Re: vaccines

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I have been told that you have to be off IVIG for more then a few months to

get an accurate reading for titers to the pneummovax...5 months to be exact.

I thought I would share this with you just in case it could be correct. I

would be interested to hear what everyone else has heard on this topic.

Autumn mom to Mark Cd5-Cd19 PID/ Samter's syndrome, A1A, GERD

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I have been told that you have to be off IVIG for more then a few months to

get an accurate reading for titers to the pneummovax...5 months to be exact.

I thought I would share this with you just in case it could be correct. I

would be interested to hear what everyone else has heard on this topic.

Autumn mom to Mark Cd5-Cd19 PID/ Samter's syndrome, A1A, GERD

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I have been told that you have to be off IVIG for more then a few months to

get an accurate reading for titers to the pneummovax...5 months to be exact.

I thought I would share this with you just in case it could be correct. I

would be interested to hear what everyone else has heard on this topic.

Autumn mom to Mark Cd5-Cd19 PID/ Samter's syndrome, A1A, GERD

[Guest guest]

,

Thanks for asking for the clarification, because I didn't explain this

part well the first time around. The way I understand it is that if

someone has normal T-cell function, they should be able to respond to

vaccines and make memory T-cells. These T-memory cells are stored in

the body after an illness or exposure, and you only need one of them in

order to really boost your response to an infection. But you need an

immunization or a significant enough exposure to get the immune system

revved up to make the response that will produce a T-memory cell for

that specific illness. That one little cell can mean the difference

between responding in three weeks or three days to an infection. But -

like in your case - most of the time, when they check for memory to

infection, they look at the IgG levels, and IgG is produced by the B

cells (when a B cell is activated against a germ, it differentiates into

a plasma cell, which produces IgM or IgG or IgA against the germ). I am

really not sure that in general testing (that is, outside of an obscure

lab in some famous researcher's academic institution) there is a way to

look for specific memory T-cells - I don't think they can tell the

difference between them just by looking... so the way they test for

T-cell memory is to do the Antigen Proliferation Tests (that's when you

test a person's T-cells with Diphtheria, Tetanus, and Candida in a test

tube... it's different than the pre and post-titers they draw after a

vaccine - those are usually IgM and/or IgG levels).

But anyway, even if your T-cells work perfectly, if your B-cells do not,

you may have low IgG in general, and low IgG toward specific illnesses.

So 's results on the tests could simply indicate his B-cell

problem. To take an extreme example which might help clarify, if you

look in the blood of someone with Bruton's (X-linked Agammaglobulinemia,

congenital absence of B-cells), you will find that they have no IgG (or

very little) against Diphtheria, Tetanus, etc., after they received

their vaccination. That looks pretty scary on paper, but it doesn't

necessarily mean that they have no protection against those illnesses,

because in Bruton's patients, their T-cells function normally (this may

be part of the reason that Bruton's patients tend to respond very well

to IVIG, whereas many CVID patients - who often have a normal number of

B-cells present - continue to have ongoing infections after IVIG starts.

It's because CVID patients frequently have T-cell functional problems

which cannot be ameliorated by IVIG). Presumably, Bruton's patients

have memory for these illnesses - it's just stored in the T-cells, so

you can't detect it by the IgG tests. My understanding is that if you

took their T-cells and put them in a test tube and threw in some Tetanus

antigen, their T-cells would proliferate normally.

Doctors use the IgG levels against Diphtheria and Tetanus as a way to

look at whether the patient's B cells are working to churn out the IgG.

It's part of the basic workup for an immune deficiency. But the ultimate

proof of whether someone has protection against an illness lies in the

T-cell proliferation tests (except for those few illnesses - H. flu,

Pneumococcus, Meningococcus - which require an all-B cells response).

So if you want to make sure is protected, antigen proliferation

tests are probably the way to go. But I think that if your doctors are

willing to fight for to get extra vaccinations to try to keep his

IgG titers in the protective range, it wouldn't hurt and could certainly

help.

As an aside, many people with CVID have low antigen proliferation

responses on the T-cell stimulation tests. Most people with CVID have

normal mitogen responses (they can proliferate in response to *general*

stimulants - ConA, Pokeweed, etc), but for whatever reason, their

*specific* responses are decreased. It doesn't happen to everyone, and

I think that's one of the many variable symptoms that will someday help

distinguish between some of the many different illnesses CVID really is.

