Guest guest Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 I think this has been covered on the list serve before: I come in on the side of "Don't Do It." For thirty years I was a veterinarian and they sell lots of stuff over the counter, all of it things they think people need. At the end of my practice life, I bothered to calculate out how much I had made on it carrying medicine, vitamins and prescription feeds. Given expiration dates, lost stuff, wrong stuff, damaged stuff, time, inventory, taxes on inventory, lost income on investment money and cash flow problems: it came out to $1.25 an hour profit. You would be happier if you hit yourself on the head with a hammer for ten minutes a month. Most Sincerely, Joanne Holland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 I agree with you. However, there is a lot in the literature about omega 3, for example. I used them prior to the time when DHA was incorporated into prenatal vits. So, I don't think we know everything and I always try to tell my patients that. From: Sangeetha Murthy <sangeethamurthy@ onebox.com>Subject: [Practiceimprovemen t1] Re: selling supplements To: Practiceimprovement 1yahoogroups (DOT) comDate: Monday, January 26, 2009, 3:08 PM I have had patients tell me that they have quit Physicians offices that do that because they felt they were pushed to purchase something.. Sangeetha > > Is this something you do in your office? > > Any conflicts here? > > Pharmacists sell lots of stuff in their businesses which are > essentially useless ... > > -- > Graham Chiu > http://www.synapsed irect.com > Synapse - the use from anywhere EMR. > -- If you are a patient please allow up to 24 hours for a reply by email/please note the new email address.Remember that e-mail may not be entirely secure/ MD ph fax impcenter.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 It is good to know. I don't sell them in bulk but just offer one vial and then tell pts to get more in a health food store.What made you switch from being a vet? Was it difficult? IngaSubject: Re: Re: selling supplementsTo: Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 9:32 PM I think this has been covered on the list serve before: I come in on the side of "Don't Do It." For thirty years I was a veterinarian and they sell lots of stuff over the counter, all of it things they think people need. At the end of my practice life, I bothered to calculate out how much I had made on it carrying medicine, vitamins and prescription feeds. Given expiration dates, lost stuff, wrong stuff, damaged stuff, time, inventory, taxes on inventory, lost income on investment money and cash flow problems: it came out to $1.25 an hour profit. You would be happier if you hit yourself on the head with a hammer for ten minutes a month. Most Sincerely, Joanne Holland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 I agree about omega 3 absoolutely I was thinking the horse chestnut and what is that tomatoe stuff for prostates .... lycopene! the fuzzier stuff Joann makes a goodpoint about h er experience as a vet Probably make more seeling wine! I agree with you. However, there is a lot in the literature about omega 3, for example. I used them prior to the time when DHA was incorporated into prenatal vits. So, I don't think we know everything and I always try to tell my patients that. From: Sangeetha Murthy <sangeethamurthy@ onebox.com>Subject: [Practiceimprovemen t1] Re: selling supplements To: Practiceimprovement 1yahoogroups (DOT) comDate: Monday, January 26, 2009, 3:08 PM I have had patients tell me that they have quit Physicians offices that do that because they felt they were pushed to purchase something.. Sangeetha > > Is this something you do in your office? > > Any conflicts here? > > Pharmacists sell lots of stuff in their businesses which are > essentially useless ... > > -- > Graham Chiu > http://www.synapsed irect.com > Synapse - the use from anywhere EMR. > -- If you are a patient please allow up to 24 hours for a reply by email/please note the new email address.Remember that e-mail may not be entirely secure/ MD ph fax impcenter.org -- If you are a patient please allow up to 24 hours for a reply by email/please note the new email address.Remember that e-mail may not be entirely secure/ MD ph fax impcenter.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 I make approx $500-1000/month selling supplements. i give people my price list and recommend that they compare my prices with elsewhere. i do give patients 15% off retail pricing and the comfort of knowing that they are getting the products i trust and have evaluated. i explain the IMP model and that selling supplements and having an annual fee help keep my appointment times long and 24/7 access (sustainability). i'll be happy to share my paperwork and resources with anyone interested. Evan > > > > > > Is this something you do in your office? > > > > > > Any conflicts here? > > > > > > Pharmacists sell lots of stuff in their businesses which are > > > essentially useless ... > > > > > > -- > > > Graham Chiu > > > http://www.synapsed irect.com > > > Synapse - the use from anywhere EMR. