Re: Education vs. experience?

March 18, 2004

Tread lightly on the Drsquat.com forum. I was banned for brigning up

such issues. I was seen as " bad for buisness " . Dr. Hatfeild never

answered my questions, accused me of attacking him and banned me.

The intellect on that board is very low, as you are in the heart of

the beast. You will find that your questions will not be answered

simply becuase most there are ISSA certified folks. They have no

other option, and your ideas about education and regulation threaten

their well being.

Like most folks that are insecure, they will attack you instead of

the issues.

Good work.

Chad Touchberry

Midwestern State University

Wichita Falls, TX 76302

> Colleagues,

>

> I'm part of (well, the nexus of) a discussion on the DrSquat.com

> forum. After posting on the need for licensure in the personal

> training industry, I was largely accused of being anti-ISSA,

which,

> as most know, is the backing Association of the website.

>

> I was pulled off track and so decided to separate my two thoughts

> into two separate posts, titled " What does certification offer? "

> and " What does a degree offer? " My intent was only to

discriminate

> between the two as a form of education. Again, though, some

> sensitive souls in the ISSA perceived a personal attack, and now

Dr.

> Fred Hatfield has entered the fray.

>

> The beginning of my post entitled, " What does a degree offer? " :

>

> In an attempt to keeps our discussions more linear, I've separated

> this post from the 'certifications' one.

> Until a few years ago, there was no such thing as a degree in

> Kinesiology or Exercise Science or Biokinetics. Everything learned

> about our field was necessarily gleaned from texts written by

those

> with a plethora of anecdotal experience by little scientific

> background.

>

> Our fledgling industry is still dominated by this style of study.

> While many hard lessons HAVE been gained by experience instead of

> experiments, controlled study is necessary to separate the

> proverbial wheat from the proverbial chaff.

>

> I used to joke that the benefit of getting a Bachelor's degree was

> that it brought you up to a point where you were only 4 years

behind

> the field. This is because the peer-review process and publishing

> process for texts take awhile, so texts don't reach their student

> audiences until a few years after writing.

>

> What university is really meant to teach is the analytical thought

> process. The ability to read, disseminate, and process

information,

> often in the form of research, is a tremendous gift.

> *************

>

> Dr. Squat's less-than-magnamanious reply:

>

> " Getting an undergrad degree is part of the " growing up " process.

> Some folks grow up without a degree, and some need the

> experience. 'Course, I'm talking about the mental side of the

> maturation process. Most kids grow up in a relatively pedestrian

> atmosphere, intelectually speaking, let's face it. College gets

you

> out of that.

> Grad school lets you focus on a more limited field, giving you the

> discipline to trod down a narrow path toward good science.

>

> So, learning? Ya coulda just read a few books!

>

> But wisdom? ...give it time. "

>

> **************

>

> Gee, I guess I wasted 4 years of study time on non-important stuff

> like physiology, endocrinology, and kinesiology, when I could have

> (sorry, coulda) just paid my $550 US and known it all!

>

> Thoughts?

>

> The original debate can be viewed at www.DrSquat.com under

> the 'knowledge - q & a forum' section.

>

> BSc, CSCS

> Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario

March 25, 2004

I have the utmost respect for the Academics in the field of exercise physiology

and strength training. We have all met so called qualified professional fitness

trainers that dont know squat about real strength training, Some of them are

either wasting peoples time and money, or worse getting them hurt. Short of

having Siff or Zatsiorsky as a personnel coach I would want a seasoned

powerlifter with coaching experiance who reads alot. And I dont mean

bodybuilding magizines.

The greatest benefit I get from reading Siff/Zatsiorsky/Bompa besides the

organization of a traing program is the ability to discern fact from fallacy. I

admit that my lack of scientific training has in the past led me down some wrong

paths in strength training. This forum and authors like Siff have been very

valuable to me.

