A question on deadlifts

[Guest guest]

I recently read an artcile on the Internet that said that in order to

make gains in the deadlifts, don't do them (just occasionally), but

stick to squats and good mornings. The logic of this was that doing

deadlifts frequently puts too much strain on the spinal erectors and

inhibits recovery. (The example given in the article was two olypmic

weight lifters who beat all the powerlifters in a meet, and they had

never done a deadlift, the author said, in their whole lives /which I

doubt/. But OK, let's say that hey never had performed an actual

deadlift, but wouldn't the initial pull in a clean put the same

stress on the spinal erectors as a deadlift?)

What's you take on this?

Ulf Karlsson

Halmstad, Sweden

[Guest guest]

Ah, this topic is fascinating... and there are clearly two topics here. One

is regarding the difference in OL vs PL deadlift, the other the continuing

theory that NOT training the deadlift will cause yours to prosper.

My understanding of the initial pull in the OL is that it is slower until a

more explosive phase at the knees. PL who have converted to OL comment that

the timing is quite different and they do tend to have to adjust to a more

controlled and less explosive start than the deadlift.

My experience in the conventional style deadlift which is closest to the OL

lifts, is that one should endeavor for speed and explosively break the bar

from the floor, the weights used are generally far higher than those in the

OL lifts as well. Perhaps the OL'ers should have tried PL or perhaps they

were simply exceptional athletes overall. Someone I have talked to live and

shown my strength and speed has also said I had great strength and if I can

get more flexible in my forearms, I could easily compete at the world master

level in OL. Possibly the open level nationally as well.

Strength is translatable and there are documented instances of OL'ers

performing quite deep and quite heavy back squats for example.

I however disagree with the idea that your deadlift prospers without doing

the deadlift on a regular basis. I find the tendency to be a far better

squatter or bencher the prevailing forte of those who say " don't deadlift on

a weekly/regular basis " in their programs. I also suggest here that those

who find they have extreme " gains " in deadlift by focusing on their backs

MAY be improving what was an overall weakness and it merely was more OBVIOUS

in the deadlift than the other PL disciplines. I find my squat does

reasonably well if worked for form every 2 to 4 weeks preparing for a

competition, and I focus on my deadlift for the overall strength gains.

Again, part of my experience is based on a knee that is less than happy at

the IPF depth in recent years, but I still gain appreciably on my deadlift

despite the continuing knee issue.

The deadlift DOES have form requirements and there are lifters whose builds

are FAR more amenable to the deadlift than the other lifts biomechanically.

To focus on the deadlift if that is your strength, tends in my experience to

also improve the quality of the other less favorable lifts, by the sheer

increase in ability and strength the deadlift, as an overall and complete

body lift, can give. I deadlift weekly.

So I would say it's possible these persons never truly did a max DL, or had

other weaknesses that might translate more to their deadlift rather than

their likely better quality of bench or squat. That's my opinion, I'm sure

you will hear many as this is a good topic.

Warmest Regards,

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

<But clearly more a deadlifter than squatter or bencher..>

Denver, Colorado, USA

It was written:

> I recently read an artcile on the Internet that said that in order to

> make gains in the deadlifts, don't do them (just occasionally), but

> stick to squats and good mornings. The logic of this was that doing

> deadlifts frequently puts too much strain on the spinal erectors and

> inhibits recovery. (The example given in the article was two olypmic

> weight lifters who beat all the powerlifters in a meet, and they had

> never done a deadlift, the author said, in their whole lives /which I

> doubt/. But OK, let's say that hey never had performed an actual

> deadlift, but wouldn't the initial pull in a clean put the same

> stress on the spinal erectors as a deadlift?)

>

> What's you take on this?

>

> Ulf Karlsson

> Halmstad, Sweden

>

[Guest guest]

Hello Ulf,

I have seen similar articles by authors advocating a limited amount of actual

deadlifting but doing moves such as those you list. From experience and

biomechanics research, I feel that approach is a mistake for most. The

powerlifting deadlift and the clean pull or good mornings are fundamentally

different in many ways. True, many of the same muscles are worked, but the

neuromuscular activation patterns are different, speed of a competition max is

different, load percents are way off (if you have any experience deadlifting,

your best clean pull is likely less than 70% of your best Deadlift. That load

will not be sufficient to stimulate strength gains in the deadlift.)

I think the good morning is potentially much more hazardous to the spine, owing

to the flexed position many adopt. Louie advocates good mornings and

then goes on to describe suffering a compression fracture of L4-5 doing heavy

good mornings. I think if an athlete wants to be really skilled at a particular

movement, he or she needs to devote a good chunk of training to practicing that

move.

Ernie Roy PT, CSCS

Northfield, NH

A question on deadlifts

I recently read an artcile on the Internet that said that in order to

make gains in the deadlifts, don't do them (just occasionally), but

stick to squats and good mornings. The logic of this was that doing

deadlifts frequently puts too much strain on the spinal erectors and

inhibits recovery. (The example given in the article was two olypmic

weight lifters who beat all the powerlifters in a meet, and they had

never done a deadlift, the author said, in their whole lives /which I

doubt/. But OK, let's say that hey never had performed an actual

deadlift, but wouldn't the initial pull in a clean put the same

stress on the spinal erectors as a deadlift?)

What's you take on this?

Ulf Karlsson

Halmstad, Sweden

[Guest guest]

> I recently read an artcile on the Internet that said that in order to

> make gains in the deadlifts, don't do them (just occasionally), but

> stick to squats and good mornings. The logic of this was that doing

> deadlifts frequently puts too much strain on the spinal erectors and

> inhibits recovery. .....