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 Dear Inga, The reasons for switching were complex and part of the outgrowth of loving medicine itself. After a while the species doesn't matter, but the suffering always matters. it was more like paying heavy dues to change labels. Some of the issues are very different, however, and the character of some of my professional fellows has always troubled me. In vet med I was troubled by those who were cruel underneath their surface, and in People Med I am troubled by those who are venial beneath their surface. The switch was just as hard for me as the initial training was for you. They did not cut any breaks in the education time. And I irritated a lot of people because I do medicine differently after 30 years; I tended to limit my differential because of my experiences; I know a lot of diseases by sight. I mean, some guy poops liquid diarrhea with a peculiar smell and blood in it shortly after he goes to the State Fair: Campylobacter, duh. It ticked off my teachers when I was right. So it did take some adjustment. Joanne From: joanne holland <joandvmmdyahoo (DOT) com>Subject: Re: [Practiceimprovemen t1] Re: selling supplementsTo: Practiceimprovement 1yahoogroups (DOT) comDate: Monday, January 26, 2009, 9:32 PM I think this has been covered on the list serve before: I come in on the side of "Don't Do It." For thirty years I was a veterinarian and they sell lots of stuff over the counter, all of it things they think people need. At the end of my practice life, I bothered to calculate out how much I had made on it carrying medicine, vitamins and prescription feeds. Given expiration dates, lost stuff, wrong stuff, damaged stuff, time, inventory, taxes on inventory, lost income on investment money and cash flow problems: it came out to $1.25 an hour profit. You would be happier if you hit yourself on the head with a hammer for ten minutes a month. Most Sincerely, Joanne Holland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 I second the Omega 3s. Also probiotics. Vitamin D is the next big thing. Joanne's point is very well taken - lots of hassle involved in selling supplements, what with ordering and storing and researching, etc. But I do have a small supply of things I really like that I stock and sell. I try very hard not to push. Usually to a fault. People leave and I think "oh, I should have told them I could sell them that". And my prices are too low. From: Sangeetha Murthy <sangeethamurthy@ onebox.com>Subject: [Practiceimprovemen t1] Re: selling supplements To: Practiceimprovement 1yahoogroups (DOT) comDate: Monday, January 26, 2009, 3:08 PM I have had patients tell me that they have quit Physicians offices that do that because they felt they were pushed to purchase something.. Sangeetha > > Is this something you do in your office? > > Any conflicts here? > > Pharmacists sell lots of stuff in their businesses which are > essentially useless ... > > -- > Graham Chiu > http://www.synapsed irect.com > Synapse - the use from anywhere EMR. > -- If you are a patient please allow up to 24 hours for a reply by email/please note the new email address.Remember that e-mail may not be entirely secure/ MD ph fax impcenter.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Remember also that you are selling stuff that can be at least 30% effective. Placebo's have been used for a long time effectively by physicians. > I am getting ready to start selling supplements, but I do not plan to sell > them from my office. -- Graham Chiu http://www.synapsedirect.com Synapse - the use from anywhere EMR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Hi Evan, Do you research the vit. products ? Do they buy in bulk? Are you the one who informs pts of the benefit and actions of supplements or you delegate it to your staff? Do you display the supplements in the waiting room? Inga Zilberstein, M.D., ob/gyn, NYC Subject: Re: selling supplementsTo: Date: Tuesday, January 27, 2009, 1:09 PM I make approx $500-1000/month selling supplements. i give people myprice list and recommend that they compare my prices with elsewhere. ido give patients 15% off retail pricing and the comfort of knowingthat they are getting the products i trust and have evaluated. iexplain the IMP model and that selling supplements and having anannual fee help keep my appointment times long and 24/7 access(sustainability) . i'll be happy to share my paperwork and resourceswith anyone interested. Evan> > >> > > Is this something you do in your office?