But when considering experiance versus education remember this. As a young lad

aspiring to lift and get strong I sought out the biggest/strongest guys in the

YMCA basement. This was in the 70s before their was such a thing as personnel

trainers [is that anything like a personal trainer? JRG], and our country was 20

years behind the iron curtain countries in strength science. Unfortunately some

of those I sought out were dumb as rocks, and others were wise old men in the

iron game. This is a cross roads for any young lad, and who they reach out to,

and the response they get tells where they will go from there. Few of us would

be where we are at if we hadnt gotten help or guidence unqualified or otherwise.

So what do I do when the young man or lady wants help in the weight room and

they ask me just beacause I'm strong? But instead of watching teenagers wander

aimlessly from station to station I stop what I'm doing and work them thru a few

sets of the basic exercises in some logical progressive fashion knowing that if

the bug bites them theyll be self motivated and learn on their own from me or

other resources. The attention given to these young strength seeker may very

well make the difference between being a fit or obese adult. A potential

fullfilling advocation as a powerlifter or a rather poor weekend warrior on the

basketball court. To those I must give back and help as safely as I know how.

It's the soft/middleaged who have spent to mutch time sedentry that scare the

hell out of me. I am approached all that time to help. Sometimes the fitness

trainer may well be wasting their time but at least he's insured and bonded.

Just my thoughts on the experiance/vs education issue.

Hal Lloyd

Nome Alaska

March 31, 2004

wrote,

>Heidi,

>

>I do not mean to be offensive but you should be more careful when stating

>your opinions on this subject. Understand that it is not necessarily a

>problem with those that have a certification vs. those with education

>(because even with the education you should get certifications to verify a

>minimal knowledge of training which is what a certification is for). The

>real argument is between those with experience and those that think that a

>Masters degree entitles them to be respected and sought after in the field.

>What you should understand is that 1. you can be self educated if you have

>the initiative to read and attend conferences on your own, 2. an education

>only gives you the knowledge to understand why YOU do things the way that

>YOU do them and why they work the way that they do, 3. experience is what

>gives you the ability to know what should be done and done next for athlete

> " a " to continue developing at the current rate or faster (education will

>increase your " portfolio " of training schemes to chose from).

>

>In reality, the " best " strength coaches are the ones that possess and

>continually strive to improve 1,2 & 3 (and all other aspects of their

>person). I quote the word best because it is hard to say what training is

>best and it gets harder as 1-3 develop. Your rate of improvement will not be

>solely based on your education, certifications, or experience. It is a

>function of your intelligence, ability to absorb and process information and

>observations, ability to make observations, the levels of experience and

>knowledge that you've surrounded yourself with, and your ability to apply

>all of this in the real world (not the theorectical one, though it has its

>place as well).

>

>Those arrogant and/or naive enough to think that they are better than or

>even intimidate others because of their qualifications (and not their proven

>abilities) will stall at a given level of development. Realizing that

>everyone has something to teach you and being open minded will accelerate your

>progression through the stages of development (which are limitless).

>Thinking and especially expressing that your better than someone else only

>shows insecurity (not to mean that you can't have a different oppinion than

>the next guy, but there is no reason to bash).

, I'd like to expand on this a bit and see if we are

basically in agreement or disagreement.

Tommy Kono wrote an entire chapter in his book on how practice

doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent. If you are practicing

the wrong thing all you do is get really good at doing it wrong.

IMO experience is a lot like that. They are a lot of experienced

trainers with certification who are terrible. Don't squat, etc. We

both know this. There are some very poor strength coaches at college

levels, which I'm sure you would agree with. So experience is only

valuable if it is the right experience. Of course there are also some

very good trainers and strength people with minimal formal education.

How is the right experience determined, especially since a poor

strength program can be covered over by good coaching in the specific

sport? Science is the only way - academics. Research.

I certainly agree that a person can be self-taught and learn a lot. I

have taken that approach myself. But I'm also working on a second

degree in kinesiology at age 45 because I want to be an expert. I'm

coaching athletes (well, one anyhow!) at the olympic level and I'm in

an undergraduate program. I certainly don't think I know it all.