No one really knows why this low antigen response happens. Lots of

speculation, but chances are it has something to do with the B and T

cells' interaction process being messed up somewhere along the way. But

that's part of why I think people need more immunizations rather than

less... going by just IgG levels alone may not tell you if you have

specific protection against particular illnesses, so I would maximize my

chances of producing protective amounts of IgG and more significantly,

of producing the T-memory cells which are crucial to swift and specific

immune response by making sure I kept up my immunizations and by doing

them more often, if needed. The main thing I wanted to get across in my

original message, though, was just that saying because someone has an

immune deficiency, they shouldn't get their (safe, killed)

immunizations, is adding insult to injury. Obviously you got the

take-home message! I hope I didn't scare you... and I hope this

explanation helps a bit. Let me know if there's anything else I should clarify.

Take care, and good luck with convincing the insurance company!!

[Guest guest]

,

Thanks for asking for the clarification, because I didn't explain this

part well the first time around. The way I understand it is that if

someone has normal T-cell function, they should be able to respond to

vaccines and make memory T-cells. These T-memory cells are stored in

the body after an illness or exposure, and you only need one of them in

order to really boost your response to an infection. But you need an

immunization or a significant enough exposure to get the immune system

revved up to make the response that will produce a T-memory cell for

that specific illness. That one little cell can mean the difference

between responding in three weeks or three days to an infection. But -

like in your case - most of the time, when they check for memory to

infection, they look at the IgG levels, and IgG is produced by the B

cells (when a B cell is activated against a germ, it differentiates into

a plasma cell, which produces IgM or IgG or IgA against the germ). I am

really not sure that in general testing (that is, outside of an obscure

lab in some famous researcher's academic institution) there is a way to

look for specific memory T-cells - I don't think they can tell the

difference between them just by looking... so the way they test for

T-cell memory is to do the Antigen Proliferation Tests (that's when you

test a person's T-cells with Diphtheria, Tetanus, and Candida in a test

tube... it's different than the pre and post-titers they draw after a

vaccine - those are usually IgM and/or IgG levels).

But anyway, even if your T-cells work perfectly, if your B-cells do not,

you may have low IgG in general, and low IgG toward specific illnesses.

So 's results on the tests could simply indicate his B-cell

problem. To take an extreme example which might help clarify, if you

look in the blood of someone with Bruton's (X-linked Agammaglobulinemia,

congenital absence of B-cells), you will find that they have no IgG (or

very little) against Diphtheria, Tetanus, etc., after they received

their vaccination. That looks pretty scary on paper, but it doesn't

necessarily mean that they have no protection against those illnesses,

because in Bruton's patients, their T-cells function normally (this may

be part of the reason that Bruton's patients tend to respond very well

to IVIG, whereas many CVID patients - who often have a normal number of

B-cells present - continue to have ongoing infections after IVIG starts.

It's because CVID patients frequently have T-cell functional problems

which cannot be ameliorated by IVIG). Presumably, Bruton's patients

have memory for these illnesses - it's just stored in the T-cells, so

you can't detect it by the IgG tests. My understanding is that if you

took their T-cells and put them in a test tube and threw in some Tetanus

antigen, their T-cells would proliferate normally.

Doctors use the IgG levels against Diphtheria and Tetanus as a way to

look at whether the patient's B cells are working to churn out the IgG.

It's part of the basic workup for an immune deficiency. But the ultimate

proof of whether someone has protection against an illness lies in the

T-cell proliferation tests (except for those few illnesses - H. flu,

Pneumococcus, Meningococcus - which require an all-B cells response).

So if you want to make sure is protected, antigen proliferation

tests are probably the way to go. But I think that if your doctors are

willing to fight for to get extra vaccinations to try to keep his

IgG titers in the protective range, it wouldn't hurt and could certainly

help.

As an aside, many people with CVID have low antigen proliferation

responses on the T-cell stimulation tests. Most people with CVID have

normal mitogen responses (they can proliferate in response to *general*

stimulants - ConA, Pokeweed, etc), but for whatever reason, their

*specific* responses are decreased. It doesn't happen to everyone, and

I think that's one of the many variable symptoms that will someday help

distinguish between some of the many different illnesses CVID really is.

