about the giant SCOBY in the septic

tank? I finally got mad because new brewers were writing in, actually

frightened of the giant SCOBY, and I very tartly stated that there is no

way the SCOBY could survive in that environment, etc. Well, at some point

after that I had to clean my bathroom sink drain, and what should I find

but SCOBYferous material all intertwined and hanging onto the mechanism for

the built-in stopper (stopper itself is missing). heh. I've been haunted

ever since with the possibility that the SCOBY could somehow glean bits of

what it needs from all the other stuff that goes down the drain, because

even though I basically put my hands over my eyes and got rid of the sink

SCOBY, the fact remains it was hanging onto life there. That's the sink

that KT cream often gets rinsed off into.

> I had a backup jar that was sitting on the counter for months, I just dealt

>with it yesterday and the scoby is over 2 " thick, no joke.

>The stuff is rediculous. I like my tea tart (10-15 or more) days and it sure

>seems that it keeps my culture very robust.

>Once you get it going it takes care of itself.

>Relax already,

>Beau

Great advice, thanks so much.

--V

~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

--A.J. Muste

[Guest guest]

> thing is to make sure that you are using a newly cleaned cloth,

don't use

> the same one you had, probably don't use that one ever again.

I use the same cloth all the time. Sometimes I wash it and iron it

dry and other times I just put it back on. Never have had a problem.

Lizzie

[Guest guest]

Dana the filter seems to work exceptionally for my cultures, my

cultures are located directly under the filter in a linen cabinet.

Originally I had them in a cabinet located underneath my kitchen

counter top, which had more exposure to the kitchen as well as the

sunlight coming from the sliding glass door next to it. I had nothing

but troubles with it there, ever since I moved the cultures they are

flourishing.

One must remember that the filter increases the available usuable

oxygen in the area, a major component in the formation of the culture.

Now with that being said…I would NOT place the filter directly next to

the cultures, and my cultures are ALWAYS in tea with a paper towel

over them, so ozone is not directly coming in contact with the culture.

While I understand your concern, I have had nothing but very GOOD

results from the filter in general in regards to it helping my

culturing process.

Kellie

>

> I would be careful with the Living Air filters. They are very good air

> purifiers, but they product quite a bit of ozone, which could probably

> damage a scoby. Ozone oxidizes smoke and mold toxins (and other

toxins), but

> I would think it wouldn't be good for the bacteria and yeasts in the KT

> culture. Anyone else with knowledge or an opinion on this?

>

> Regards,

>

> Dana

>

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: original_kombucha

> [mailto:original_kombucha ] On Behalf Of kelrivas

>

>

> >> I too would not recommend a cheap filter. My Living Air does not

> require filter replacements, but I know many that do. I can not vouch

> for others but I know the Living Air is great. <<

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> > thing is to make sure that you are using a newly cleaned cloth,

>don't use

> > the same one you had, probably don't use that one ever again.

>

>I use the same cloth all the time. Sometimes I wash it and iron it

>dry and other times I just put it back on. Never have had a problem.

>

> Lizzie

Right, Lizzie, me too. I was suggesting a new cloth for , who has

had a huge mold problem in her vessel. That cloth should not be reused,

even if washed, because of the mold spores in it.

--V

~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

--A.J. Muste

[Guest guest]

>

>

> First, everything you read on the web is not guaranteed to be

>accurate. A lot of the kombucha sites on the web, even the ones

>recommended by our listowner, have outdated information on them.

>Outdated because the West lacked a longstanding tradition of brewing

>KT, and our conditions are very different from traditional peasant

>brewing, and we have different vessel options, tea options, sugar

>options, etc., so people had to relearn the tradition. Other sites

>never were correct to begin with, as has been demonstrated in recent

>textual analyses. One of the things we do on this list is sort out

>the myths. So in general, if you want the latest, smartest tip on

>KT, this be the place. And this knowledge is based on practice, by

>and large, not theory.

