Does bench pressing w/barbell damage anterior capsule of shoulder?

[Guest guest]

Dear Group,

A personal trainer/atc in my area has asserted that bench pressing

with a barbell damages tha anterior capsule of the shoulder. I

have done a search on medline and in the supertraining archives and

did not find any evidence to support his assertions. Do any of you

know of any evidence either supporting or contradicting this claim?

Thank you very much.

LeRoux

St. sburg, Florida

[Guest guest]

I think this is an example of the common confusion between correlation and

causation. You see plenty of injuries to the shoulder capsules of bench press

heroes, but the cause is generally a strength imbalance in the rotator cuff,

brought about by overemphasizing horizontal pushing movements and

underemphasizing horizontal pulling movements. The internal rotators thus

overpower the external rotators, eventually leading to injury.

McClinch

Arlington, VA

Does bench pressing w/barbell damage anterior

capsule of shoulder?

Dear Group,

A personal trainer/atc in my area has asserted that bench pressing

with a barbell damages tha anterior capsule of the shoulder. I

have done a search on medline and in the supertraining archives and

did not find any evidence to support his assertions. Do any of you

know of any evidence either supporting or contradicting this claim?

Thank you very much.

LeRoux

St. sburg, Florida

Modify or cancel your subscription here:

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[Guest guest]

Does this personal trainer/ATC have specific research him/herself to support

this information?

(and 'a guy who was lecturing me said so', doesn't count as a reference!! -

Driscoll Supertraining Moderator).

Mike Grafstein

B.Ph.Ed, CAT©, CSCS, MT, D.Ac

Newmarket, Ontario

Does bench pressing w/barbell damage anterior capsule

of shoulder?

Dear Group,

A personal trainer/atc in my area has asserted that bench pressing

with a barbell damages tha anterior capsule of the shoulder. I

have done a search on medline and in the supertraining archives and

did not find any evidence to support his assertions. Do any of you

know of any evidence either supporting or contradicting this claim?

Thank you very much.

LeRoux

St. sburg, Florida

[Guest guest]

There is no evidence of this, especially using a barbell (the chest limits

ROM). In order to cause damage to the capsule one would have to travel beyond

normal shoulder horizontal abduction and normal scapular retraction and it

would either have to be a weight beyond the individual's capabilities or

done at a high speed.

J s, MS, CSCS, USAW, NSCA-CPT

Assistant Strength & Conditioning Coach

College of ton

Strength Dept.

30 Str.

ton, SC 29424

(843)953-1424

(865)405-2136

jjacobs24@...

" Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to

reform " Mark Twain

" Human beings, by changing the inner attitudes of their minds, can change

the outer aspects of their lives "

>

>Reply-To: Supertraining

>To: Supertraining

>Subject: Does bench pressing w/barbell damage anterior

>capsule of shoulder?

>Date: Sun, 29 Aug 2004 17:30:25 -0000

>

>Dear Group,

>

>A personal trainer/atc in my area has asserted that bench pressing

>with a barbell damages tha anterior capsule of the shoulder. I

>have done a search on medline and in the supertraining archives and

>did not find any evidence to support his assertions. Do any of you

>know of any evidence either supporting or contradicting this claim?

>

>Thank you very much.

>

>LeRoux

>St. sburg, Florida

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well, I'd say that the vast number of competing powerlifters would argue

against the idea that barbell pressing damages the shoulder..

The fact that both men and women, of all ages, perform the bench press using

great weights and generally safely without much incidence of injury suggests

that this person is in error and that the myth should be retired with the

" don't squat deep " myth...

I've competed powerlifting for over 8 years now and I haven't suffered any

injury to my shoulder. I also have seen only 2 incidences of injury

specifically to the AC joints of the shoulder, due to the size of the notch

in the shoulder - that were mechanically not suited to the movement and the

person had this condition from birth - that is, they were not degenerative

due to bench pressing movements nor to moving the large weights they were

both using.

Both individuals had surgery to shave down the clavicle to better rotate in

the joint and have returned to competition.

I apologize that this is anecdotal and not in some convenient study - but I

think your point would be proven by asking the person in question to

investigate the powerlifters as a population where the barbell press does

not destroy the shoulder...

I have personally found that the barbell bench press, performed with good

form and paused, within the rules of my powerlifting federation, to not have

damaged my shoulders. I perform this move over my bodyweight for a single

in competition, and I'm a 44 yo female.

The only cautions I recall hearing regarding the anterior shoulder and

benching were related to the notion that overworking this area by way of

heavy bench coupled with heavy power cleans/OL moves MIGHT cause some

problems. I don't personally know anyone who HAS experienced this.

Barring biomechanical problems in the joint as noted above, I don't see any

reason for the worry about the bench if the form is good and the individual

is in good health.

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

It was written:

> Dear Group,

>

> A personal trainer/atc in my area has asserted that bench pressing

> with a barbell damages tha anterior capsule of the shoulder. I

> have done a search on medline and in the supertraining archives and

> did not find any evidence to support his assertions. Do any of you

> know of any evidence either supporting or contradicting this claim?

>

> Thank you very much.

>

> LeRoux

> St. sburg, Florida

[Guest guest]

Hi Chris

I'm afraid that I can't point you to any studies but

many powerlifters I've trained with and spoken to have

said that benching wide (elbows flared) will in time

produce shoulder problems, this matches my own

experience as well, since I started keeping my elbows

in my shoulders have been much better. Having said

that the development of overuse injuries depends on

many things (frequency, volume, intensity,etc) so ,as

such I wouldn't pay much attention to the rather

simplistic comment that BB benching is bad for the

shoulders, perhaps if many personal trainers actually

knew how to bench press then maybe comments like this

wouldn't be made.

Regards Young,

London, U.K.

--- christopherleroux

wrote:

> Dear Group,

>

> A personal trainer/atc in my area has asserted that

> bench pressing

> with a barbell damages tha anterior capsule of the

> shoulder. I

> have done a search on medline and in the

> supertraining archives and

> did not find any evidence to support his assertions.

> Do any of you

> know of any evidence either supporting or

> contradicting this claim?

>

> Thank you very much.