No one really knows why this low antigen response happens. Lots of

speculation, but chances are it has something to do with the B and T

cells' interaction process being messed up somewhere along the way. But

that's part of why I think people need more immunizations rather than

less... going by just IgG levels alone may not tell you if you have

specific protection against particular illnesses, so I would maximize my

chances of producing protective amounts of IgG and more significantly,

of producing the T-memory cells which are crucial to swift and specific

immune response by making sure I kept up my immunizations and by doing

them more often, if needed. The main thing I wanted to get across in my

original message, though, was just that saying because someone has an

immune deficiency, they shouldn't get their (safe, killed)

immunizations, is adding insult to injury. Obviously you got the

take-home message! I hope I didn't scare you... and I hope this

explanation helps a bit. Let me know if there's anything else I should clarify.

Take care, and good luck with convincing the insurance company!!

[Guest guest]

,

Thanks for asking for the clarification, because I didn't explain this

part well the first time around. The way I understand it is that if

someone has normal T-cell function, they should be able to respond to

vaccines and make memory T-cells. These T-memory cells are stored in

the body after an illness or exposure, and you only need one of them in

order to really boost your response to an infection. But you need an

immunization or a significant enough exposure to get the immune system

revved up to make the response that will produce a T-memory cell for

that specific illness. That one little cell can mean the difference

between responding in three weeks or three days to an infection. But -

like in your case - most of the time, when they check for memory to

infection, they look at the IgG levels, and IgG is produced by the B

cells (when a B cell is activated against a germ, it differentiates into

a plasma cell, which produces IgM or IgG or IgA against the germ). I am

really not sure that in general testing (that is, outside of an obscure

lab in some famous researcher's academic institution) there is a way to

look for specific memory T-cells - I don't think they can tell the

difference between them just by looking... so the way they test for

T-cell memory is to do the Antigen Proliferation Tests (that's when you

test a person's T-cells with Diphtheria, Tetanus, and Candida in a test

tube... it's different than the pre and post-titers they draw after a

vaccine - those are usually IgM and/or IgG levels).

But anyway, even if your T-cells work perfectly, if your B-cells do not,

you may have low IgG in general, and low IgG toward specific illnesses.

So 's results on the tests could simply indicate his B-cell

problem. To take an extreme example which might help clarify, if you

look in the blood of someone with Bruton's (X-linked Agammaglobulinemia,

congenital absence of B-cells), you will find that they have no IgG (or

very little) against Diphtheria, Tetanus, etc., after they received

their vaccination. That looks pretty scary on paper, but it doesn't

necessarily mean that they have no protection against those illnesses,

because in Bruton's patients, their T-cells function normally (this may

be part of the reason that Bruton's patients tend to respond very well

to IVIG, whereas many CVID patients - who often have a normal number of

B-cells present - continue to have ongoing infections after IVIG starts.

It's because CVID patients frequently have T-cell functional problems

which cannot be ameliorated by IVIG). Presumably, Bruton's patients

have memory for these illnesses - it's just stored in the T-cells, so

you can't detect it by the IgG tests. My understanding is that if you

took their T-cells and put them in a test tube and threw in some Tetanus

antigen, their T-cells would proliferate normally.

Doctors use the IgG levels against Diphtheria and Tetanus as a way to

look at whether the patient's B cells are working to churn out the IgG.

It's part of the basic workup for an immune deficiency. But the ultimate

proof of whether someone has protection against an illness lies in the

T-cell proliferation tests (except for those few illnesses - H. flu,

Pneumococcus, Meningococcus - which require an all-B cells response).

So if you want to make sure is protected, antigen proliferation

tests are probably the way to go. But I think that if your doctors are

willing to fight for to get extra vaccinations to try to keep his

IgG titers in the protective range, it wouldn't hurt and could certainly

help.

As an aside, many people with CVID have low antigen proliferation

responses on the T-cell stimulation tests. Most people with CVID have

normal mitogen responses (they can proliferate in response to *general*

stimulants - ConA, Pokeweed, etc), but for whatever reason, their

*specific* responses are decreased. It doesn't happen to everyone, and

I think that's one of the many variable symptoms that will someday help

distinguish between some of the many different illnesses CVID really is.