> But OK, let's say that hey never had performed an actual

> deadlift, but wouldn't the initial pull in a clean put the same

> stress on the spinal erectors as a deadlift?)

>

I'm familiar with the argument you are talking about. When you

say " the same stress on the SE as a deadlift " , I think you are

leaving out the relative magnitude and duration of the loads

involved. Most people deadlift MUCH larger weights than they can

clean, and a heavy deadlift rep is a long, slow slog, compared to

the short pre-pull and the quick springiness of the extension

involved in the cleaning action. The point of the argument is that

regularly doing heavy deadlifts overworks the low back and

consequently makes it difficult to properly work the hips and legs,

because the now worn-out low back becomes the weak link when doing

squats.

I can't say from experience whether this argument is correct, but it

does seem to be agreed upon among many successful lifters I have

encountered.

In a related personal experience, I found that relying on the

parallel-grip deadlift as a substitute for squats for over a year

has left my legs very weak comparatively. Now that I am doing

standard high-bar squats, the loads I need to use are pathetic and

it is very difficult for me to keep my weight towards my heels

during the exercise.

Wilbanks.

ville, FL

[Guest guest]

It's not necessarily the stress on the spinal erectors, although

that is a factor, but rather the stress on the nervous system which

takes an even longer time to recover than the muscular system. A

heavy deadlift is probably the most neurally demanding and draining

exercise their is and can take forever to recover from neurally.

This is why a lot of sprinters avoid it even though it can be a

beneficial exercise for them.

Baggett

AR, USA

> I recently read an artcile on the Internet that said that in order

to

> make gains in the deadlifts, don't do them (just occasionally),

but

> stick to squats and good mornings. The logic of this was that

doing

> deadlifts frequently puts too much strain on the spinal erectors

and

> inhibits recovery. (The example given in the article was two

olypmic

> weight lifters who beat all the powerlifters in a meet, and they

had

> never done a deadlift, the author said, in their whole

lives /which I

> doubt/. But OK, let's say that hey never had performed an actual

> deadlift, but wouldn't the initial pull in a clean put the same

> stress on the spinal erectors as a deadlift?)

>

> What's you take on this?

>

> Ulf Karlsson

> Halmstad, Sweden

[Guest guest]

>> I recently read an artcile on the Internet that said that in order to

make gains in the deadlifts, don't do them (just occasionally), but

stick to squats and good mornings. <<

Ulf,

The article you are talking about is " The No Deadlift Deadlift Program, "

[http://www.strengthcats.com/nodeadlift.htm] The article prescribes good

mornings and Olympic pulls. Good mornings for the development of strength and

Olympic pulls for the development of power. Squats were not one or the exercises

recommended in this program.

The logic of this was that doing deadlifts frequently puts too much strain on

the spinal erectors and inhibits recovery. (The example given in the article was

two olypmic weight lifters who beat all the powerlifters in a meet,

This statement is partially true. Bill Starr, one of the Olympic Lifters

mentioned, broke the American Record in the deadlift with a 666 lb pull. Ernie

Pickett did well but did not " beat " ...out pull the top deadlifter in the meet.

I believe the top deadlifter in that meet was Don Cundy.

>>and they had never done a deadlift, the author said, in their whole lives

/which I doubt/. <<

I am sure they did some deadlift training at times but neither trained the

deadlift in prepration for the meet they attend, the Senior National

Powerlifting Championships.

Let me add my personal experience. In 1998, I dropped the regular deadlift

from my training program. Instead I did rack deadlifts from my sticking point

along with Olympic pulls, using complex training. My deadlift went from 540

to 595. I then was stuck.

I then dropped all deadlifts from my program. I did only good mornings along

with Olympic pulls and plymetrics. My deadlift over the next few meets went

up to 620. I NEVER did a deadlift until I got to the meet.

But OK, let's say that hey never had performed an actual

deadlift, but wouldn't the initial pull in a clean put the same

stress on the spinal erectors as a deadlift?)

The realms of this question are beyond me. Another question I have

encountered is, wouldn't the torque from doing good mornings be just as

devastating on the lower back's recovery? It would appear that in both cases the

" stress on the spinal erectors would be similar. However, the anecdotal evidence

indicates otherwise.

In working with one seasoned lifter, he increased his deadlift 40 lbs using

this training method. He didn't want to completely stop deadlifting, so he

limited it to once a month.

I wrote the article. I have use the program since 1998. In doing so, I have

taken my deadlift from 540 to 620, as a seasoned lifter.

I understand you skepticism. I too had concerns when I first saw the

program. The article I wrote was based on Bill Starr's original program

published in

1967.

Let me conclude with the final thought in the no deadlift article. " We

guarantee it will never work if you never try it. "

Good luck on your lifting.

Kenny Croxdale

Rio Rancho, NM

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

First things first. Here is the site of the no deadlift article for your

review. [http://www.strengthcats.com/nodeadlift.htm]

I can certainly understand you disagreeing with not deadlifting. I was a bit

hesitant prior to using it.

As for my gains or those of others from the program being due to an overall

weakness, that was not my case and is not the case for many others. As is

noted by Dr Tom McLaughlin (PhD in biomechanics/former powerlifter) in the

article, the lower back fatigues and is overly trained easily. Bill Starr

elaborates

this in his review of how the deadlift tends to do just that, overtrain the

lower back more so than other exercises.

While the deadlift " does have form requirements " it is note an extremely

technical lift. Meaning it is not a difficult lift to learn. However, some

time

needs to be spent in learning it.