>

> LeRoux

> St. sburg, Florida

[Guest guest]

Mr. Wathen,

Thank you very, very much. I will check out those articles. This

trainer sent a letter to the high school I coach at declaring my

curriculum as unsafe. He has no evidence to back it up and simply

claims that " everyone knows in baseball that barbell bench presses

damage the anterior capsule. "

My school isn't worried about the letter, but it bothers me that a

certified ATC and someone claiming to have dome kind of MS degree

would spread such misinformation in such an arrogant fashion. This

person based his entire declaration on the fact that my kids do some

bench pressing with the barbell, and he did not know anything about

the rest of the program, which is basically a weightlifting regime

(snatch, c+j, push press, snatch and clean pulls, front and back

squats, etc). He didn't even know the difference between weight

training, bodybuilding, weightlifting and powerlifting.

Thanks again,

LeRoux

St. sburg, FL (Hurricane central)

MS, CSCS, USAW Regional Coach

-- In Supertraining , " icp328 " <icp328@y...> wrote:

> ---

> Hi Chris!

>

> Check out a couple of papers. Fees et al in American Journal of

> Sports Medicine 26(5):732-742. 1998. Reeves et al in Physician &

> Sportsmedicine 28(2):67-85. 1998.

>

> In general your ok with BP but some of the older( over 30 )

population

> has problems.

>

> Best wishes!

>

> Dan Wathen,

> Youngstown (OH) State University

>

> In Supertraining , " christopherleroux "

> <chrisdleroux@h...> wrote:

> > Dear Group,

> >

> > A personal trainer/atc in my area has asserted that bench

pressing

> > with a barbell damages tha anterior capsule of the shoulder. I

> > have done a search on medline and in the supertraining archives

and

> > did not find any evidence to support his assertions. Do any of

you

> > know of any evidence either supporting or contradicting this

claim?

> >

> > Thank you very much.

> >

> > LeRoux

> > St. sburg, Florida

[Guest guest]

Currently, I am experiencing anterior shoulder pain. I believe the pain is

more tendonitis , or some sort of soft tissue problem that simply needs rest

and absolute correct form that can be provided during recovery by using

bench press machines like those made by Hammer Strength. Also, on chest day,

I find it beneficial to do opposing muscle group training, such as dumbell

rows. Flexibility, ie, range of motion seems to be a factor.

I believe there is confusion of many people between actual joint injury

and soft tissue injury, rellevent to this discussion.

I may stand corrected.

Carson Wood

State of Maine

U.S.A.

[Guest guest]

Mike,

No. This person stood on his " 20 years of experience in baseball " and

the " fact " that " everyone in baseball knows that barbell bench

presses are bad, especially for throwers. "

He could cite no evidence. He wasn't familiar with Hamil's research

comparing injury rates in pl, wl, and wt with other sports, etc or

any other studies in this area which I listed and described for him.

After hammering him with the evidence that powerlifters have such low

injury rates for a while, he finally backed down to stating that " it

was his opinion and his opinion wouldn't change. " Of course, I

explained to him that if he had only written in the letter to my

school that it was " his opinion that my curriculum was unsafe " then I

wouldn't have had quite such a big problem with him. But, he stated

it as fact.

Should I see a lawyer or forget about it? I hate to see such people

spread such misinformation. He already managed to take a promising

young baseball player out of my weight training class with this

letter and who knows what other damage he could be doing to lifting

knowledge in our area. Is is worth my time or should I focus on the

150-200 other kids I am responsible for?

Thanks again to all who have responded,

LeRoux

St. sburg, Florida (Hurricane Central)

MS, CSCS, USAW Regional Coach

>

>

> Does this personal trainer/ATC have specific research him/herself

to support this information?

> (and 'a guy who was lecturing me said so', doesn't count as a

reference!! - Driscoll Supertraining Moderator).

>

> Mike Grafstein

> B.Ph.Ed, CAT©, CSCS, MT, D.Ac

> Newmarket, Ontario

>

> Does bench pressing w/barbell damage

anterior capsule of shoulder?

>

>

> Dear Group,

>

> A personal trainer/atc in my area has asserted that bench

pressing

> with a barbell damages tha anterior capsule of the shoulder. I

> have done a search on medline and in the supertraining archives

and

> did not find any evidence to support his assertions. Do any of

you

> know of any evidence either supporting or contradicting this

claim?

>

> Thank you very much.

>

> LeRoux

> St. sburg, Florida

[Guest guest]

Reading these replies it occurs to me that the barbell was specifically

mentioned and I wonder if this isn't really a reversal of advice, perhaps on the

ATC's part. Dumbell bench pressing, some machines and cords, and db flyes can

all allow too great a ROM and posterior positioning of the shoulder and could

lead to anterior shoulder injuries, while this is mostly prevented by the chest

using a barbell.

Randy Dixon

Harlingen, TX

Hi Chris

I'm afraid that I can't point you to any studies but

many powerlifters I've trained with and spoken to have

said that benching wide (elbows flared) will in time

produce shoulder problems, this matches my own

experience as well, since I started keeping my elbows

in my shoulders have been much better. Having said

that the development of overuse injuries depends on

many things (frequency, volume, intensity,etc) so ,as

such I wouldn't pay much attention to the rather

simplistic comment that BB benching is bad for the

shoulders, perhaps if many personal trainers actually

knew how to bench press then maybe comments like this

wouldn't be made.

Regards Young,

London, U.K.

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

LeRoux,

Young seems to be one of the only people looking at this from

an objective science standpoint. Most others are providing " I'm not

hurt, and none of my friend's are hurt, so benching is good! "

That's all fine and dandy, but that doesn't answer your question,

does it?

When you OBJECTIVELY look at an exercise, you must look at common

performance (technique) AND joint mechanics. In this case, (BB

bench press) your shoulder is moving into transverse extension

(horizontal abduction). Prior to asking someone to perform this

exercise, you must first assess their active range (in transverse

extension). Try having them hold something light, like a

broomstick, at the width they would be holding the bar. Have them

perform the " bench press " movement to see if they can touch the

stick to their chest. If they can't, the BB bench may not be a good

exercise for them I'll explain later).

Also pay attention to how much shoulder abduction they have while

performing this. When you keep 90 degrees of abduction and then

perform transverse extension, you have less range. If you were to

allow the elbows to drop (shoulder adduction), you get more range

into transverse extension - example:

1) If you go into shoulder abduction, with transverse extension, the

anterior joint capsule, and ligaments tighten. They tighten even

more if you externally rotate (close packed position)

2) As you let the shoulder come down into some adduction, let's say

75-80 degrees of abduction, the passive structures allow for more

range into transverse extension. Hence, why people suggest to bring

the bar to " nipple line " , instead of the older " bring it to your

collar bone " method.