No one really knows why this low antigen response happens. Lots of

speculation, but chances are it has something to do with the B and T

cells' interaction process being messed up somewhere along the way. But

that's part of why I think people need more immunizations rather than

less... going by just IgG levels alone may not tell you if you have

specific protection against particular illnesses, so I would maximize my

chances of producing protective amounts of IgG and more significantly,

of producing the T-memory cells which are crucial to swift and specific

immune response by making sure I kept up my immunizations and by doing

them more often, if needed. The main thing I wanted to get across in my

original message, though, was just that saying because someone has an

immune deficiency, they shouldn't get their (safe, killed)

immunizations, is adding insult to injury. Obviously you got the

take-home message! I hope I didn't scare you... and I hope this

explanation helps a bit. Let me know if there's anything else I should clarify.

Take care, and good luck with convincing the insurance company!!

[Guest guest]

Dear Autumna; Thank you for the shared information on the waiting time for

to be off of the IVIG to read accurate titers on Pneumovax

We were not told.

thanks

annette mom cvid asthmatic

>From: Autti@...

>Reply-To: PedPIDonelist

>To: PedPIDonelist

>Subject: Re: vaccines

>Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:54:41 EDT

>

>From: Autti@...

>

>Dear ,

>

>I have been told that you have to be off IVIG for more then a few months to

>get an accurate reading for titers to the pneummovax...5 months to be

>exact.

>I thought I would share this with you just in case it could be correct. I

>would be interested to hear what everyone else has heard on this topic.

>

>Autumn mom to Mark Cd5-Cd19 PID/ Samter's syndrome, A1A, GERD

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>With more than 17 million e-mails exchanged daily...

>http://www.onelist.com

>....ONElist is THE place where the world talks!

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>This forum is open to parents and caregivers of children diagnosed with a

>Primary Immune Deficiency. Opinions or medical advice stated here are the

>sole responsibility of the poster and should not be taken as professional

>advice.

_______________________________________________________________

Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Dear Autumna; Thank you for the shared information on the waiting time for

to be off of the IVIG to read accurate titers on Pneumovax

We were not told.

thanks

annette mom cvid asthmatic

>From: Autti@...

>Reply-To: PedPIDonelist

>To: PedPIDonelist

>Subject: Re: vaccines

>Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:54:41 EDT

>

>From: Autti@...

>

>Dear ,

>

>I have been told that you have to be off IVIG for more then a few months to

>get an accurate reading for titers to the pneummovax...5 months to be

>exact.

>I thought I would share this with you just in case it could be correct. I

>would be interested to hear what everyone else has heard on this topic.

>

>Autumn mom to Mark Cd5-Cd19 PID/ Samter's syndrome, A1A, GERD

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>With more than 17 million e-mails exchanged daily...

>http://www.onelist.com

>....ONElist is THE place where the world talks!

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>This forum is open to parents and caregivers of children diagnosed with a

>Primary Immune Deficiency. Opinions or medical advice stated here are the

>sole responsibility of the poster and should not be taken as professional

>advice.

_______________________________________________________________

Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Dear Autumna; Thank you for the shared information on the waiting time for

to be off of the IVIG to read accurate titers on Pneumovax

We were not told.

thanks

annette mom cvid asthmatic

>From: Autti@...

>Reply-To: PedPIDonelist

>To: PedPIDonelist

>Subject: Re: vaccines

>Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 14:54:41 EDT

>

>From: Autti@...

>

>Dear ,

>

>I have been told that you have to be off IVIG for more then a few months to

>get an accurate reading for titers to the pneummovax...5 months to be

>exact.

>I thought I would share this with you just in case it could be correct. I

>would be interested to hear what everyone else has heard on this topic.

>

>Autumn mom to Mark Cd5-Cd19 PID/ Samter's syndrome, A1A, GERD

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>With more than 17 million e-mails exchanged daily...

>http://www.onelist.com

>....ONElist is THE place where the world talks!

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>This forum is open to parents and caregivers of children diagnosed with a

>Primary Immune Deficiency. Opinions or medical advice stated here are the

>sole responsibility of the poster and should not be taken as professional

>advice.

_______________________________________________________________

Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

[Guest guest]

- macey had a low response to tetanus but ok response to diphtheria.

and according to her tcell function tests her tcells are ok. go figure.