As you implied, the deadlift does provide some carry over to the squat.

However, so does the deadlift and Olympic pulls the article recommends. Louie

has illustrated the value of heavy good mornings in the development of

the squat.

You state, " So I would say it's possible these persons never truly did a max

DL, or had other weaknesses that might translate more to their deadlift rather

than

their likely better quality of bench or squat. " This is not the case with

myself or many other such as Bill Starr, Ernie Pickett, and Loren Betzer

mentioned in the article.

What this program allows for is recovery of the lower back. If one's lower

back has not fully recovered, it will impact ones squat, bench press, etc

workout.

I am a seasoned powerlifter who has always had a really good deadlift. As I

stated above I had reservations about the program. I dropped the regular

deadlift and replaces it with rack deadlifts from the knees (my sticking point).

Along with rack deadlifts I did Olympic pulls. That took my deadlift from

540 to 595. In training rack deadlifts, I found my lower back recover still a

problem.

I then completely dropped the deadlift. I replaced it with good mornings. I

continued doing Olympic pulls and added plyometrics to the equation. My

deadlift then went from 595 to 620.

Another seasoned powerlifter (Phil ), decided to try the program.

However, Phil was skeptical as you and I. Phil continued to deadlift. He

deadlifted once a month. His deadlift went up 30 lbs.

One of the problems most athletes have it being overly ambitious. They tend

to overtrain at times, especially with the deadlift. As McLaughlin and Betzer

noted, the lower back is one area that is easily overtrained.

I wrote the no deadlift article based on Bill Starr's original no deadlift

program. What I did was basically update it. I went into information how to

develop more power in the pull. The article examined Dr Garhammer's

research on power outputs comparison of Olympic pulls vs squats/deadlifts.

What I have found are those who judge the program without having ever tried

it. To this I would add the statement that was concluded a co-written article

of mine on complex training. " We guarantee it will never work, if you never

try it. "

Another group are those who try the program but don't know what they are

doing. Thus, when the program does not work, they blame the program. It hard

to

get down the road in a vehicle when you don't know how to drive it

(metaphorically speaking).

After increasing my deadlift 595 lbs to 620 lbs was exasperating. After

pulling 595 lbs, I implemented a completely new training program. My deadlift

crashed from 595 lbs to 550 lbs for the next year. However, I believed my

training theories were correct

The end result was my deadlift went from 595 lbs to 620 lbs. The no deadlift

program will work if you know what you are doing and give it time.

Good luck on you lifting.

Kenny Croxdale, CSCS

Rio Rancho, NM

[Guest guest]

Ernie Roy!

You are definitely one of my favorite people and a fountain of information.

However, I have to disagree with you on this. Here is the no deadlift article

[http://www.strengthcats.com/nodeadlift.htm]

While I can certainly understand your skepticism (as well as others)

regarding the program, for the various reasons you mentined, the program works.

The

no deadlift article I wrote is based on Bill Starr's old program. I simply

updated it.

As I mentioned in my reply to , my deadlift went from 540 to 620 with

this program. Bill Starr pulled an American Record using this program. A local

seasoned lifter, :Phil , added 30 lbs to his deadlift. Phil did opt to

deadlift once a month to keep a feel for the lift.

Loren Betzer's " To Deadlift More, Don't Deadift " article (quoted in my

article) touches on the value of increasing he deadlift by substituting good

morning

in their place. Betzer added 40 lbs in 5 months in doing so. The anecdotal

data states the program does work.

I have some understanding of the risk involved with good mornings. I concede

that your knowledge in this area supersedes mine. But there is also a value

for those who employ good mornings correctly.

Kenny Croxdale CSCS

Rio Rancho, NM

[Guest guest]

It's really absurd to claim that the two Olympic lifters never deadlifted,

the first pull of the snatch and the clean is more or less a deadlift.

I think there is some merit to reducing the volume of deadlifts when a high

volume of squats and good mornings are being performed, but not because the

deadlift puts too much strain on the spinal erectors, all these exercises

strain the spinal erectors.

Dahms

Boston, USA

>I recently read an artcile on the Internet that said that in order to

>make gains in the deadlifts, don't do them (just occasionally), but

>stick to squats and good mornings. The logic of this was that doing

>deadlifts frequently puts too much strain on the spinal erectors and

>inhibits recovery. (The example given in the article was two olypmic

>weight lifters who beat all the powerlifters in a meet, and they had

>never done a deadlift, the author said, in their whole lives /which I

>doubt/. But OK, let's say that hey never had performed an actual

>deadlift, but wouldn't the initial pull in a clean put the same

>stress on the spinal erectors as a deadlift?)

>

>What's you take on this?

>

>Ulf Karlsson

>Halmstad, Sweden

[Guest guest]

If your lower back was truly overtrained, this program contains a great deal of

specifically heavy work to your lower back but longer recovery? What's really

unique about that, heck pull from the floor every 10 days, or 9, or whatever

suits you personally? (I pull every 7 generally, without overtraining my back.)

Why would this rack pull and OL combo be less " damaging " than a full deadlift?

A max rep good morning would seem to be more of a stress and potential for

overtaining than the deadlift from the floor? Potentially a bad rep with a rack

pull can be more damaging, as you may get entirely out of the groove more easily

than a full rep from the floor! (Again, I think Mr Hobman can attest to that?)