Now you may be able to see why if they couldn't touch the stick to

their chest, this will put stress on the anterior capsule and

ligaments. If you do not first assess them without weight, and put

a bar in their hand, it may go all the way down to their chest.

Even if it is a modest amount of weight, that stress over time may

eventually cause damage.

I was a power lifter myself, and have trained quite a few strength

athletes in my 10+ year career. During this time I have only met a

handful of athletes that have not, at minimum, at least complained

of shoulder issues. Who is to say the problems were not associated

in some part to the bench press. You can not make a statement

like, " my arms didn't fall off while benching, so they don't cause

shoulder problems! " . That's my two cents!

Joe DeAntonis

Pittsburgh, PA

> > Dear Group,

> >

> > A personal trainer/atc in my area has asserted that

> > bench pressing

> > with a barbell damages tha anterior capsule of the

> > shoulder. I

> > have done a search on medline and in the

> > supertraining archives and

> > did not find any evidence to support his assertions.

> > Do any of you

> > know of any evidence either supporting or

> > contradicting this claim?

> >

> > Thank you very much.

> >

> > LeRoux

> > St. sburg, Florida

[Guest guest]

,

I'm not going to say that it is " bad " to do deep squats, but exactly

how deep is ok according to your analysis? And with how much load,

does that factor in? Is there any science behind your statements

(not necessarily a study, but maybe application of physics), or just

examples from " people you know " ?

Back to the bench. The original message from stated that some

trainer said bench pressing causes damage to the anterior shoulder

capsule. From your message I am going to gather that your

assumption is that if you do not have a shoulder injury, the

anterior capsule is not damaged. If the anterior capsule is slowly

stretched, there may be no immediate pain/injury, but over time,

there is a good possibility that the instability created by the

damaged capsule could eventually lead to shoulder problems that show

up in a seemingly unrelated event.

Although this will neither be proven nor disproven via clinical

trials, hopefully it makes you think. Knowing a little about

mechanics, physics and physiology makes this a very real issue to me

and should to you. I hope you think about it a little. Again, I am

not stating that the bench is bad, if fact, it is a great exercise

for many people. I am just saying we need to assess people before

making them do stuff. You can read my other post for a little more

on the mechanics of a bench press and pre exercise assessment.

Thanks.

Joe DeAntonis

Pittsburgh, PA

> Well, I'd say that the vast number of competing powerlifters would

argue

> against the idea that barbell pressing damages the shoulder..

>

> The fact that both men and women, of all ages, perform the bench

press using

> great weights and generally safely without much incidence of

injury suggests

> that this person is in error and that the myth should be retired

with the

> " don't squat deep " myth...

>

> I've competed powerlifting for over 8 years now and I haven't

suffered any

> injury to my shoulder. I also have seen only 2 incidences of

injury

> specifically to the AC joints of the shoulder, due to the size of

the notch

> in the shoulder - that were mechanically not suited to the

movement and the

> person had this condition from birth - that is, they were not

degenerative

> due to bench pressing movements nor to moving the large weights

they were

> both using.

>

> Both individuals had surgery to shave down the clavicle to better

rotate in

> the joint and have returned to competition.

>

> I apologize that this is anecdotal and not in some convenient

study - but I

> think your point would be proven by asking the person in question

to

> investigate the powerlifters as a population where the barbell

press does

> not destroy the shoulder...

>

> I have personally found that the barbell bench press, performed

with good

> form and paused, within the rules of my powerlifting federation,

to not have

> damaged my shoulders. I perform this move over my bodyweight for

a single

> in competition, and I'm a 44 yo female.

>

> The only cautions I recall hearing regarding the anterior shoulder

and

> benching were related to the notion that overworking this area by

way of

> heavy bench coupled with heavy power cleans/OL moves MIGHT cause

some

> problems. I don't personally know anyone who HAS experienced

this.

>

> Barring biomechanical problems in the joint as noted above, I

don't see any

> reason for the worry about the bench if the form is good and the

individual

> is in good health.

>

> The Phantom

> aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

> Denver, Colorado, USA

>

>

> It was written:

>

> > Dear Group,

> >

> > A personal trainer/atc in my area has asserted that bench

pressing

> > with a barbell damages tha anterior capsule of the shoulder. I

> > have done a search on medline and in the supertraining archives

and

> > did not find any evidence to support his assertions. Do any of

you

> > know of any evidence either supporting or contradicting this

claim?

> >

> > Thank you very much.

> >

> > LeRoux

> > St. sburg, Florida

[Guest guest]

---

Hi Chris!

Fight with facts. Go to the literature and arm yourself with factural

information. Present your findings to the proper authorities and let

them decide. I find it nearly impossible to keep males from doing

bench presses. Someone told our baseball coach that dumbells were

beter for bench presses so all our team does dumbell bench presses

which allows for more range of motion and potential capsular stretch

if you buy the argument against bench press. We have had no increase

in shoulder injuries and were conference (Horizion League) champs last

spring. Gather the facts then present your side of the argument. I

think baseball players can properly conditon with and without bench

presses so either way you can get the job done.

Good luck!

Dan Wathen, Youngstown (OH) State University, USA

In Supertraining , " christopherleroux "

<chrisdleroux@h...> wrote:

> Mike,

>

> No. This person stood on his " 20 years of experience in baseball " and

> the " fact " that " everyone in baseball knows that barbell bench

> presses are bad, especially for throwers. "

>

> He could cite no evidence. He wasn't familiar with Hamil's research

> comparing injury rates in pl, wl, and wt with other sports, etc or

> any other studies in this area which I listed and described for him.

> After hammering him with the evidence that powerlifters have such low

> injury rates for a while, he finally backed down to stating that " it

> was his opinion and his opinion wouldn't change. " Of course, I

> explained to him that if he had only written in the letter to my

> school that it was " his opinion that my curriculum was unsafe " then I

> wouldn't have had quite such a big problem with him. But, he stated

> it as fact.

>

> Should I see a lawyer or forget about it? I hate to see such people

> spread such misinformation. He already managed to take a promising

> young baseball player out of my weight training class with this

> letter and who knows what other damage he could be doing to lifting

> knowledge in our area. Is is worth my time or should I focus on the

> 150-200 other kids I am responsible for?

>

> Thanks again to all who have responded,

>

> LeRoux

> St. sburg, Florida (Hurricane Central)

> MS, CSCS, USAW Regional Coach

>

>

> >

> >

> > Does this personal trainer/ATC have specific research him/herself

> to support this information?