Her pneumovax test results were not what the immunologist wanted to see and

so he diagnosed her with Selective antibody deficiency. Selective being

that she can respond to some and not to other. Macey had her DT titers done

twice. Once at Duke and once in December when she had the pneumovax. both

showed one responded, one didn't.

Ursula Holleman

Macey's mom (4 yr. old with CVID, asthma, GERD, sinus disease, grade I left

kidney reflux, Sensory Integration Disorder)

ICQ # 28592349

http://www.icq.com

PedPID email list archives

http://www.netpage.org/PedPID/_PedPID/

PedPID email list introductions

http://www.netpage.org/PedPID/_PedPID/introduction.htm

[Guest guest]

- macey had a low response to tetanus but ok response to diphtheria.

and according to her tcell function tests her tcells are ok. go figure.

Her pneumovax test results were not what the immunologist wanted to see and

so he diagnosed her with Selective antibody deficiency. Selective being

that she can respond to some and not to other. Macey had her DT titers done

twice. Once at Duke and once in December when she had the pneumovax. both

showed one responded, one didn't.

Ursula Holleman

Macey's mom (4 yr. old with CVID, asthma, GERD, sinus disease, grade I left

kidney reflux, Sensory Integration Disorder)

ICQ # 28592349

http://www.icq.com

PedPID email list archives

http://www.netpage.org/PedPID/_PedPID/

PedPID email list introductions

http://www.netpage.org/PedPID/_PedPID/introduction.htm

[Guest guest]

- macey had a low response to tetanus but ok response to diphtheria.

and according to her tcell function tests her tcells are ok. go figure.

Her pneumovax test results were not what the immunologist wanted to see and

so he diagnosed her with Selective antibody deficiency. Selective being

that she can respond to some and not to other. Macey had her DT titers done

twice. Once at Duke and once in December when she had the pneumovax. both

showed one responded, one didn't.

Ursula Holleman

Macey's mom (4 yr. old with CVID, asthma, GERD, sinus disease, grade I left

kidney reflux, Sensory Integration Disorder)

ICQ # 28592349

http://www.icq.com

PedPID email list archives

http://www.netpage.org/PedPID/_PedPID/

PedPID email list introductions

http://www.netpage.org/PedPID/_PedPID/introduction.htm

[Guest guest]

I think that some children are neurologically sensitive, and being

exposed to environmental triggers that would be inconsequential for

the average child, could create a severe reaction in a sensitive

child. How else to explain why some children have much worse

reactions to vaccinations than others?

Physicians will advise not to vaccinate in such a case (if there have

been seizures, prolonged high fever, inconsolable crying, floppiness

etc) even without any direct evidence of the cause and effect

relationship-they just have a suspicion that there is such a

relationship and thus advise caution. That is the same suspicion and

caution that parents with seemingly neurologically sensitive children

excercise with regard to vaccines. Just b/c no direct cause/effect

relationship has been demonstrated, does not mean that suspicions

about such a relationship are totally unfounded.

We cannot easily prevent our children's exposures to things like

viruses (like the strep virus that can possibly trigger autoimmune

reaction and then OCD) or allergens, that for some children trigger

asthma, or can trigger severe food allergies etc. But we can control

their exposure to vaccinations that, in a vulnerable child, could

possibly create an autoimmune response, or high fever, or even

seizure and CNS effects, maybe brain effects. Since no one knows yet

what DOES cause autism and it's spectrums (and other

neurological/brain disorders like OCD) I believe they cannot yet

definitively say what DOES NOT cause it either. I.e they cannot

definitively say that vaccines are NOT a possible cause.

Tell me what DOES cause neurological disorders like autism, that is

not vaccine related, and then I will dismiss concern about vaccines.

I admit it is all very inconclusive, and thus so are speculations

about vaccines, but still, a parent cannot help but be cautious.

Anyway, I see no reason why parental concern in respect to vaccines

should be so summarily dismissed, it is quite a legitimate concern,

if there have been prior severe reactions, or siblings with such

reactions.