How long had it been since you tried something different, prior to the 2

programs you list there? Ok so you show you had a gain previously doing OL

pulls and rack pulls which made your back " tired " , that was greater than this

" no deadlift " program's output, 50 vs 25? You got more marked improvement in 1

program from challenging your back more? Perhaps alter the OTHER program you

were doing with the OL and rack pulls BEFORE this " no deadlift program " to add

in more rest and you will do better? With respect, a truly elite and maxed out

lifter is not likely to get 2 such programs with gains back to back? heck that

one program that made you TIRED got you 10%! Personally I'd repeat THAT one!

not the second " no deadlift " one... Adjust the timing on the first program and

perhaps that one would serve you better?

I've seen some truly maxed out elite deadlifters gain 15 lbs from moving hand

position slightly... and THAT is form! NOT " prevention of lower back

overtraining " or other well, " no deadlift " programs..! Form is where you can

gain at times when all else is TRULY maxed out.

With respect, you got results of gain possibly still due to a correction of your

weak spot. You did rack pulls, right? those are partial deadlifts. So you

didn't " not deadlift " for the program. Especially if these were " overloads "

over what you can pull from the floor. If we called it a 'rack deadlift' would

this then make it seem less attractive?

Doing deadlift variations rather than your full deadlift from the floor is NOT a

" no deadlift " program. Any more than someone doing 10,000 bench variations is

NOT benching! Board benches or lockouts are still benches..

I don't plan to quit deadlifting as I do now, I stand with others who say " doing

the powerlifts is the best training for them " . I think one of the lifters who

said that just might be Eddy Coan? (I also agree a squat requires a walkout and

rerack, not the use of a monolift but hey, that's another topic..)

Deadlifting each week also hones my form, which is unique to me apparently (at

least from what I've seen). You maintain the deadlift has no form, I say it

does. It is also the one of the three powerlifts with the least aid from

equipment. I don't believe my form as it is now would exist without the many

reps it took to realize what worked best for my build!

I have yet to see anyone breaking Lamar's records using a true no deadlift

program....

Did you look at the programs published by those who have recognized success in

the deadlift? They say deadlift weekly or even TWICE a week. I cited two

examples, Lamar Gant and Kuc. What were their best lifts? Perhaps you see

an improvement in your lifts for one cycle on this program, but were you already

the best deadlifter you could be? anyone who has gained 75 lbs on their max pull

in 2 programs is not with all respect, truly maxed out? I will believe this " no

deadlift " program holds some merit for the lifter who has already a powerful

deadlift IF I see several truly world class maxed out before athletes prosper

using it! As for the Westsiders, I believe even Mr. has written

articles suggesting the deadlift HAS form and this should actually be worked.

Something about speed deadlifts? I.E. FORM work requiring you dl from the

floor...

I still maintain what I have said before, no program works for all. Lifters

modify programs or form to their own needs, and this is what one needs to truly

succeed! If you continue to see at least 30 lbs a cycle on this program, it

works for you. But I sincerely doubt it's the right answer for me. I'd be far

more likely to listen to Lamar Gant...

By the way, although I am a 43 yo woman lifter, I now do more volume than I used

to. If deadlifting from the floor coupled with rack pulls and shrugs, hypers,

etc was going to overtrain my back, I think it should have occurred YEARS ago?

The answer for some lifters might be the intentional overload AND continuing

challenge to the lower back... Upon reading of Lamar and 's programs, that

would perhaps be the case? If the lower back truly " fatigues easily " why

doesn't mine? I'm doing ballistic loaded hypers post deadlift... I refuse to

believe I'm an alien! I also know a gal who is older than I am and doing even

more, both OL full lifts and deadlifting heavy. HECK reading Lamar's makes my

BRAIN tired... <grin>

If all that heavy pulling overloaded their backs, why did Lamar and and

others pull as well as they did? They also did well in the other two events...

Overtraining the lower back would also cripple one's squat and bench.

Especially anyone using say, an arching bench style? or with a tendency to back

up a squat? Again, the lower back " fatiguing easily " would certainly ruin your

day in a full meet? Has anyone suggested people stop arching benches or backing

up squats? Sheesh! What about the fatigue from putting on a tight bench shirt?

<heck this whole topic just makes me want to deadlift MORE!>

One of these days I'm gonna do an entire TRULY NO bench, NO squat, ONLY deadlift

program over here and test my theory that the DL is getting one helluva bad rap.

What will people say then if THAT works? Why should people want to NOT deadlift

and yet work the " form " of the bench and squat so much? <grin> Focusing on what

you are good at or bad at, these are ways we improve as competing athletes.

It's as simple as that. Avoid the full deadlift and developing your final best

form if you wish, but you will never be GREAT at it!

Good luck in your lifting,

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

Hi ,

First things first. Here is the site of the no deadlift article for your

review. [http://www.strengthcats.com/nodeadlift.htm]

I can certainly understand you disagreeing with not deadlifting. I was a bit

hesitant prior to using it.

As for my gains or those of others from the program being due to an overall

weakness, that was not my case and is not the case for many others. As is noted

by Dr Tom McLaughlin (PhD in biomechanics/former powerlifter) in the article,

the lower back fatigues and is overly trained easily. Bill Starr elaborates

this in his review of how the deadlift tends to do just that, overtrain the

lower back more so than other exercises.

While the deadlift " does have form requirements " it is note an extremely

technical lift. Meaning it is not a difficult lift to learn. However, some

time needs to be spent in learning it.

As you implied, the deadlift does provide some carry over to the squat.

However, so does the deadlift and Olympic pulls the article recommends. Louie

has illustrated the value of heavy good mornings in the development of

the squat.

You state, " So I would say it's possible these persons never truly did a max

DL, or had other weaknesses that might translate more to their deadlift rather

than

their likely better quality of bench or squat. " This is not the case with

myself or many other such as Bill Starr, Ernie Pickett, and Loren Betzer

mentioned in the article.