OTOH, there are graduate students who are picking my brains on

technique in the squat and the clean, for example. They don't

discount experience and self-education, obviously.

One statement you made I disagree with is...

> " an education only gives you the knowledge to understand why YOU do

>things the way that

YOU do them and why they work the way that they do "

That would be a terribly close-minded individual who approaches

education as merely a way to reinforce what they are already doing.

Education should allow you to critically analyze and develop. Unless

you figure you are already perfect education should bring about some

sort of change.

Now, I still think we are taking much the same tact and you are

referring to 'formal education' when you say education. And I do

agree with the assessment in the movie " Good Will Hunting " that you

can get a $250,000 for $5 worth of late charges at a library. But we

also need the academic people who do the research that opens the

doors for new methods.

--

Hobman

Saskatoon, Canada

March 31, 2004

,

Very good points. I agree that it is the culmination of ed., cert.,

and experience. Grasp all three and as a coach you have a

synergestic effect on your training outcomes. Lack in one, and the

results will probably be less than what they COULD be.

By the same token, I don't feel its a bad thing to raise the bar and

exepect education and certification, AS WELL AS EXPERIENCE!

Chad Touchberry

Midwestern State University

Wichita Falls, TX 76302

> >

> >and Chad,

> >

> >Excellent points! As a pre-graduate student of Kinesiology I can

completely

> >agree with the intimidation and threat many of " certified "

individuals

> >feel.

> > If I were to have it MY way, certification courses would be 4

years long

> >and teach you point for point everything from the catabolism and

metabolism

> >of glucose to disability training and acute/ chronic injury

> >management....just to name a few! Unfortunately, this is not the

case;

> >from my own experiences, the knowledge and resources that are

available

> >through certification courses are indeed limiting.

> >

> >H. E. Richter; BHK, Registered Kinesiologist, CFC, BCRPA Weight

Trainer

> >University of British Columbia

> >Vancouver, Canada

> >

April 1, 2004

Thought I should share my personal message to Mr. s with the group:

Mr. s,

You have taken what was said out of context. The email was most certainly

not a bash! Not once did I write that degree qualified trainers are better

and impermeable to criticism; certification courses we have in Canada are

indeed limited in what they teach, and this has become very apparent to me

from my experience with them. Certainly, I agree learning and applying

with theory and experience is vital to being a good trainer. I also agree

that education can take many forms, it does not have to be a 4 year degree.

As and you stated, one should still obtain a certification to show minimal

understanding of training principles; one can obtain a degree (if possible)

to show that they have a GREAT understanding of training principles, the

physiology of human performance, and how to train yourself to utlilize this

knowledge for your clients.

It is undeniable that there are those out there who feel that the 2 or 3

week course alone warrants professionalism and the uttermost knowledge on

the subject. Do you not find it scary and gut wrenching when you hear/

see certified trainers train wrong because they haven’t put the time into

using the improvement function of their intelligence? Through my own

experience, when these people come in contact with someone who strives to

take it upon themselves to continually grow and achieve greater learning and

expertise in the field, it is intimidating. My degree is by no means a

vehicle for my confidence or arrogance as you so colourfully put.

My email was simply stating what others have already come to notice. What

was discussed is fact and cannot be denied and ignored. As you stated

intelligence and it’s improvement function allows one an " ...ability to

absorb and process... observations.. " , the email was exactly that. That

does not mean that I feel highly qualified individuals are perfect and

impermeable to criticism.

Thank you very much for your input. Perhaps you should observe and absorb

what the context of the discussion was and especially if you are going to

take it upon yourself to make character assumptions of highly qualified

persons. I speak for myself: arrogant and insecure, I think not.

H. E. Richter; BHK, Registered Kinesiologist, CFC, BCRPA Weight Trainer

University of British Columbia

Vancouver, Canada

>

>Reply-To: Supertraining

>To: Supertraining

>Subject: Education vs. experience?

>Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2004 21:02:54 +0000