> > (and 'a guy who was lecturing me said so', doesn't count as a

> reference!! - Driscoll Supertraining Moderator).

> >

> > Mike Grafstein

> > B.Ph.Ed, CAT©, CSCS, MT, D.Ac

> > Newmarket, Ontario

> >

> > Does bench pressing w/barbell damage

> anterior capsule of shoulder?

> >

> >

> > Dear Group,

> >

> > A personal trainer/atc in my area has asserted that bench

> pressing

> > with a barbell damages tha anterior capsule of the shoulder. I

> > have done a search on medline and in the supertraining archives

> and

> > did not find any evidence to support his assertions. Do any of

> you

> > know of any evidence either supporting or contradicting this

> claim?

> >

> > Thank you very much.

> >

> > LeRoux

> > St. sburg, Florida

[Guest guest]

Ok Joe.

With all due respect to your wish for studies, I have to say this.

A study with a limited number of people in an isolated lab vs the entire

sport of competing powerlifting?

Olympic lifters too, such as Shane Hamman, are examples of persons who also

have done low and quite heavily weighted squats. We clearly are still

walking around AND competing well into " senior " years.

Dr. Mel Siff also used to comment to me that cultures where there were few

chairs had far less (almost no) incidence of hip replacement.. Due to the

deep squatting posture they used to sit.

In fact, Joe, if you want studies? Check the archives. Mel did THOROUGH

discussions of the squat and depth, defenses thereof. I'm sure Any of the

moderators can link that in here. There is LITTLE point in my going back

over territory so THOROUGHLY discussed by MEL HIMSELF.

As a competing powerlifter, Please realize the bench and the squat IF

PERFORMED with proper FORM are NOT HAZARDS.

The danger lies in misinformation, and miscoaching. Ignorance, as perhaps

the proper word is, for the person ran across who told him he'd hurt

himself, without any basis. The trainer did not even give a reference of

another coached individual nor his own reason...i.e. had HE injured himself,

that would be more than the scant comment he gave?

The responsibility lies with the individual to evaluate if the move is right

for them AND any coaches they hire or have to again, assist those unable to

decide for themselves, based on fact, not fiction.

I'm quite frankly tired of defending moves that thousands of powerlifters do

on a weekly basis with well, in the case of the squat, over 1/2 a ton in

some cases without death or mutiliation.

The bench too is now performed with weights getting closer than I would have

expected - again, around 900 pounds now.

The attacks on the deadlift continue by way of CNS overload and other

things. " You'll hurt your back " . Unlikely again, vast numbers of people

performing the lift safely over careers...

Any excuse not to lift apparently, THAT is more dangerous than the lifts.

As for practical, in the field examples from people i know? Competing

powerlifters of say, 24 years on the platform don't count? I suspect it's

better than that sample of " persons who were sedentary recruited for this

study " or " people who were possibly lifters but we aren't sure, we just got

them signed up for 6 weeks under our eye.. " .

If the bench was going to be a serious anterior capsule hazard, it would

show up MORE prevalent in a group performing it on a regular, weekly, basis

and with more weight than the general haphazard gym population.

Powerlifters.

Trainers say lots of things, especially if they aren't good at coaching a

move. Few even know what a deadlift, squat or bench really is supposed to

look like? it isn't required for certification, is it.

As for my need to quote studies, and from info from " people I know " are you

dismissing Mel's comments because I was fortunate enough to know him? Mel

didn't believe the bench was dangerous, we even benched together at his home

gym. Mel also possessed the deepest squat I've ever witnessed, sinking to

his heels from his over 6'2 " height. He tended to brush the floor. He used

over his bodyweight frequently and worked in a quick and efficient manner in

his training too. Apparently for Mel, brushing the floor constituted a safe

squat depth. For me, I train to the IPF requirement of approximately 2 "

below parallel. If Mel had no qualms about doing that deep a squat, I'd

have to say that was safe for him. Again, I wouldn't expect everyone to do

that, nor my below parallel one either. You must evaluate the needs of the

individual, the goals, and the health of the person involved. But for the

healthy person with no physical reason not to, squat depth to the floor

would not be a problem. It's just a problem with people who BELIEVE it to

be dangerous... If Mel didn't think it dangerous, why would and should I?

Had Mel believed the moves of powerlifting to be dangerous, I doubt he would

have had a Westside seminar at his gym either. In fact, had Mel cautioned

me about any part of my powerlifting, I would have taken HIS advice quite

seriously. Why? Mel's expertise was not only academic, but as an elite and

capable athlete in his own right.

Studies are good for writing papers, but in the end, it's what happens in

the field that really tells the tale. If a move truly did ruin one's

anterior shoulder solely by doing it, people would not be doing it, and

persisting in training this move over the course of decades, into their

master years.

Warmest Regards,

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter and yes, I do bench.

Denver, Colorado, USA.

It was written:

> ,

>

> I'm not going to say that it is " bad " to do deep squats, but exactly

> how deep is ok according to your analysis? And with how much load,

> does that factor in? Is there any science behind your statements

> (not necessarily a study, but maybe application of physics), or just

> examples from " people you know " ?

>

> Back to the bench. The original message from stated that some

> trainer said bench pressing causes damage to the anterior shoulder

> capsule. From your message I am going to gather that your

> assumption is that if you do not have a shoulder injury, the

> anterior capsule is not damaged. If the anterior capsule is slowly

> stretched, there may be no immediate pain/injury, but over time,

> there is a good possibility that the instability created by the

> damaged capsule could eventually lead to shoulder problems that show

> up in a seemingly unrelated event.

>

> Although this will neither be proven nor disproven via clinical

> trials, hopefully it makes you think. Knowing a little about

> mechanics, physics and physiology makes this a very real issue to me

> and should to you. I hope you think about it a little. Again, I am

> not stating that the bench is bad, if fact, it is a great exercise

> for many people. I am just saying we need to assess people before

> making them do stuff. You can read my other post for a little more

> on the mechanics of a bench press and pre exercise assessment.

> Thanks.

>

> Joe DeAntonis

> Pittsburgh, PA

>

[Guest guest]

Here are some related discussions from deep in the archive when we were blessed

to have Dr. Siff. Hope this helps

Dick Mills, the person who runs a website (http://www.pitching.com) to

educate baseball pitchers, continues to run his campaign against serious

strength training for baseballers, claiming that heavier lifting is the cause of

many injuries in his sport. As you will note, all of his discussion so far has

been based entirely upon anecdotal evidence and some very flawed Chek

" biomechanical " beliefs and never draws on any scientific or epidemiological

evidence (visit our archives for analysis of the nonsense on bench pressing

evils, etc).