What this program allows for is recovery of the lower back. If one's lower

back has not fully recovered, it will impact ones squat, bench press, etc

workout.

I am a seasoned powerlifter who has always had a really good deadlift. As I

stated above I had reservations about the program. I dropped the regular

deadlift and replaces it with rack deadlifts from the knees (my sticking point).

Along with rack deadlifts I did Olympic pulls. That took my deadlift from 540

to 595. In training rack deadlifts, I found my lower back recover still a

problem.

I then completely dropped the deadlift. I replaced it with good mornings. I

continued doing Olympic pulls and added plyometrics to the equation. My

deadlift then went from 595 to 620.

Another seasoned powerlifter (Phil ), decided to try the program.

However, Phil was skeptical as you and I. Phil continued to deadlift. He

deadlifted once a month. His deadlift went up 30 lbs.

One of the problems most athletes have it being overly ambitious. They tend

to overtrain at times, especially with the deadlift. As McLaughlin and Betzer

noted, the lower back is one area that is easily overtrained.

I wrote the no deadlift article based on Bill Starr's original no deadlift

program. What I did was basically update it. I went into information how to

develop more power in the pull. The article examined Dr Garhammer's

research on power outputs comparison of Olympic pulls vs squats/deadlifts.

What I have found are those who judge the program without having ever tried

it. To this I would add the statement that was concluded a co-written article

of mine on complex training. " We guarantee it will never work, if you never try

it. "

Another group are those who try the program but don't know what they are

doing. Thus, when the program does not work, they blame the program. It hard

to get down the road in a vehicle when you don't know how to drive it

(metaphorically speaking).

After increasing my deadlift 595 lbs to 620 lbs was exasperating. After

pulling 595 lbs, I implemented a completely new training program. My deadlift

crashed from 595 lbs to 550 lbs for the next year. However, I believed my

training theories were correct

The end result was my deadlift went from 595 lbs to 620 lbs. The no deadlift

program will work if you know what you are doing and give it time.

Good luck on you lifting.

Kenny Croxdale, CSCS

Rio Rancho, NM

[Guest guest]

Kenny,

Does this mean that if you had never deadlifted beyond the point where

your technique was acceptable you may have made more progress?

If so, and this non-deadlifting programme is universal(a big if, I

agree), at what point does doing deads become a negative?

Manchester UK

> >> I recently read an artcile on the Internet that said that in

order to

> make gains in the deadlifts, don't do them (just occasionally), but

> stick to squats and good mornings. <<

>

> Ulf,

>

> The article you are talking about is " The No Deadlift Deadlift

Program, "

> [http://www.strengthcats.com/nodeadlift.htm] The article prescribes

good

> mornings and Olympic pulls. Good mornings for the development of

strength and

> Olympic pulls for the development of power. Squats were not one or

the exercises recommended in this program.

>

> The logic of this was that doing deadlifts frequently puts too much

strain on the spinal erectors and inhibits recovery. (The example

given in the article was two olypmic weight lifters who beat all the

powerlifters in a meet,

>

> This statement is partially true. Bill Starr, one of the Olympic

Lifters

> mentioned, broke the American Record in the deadlift with a 666 lb

pull. Ernie

> Pickett did well but did not " beat " ...out pull the top deadlifter in

the meet.

> I believe the top deadlifter in that meet was Don Cundy.

>

> >>and they had never done a deadlift, the author said, in their

whole lives /which I doubt/. <<

>

> I am sure they did some deadlift training at times but neither

trained the

> deadlift in prepration for the meet they attend, the Senior National

> Powerlifting Championships.

>

> Let me add my personal experience. In 1998, I dropped the regular

deadlift

> from my training program. Instead I did rack deadlifts from my

sticking point

> along with Olympic pulls, using complex training. My deadlift went

from 540

> to 595. I then was stuck.

>

> I then dropped all deadlifts from my program. I did only good

mornings along

> with Olympic pulls and plymetrics. My deadlift over the next few

meets went

> up to 620. I NEVER did a deadlift until I got to the meet.

>

> But OK, let's say that hey never had performed an actual

> deadlift, but wouldn't the initial pull in a clean put the same

> stress on the spinal erectors as a deadlift?)

>

> The realms of this question are beyond me. Another question I have

> encountered is, wouldn't the torque from doing good mornings be just

as devastating on the lower back's recovery? It would appear that in

both cases the " stress on the spinal erectors would be similar.

However, the anecdotal evidence indicates otherwise.

>

> In working with one seasoned lifter, he increased his deadlift 40

lbs using

> this training method. He didn't want to completely stop deadlifting,

so he

> limited it to once a month.

>

> I wrote the article. I have use the program since 1998. In doing so,

I have

> taken my deadlift from 540 to 620, as a seasoned lifter.

>

> I understand you skepticism. I too had concerns when I first saw the

> program. The article I wrote was based on Bill Starr's original

program published in

> 1967.

>

> Let me conclude with the final thought in the no deadlift article. " We

> guarantee it will never work if you never try it. "

>

> Good luck on your lifting.

>

> Kenny Croxdale

> Rio Rancho, NM

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

One method that would work is as you indicated, take longer between deadlift

sessions (10 days as opposed to 7 days). In discussing deadlifting with a

former world record holder in the deadlift back in the 1980s, Chip McCain, he

basically did just that. I used that method in the past to some extent.

In regard to rack deadlifts, I found them to overtrain the lower back just as

much as a regular deadlift. Deadlifting is deadlifting in this case.

