Re: kettlebells (why not dumbells?)

January 25, 2004

> ***** The arc, although unique, is relatively small, and, unless the

> weight is huge (which for you it might be), doesn't make a ground

> breaking amount of difference. Although fun and challenging, not

> worth throwing away the dummbells for.

Mark writes:

I disagree. The arc is not relatively small. Travelling from overhead

to at least a foot behind your body( as in the snatch) is probably

the longest range of motion a weight can travel in a free weight

exericse. Can you tell me an exercise where the weight travels a

farther distance?

> Even with the two arm and one arm swing the arc is very large and

and forces involved and very high.

And as a Master level powerlifter the weights are not large for me at

all, although the challenge of the KB's is considerable. I don't think

one needs to throw the dbs away (especially considering how cheap

they are) but given the choice between the two I use the kbs far more

often.

> > This allows for the use of momentum in a way most trainees dont

use:

> > ballistic.It feels very much like the swing I experienced as a

> > gymnast on high bar,parallel bars and rings.Very high reps can be

> > easily done do to the balance of the object,resulting in

unbeleivable

> > workloads and increases in work capacity and cardio-respiratory

> > capacity.Slow low reps can be done to build base strength.

> >

>

> ***** The same can be done with dumbbells, but folks just don't, out

> of fear or modern bodybuilding brainwashing.

Mark writes:

Again I disagree. I have swung dbs in the same way as the kbs and

the " feel " is nowhere near the same. The off center mass of the kb

totally changes the dynamics of the swing. There is a

distinct " bottom " position in gymnastics swings that the kbs also

possess. You cannot get this with db's at all. When you swing the kb

correctly and drive the hips at the proper position the kb becomes

almost weightless in your hand. This is not the case with the db.

You of course CAN do this with db's but the kbs are much more

efficient and WAY more FUN to swing.

> Mark wrote:

> > Virtually EVERYTHING you can do with a KB will activate your core

> > like nothing you've done before.Functional,efficient.

>

> ***** Still, not exclusive to kettlebells, though certain movements

> can seem to shift balance more then dumbbells, that I'll agree.

Mark writes;

I agree, db's or bb PL or OL will activate the core as well as kb's.

With my client population I find that the kb's allow them to do

things with greater safety (able to lift through the Center of Mass,

not the bar out in front), and more confortably than the same

exercises with BB or DB. Again, KB's are not a substitute but an

excellent addition to other free weights.

Mark wrote:

> > The handles with the low COG allow overhead work to be done very

> > comfortably.

> >

> > All the while loading ligaments in a way that seems to allow then to

> > heal and strengthen unlike the slow,grinding powerlifts.

>

> ***** Really? How's that?

>

Mark writes:

According to Pavel, the structure of ligaments is wave like and used

to dissapating force quickly (as in other ballistic movements like

running, jumping.) The force is quickly transmitted, stretching out

the ligament and then allowing it to return to its wave like

structure.

Training in this manner(ballistically) allows for an adaptation in

these structures. In a slow grinding lift which involve the posterior

similar to KB swings or lifts( such as DL's or squats) the ligaments

can be stretched out for long periods( such as a max lift which can

take 3-5 seconds to complete-at minimum).This prolonged pressure on

the structure can lead to more tears or weakening.

Anecdotally, I herniated L4-L5 in 2000. 18 months of rehab later I

could squat and deadlift but tolerate almost no volume. KB training(

starting with swings but expanding to snatches and cleans) helped

strengten my back to the point where I can now do previous levels of

squat and DL training with no problem.

I have also many examples of clients with previous back problems who

have thrived on progressive amounts of KB swinging and whose back

have never felt better. Anecdotal of course, but in my business

consistent results speak volumes.

> People of all

> > ages can learn to do it almost immediately. They are very user

> > friendly.

> >

> > And although they are costly, once one learns the myriad of exercises

> > you can do with the KB it becomes apparent they are possibly the best

> > deal in the exericse world. Virtually a compete gym for the price of

> > three kettlebells.

> >

> > 3 bells and a barbell set and most people are set.

>

> ***** One KB can be a convenient way to workout, true. But a full

> body workout sans weights is also possible. Throw some bands in a bag

> and a creative thinker can come up with a myriad of choices. How

> about clubbells? Another good choice. Keep all options open...

>

> > Hope this helps,

> >

> > Mark Reifkind

> > Palo Alto Ca

>

> ***** By the way, atomic athletic offers beautiful-looking kettlebells

> that can be filled with shot or bb's for different weights. I have a

> 25 pounder that can be filled as heavy as 75 or more. They're also a

> little cheaper then the Pavel sponsored models. There are also plate

> loaded adjuctab;e models out there. A google search will help.

Mark writes:

I agree that the shot or plate loaded KBs can be used very

effectively for swings but you cannot snatch or clean them at

all. Again, since most need only two or three KB's and you can do SO

MANY exercises with them and they will last a lifetime I see them as

an excellent investment not just a purchase.