He never once acknowledges the fact that most injuries in baseball pitching are

caused by some problems associated with the pitching action of individual

pitchers, and that any type of exercise, be it weight resisted or not, can be

harmful or dangerous if not carried out with skill and sensible programming.

If he were being entirely unbiased, he would study the literature and admit that

baseball produces far more shoulder injuries - or for that matter, far more

musculoskeletal injuries - than top level Olympic weightlifting. He would then

have to condemn baseball as a high risk sport, at least as far as the shoulder

joint is concerned. However, knowing that this is the case, he should rather

recruit the aid of strength and conditioning experts and ask them to assist him

in devising ways of stress hardening the body of the pitcher to be able to cope

more effectively with the demands of repetitive pitching week in, week out.

Most important, he needs to appreciate that it is not simply a given exercise or

means of training that is dangerous, but the way in which any exercise or means

is used in training. He would do well to analyse exactly why certain pitchers

are being injured and not rely on belief and opinion. For example, Stottlemyre,

admits " can only guess why he suffered damage to the nerve on his pitching

side " , so it does no credit to him or his sport to make prejudiced

( " pre-judged " ) and totally unproven associations between strength training and

baseball injuries.

It would appear that Mills and Stottlemyre are both looking for some

convenient scapegoat to blame for individual mistakes, lack of scientific

training knowledge, stupidity, overuse or just plain bad luck. Heaven forbid

that they blame their beloved pitching! Let them accept that it is not bad or

harmful to admit that some actions in your favourite sport can be dangerous, for

that is the nature of sport - and move on from there.

Of course, all of us who compete in the heavy lifting sports know that the

competitive movements can be dangerous if we do not know what we are doing, if

we are unprepared, overenthusiastic or pigheaded, but we make very sure that we

learn how to train and move to minimise the risks. If we are injured, then we

don't blame our sport automatically -we look to see where WE went wrong. If

Mills, Stottlemyre and any pitchers are being injured in their sport or in the

weight room, let them look to THEMSELVES first, for the answer usually is very

close to home.

Here are some gems from his latest article, which, as usual are based on

anecdote and opinion.

<Stottlemyre works his body from head to toe five days a week under the

supervision of a physical therapist at a valley fitness facility. He has

abandoned his heavy weight training for " functional training. " The exercises

stimulate the motions he will need on the mound, from throwing, to reacting, to

running.>

*** Here we go again - some more mythology about this seriously overplayed

concept of " functional training " (see our archives for more on the sense and

nonsense about the grave misunderstanding associated with this term). Moreover,

he would do well to study literature that shows how " simulation training " can

interfere with the motor patterns of any sport. The best " simulation training " ,

as has been shown and proved repeatedly is practise with the sporting actions

themselves, not imitation of the sporting actions with some or other exercise

which simulates the sporting action.

<I'm making sure my ankles, knees, hips, core - the whole chain - is working

together to throw a baseball. " >

*** Does he not realise that all of the components of the body that are

involved with pitching are best trained by pitching itself? No amount of light

or heavy weight training, physical therapy, ball balancing or machine methods is

going to enhance pitching SKILL and teach the body how best to recruit the

muscles in the pitching action. Strength and other adjunct TRAINING only serves

to improve the structural and functional POTENTIAL of the body, while sports

PRACTICE teaches the motor skills involved. That is why we classically

distinguish between TRAINING and PRACTICE. That is also why Dick Mills is so

seriously misunderstanding and maligning heavier strength training.

<Stottlemyre can only guess why he suffered damage to the nerve on his

pitching side. He can say he overcompensated with the shoulder and elbow

injuries. It could be from the heavy squat lifts with the bar on his shoulders.

(It could have been muscle imbalance. My words not Todd's.) >

*** It sounds as if Stottlemyre didn't have much access to skilled strength

training advice or management when he used the gym. Unfortunately, there are

still far too many athletes, coaches and organisations that still think that any

fool can train himself and other fools in the gym with minimal formal education

in strength training. That is somewhat like a chimpanzee watching a baseball

pitcher and becoming a competent, safe pitcher of the highest calibre!

Read the rest of what Mills has to say and share your own comments with the rest

of us.

---------------------------------------

What Happened To This Big Leaguer In The Weight Room?

http://www.pitching.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/006904.html

<I am sure that many of you are thinking about what you will do in the

off-season for strength training. We are certainly not against a certain amount

of weight training but more, heavier or explosive weight lifting is not in our

opinion the way to go. There are far better and safer means that will get you

where you want to go with much better overall results and performance on the

mound.

Here is a post from last year about a big leaguer who learned the hard way.

---------- ------------ ----------

After Tood Stottlemyre hurt his shoulder the first time his prescription for

rehabing his arm was heavy lifting. There were several posts on this site by the

" heavy weight " advocates saying: " See we told you heavy weight lifting is where

it's at. "

I'll tell you in a second what Todd is doing now to get himself back after a

second injury. And it sure isn't heavy weight lifting.

Todd Stottlemyre has completely changed his philosophy since his arm problems

reoccured.

Why do arm problems reoccur? Many times because too many think that once you

strengthen the arm you are out of the deep water. We have preached for the past

two years, that when you hurt your arm, just strengthening the arm is not the

answer. You must strengthen the core, maintain flexibility and if need be make

the mechanical adjustment. Then the sore arms go away.

Listen to what Todd Stottlemyre now says in an article in today's Arizona

Republic:

" Stottlemyre works his body from head to toe five days a week under the

supervision of a physical therapist at a valley fitness facility. He has

abandoned his heavy weight training for " functional training. " The exercises

stimulate the motions he will need on the mound, from throwing, to reacting, to

running. He said this is the best program he has ever been on, because, by the

time he's ready to pitch again, his whole body will be ready. Todd says: " I'll

be ready to withstand what a major league pitcher goes through, 30 to 35 starts,

during the course of a season. " " My legs will be ready for it. My core will be

ready for it. My shoulder will be ready for it. My elbow will be ready for it.

I'm making sure my ankles, knees, hips, core - the whole chain - is working

together to throw a baseball. " Stottlemyre can only guess why he suffered damage

to the nerve on his pitching side. He can say he overcompensated with the

shoulder and elbow injuries. It could be from the heavy squat lifts with the bar

on his shoulders. (It could have been muscle imbalance. My words not Todd's.)