> > > > > > Any conflicts here?> > > > > > Pharmacists sell lots of stuff in their businesses which are> > > essentially useless ...> > > > > > -- > > > Graham Chiu> > > http://www.synapsed irect.com> > > Synapse - the use from anywhere EMR.> > >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 That's the way I sell my supplements now: low prices, not pushing, just offering what I like or believe in (at that moment at least). Definetely, believe in probiotics and omega's ; also red rice yeast for lowering cholesterol; as well as Ca, Mg Glyconate for headaches and Mg Citrate for constipation. Vit D is a king of vits now! Vit C for immune support. Lysine and Zinc for prevention of herpes outbreack ( tried in on my children for oral herpes). So, I feel kind of out of place selling vits, and a bit resentful but inspite of that would like to make some money since I am interested in it anyway. Inga Zilberstein. From: Sangeetha Murthy <sangeethamurthy@ onebox.com>Subject: [Practiceimprovemen t1] Re: selling supplementsTo: Practiceimprovement 1yahoogroups (DOT) comDate: Monday, January 26, 2009, 3:08 PM I have had patients tell me that they have quit Physicians officesthat do that because they felt they were pushed to purchase something..Sangeetha>> Is this something you do in your office?> > Any conflicts here?> > Pharmacists sell lots of stuff in their businesses which are> essentially useless ...> > -- > Graham Chiu> http://www.synapsed irect.com> Synapse - the use from anywhere EMR.>-- If you are a patient please allow up to 24 hours for a reply by email/please note the new email address.Remember that e-mail may not be entirely secure/ MD ph fax impcenter.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Thanks for sharing. From: joanne holland <joandvmmdyahoo (DOT) com>Subject: Re: [Practiceimprovemen t1] Re: selling supplementsTo: Practiceimprovement 1yahoogroups (DOT) comDate: Monday, January 26, 2009, 9:32 PM I think this has been covered on the list serve before: I come in on the side of "Don't Do It." For thirty years I was a veterinarian and they sell lots of stuff over the counter, all of it things they think people need. At the end of my practice life, I bothered to calculate out how much I had made on it carrying medicine, vitamins and prescription feeds. Given expiration dates, lost stuff, wrong stuff, damaged stuff, time, inventory, taxes on inventory, lost income on investment money and cash flow problems: it came out to $1.25 an hour profit. You would be happier if you hit yourself on the head with a hammer for ten minutes a month. Most Sincerely, Joanne Holland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 You should open a veggie shop and sell broccoli - great for herpes as well I believe. > constipation. Vit D is a king of vits now! Vit C for immune support. Lysine > and Zinc for prevention of herpes outbreack ( tried in on my children for -- Graham Chiu http://www.synapsedirect.com Synapse - the use from anywhere EMR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 i agree, what you sell in the front should reflect your evidence based care. it took me a few minutes to explain to my billing person why she couldn't sell girl scout cookies to patients too... tac i think " immune support " is pretty vague and is unfair to patietns and preys on their fears.Leave that to the Stores who knows how to measure immunity as these products claim to enhance it?Can you tell me how we measure boosting immunity? If you want to have a store, fine I do not criticize people who sell stuffbut It is an ethical dilemna if you also claim to practice science based medcine. I don;t think doc s who want people to believe the usefulness of B Blockers and the risks of estrogen and the dangers of untreated htn should be inconsistent whe it comes to what they sell in their front room I have a big dilemma about selling supplements in my office. On one hand, I want to make sure that the patients will get the right supplements. I have searched for certain supplements for immune support, and good quality probiotics, as well as Ca, vit D, high grade quality omega 3s, etc,; on the other hand, I don't want to be a salesperson. I feel it is not ethical. However, I know few physicians that make good income selling supplements. Subject: Re: selling supplements To: Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 3:08 PM I have had patients tell me that they have quit Physicians officesthat do that because they felt they were pushed to purchase something..Sangeetha>> Is this something you do in your office?