It would appear that good mornings would place as much stress on the lower

back as deadlifting. However, this is not the case. In the article, Betzer,

, and Starr tell you this. I found it to be true as well.

As for a bad rep rack pulls being more damaging that a " regular deadlift. " A

" bad rep " is a " bad rep, " be it in the rack or from the floor.

, I lifted in my first meet in 1969. I have been lifting ever since and

have tried about every program there is. I use a variety of good morning,

Olympic pulls, and plyometric training in my program. It is constantly

changing. However, the movements I listed above are the core of my deadlift

program.

The emphasis of this program (did you read the article)? is on the

development of strength and power. Although powerlifting is a test of strength,

power

will enable one to blow through one's sticking point. Thus, the implementation

of Olympic pulls. As the article notes, the power output can be over 4 times

greater than the deadlift.

, at one point in the program I did rack deadlifts as you mentioned.

However, I abandon them for the same reason as the regular deadlift. They

overtrain the lower back. As I stated, I replaced them with good mornings. I

NEVER deadlift prior to a meet and have go on to pull 620 lbs.

If you read the article will see that Starr, Pickett, and Betzer increased

their deadlift by not deadlifting. As Betzer noted, his deadlift went up 40 lbs

in 5 months by NOT deadlifting. You may have missed part of this.

In regard to, " I don't plan to quit deadlifting as I do now... " I understand

you feeling on this. As I have continually stated, it is a hard concept to

accept. I had much the same problem as you do. With that said, let me also

state that until you have tried the program you can't understand it. , I

promise you that the no deadlift program will never work if you never try it.

, I didn't say the deadlift has no form, I said it requires very little

technique.

,.I had a respectable deadlift for my age/weight class to begin with.

With the no deadlift program it continued to improve. Starr broke an American

Record with the no deadlift program. Pickett pulled great poundage at the

meet same meet. Betzer added 40 lbs to his deadlift in 5 months. A local

season

lifter, Phil , added 30 lbs to his deadlift.

Since no world record holder in the deadlift has tried the program, we are

assured that the program has never worked for them. Again, it doesn't work if

you don't try it.

does implement " speed deadlifts " into his program. This is an

excellent method of working technique and developing some speed. However, the

deadlift is not a speed movement. Dr Garhammer's research show that even

when

training poundage is dropped in the deadlift, the deadlift is only capable of

producing half of the power output of an Olympic pull.

One needs to use the right tool for the right job. In the development of

power, Olympic pulls are the right tool. A deadlift with lower loads would work

to some extent.

, you will continue to doubt the no deadlift program will work for you

until you try it. You don't have to use it exclusively. You may opt as Phil

did. Phil would use the program for three weeks and then deadlift on

the fourth week to check his progress.

One of the emphasis's of this program is in the development of power. If you

deadlift or don't deadlift, the Olympic pulls should be a part of one's

program. That is one of the things stressed in the article.

You mentioned doing ballistic hypers, so you are doing some power/speed

movement.

While Gant and Kuc had great deadlifts, perhaps their deadlift could have

been a bit better if they had used some type of no deadlift training approach.

As for heavy walks with for the squat, they do fatigue my lower back. While

I have a strong back it is sensitive to loading. My best squat is 560 lbs.

and the most I put on my back prior to doing that was 340 lbs.

The squat and bench press are a bit more technical lifts that the deadlift.

As you mentioned, speed deadlifts would be a good alternative to heavy

deadlifts. That is what does with squats and the bench, lighter

loads for speed and technique.

Dr Tom McLaughlin's book (Bench Press More Now) questions the use of

continuously executing heavy a bench press in training (squat and deadlift are

inferred as well). squat and bench program revolve around auxiliary

exercises in the development of strength for these lifts.

I have found complex training of the squat and bench to work

[http://www.strengthcats.com/complextraining.htm] Complex training is the

combination of

strength, power and speed movement in the same program, a superset approach.

, in closing let me once more state that I understand your skepticism of

this program. I view it as a form of insanity the first time I saw it. I

think new ideas (although this one has been around since 1968) should be

questioned.

The second part is to test drive it. Unless you do that, you can only

speculate as to how the program might work.

The only analogy the I can think of right now it that it's like sex. Unless

you have tried it, it's hard to fully comprehend it. I am sure there is a

better analogy but this is the one that came to mind.

Let me also assure you that I am a really nice guy...lol...and I do have a

brain.

Later,

Kenny Croxdale, CSCS

Rio Rancho, NM

[Guest guest]

A point that I have noticed in some of these mails

that I would like to comment on: People training

their sticking point in the rack. A frequent comment

" I get stuck at the top therefore I am training the

finish in the rack " .

In my coaching experience most people who get stuck at

the top need to train the bottom of the lift - it is

because they have lost the 'shoulders back' and back

fairly straight set that sets them up for a weak

finish. Watching some videos of the lift will help.

When you watch the opener DL and then compare it to

their last attempt - if the body has moved higher in

the last attempt before the bar moves off the floor

then you are a candidate for some off the floor

training! When comparing video footage of a lot of

lifters who struggle to finish you will clearly see

the difference in body position as the bar comes off

the floor (when comparing their easy attempts to heavy

ones).

Obviously just training normal deadlifts is key but

the use of heavy high pulls is a great assistance.

Even if the pull is just a few inches higher than your

deadlift finish, they force you into a rigid position

at take off. Don't kill the reps as you need to do

this with close to DL weights. Perhaps use this this

form as you warm up to your heavy deadlift sets ie all

but your final DL set will be a high pull.