Anyway, there you have it. A major leaguer, a former heavy weight advocate

changes his tune. Why? Because he finally realizes that " functional training "

makes sense. That functional training works the entire chain and doesn't

overload the joints that end up leading to injuries of all sorts.

Many of the elbow and shoulder injuries that seem to be on this forum almost

daily are just the result of a lack of balance in working the entire body. Hit

the heavy weights, bench press heavy, do heavy squats, leg press, leg curl,

military press etc and all the non functional exercises that will soon be part

of the dark ages of baseball training.

So for those out there who have been sold a bill of goods to bench press heavy

or squat heavy or do anything for that matter that works just one particular

area in order for you to be baseball pitching strong, you had better rethink who

you are listening to.

You may say I feel fine. Well just wait until this heavy weight lifting catches

up with you. It might not be for the next two years but it might just be when

you hope to make that move to the next level.

In the meantime, the smart ones are working on functional training and

flexibility and also working on their mechanics.

What are you doing? You may want to rethink your strength training program. Or

pay a heavy price with an arm injury or a lack of overall performance...>

--------------------

Dr Mel C Siff

Denver, USA

" BIG BENCH, BAD SHOULDERS! "

by Chek

Why all the fuss over a big bench-press? What does the sheer amount of weight

that someone can push whilst lying flat on their back have to do with

anything? If you're sitting with a bunch of guys and someone strong walks in,

it's common to hear " I wonder what he can bench? " . Or when discussing sport,

the same question comes up, " How much can so-and-so bench? " When I go to a

party and meet people, you can be as sure as the presence of beer that

someone will ask, " What can you bench? " It is always great fun to see their

reaction when I tell them " Not much, but I can run 30 meters flat out with

Malu Mainu'u on my back! "

The bench press exercise was never intended to be a benchmark of man (or

woman!) hood. It is an exercise for improving the size and/or strength of the

chest, anterior deltoids and triceps, nothing else. In fact, the star player

on any team is rarely the one with the biggest bench press! Unfortunately,

over-emphasis on the bench press often coupled with poor technique has led to

a high incidence of shoulder injuries in both athletes and non-athletes.

Additionally many people are not anatomically designed to perform the

exercise as it is generally taught in most strength training texts, Personal

Trainer certification courses and by many strength coaches.

[Mel Siff: ***While poor benching technique may well lead to shoulder

injury, there is no scientific or clinical evidence that provides clear proof

that bench pressing per se will compromise shoulder health and stability -

just as is the case with ALL exercises. This sort of remark is tantamount

to saying that all running is dangerous because a large percentage of knee

injuries occur during running activities! From our recent prolonged

discussions on running technique, we should know by now that any exercise may

be performed poorly or dangerously.]

The Problem with Traditional Technique

The bar is lowered until it touches the chest and then pressed back up to the

start position. Everyone is expected to lower the bar to the chest; anything

less is considered poor form, sub-standard, and even wimpy by fellow lifters.

However, to perform the exercise under such guidelines requires a greater

range of motion (ROM) than is found in the shoulder joint of most people –

particularly male athletes. Why is it so important to work within the ROM of

your shoulder joint? Some simple anatomy will help to explain this.

The movement-restricting factor during a bench press is not the muscles of

the shoulder; it is the special connective tissue casing around the shoulder

joint called the " joint capsule " . This highly specialized structure is

anatomically designed to not only allow just the right amount of motion to

prevent joint damage, but also contains thousands of specialized nerve

endings called " proprioceptors " .

[Mel Siff: *** Only partially correct - the active, contractile muscles can

restrict the range of movement from only a few centimetres of movement to the

extreme of range where the non-contractile tissues such as the capsule and

ligaments then take over to passively control the action. The capsule plays

a far greater role as one reaches one's active range of movement.

Chek is referring to the situation where one goes way beyond the position

where the active muscles can exert any further force on the bar and nobody

ever teaches that as a desirable or sensible way of bench pressing. If one

observes the real bench pressing experts, namely the powerlifters, one would

note that they use a tense body arch and very high chest thrust to limit the

excessively deep descent of the bar. You don't have to rely on the capsule

and ligaments to act as the final arbiters of shoulder safety! If injuries

are being caused during bench press, it has far more to do with poor

technique than the nature of the bench press itself.

If one examines pitching action, which, by the way is explosive and ballistic

(both condemned by so many " experts " in strength conditioning!!) and reliant

on violent stretching of the joint capsule, tendons and other passive

structures of the shoulder, there is far more potential to compromise

shoulder integrity than any well-taught bench pressing.

Even though I am a Weightlifter who is not often encouraged to do bench

pressing, I have done so just for fun over a very full range with loads in

excess of 140kg (308lbs) a few times a week (at a bodymass of around 90kg)

for more than three decades and have never found that my shoulder integrity

has been harmed in the least for snatching and jerking. In fact, I have

never ever injured my shoulder in lifting training or competition and I know

many colleagues who have benched and done Olympic lifts for many years

without any shoulder problems. That's my anecdotal evidence to answer Chek's

anecdotal evidence! ]

Proprioceptors are special nerve endings that communicate with the brain to

inform it of joint position and speed of movement, as well as pressure,

tension and pain in and around the joint. Loading the shoulder and forcing it

beyond the functional ROM limit will stretch the shoulder joint capsule. In

most people this will occur by letting the bench-press bar travel until it

touches the chest.

[Mel Siff: *** Allowing any joint to move under loading over its current

maximum range of active movement has been shown to produce exceptionally

efficient 'functional' motor ability - see Iashvili's research cited in Ch 3

of " Supertraining " . In fact, Russian sports scientists have long recognised

that this sort of training enhances both conventional flexibility and a

special strength quality known as " flexibility-strength " (see Ch 1 of

" Supertraining " ). Anyway, the level of stress imposed upon the shoulder is a

function of several variables including hand spacing, load, path trajectory

and rate of movement. Shoulder integrity also depends on duration of

movement, relative reliance on the different types of muscle action

(eccentric, concentric and isometric), as well as the use of prestretch,

relaxation at the bottom of the action and rest intervals between reps and

sets. By making no reference to any of these variables, Chek's comments are

misleading and gravely incomplete.]

Additionally, because the bench press is performed on a flat weight lifting

bench, normal movement of the shoulder blades (scapulae) is disrupted. This

demands that more movement must occur in the shoulder joint itself. As the

bar is loaded with heavier and heavier weights, the shoulder blades are

pressed into the bench harder and harder, further disrupting the normal

mechanics of the shoulder girdle joints and overloading the shoulder.