> > Any conflicts here?> > Pharmacists sell lots of stuff in their businesses which are > essentially useless ...> > -- > Graham Chiu> http://www.synapsed irect.com > Synapse - the use from anywhere EMR.> -- If you are a patient please allow up to 24 hours for a reply by email/ please note the new email address.Remember that e-mail may not be entirely secure/ MD ph fax impcenter.org -- Crowley, MD Family MedicineCape May Courthouse NJPatients, please allow up to 48 hours for response. If you are having an urgent problem please go to the emergency department or call 911. If you have a problem or question that can't wait 48 hours, or you have not received a timely response, just call the office at 465-0882. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 don't forget the wheat grass!rockyAsk me about BOTOX® Cosmetic!Rakesh Patel MD Arizona Sun Family Medicine, P.C. 633 East Ray Road, #101 Gilbert, Arizona 85296 www.azsunfm.com PLEASE NOTE: Email is not a secure form of communication. It should not be used for urgent or sensitive messages. If you have a medical emergency go to an Emergency Room or call 911. > constipation. Vit D is a king of vits now! Vit C for immune support. Lysine > and Zinc for prevention of herpes outbreack ( tried in on my children for -- Graham Chiu http://www.synapsed irect.com Synapse - the use from anywhere EMR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 If only I could get my patients to eat their veggies... many of their problems would be solved. > constipation. Vit D is a king of vits now! Vit C for immune support. Lysine > and Zinc for prevention of herpes outbreack ( tried in on my children for -- Graham Chiu http://www.synapsed irect.com Synapse - the use from anywhere EMR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 In business, the customer is always right, in medicine, the doctors believe they are always right! More $$ is spent yearly on alternative medicine than allopathic medicine. You don't necessarily have to believe this stuff works ... just as long as it does them no harm, > Doctor''s Vitamin Pharmacy is a very low-key way of selling supplements. > Pasted in below is my post from December 16, including a disclaimer at the > end. > > Marty -- Graham Chiu http://www.synapsedirect.com Synapse - the use from anywhere EMR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Isn't having patient spend money on ineffective treatment harmful?I consider myself a skeptic, not anti-complementary/anti-vitamin. I believe if you recommend something to somebody, you should have good scientific evidence to back that up. For that reason, I love to consult Mayo Clinic's Supplement Reference: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/drug-information/DrugHerbIndex. It summarizes the known evidence for or against various supplements. And that is why I feel fairly confident in recommending things like glucosamine, fish oil and saw palmetto, and against things like beta-carotene and dong quai.I strongly believe in the placebo effect. I believe physicians/health care providers have the right to practice the way they see fit. I also believe that if my goal was to become rich, I would have gone into sales of nutrition supplements like this guy (http://www.drwhitaker.com/) rather than family medicine. SetoSouth Pasadena, CAIn business, the customer is always right, in medicine, the doctorsbelieve they are always right!More $$ is spent yearly on alternative medicine than allopathic medicine.You don't necessarily have to believe this stuff works ... just aslong as it does them no harm,On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Marty Schulman <mschulmanucsd (DOT) edu> wrote:> Doctor''s Vitamin Pharmacy is a very low-key way of selling supplements.> Pasted in below is my post from December 16, including a disclaimer at the> end.>> Marty-- Graham Chiuhttp://www.synapsedirect.comSynapse - the use from anywhere EMR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 - thanks for the link- I will use this frequently. RE: red yeast rice mentioned in another post... yes, the REAL stuff works and yes, before the FDA made it illegal and the REAL stuff disappeared off shelves, my patients were happy to use it rather than use a terrible statin despite my talk on how it IS a statin and I monitor it the same way. I also warned that there is not as much research on the outcomes on CAD events as we have on statins. Now that the new forms of red yeast rice are being sold (I believe its fermented in a different way and thus does not develop into lovastatin) they are often combined with polycosonals and other supplements that are not as strikingly effective in cholesterol reduction and my patient's panels reflect this. I'm guessing there are some RYR products that are still REAL being sold but technically they are illegal. So for those of you who are recommending them, how are they working for your patients and is there any REAL RYR out there? Carla > > > Doctor''s Vitamin Pharmacy is a very low-key way of selling > > supplements. > > > Pasted in below is my post from December 16, including a > > disclaimer at the > > > end. > > > > > > Marty > > > > -- > > Graham Chiu > > http://www.synapsedirect.com > > Synapse - the use from anywhere EMR. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Thanks Carly for the explanation about red yeast rice. Thanks for the link . Subject: Re: selling supplementsTo: Date: Saturday, January 31, 2009, 12:23 AM - thanks for the link- I will use this frequently.RE: red yeast rice mentioned in another post... yes, the REAL stuff works and yes, before the FDA made it illegal and the REAL stuff disappeared off shelves, my patients were happy to use it rather than use a terrible statin despite my talk on how it IS a statin and I monitor it the same way. I also warned that there is not as much research on the outcomes on CAD events as we have on statins. Now that the new forms of red yeast rice are being sold (I believe its fermented in a different way and thus does not develop into lovastatin) they are often combined with polycosonals and other supplements that are not as strikingly effective in cholesterol reduction and my patient's panels reflect this. I'm guessing there are some RYR products that are still REAL being sold but technically they are illegal. So for those of you who are recommending them, how are they working for your patients and is there any REAL RYR out there?Carla> > > Doctor''s Vitamin Pharmacy is a very low-key way of selling > > supplements.> > > Pasted in below is my post from December 16, including a > > disclaimer at the> > > end.> > >> > > Marty> >> > -- > > Graham Chiu> > http://www.synapsed irect.com> > Synapse - the use from anywhere EMR.> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 I've done lots of bad things in my life, and most of those, I'm not proud of. But, when I practice medicine, I try to help people, as much as I can. If a doctor is selling crap to his/her patients, and does not believe that pill is going to actually help them, but he/she is hoping that sale will help him/her to get rich, that is just evil. Buy yourself a ticket straight to doctor-Hell. We should separate the practice of medicine, from the business of selling medications, to stay away from this kind of moral morass. Isn't having patient spend money on ineffective treatment harmful?I consider myself a skeptic, not anti-complementary/anti-vitamin. I believe if you recommend something to somebody, you should have good scientific evidence to back that up. For that reason, I love to consult Mayo Clinic's Supplement Reference: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/drug-information/DrugHerbIndex. It summarizes the known evidence for or against various supplements. And that is why I feel fairly confident in recommending things like glucosamine, fish oil and saw palmetto, and against things like beta-carotene and dong quai.I strongly believe in the placebo effect. I believe physicians/health care providers have the right to practice the way they see fit. I also believe that if my goal was to become rich, I would have gone into sales of nutrition supplements like this guy (http://www.drwhitaker.com/) rather than family medicine. SetoSouth Pasadena, CAIn business, the customer is always right, in medicine, the doctorsbelieve they are always right!More $$ is spent yearly on alternative medicine than allopathic medicine.You don't necessarily have to believe this stuff works ... just aslong as it does them no harm,On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 9:08 PM, Marty Schulman <mschulmanucsd (DOT) edu> wrote:> Doctor''s Vitamin Pharmacy is a very low-key way of selling supplements.> Pasted in below is my post from December 16, including a disclaimer at the> end.