Here is a suggested combo set pyramid that I have

used:

Bent over rows 60kg x 12 reps

100kg x10

140kg x 8

180kg x 3

210kg x 5 (cheats obviously)

High pulls 225kg x 5

Deadlifts 245kg x 5

All done very explosively.

Every second week finish with 285kg x 5 above knee

lockouts in the rack.

By combining the different exercises in the above way

it allows you to minimise warm-ups and total training

time.

The above allowed me a 330kg meet deadlift.

Regards,

Terence Delaney

Johannesburg

South Africa

[Guest guest]

,

I did deadlifts to the point of failure in many training sessions in the

past. I even did what a , former powerlifter and coach, called

" hospital reps, " where the only thing that mattered was locking the deadlift

out.

So, I definitely went " beyond the point where my technique was acceptable " at

times.

As for " at what point does doing deads become a negative? " This example of

Chip McCain may help.

McCain was one of the great dealifters of the 1980s. He pulled 362.5 kg at

98 kg body weight (799 lbs at 198 lbs).

McCain would often question a lifter on how his lower back felt. Did it feel

" charred " (burnt out). McCain trained his deadlift (lower back) according to

how it felt.

McCain alternated heavy deadlift weeks with light deadlift weeks. In

examining his program once, I commented that his light weeks were inconsistent.

The

weight he used on his light week varied drastically.

McCain replied that he make his light week light. If it felt heavy, it was

heavy. McCain went by the feel of it.

In going over his heavy training weeks, I noted that he had take 50 lb jumps

every other week. However, in his last week, he jumped the weight up 75 lbs,

pulling 800 lbs for a double. I found this confusing and ask him why. McCain

replied, " Because I knew I could. "

Although McCain had a plan, he also went by how he felt that day. McCain was

one of the most introspective lifters I have ever met. Great athletes seem

to have this awareness.

The point is to be aware of how your lower back is doing. Don't push it into

the " charred " overtrained area. The problem is trying to walk the line

between pushing yourself enough to make progress and going beyond to the point

of

overtraining or injury. Training is as much an art as it is a science.

Kenny Croxdale

Rio Rancho, NM

[Guest guest]

And that's exactly why I challenge a no deadlift program. If a person is

afraid to modify a program or sensibly reach as their body demands, they

haven't done enough lifting yet. It's not the years you have done the

sport, it's what you've done with those years?

No world record holder has progressed using the " no deadlift " . If a lifter

who is truly maxed out by way of the WORLD level does it, and progressed,

THEN I will believe it will benefit me. OR I'll give it a trial run between

meets!

Why am I so stubborn? I'm the now former IPF world master record holder

myself. God willing, I will make a run at recovering my record.

You have lifted since 1969, I respect this. I started in November 1996. I

also went from a never pulled before 135 for reps to a locked out 350 3rd

pull in my first meet. 2 months after I picked up that 135. I'm a woman.

I was 36 years of age at the time too. It was love at first DL.... some

people feel this way about the bench or squat, I hear them too!

I'm now 43 and I am still gaining, in the 90 kg class, despite a nagging

knee injury and I am lifetime drug free. I went DOWN 30 pounds in body

weight to that 90 kg weight class and yet gained in my deadlift. At 90 kg

master, I have a 210 kg PR.

You keep sounding like you defend your choice of program. Did you read the

reasoning I gave you?

IF a TOTALLY maxed out person like Lamar Gant or Kuc recommended this,

I'd try it. Why? because where I am now, I even have trouble finding

programs that can assist me to regain my world record. Why? because I am in

that odd position of a conventional lifter where MOST women are sumo

especially at the higher bodyweights, and at a point in my career where it

is difficult to GAIN on a clearly PR lift. I'm comparing lifting programs

with men here, few women do 500 pounds drug tested, and that's my goal?

Most seem to be using a sumo pull too? This does make a difference in

training, again FORM does matter!

It is the challenge to a program in my opinion to take a lifter who is at

the top of their game and progress them to an extent where you can say it is

the PROGRAM that has done so. That is the failure of many programs being

sold.

Hard work in the DL can make your back tired. Mine has been very tired at

times. Yet I have taken that step further to try what has been NOT done by

those 20 years my junior in some cases.

I wish you the best in your lifting, but it is quite clear we will not see

eye to eye on this. I refuse to accept the program of someone saying I

should not deadlift, Lamar Gant, Kuc, and others clearly ignored this

advice and they have shown me I need to KEEP DEADLIFTING.

The logic to eschue the training of the deadlift is mystifying. One would

NOT suggest an OL'er NOT train the full snatch or the clean move? Yet for

some perverse reason, people in PL still tend to look at the deadlift as a

threat.

I still maintain it's due to the HARD WORK involved in building a top notch

deadlift.

At the full meet, you're fresh in the squat. You're warmed up in the bench.

Both events have a great deal of help from equipment.

The deadlift still stands as a true test of strength. Oh sure, you can put

on a tight suit. You can belt yourself in.

But in the end, your endurance and your will to succeed against gravity has

only your heart to get the bar off the floor. You can see the heart in a

deadlift when someone can't see the referee, and can only HEAR the crowd

willing them to lockout...

That's the moment I lift and live for, Kenny. If you've been there, you

know what I'm talking about....the REASON for that verbal DOWN signal from

the referee...

Oh and Kenny? Let's at least have the courtesy that at my advanced age of

43 and having been previously married, I'm no virgin and do not require some

imagining on the topic of sex? As IPF World master champion twice, and now

a 10 time national champion in the USA, 9 of them USAPL titles in the open

and master, let's also presume I'm no virgin of the platform? sigh.... I've

been to war...