I do believe that among the medical community there is a concern that

all parents will stop vaccinating due to the publicized fears of some

parents who rightly suspect their children to be neurologically

sensitive and reactive to vaccines. So physicians are likely to

downplay those legitimate concerns, without complete and definitive

evidence to the contrary, in order to prevent a full scale refusal

to vaccinate among the public, which, I would agree, could in itself

turn into a big public health problem.

nancy grace

In , Judy Lovchik <jlovchik@c...>

wrote:

> Autism in connection to vaccines has been studied to death in large

populations, both here and in Europe. Absolutely no connection has

been found. There was just another study published on this last

month showing no connection.

>

> Judy

> Re: to all: thyroid connection or

mercury in vaccines???

>

>

>

> > My brother-in-law is a lawyer/activitst

> > who has been studying the autism and mercury (in vaccines)

> connection for the

> > last several years. He's researching mercury and ocd for us

> now...so I'll let you

> > know if he turns up anything useful. Yours with my sherlock

> holmes hat on (too

> > tight probably!) Curlin

>

> We had our daughter's thyroid tested also. My husband is a

> physician and can't let go of the idea of an autoimmune reaction

as

> the cultprit for OCD. In addition, I have been leary of vaccines

> from the beginning. There are way too many cases of autism in

New

> Jersey where I live. There HAS to be a connection. Please let

us

> know if you turn up anything on this front.

>

>

> NJ, 8.5, OCD, Zoloft

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well said Grace!

> I think that some children are neurologically sensitive, and being

> exposed to environmental triggers that would be inconsequential for

> the average child, could create a severe reaction in a sensitive

> child. How else to explain why some children have much worse

> reactions to vaccinations than others?

>

> Physicians will advise not to vaccinate in such a case (if there

have

> been seizures, prolonged high fever, inconsolable crying,

floppiness

> etc) even without any direct evidence of the cause and effect

> relationship-they just have a suspicion that there is such a

> relationship and thus advise caution. That is the same suspicion

and

> caution that parents with seemingly neurologically sensitive

children

> excercise with regard to vaccines. Just b/c no direct cause/effect

> relationship has been demonstrated, does not mean that suspicions

> about such a relationship are totally unfounded.

>

> We cannot easily prevent our children's exposures to things like

> viruses (like the strep virus that can possibly trigger autoimmune

> reaction and then OCD) or allergens, that for some children trigger

> asthma, or can trigger severe food allergies etc. But we can

control

> their exposure to vaccinations that, in a vulnerable child, could

> possibly create an autoimmune response, or high fever, or even

> seizure and CNS effects, maybe brain effects. Since no one knows

yet

> what DOES cause autism and it's spectrums (and other

> neurological/brain disorders like OCD) I believe they cannot yet

> definitively say what DOES NOT cause it either. I.e they cannot

> definitively say that vaccines are NOT a possible cause.

>

> Tell me what DOES cause neurological disorders like autism, that is

> not vaccine related, and then I will dismiss concern about

vaccines.

> I admit it is all very inconclusive, and thus so are speculations

> about vaccines, but still, a parent cannot help but be cautious.

>

> Anyway, I see no reason why parental concern in respect to vaccines

> should be so summarily dismissed, it is quite a legitimate concern,

> if there have been prior severe reactions, or siblings with such

> reactions.

>

> I do believe that among the medical community there is a concern

that

> all parents will stop vaccinating due to the publicized fears of

some

> parents who rightly suspect their children to be neurologically

> sensitive and reactive to vaccines. So physicians are likely to

> downplay those legitimate concerns, without complete and definitive

> evidence to the contrary, in order to prevent a full scale refusal

> to vaccinate among the public, which, I would agree, could in

itself

> turn into a big public health problem.

>

> nancy grace

[Guest guest]

My 2-cents.........

This is an interesting topic and controversy. There was a TV(?)

interview I read the summary of recently, very hostile between the

two people (some show where guy interviewed two opponents over topic).

I don't think there's anyTHING in this world that some person

someWHERE will not have a bad/allergic reaction to - whether it's a

food, a dye, a touch of a plant, spider bites, an animal (fur or

saliva), the touch of something, mosquito bites (which you can

actually become immune to and stop getting those itchy spots),

pollen/pollution in the air, aspartame, strawberries, chocolate (my

LIFELINE!!!!!), bee stings.......and vaccines! And reactions can be

minor to mild to severe. And actually can change over time. Kids

outgrow some reactions, adults who were never allergic to things in

their youth can become allergic.....(I think that comes with AGE!)