Nice talking with you Chip,

Mark Reifkind

Palo ALto Ca

WWW.Girya.net

January 29, 2004

> Mark writes:

> I disagree. The arc is not relatively small. Travelling from overhead

> to at least a foot behind your body( as in the snatch) is probably

> the longest range of motion a weight can travel in a free weight

> exericse. Can you tell me an exercise where the weight travels a

> farther distance?

***** The range of motion of a weight doesn't automatically mean a

great deal to the range of motion of a joint. If so, I'd attach a

plate to a 10 foot rope and throw it around. As for other instruments

that do have increased range of motion, the Weaver Stick, Indian clubs

(or the modern Clubbell), sand bags and sledgehammers can all offer

extended range of motions.

> Mark writes:

> Again I disagree. I have swung dbs in the same way as the kbs and

> the " feel " is nowhere near the same. The off center mass of the kb

> totally changes the dynamics of the swing. There is a

> distinct " bottom " position in gymnastics swings that the kbs also

> possess. You cannot get this with db's at all. When you swing the kb

> correctly and drive the hips at the proper position the kb becomes

> almost weightless in your hand. This is not the case with the db.

>

> You of course CAN do this with db's but the kbs are much more

> efficient and WAY more FUN to swing.

***** They do have a fun element that can't be argued. My only

concern is the often vehement proselytizing done by the kb converts.

As for the weightlessness of a kb during certain motions, what exactly

would the benefits of that be?

> Mark writes:

>

> According to Pavel, the structure of ligaments is wave like and used

> to dissapating force quickly (as in other ballistic movements like

> running, jumping.) The force is quickly transmitted, stretching out

> the ligament and then allowing it to return to its wave like

> structure.

>

> Training in this manner(ballistically) allows for an adaptation in

> these structures. In a slow grinding lift which involve the posterior

> similar to KB swings or lifts( such as DL's or squats) the ligaments

> can be stretched out for long periods( such as a max lift which can

> take 3-5 seconds to complete-at minimum).This prolonged pressure on

> the structure can lead to more tears or weakening.

***** The stretch position of a powerlift should never last that long,

since after the stretch, no matter how heavy, the contraction ought to

be moving the weight out of any range of motion that would be

considered 'excessive' or anything that could possibly damage the

integrity of a liaments tensile strength. If I were to sit at the

bottom of a squat with 300+ pounds on my back for a while, that may

have an increased potential for injury, but no powerlifter will stay

in that position for very long, and once they're on their way up, even

a a stall, they will be well out of the way of a stretched postition

that could hurt ligaments (at this point, ligament damage, or any

other damge, would come from bad technique probably).

There can be a plyometric action involved with kettlebells, which

would ultimately train the stretch reflex, but again, not exclusive to

kb's.

>

> Anecdotally, I herniated L4-L5 in 2000. 18 months of rehab later I

> could squat and deadlift but tolerate almost no volume. KB training(

> starting with swings but expanding to snatches and cleans) helped

> strengten my back to the point where I can now do previous levels of

> squat and DL training with no problem.

>

> I have also many examples of clients with previous back problems who

> have thrived on progressive amounts of KB swinging and whose back

> have never felt better. Anecdotal of course, but in my business

> consistent results speak volumes.

***** That's great, since back health is a major issue today. I too,

have a rep for building backs, and kb's are an essential part. But

before they entered my gym, my clients were still making wonderful

progress.

> Mark writes:

>

> I agree that the shot or plate loaded KBs can be used very

> effectively for swings but you cannot snatch or clean them at

> all. Again, since most need only two or three KB's and you can do SO

> MANY exercises with them and they will last a lifetime I see them as

> an excellent investment not just a purchase.

***** Don't tell my clients who snatch and clean with them regularly

that. But heck, they snatch and clean anything, barrels, sandbags,

single arm barbell snatches, small children, lunch meat...whatever.

By the way, I've got an upcoming article about old school lift coming

up on a website soon (and it even includes me using a kettlebell).

Chip Conrad

Bodytribe Fitness

Sacramento, CA

February 3, 2004

To address the question about the value of momentary " weightlessness " of

a kb during some movements:

Skill and goal acquisition is as dependant upon motor unit excitation as

it is inhibition. Context and task dependant sequential segmental

recruitment that is to be intentionally coincidental (or not) with goal

associated variables is largely dependant upon one's ability to rapidly

and accurately turn on/off the right motor units at the right time in

the right space. The weightlessness that occurs with, for example, some

flipping movements of the kb can help the lifter learn when to

efficiently modulate force output by turning on/off what resources are

un/necessary at coincidental spacio-temporal moments. Examples of the

need to turn on/off motor units in an efficient manner can be found in

many ADL's and sports/activities, so the applicability of this raw

skill, to efficiently modulate force output, that can be developed by

using an implement such as a kb, is widespread across large and variable

populations.

Adam Cronin

Kettlebell Concepts, Inc.

NYC, NY