I am very aware that not everything you read on the internet is

trustworthy, and I can appreciate the idea that when the original

websites were created that we did not have " all the facts " However I

do value people of the past and their experience as well. I would also

say that I have read quite a bit of mythical speculation here on this

board in the few months I have been here about the growing of the

SCOBY and would tend to trust the experience of people of the past

just as much as I do of the experiences here. I value all of it, but

must come to my own decisions based on my own experience. I would

recommend that people research the process of creating KT through the

web, as well as books and information from countries such as Russia

and Germany who have doctors who have studied its uses extensively.

While we westerners are new comers to the process, there are those who

have extensive experience with it and it should be valued.

> Your warnings to people not to brew in kitchens just do not jibe

>with practice. My brews are much happier in my kitchen, and probably

>90% of people brew in their kitchens. It's okay for you to say that

>is your experience, but when the experience of the vast majority of

>brewers doesn't fit, it's not a good idea to state your experience as

>a rule.

I was not stating my experience as a rule, just what was my own

experience and the experience of those who have published websites

online, as well as those who I know personally who do this. I am not

talking about making tea (brewing tea), but about the actual process

of fermenting the tea and creating another Kombucha culture. I am not

sure one can state that 90% of the people on the board ferment tea in

the kitchen, we would have to take a poll to find that out wouldn't

we? I have not read anything here that indicates that most do it in

the kitchen, in fact from what I read most ferment somewhere else

other than the kitchen, like in a cabinet.

> The difference is the amount and type of smoke. If someone chain

smokes cannabis, then that's a lot of smoke. The person mentioned

occasional cannabis smoke being present, and that's not a problem.

Tobacco smoke > contains nicotine which is a deadly poison in tiny

amounts, and just the > residues on people's hands while handling the

culture would destroy > it. While cannabis smoke can be an irritant,

it does not contain any > deadly poisons. Someone I passed a

SCOBY/starter to brewed a separate > vessel with some cannabis in it,

and she just wrote and said it is very > healthy, so there is nothing

inherent in cannabis that would kill KT, > whereas quite the opposite

is true of tobacco.

I am not sure I would agree here. The effect of cannabis smoke on the

cells of the lungs is very well documented as being as toxic or more

so than that of tobacco. For example this statement below from the

Missouri Department of Health makes me think that if it effects the

cells of the lungs why would it not effect the cells of the Kombucha?

Nicotine is not the only thing detrimental but also tar.

" Can marijuana cause cancer?

Marijuana smoke has been found to contain more cancer-causing agents

than is found in tobacco smoke. Examination of human lung tissue that

had been exposed to marijuana smoke over a long period of time in a

laboratory showed cellular changes called metaplasia that are

considered precancerous. In laboratory test, the tars from marijuana

smoke have produced tumors when applied to animal skin. These studies

suggest that it is likely that marijuana may cause cancer if used for

a number of years. "

http://www.well.com/user/woa/fspot.htm

While I understand that it is " occasional use " , I am not sure exactly

what that means. A small apartment with little ventilation could hold

the residual of those toxins for a long period of time, that is why I

recommended the air filter, not so much for the filtering of toxins

butalso for the circulation of the air.

I have not seen any research on the effects of burning marijuana on

bacteria. I personally would theorize though that anything competing

for oxygen space in the environment would be detrimental to the health

of any organism requiring oxygen for life such as Kombucha.

Kellie

[Guest guest]

Hello

If you soak the cloth even for briefly in a 10 % bleach solution, all the

possible mold spores et al will be destroyed

Blessings

mark

Re: Re: Tragedy part to...read this because im just going to

throw it all away

>

> > thing is to make sure that you are using a newly cleaned cloth,

>don't use

> > the same one you had, probably don't use that one ever again.

>

>I use the same cloth all the time. Sometimes I wash it and iron it

>dry and other times I just put it back on. Never have had a problem.

>

> Lizzie

Right, Lizzie, me too. I was suggesting a new cloth for , who has

had a huge mold problem in her vessel. That cloth should not be reused,

even if washed, because of the mold spores in it.

--V

~~~ There is no way to peace; peace is the way ~~~~

--A.J. Muste