How far should you let the bar travel when performing a bench press?

To protect the shoulder joint capsule from being stretched out or injured the

exerciser must determine how far to safely lower the bar. It is essential

that each person determine optimal bench press range of motion for his or her

own shoulders, as each person is different.

[Mel Siff: *** While this last comment is valid for any given instant, it

assumes that one's range of 'functional' movement is a constant and cannot be

altered. Of course, we all know that we should work within our own current

range of movement, but we also need to appreciate that our current individual

ranges may not be optimal for us or our sports. This is what the principles

of gradual progressive overload and SAID (Specific Adaptation to Imposed

demands) are all about. Since actions such as pitching involve explosive

loading of the shoulder over extended range of movement, it necessitates

enhancement of qualities such as flexibility-strength and explosive strength,

as well as shoulder stability, which may be offered by appropriate forms of

intelligent bench pressing. One should not throw out the bench pressing

baby with the guru bath waters!]

--------------------------------

FURTHER DISCUSSION

Someone on another list commented on my remarks, thus:

<< I am not a sport biomechanist by any means, but caution must be used in

prescribing the traditional power lifting style bench press in the javelin

thrower and baseball pitcher. I think Dr Siff would agree that the flat

bench acts as a fulcrum on the glenohumeral joint.>>

*** Forgive my delayed reply, but I have recently returned to the USA after a

lecture tour of the UK. Actually, I would not agree that the flat bench

necessarily " acts as a fulcrum " for the glenohumeral joint, especially since

I have now taken some video images of individuals bench pressing on a

transparent perspex bench. Before commenting further and misinterpreting

what you wrote, may I ask exactly what you mean by a flat bench " acting as a

fulcrum on the glenohumeral joint " , bearing in mind that the freedom of

movement of the scapula depends on bench width and method of bench pressing?

<<Also, I agree that the flat bench removes the scapular stabilizers from the

equation. Every athletic trainer or physical therapist knows you can easily

get a false negative out of a glenohumeral anterior draw test by artificially

stabilizing the scapula with your hand. Here at our School, we have had

players with long thoracic nerve palsies, for which I could only explain as

being caused by over-use of the bench press as a conditioning tool. >>

*** Please elaborate on what you mean by a flat bench " removing the scapular

stabilizers from the equation. " My video analysis actually showed that very

little scapular rotation occurs during a shoulder width bench press, although

far more rotation takes place during inclined bench pressing. Thus, any

scapular stabilisation would appear to be far more static than dynamic.

Moreover, stabilisation of the shoulder during bench pressing also involves

many other muscles, especially the latissimus dorsi, deltoids and pectoralis

major, so I am intrigued to know why the scapular stabilisers are being

singled out for attention in analysing the safety of bench pressing. Anyway,

during heavy bench pressing, it is impossible for a bench to prevent the

scapula from rotating slightly or stabilising the action, if one is wearing a

T-shirt or executing the movement on a bench which is not too soft or wide.

It also needs to be pointed out that efficient powerlifting bench pressing

technique (with loading imposed way back nearer the top of the shoulders and

body powerfully arched) is very different in kinesiological structure from

the typical sort of casual or relatively untutored benching style used by

athletes and fitness enthusiasts which tends to load the shoulders nearer the

bottom of the scapula and eliminates the stretched arching of the body

between soles of feet and contact point behind the shoulders.

Far from being condemned as a potentially harmful bench style of benching

because of its apparently dangerous-looking body arching, the powerlifting

bench press should be regarded as a safer, more effective way of executing

this exercise. I am not stating this as a biased powerlifter, but a

biomechanist and Olympic weightlifter who has come to appreciate the bench

pressing techniques mastered by adventurous powerlifters. Width and surface

of bench can also profoundly influence the execution of the bench press, as

can the style and movement pattern of bench pressing.

Most criticism of the bench press is based upon hypothetical grounds,

incorrect kinesiological modelling of shoulder action during benching and

personal bias than any genuine scientific research. As far as I know, there

is no other entire book on the biomechanics of bench pressing other than that

written by Dr McLaughlin, " Bench Press More Now - Breakthroughs in

Biomechanics and Training Methods. " A study of this detailed text quickly

reveals how inaccurate all of the popular, unscientific analyses of this

exercise are. If anyone can furnish any other scientific references to

support beliefs that the bench press is intrinsically dangerous for the

shoulder, I would be most grateful to receive them.

Dr Mel C Siff

Denver, USA

[Guest guest]

,

Did you even read my post??? When did I say that I wanted studies?

Most of the studies that I've seen that have anything to do with

exercise are fatally flawed due to improper application of

biomechanical principles!!!

I asked if your statements were backed up with science as opposed to

anectdotal evidence such as examples of specific people, and you get

defensive!?! Then you give more examples? If you would have taken

the time to read my other posts, you would have seen that I have

applied some principles of physics to the movements to express how

they may not be beneficial for SOME people. I NEVER said the

movements were " bad " , in FACT, I specifically stated that " I'm not

saying that they're bad " ...I just wanted to know what " evidence "

other than examples you had!

I understand that 24 years in the industry is a long time, and

knowing many competitors during that time that still compete is

impressive! The problem is, what happened to all of the people that

dropped out because they didn't have the genetic predisposition to

handle load in the positions which are required for powerlifting?

Those are the ones I'm worried about. They disappear, you don't see

them again, and possibly left with an injury because their

knee/shoulder/whatever couldn't handle the forces. THOSE ARE THE

PEOPLE THAT I SEE EVERY DAY!!! Someone told them that they could

touch their butt to their heels during a squat before assessing them

properly!!! Someone said it was BETTER to touch the bar to their

chest during a bench press, before assessment! Now I work with them

trying to alleviate pain caused by someone who didn't know that it

COULD be bad for them?!?

You said, and I quote: " As a competing powerlifter, Please realize

the bench and the squat IF PERFORMED with proper FORM are NOT

HAZARDS. " I'm saying that you MUST assess each person individually

before making that statement!!! That is the kind of statement that

gets us into trouble! There are many risk factors we need to

assess, I'm saying we NEED to know those factors!

Again, I'm NOT saying that it is BAD, but when you are at the the

bottom end of a squat (the " hole " ) the resistance is significantly

greater then when you are closer to the upright position, THAT IS A

FACT OF PHYSICS!!! Likewise, when you are at the bottom end of a

bench press (closer to the chest), the resistance is greater than

when you are at the top, again, THIS IS PHYSICS!!! Now if you read

this, you'll notice that I never said it was " BAD " to go deep, I

simply stated that the resistance was greater in a specific spot!!!