>> Marty-- Graham Chiuhttp://www.synapsedirect.comSynapse - the use from anywhere EMR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 So, it's fine to sell supplements as long as you believe they help the patients. Irregardless of the evidence. And we know that is a moving target. And of course some of the TCM stuff has been around for 1000s of years .... just not investigated so there is only historical evidence. It's highly unlikely that any IMP is going to get rich selling supplements. But say it makes enough to keep the IMP in business. Are they no longer an IMP because what they are now doing is not fully evidence based?? > I've done lots of bad things in my life, and most of those, I'm not proud > of. But, when I practice medicine, I try to help people, as much as I can. > If a doctor is selling crap to his/her patients, and does not believe that > pill is going to actually help them, but he/she is hoping that sale will > help him/her to get rich, that is just evil. Buy yourself a ticket straight > to doctor-Hell. We should separate the practice of medicine, from the > business of selling medications, to stay away from this kind of moral > morass. -- Graham Chiu http://www.synapsedirect.com Synapse - the use from anywhere EMR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 I’m assuming that people (IMP’s) want to sell stuff to make sure patients are getting high quality products and taking helpful things. Personally, I don’t do this, but may decide to some day. One approach I would be comfortable with, which is similar to Tim’s, I learned from Bob , the Executive Director of the American Board of Integrative Holistic Medicine, and a good guy. http://www.holisticboard.org/B/board_directors.html He actually only sold things that came from factories that he had visited (I’m not willing to go that far, but looking into quality is important); priced stuff much less than “retail”; sold through a separate (from his practice) non-profit corporation that was an educational foundation through which he supported a dietician and health education programs. Cool, huh? I personally am not comfortable profiting over sales of stuff I recommend, but I am willing to have people pay out of pocket for my services, which others are not comfortable with. If by selling Vitamin D and niacin and fish oil, you can support a practice that provides care to others that would not otherwise have it, go for it. Think about how you choose to live and practice and make sure you can sleep at night, understanding that we have to live in this crazy system (while we are changing it). Speaking of which, I should go to bed…. Sharon Sharon McCoy , MD Renaissance Family Medicine 10 McClintock Court, Irvine, CA 92617 Phone: ; Fax: Email: SharonMD@... website: www.SharonMD.com From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Graham Chiu Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 12:39 AM To: Subject: Re: Re: selling supplements So, it's fine to sell supplements as long as you believe they help the patients. Irregardless of the evidence. And we know that is a moving target. And of course some of the TCM stuff has been around for 1000s of years .... just not investigated so there is only historical evidence. It's highly unlikely that any IMP is going to get rich selling supplements. But say it makes enough to keep the IMP in business. Are they no longer an IMP because what they are now doing is not fully evidence based?? On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 7:10 PM, Mintek wrote: > I've done lots of bad things in my life, and most of those, I'm not proud > of. But, when I practice medicine, I try to help people, as much as I can. > If a doctor is selling crap to his/her patients, and does not believe that > pill is going to actually help them, but he/she is hoping that sale will > help him/her to get rich, that is just evil. Buy yourself a ticket straight > to doctor-Hell. We should separate the practice of medicine, from the > business of selling medications, to stay away from this kind of moral > morass. -- Graham Chiu http://www.synapsedirect.com Synapse - the use from anywhere EMR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Curious as I thought factories are NOT REQUIRED to guarantee quality and safety of supplements. Think I'll stick to the meds RE: Re: selling supplements I’m assuming that people (IMP’s) want to sell stuff to make sure patients are getting high quality products and taking helpful things. Personally, I don’t do this, but may decide to some day. One approach I would be comfortable with, which is similar to Tim’s, I learned from Bob , the Executive Director of the American Board of Integrative Holistic Medicine, and a good guy. http://www.holisticboard.org/B/board_directors.html He actually only sold things that came from factories that he had visited (I’m not willing to go that far, but looking into quality is important); priced stuff much less than “retail”; sold through a separate (from his practice) non-profit corporation that was an educational foundation through which he supported a dietician and health education programs. Cool, huh? I personally am not comfortable profiting over sales of stuff I recommend, but I am willing to have people pay out of pocket for my services, which others are not comfortable with. If by selling Vitamin D and niacin and fish oil, you