The deadlift is, however, clearly ONE of my passions!

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

At this moment, benching and deadlifting only, due to rehab

Denver, Colorado, USA

It was written:

> Hi ,

>

> One method that would work is as you indicated, take longer between deadlift

> sessions (10 days as opposed to 7 days). In discussing deadlifting with a

> former world record holder in the deadlift back in the 1980s, Chip McCain, he

> basically did just that. I used that method in the past to some extent.

>

> In regard to rack deadlifts, I found them to overtrain the lower back just as

> much as a regular deadlift. Deadlifting is deadlifting in this case.

>

> It would appear that good mornings would place as much stress on the lower

> back as deadlifting. However, this is not the case. In the article, Betzer,

> , and Starr tell you this. I found it to be true as well.

>

> As for a bad rep rack pulls being more damaging that a " regular deadlift. " A

> " bad rep " is a " bad rep, " be it in the rack or from the floor.

>

> , I lifted in my first meet in 1969. I have been lifting ever since and

> have tried about every program there is. I use a variety of good morning,

> Olympic pulls, and plyometric training in my program. It is constantly

> changing. However, the movements I listed above are the core of my deadlift

program.

>

>

> The emphasis of this program (did you read the article)? is on the

> development of strength and power. Although powerlifting is a test of

strength, power

> will enable one to blow through one's sticking point. Thus, the

implementation

> of Olympic pulls. As the article notes, the power output can be over 4 times

> greater than the deadlift.

>

> , at one point in the program I did rack deadlifts as you mentioned.

> However, I abandon them for the same reason as the regular deadlift. They

> overtrain the lower back. As I stated, I replaced them with good mornings. I

> NEVER deadlift prior to a meet and have go on to pull 620 lbs.

>

> If you read the article will see that Starr, Pickett, and Betzer increased

> their deadlift by not deadlifting. As Betzer noted, his deadlift went up 40

lbs

> in 5 months by NOT deadlifting. You may have missed part of this.

>

> In regard to, " I don't plan to quit deadlifting as I do now... " I understand

> you feeling on this. As I have continually stated, it is a hard concept to

> accept. I had much the same problem as you do. With that said, let me also

> state that until you have tried the program you can't understand it. , I

> promise you that the no deadlift program will never work if you never try it.

>

>

> , I didn't say the deadlift has no form, I said it requires very little

> technique.

>

> ,.I had a respectable deadlift for my age/weight class to begin with.

> With the no deadlift program it continued to improve. Starr broke an American

> Record with the no deadlift program. Pickett pulled great poundage at the

> meet same meet. Betzer added 40 lbs to his deadlift in 5 months. A local

season

> lifter, Phil , added 30 lbs to his deadlift.

>

> Since no world record holder in the deadlift has tried the program, we are

> assured that the program has never worked for them. Again, it doesn't work if

> you don't try it.

>

> does implement " speed deadlifts " into his program. This is an

> excellent method of working technique and developing some speed. However, the

> deadlift is not a speed movement. Dr Garhammer's research show that even

when

> training poundage is dropped in the deadlift, the deadlift is only capable of

> producing half of the power output of an Olympic pull.

>

> One needs to use the right tool for the right job. In the development of

> power, Olympic pulls are the right tool. A deadlift with lower loads would

work

> to some extent.

>

> , you will continue to doubt the no deadlift program will work for you

> until you try it. You don't have to use it exclusively. You may opt as Phil

> did. Phil would use the program for three weeks and then deadlift on

> the fourth week to check his progress.

>

> One of the emphasis's of this program is in the development of power. If you

> deadlift or don't deadlift, the Olympic pulls should be a part of one's

> program. That is one of the things stressed in the article.

>

> You mentioned doing ballistic hypers, so you are doing some power/speed

> movement.

>

> While Gant and Kuc had great deadlifts, perhaps their deadlift could have

> been a bit better if they had used some type of no deadlift training approach.

>

>

> As for heavy walks with for the squat, they do fatigue my lower back. While

> I have a strong back it is sensitive to loading. My best squat is 560 lbs.

> and the most I put on my back prior to doing that was 340 lbs.

>

> The squat and bench press are a bit more technical lifts that the deadlift.

> As you mentioned, speed deadlifts would be a good alternative to heavy

> deadlifts. That is what does with squats and the bench, lighter

> loads for speed and technique.

>

> Dr Tom McLaughlin's book (Bench Press More Now) questions the use of

> continuously executing heavy a bench press in training (squat and deadlift are

> inferred as well). squat and bench program revolve around auxiliary

> exercises in the development of strength for these lifts.

>

> I have found complex training of the squat and bench to work

> [http://www.strengthcats.com/complextraining.htm] Complex training is the

combination of

> strength, power and speed movement in the same program, a superset approach.

>

> , in closing let me once more state that I understand your skepticism of

> this program. I view it as a form of insanity the first time I saw it. I

> think new ideas (although this one has been around since 1968) should be

> questioned.

>

> The second part is to test drive it. Unless you do that, you can only

> speculate as to how the program might work.

>

> The only analogy the I can think of right now it that it's like sex. Unless

> you have tried it, it's hard to fully comprehend it. I am sure there is a

> better analogy but this is the one that came to mind.

>

> Let me also assure you that I am a really nice guy...lol...and I do have a

> brain.

[Guest guest]

,

The bottom line is unless you try the program, you will never know for sure.

One of the few guarantees in life.

Well, I think we have now killed this subject...lol.

See you later,

Kenny Croxdale, CSCS

Rio Rancho, NM