Hence, you, as a trainer, must decide for your clients what is

appropriate for your clients!! Once you understand the application

and progression of resistance, the decision becomes easier to see.

I hope this helps. Maybe you confused my posts with someone elses,

but I would suggest reading a persons posts prior to trying to

discredit them. I would expect better research from someone who

calls herself the Phantom

p.s. I was a competitive powerlifter for a number of years!

Joe DeAntonis

Pittsburgh, PA

>

> Ok Joe.

>

> With all due respect to your wish for studies, I have to say this.

>

> A study with a limited number of people in an isolated lab vs the

entire

> sport of competing powerlifting?

>

> Olympic lifters too, such as Shane Hamman, are examples of persons

who also

> have done low and quite heavily weighted squats. We clearly are

still

> walking around AND competing well into " senior " years.

>

> Dr. Mel Siff also used to comment to me that cultures where there

were few

> chairs had far less (almost no) incidence of hip replacement.. Due

to the

> deep squatting posture they used to sit.

>

> In fact, Joe, if you want studies? Check the archives. Mel did

THOROUGH

> discussions of the squat and depth, defenses thereof. I'm sure

Any of the

> moderators can link that in here. There is LITTLE point in my

going back

> over territory so THOROUGHLY discussed by MEL HIMSELF.

>

> As a competing powerlifter, Please realize the bench and the squat

IF

> PERFORMED with proper FORM are NOT HAZARDS.

>

> The danger lies in misinformation, and miscoaching. Ignorance, as

perhaps

> the proper word is, for the person ran across who told him

he'd hurt

> himself, without any basis. The trainer did not even give a

reference of

> another coached individual nor his own reason...i.e. had HE

injured himself,

> that would be more than the scant comment he gave?

>

> The responsibility lies with the individual to evaluate if the

move is right

> for them AND any coaches they hire or have to again, assist those

unable to

> decide for themselves, based on fact, not fiction.

>

> I'm quite frankly tired of defending moves that thousands of

powerlifters do

> on a weekly basis with well, in the case of the squat, over 1/2 a

ton in

> some cases without death or mutiliation.

>

> The bench too is now performed with weights getting closer than I

would have

> expected - again, around 900 pounds now.

>

> The attacks on the deadlift continue by way of CNS overload and

other

> things. " You'll hurt your back " . Unlikely again, vast numbers

of people

> performing the lift safely over careers...

>

> Any excuse not to lift apparently, THAT is more dangerous than the

lifts.

>

> As for practical, in the field examples from people i know?

Competing

> powerlifters of say, 24 years on the platform don't count? I

suspect it's

> better than that sample of " persons who were sedentary recruited

for this

> study " or " people who were possibly lifters but we aren't sure, we

just got

> them signed up for 6 weeks under our eye.. " .

>

> If the bench was going to be a serious anterior capsule hazard, it

would

> show up MORE prevalent in a group performing it on a regular,

weekly, basis

> and with more weight than the general haphazard gym population.

> Powerlifters.

>

> Trainers say lots of things, especially if they aren't good at

coaching a

> move. Few even know what a deadlift, squat or bench really is

supposed to

> look like? it isn't required for certification, is it.

>

> As for my need to quote studies, and from info from " people I

know " are you

> dismissing Mel's comments because I was fortunate enough to know

him? Mel

> didn't believe the bench was dangerous, we even benched together

at his home

> gym. Mel also possessed the deepest squat I've ever witnessed,

sinking to

> his heels from his over 6'2 " height. He tended to brush the

floor. He used

> over his bodyweight frequently and worked in a quick and efficient

manner in

> his training too. Apparently for Mel, brushing the floor

constituted a safe

> squat depth. For me, I train to the IPF requirement of

approximately 2 "

> below parallel. If Mel had no qualms about doing that deep a

squat, I'd

> have to say that was safe for him. Again, I wouldn't expect

everyone to do

> that, nor my below parallel one either. You must evaluate the

needs of the

> individual, the goals, and the health of the person involved. But

for the

> healthy person with no physical reason not to, squat depth to the

floor

> would not be a problem. It's just a problem with people who

BELIEVE it to

> be dangerous... If Mel didn't think it dangerous, why would and

should I?

>

> Had Mel believed the moves of powerlifting to be dangerous, I

doubt he would

> have had a Westside seminar at his gym either. In fact, had Mel

cautioned

> me about any part of my powerlifting, I would have taken HIS

advice quite

> seriously. Why? Mel's expertise was not only academic, but as an

elite and

> capable athlete in his own right.

>

> Studies are good for writing papers, but in the end, it's what

happens in

> the field that really tells the tale. If a move truly did ruin

one's

> anterior shoulder solely by doing it, people would not be doing

it, and

> persisting in training this move over the course of decades, into

their

> master years.

>

> Warmest Regards,

>

> The Phantom

> aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter and yes, I do

bench.

> Denver, Colorado, USA.

>

> It was written:

>

> > ,

> >

> > I'm not going to say that it is " bad " to do deep squats, but

exactly

> > how deep is ok according to your analysis? And with how much

load,

> > does that factor in? Is there any science behind your statements

> > (not necessarily a study, but maybe application of physics), or

just

> > examples from " people you know " ?

> >

> > Back to the bench. The original message from stated that

some

> > trainer said bench pressing causes damage to the anterior

shoulder

> > capsule. From your message I am going to gather that your

> > assumption is that if you do not have a shoulder injury, the

> > anterior capsule is not damaged. If the anterior capsule is

slowly

> > stretched, there may be no immediate pain/injury, but over time,

> > there is a good possibility that the instability created by the

> > damaged capsule could eventually lead to shoulder problems that

show

> > up in a seemingly unrelated event.

> >

> > Although this will neither be proven nor disproven via clinical

> > trials, hopefully it makes you think. Knowing a little about

> > mechanics, physics and physiology makes this a very real issue

to me

> > and should to you. I hope you think about it a little. Again,

I am

> > not stating that the bench is bad, if fact, it is a great

exercise

> > for many people. I am just saying we need to assess people

before

> > making them do stuff. You can read my other post for a little

more

> > on the mechanics of a bench press and pre exercise assessment.

> > Thanks.

> >

> > Joe DeAntonis

> > Pittsburgh, PA

> >