can support a practice that provides care to others that would not otherwise have it, go for it. Think about how you choose to live and practice and make sure you can sleep at night, understanding that we have to live in this crazy system (while we are changing it). Speaking of which, I should go to bed…. Sharon Sharon McCoy , MD Renaissance Family Medicine 10 McClintock Court, Irvine, CA 92617 Phone: ; Fax: Email: SharonMD website: www.SharonMD.com From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Graham ChiuSent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 12:39 AMTo: Subject: Re: Re: selling supplements So, it's fine to sell supplements as long as you believe they help the patients.Irregardless of the evidence. And we know that is a moving target.And of course some of the TCM stuff has been around for 1000s of years... just not investigated so there is only historical evidence.It's highly unlikely that any IMP is going to get rich sellingsupplements. But say it makes enough to keep the IMP in business.Are they no longer an IMP because what they are now doing is not fullyevidence based??On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 7:10 PM, Mintek <mintekcharter (DOT) net> wrote:> I've done lots of bad things in my life, and most of those, I'm not proud> of. But, when I practice medicine, I try to help people, as much as I can.> If a doctor is selling crap to his/her patients, and does not believe that> pill is going to actually help them, but he/she is hoping that sale will> help him/her to get rich, that is just evil. Buy yourself a ticket straight> to doctor-Hell. We should separate the practice of medicine, from the> business of selling medications, to stay away from this kind of moral> morass.-- Graham Chiuhttp://www.synapsedirect.comSynapse - the use from anywhere EMR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Ethical? Consistent with best interest of patient? Test; would you still sell them if you were not making a profit at it ? > It is good to know. I don't sell them in bulk but just offer one vial and > then tell pts to get more in a health food store. > What made you switch from being a vet? Was it difficult? Inga > > > > Subject: Re: Re: selling supplements > To: > Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 9:32 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think this has been covered on the list serve before: I come in on > the side of " Don't Do It. " For thirty years I was a veterinarian and they > sell lots of stuff over the counter, all of it things they think people > need. > At the end of my practice life, I bothered to calculate out how much I > had made on it carrying medicine, vitamins and prescription feeds. Given > expiration dates, lost stuff, wrong stuff, damaged stuff, time, inventory, > taxes on inventory, lost income on investment money and cash flow problems: > it came out to $1.25 an hour profit. You would be happier if you hit > yourself on the head with a hammer for ten minutes a month. > > Most Sincerely, > Joanne Holland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Question, would you prescribe a medication where the NNT is high? eg. statins. Ie. you know that most of your patients will not benefit? Do boys ever get vaccinated against Rubella? > Ethical? Consistent with best interest of patient? Test; would you > still sell them if you were not making a profit at it ? > > >> It is good to know. I don't sell them in bulk but just offer one vial and >> then tell pts to get more in a health food store. >> What made you switch from being a vet? Was it difficult? Inga >> >> >> >> Subject: Re: Re: selling supplements >> To: >> Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 9:32 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I think this has been covered on the list serve before: I come in on >> the side of " Don't Do It. " For thirty years I was a veterinarian and they >> sell lots of stuff over the counter, all of it things they think people >> need. >> At the end of my practice life, I bothered to calculate out how much I >> had made on it carrying medicine, vitamins and prescription feeds. Given >> expiration dates, lost stuff, wrong stuff, damaged stuff, time, inventory, >> taxes on inventory, lost income on investment money and cash flow >> problems: >> it came out to $1.25 an hour profit. You would be happier if you hit >> yourself on the head with a hammer for ten minutes a month. >> >> Most Sincerely, >> Joanne Holland >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- Graham Chiu http://www.synapsedirect.com Synapse - the use from anywhere EMR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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