Barbell Squat and Knee Position...

January 24, 2004

I found the following article in the current Journal of Strength and

Conditioning Research most enlightening:

Effect of knee position on hip and knee torques during the barbell

squat.

Fry AC, JC, Schilling BK.

Human Performance Laboratories, The University of Memphis, Memphis,

Tennessee 38152, USA. afry@...

J Strength Cond Res. 2003 Nov; 17(4): 629-33.

It basically found that while keeping shin vertical lowers knee

forces, it transfers them (maybe inappropriately so) to the hip and

low-back. Therefore it would seem that rather than slavishly

adhering to the idea of never letting the knees track forward of the

toes, strength professionals and coaches need to help people

squatting (or lunging) improve all links of the chain so that the

athletes can then develop the style that is most successful for their

individual bodies.

With respect to the lunge (for the person with the female volleyball

players), you need to evaluate them to see if they have the proper

motor pattern that activates the proper muscles to avoid knee pain.

Often a toe-dominant, forward moving landing with insufficient glute

activation will lead to knee pain. I have found with teaching

personal training clients to squat and lunge, cuing them to use the

appropriate muscle patterns almost totally eliminates knee pain.

I hope this gives some insight to folks on squat and lunge kinematics.

Merrick, M.A.

NSCA CSCS/CPT

ACSM HFI

Bellevue, NE

Practicing fitness professional and competing powerlifter

January 25, 2004

If an athlete is performing a FULL squat, the only

course for the knees to take is forward that of the

toes. Or, at the very least, just overtop the toes.

It's almost physiologically impossible to do a FULL,

Olympic-style squat and not have the knees go forward

(or again, overtop) the toes; the human body just

won't accomodate this. For individuals performing

" half " squats or " quarter " squats this is possible,

but not complete full squats.

I fail to understand why this issue keeps getting beat

around? To me it's just sheer common sense. The human

body, when performing the full squatting motion, has

to behave in this manner, otherwise one would fall

backwards on their rump trying to maintain a

perpendicular shin alignment. I've been full squatting

for ~24 hrs. and have never suffered any debilitating

knee injury(s) as a result. Yes, I have experienced

knee pain from time to time, but this is also in

combination with my regular Olympic-style training

with occasional plyometrics.

McInnes

Wilmington, DE

--- samuel9888 wrote:

> I found the following article in the current Journal

> of Strength and

> Conditioning Research most enlightening:

>

> Effect of knee position on hip and knee torques

> during the barbell

> squat.

>

> Fry AC, JC, Schilling BK.

>

> Human Performance Laboratories, The University of

> Memphis, Memphis,

> Tennessee 38152, USA. afry@...

> J Strength Cond Res. 2003 Nov; 17(4): 629-33.

>

> It basically found that while keeping shin vertical

> lowers knee

> forces, it transfers them (maybe inappropriately so)

> to the hip and

> low-back. Therefore it would seem that rather than

> slavishly

> adhering to the idea of never letting the knees

> track forward of the

> toes, strength professionals and coaches need to

> help people

> squatting (or lunging) improve all links of the

> chain so that the

> athletes can then develop the style that is most

> successful for their

> individual bodies.

>

> With respect to the lunge (for the person with the

> female volleyball

> players), you need to evaluate them to see if they

> have the proper

> motor pattern that activates the proper muscles to

> avoid knee pain.

> Often a toe-dominant, forward moving landing with

> insufficient glute

> activation will lead to knee pain. I have found

> with teaching

> personal training clients to squat and lunge, cuing

> them to use the

> appropriate muscle patterns almost totally

> eliminates knee pain.

>

> I hope this gives some insight to folks on squat and

> lunge kinematics.

>

> Merrick, M.A.

> NSCA CSCS/CPT

> ACSM HFI

> Bellevue, NE

> Practicing fitness professional and competing

> powerlifter

January 26, 2004

,

It couldn't agree more with what you said. Everyone should remember that

when force leaves one are it goes to another. Everyone should also remember

what the original purpose of weight training is in the first place. To

expose the body to higher forces to better prepare them for the forces

imposed upon them through their sport. As a note, the forces on the patella

tendon during a lateral cut (for a 200lbs person from a 9m/sec forward

speed) are at least 4 times greater than those of a 200 lbs person doing a

250 pound hack squat with the knee 1 meter past the toe (note that it is

impossible to achieve that distance for the average shin is only .6 meters

long, this was just for benefit of the doubt). This example worked to about

3200 n*m as opposed to 400 n*m. This did not account for the hack squat

being done on 2 legs at a time and the cut often being on just one. So try

3200 n*m vs 100 n*m.

So for those who still think that lifting is the cause of the pain I'll pose

this question: where would you rather hurt, your knee or your back. This

question doesn't really matter though since the forces from sport are much

more likely to cause injury or pain.

J s, MS, CSCS, USAW, NSCA-CPT

Assistant Strength & Conditioning Coach

College of ton

Strength Dept.

30 Str.

ton, SC 29424

(843)953-1424

(865)405-2136

jjacobs24@...

" Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to

reform " Mark Twain

" Human beings, by changing the inner attitudes of their minds, can change

the outer aspects of their lives "

>

>Reply-To: Supertraining

>To: Supertraining

>Subject: Barbell Squat and Knee Position...

>Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 16:08:14 -0000

>

>I found the following article in the current Journal of Strength and

>Conditioning Research most enlightening:

>

>Effect of knee position on hip and knee torques during the barbell

>squat.

>

>Fry AC, JC, Schilling BK.

>

>Human Performance Laboratories, The University of Memphis, Memphis,

>Tennessee 38152, USA. afry@...

>J Strength Cond Res. 2003 Nov; 17(4): 629-33.

>

>It basically found that while keeping shin vertical lowers knee

>forces, it transfers them (maybe inappropriately so) to the hip and

>low-back. Therefore it would seem that rather than slavishly

>adhering to the idea of never letting the knees track forward of the

>toes, strength professionals and coaches need to help people

>squatting (or lunging) improve all links of the chain so that the

>athletes can then develop the style that is most successful for their

>individual bodies.

>

>With respect to the lunge (for the person with the female volleyball

>players), you need to evaluate them to see if they have the proper

>motor pattern that activates the proper muscles to avoid knee pain.

>Often a toe-dominant, forward moving landing with insufficient glute

>activation will lead to knee pain. I have found with teaching

>personal training clients to squat and lunge, cuing them to use the

>appropriate muscle patterns almost totally eliminates knee pain.

>

>I hope this gives some insight to folks on squat and lunge kinematics.

>

> Merrick, M.A.

>NSCA CSCS/CPT

>ACSM HFI

>Bellevue, NE

>Practicing fitness professional and competing powerlifter

January 26, 2004