Just saying that nothing can be discounted from causing a skin rash

to causing severe allergic reaction to causing neurological

problems/changes. I suspect Aspergers with , he might have

been just at " that age " where a vaccine might have done something,

who knows. But my other 2 kids are fine. OH well.

Like OCD and research into its origin/cause, one of which is the

PANDAS, I'm sure autism and other disorders can have varying

suspicions of causes. Research in my opinion does need to continue

in areas to continue any improvements/changes from affecting future

generations.

This IS an interesting topic (vaccines). Hey, ya'll know, " I " never

discount ANYTHING! Except maybe space aliens originally populating

the world.....I guess......hmmm.....?

(space alien comment regarding recent human cloning controversy)

[Guest guest]

Thought I might add, that without the syndenhams chorea model, which

seems to actually have been more stumbled upon than sought out,

(sometimes the way science works) who could have guessed of a

possible strep/ocd connection- b/c that connection is INDIRECT (strep

creates antibodies which, in turn, for unknown reasons in

presdipsoded individuals, attack brain tissue).

When researchers say there is no connection between vaccines and

neurological disorders, it may well be that they have found no

DIRECT connection, which is obviously what they are looking for. But

there may be an indirect connection that is difficult to demonstrate

or to theorize without a model to follow as in pandas/OCD/SC.

An indirect connection might be an autoimmune response. With all

those antibodies (result of ever increasing numbers of vaccinations)

sort of thrust upon a developing child's system- who is to say that

there might not be an unusual autoimmune response, with antobodies

circulating and possibly affecting other bodily organs such as the

brain or CNS? In fact it is hard to believe that such an unusual

onslaught of antibodies would NOT cause unusual reactions in

sensitive individuals. Still, without proof a such connection, I

think it is hard to give credible advice favoring or discouraging

vaccinations, other than that based on past or sibling reactions.

nanct grace

> > I think that some children are neurologically sensitive, and

being

> > exposed to environmental triggers that would be inconsequential

for

> > the average child, could create a severe reaction in a sensitive

> > child. How else to explain why some children have much worse

> > reactions to vaccinations than others?

> >

> > Physicians will advise not to vaccinate in such a case (if there

> have

> > been seizures, prolonged high fever, inconsolable crying,

> floppiness

> > etc) even without any direct evidence of the cause and effect

> > relationship-they just have a suspicion that there is such a

> > relationship and thus advise caution. That is the same suspicion

> and

> > caution that parents with seemingly neurologically sensitive

> children

> > excercise with regard to vaccines. Just b/c no direct

cause/effect

> > relationship has been demonstrated, does not mean that suspicions

> > about such a relationship are totally unfounded.

> >

> > We cannot easily prevent our children's exposures to things like

> > viruses (like the strep virus that can possibly trigger

autoimmune

> > reaction and then OCD) or allergens, that for some children

trigger

> > asthma, or can trigger severe food allergies etc. But we can

> control

> > their exposure to vaccinations that, in a vulnerable child, could

> > possibly create an autoimmune response, or high fever, or even

> > seizure and CNS effects, maybe brain effects. Since no one knows

> yet

> > what DOES cause autism and it's spectrums (and other

> > neurological/brain disorders like OCD) I believe they cannot yet

> > definitively say what DOES NOT cause it either. I.e they cannot

> > definitively say that vaccines are NOT a possible cause.

> >

> > Tell me what DOES cause neurological disorders like autism, that

is

> > not vaccine related, and then I will dismiss concern about

> vaccines.

> > I admit it is all very inconclusive, and thus so are speculations

> > about vaccines, but still, a parent cannot help but be cautious.

> >

> > Anyway, I see no reason why parental concern in respect to

vaccines

> > should be so summarily dismissed, it is quite a legitimate

concern,

> > if there have been prior severe reactions, or siblings with such

> > reactions.

> >

> > I do believe that among the medical community there is a concern

> that

> > all parents will stop vaccinating due to the publicized fears of

> some

> > parents who rightly suspect their children to be neurologically

> > sensitive and reactive to vaccines. So physicians are likely to

> > downplay those legitimate concerns, without complete and

definitive

> > evidence to the contrary, in order to prevent a full scale

refusal

> > to vaccinate among the public, which, I would agree, could in

> itself

> > turn into a big public health problem.

> >

> > nancy grace