Re: Dynamic Warm Up Knee Pain

[Guest guest]

I would say tendonitis at first sight. That sound like one of the typical sign

of it at first. Do you make sure that their knee does not get past forward their

toe tips at the end of the eccentric part?

Laforest

Chambly, Québec, Canada

[Guest guest]

I would say tendonitis at first sight. That sound like one of the typical sign

of it at first. Do you make sure that their knee does not get past forward their

toe tips at the end of the eccentric part?

Laforest

Chambly, Québec, Canada

[Guest guest]

,

Why does the knee need to be behind the toes? What difference does this make? My

knees travel beyond my toes in many activites such as walking up a flight of

stairs and they don't bother me.

The old " don't let your knees go beyong your toes " is a classic in many aerobic

classes but really has no merit.

For a better explaination please see Facts and Fallacies of Fitness, Pg. 31 " The

knees should never project ahead of the toes during any exercise " by Mel Siff.

Condron

NYC,NY

Fabricant wrote:

Could be one of two things!

1.) Check their form. The knee needs to be behind the toe. In-line with the

ankle. Otherwise you can put a strain on the meniscus and other ligaments quite

easily. Make sure they can walk forwards, then backwards, then at a 45,

CORRECTLY before doing any type of plyometric lunge. They probably are weak in

the hamstrings as well. I have found most women soccer players to have strong

(and actually a good amount of hypertrophy) in the quads/VMO, they may not be

placing any/enough of the force/tension in the glutes and hamstrings, this can

be achieved by taking longer steps usually.

OR

2.) You are extremely unlucky.

Very truly yours,

Fabricant

Explosive Fitness

Chicago, Illinois

lehi53 wrote:

During the dynamic warm up of my team about half of the athletes(14-

15 year old girls) complain of knee pain when doing lunges. What are

possible causes of the knee pain during the warm up and what should I

do?

taylor tollison

salt lake

[Guest guest]

Females also tend to have a larger Q angle, which, during some activities can

manifest in knee pain. be cognizant of the hormonal changes that can occur with

females of this age group, as these can alter the structure and integrity of the

soft tissues.

McCann

Philadelphia, PA

Fabricant wrote:

>Could be one of two things!

>

>

>1.) Check their form. The knee needs to be behind the toe. In-line with the

ankle. Otherwise you can put a strain on the meniscus and other ligaments quite

easily. Make sure they can walk forwards, then backwards, then at a 45,

CORRECTLY before doing any type of plyometric lunge. They probably are weak in

the hamstrings as well. I have found most women soccer players to have strong

(and actually a good amount of hypertrophy) in the quads/VMO, they may not be

placing any/enough of the force/tension in the glutes and hamstrings, this can

be achieved by taking longer steps usually.

>

>

>OR

>

>

>2.) You are extremely unlucky.

[Guest guest]

Females also tend to have a larger Q angle, which, during some activities can

manifest in knee pain. be cognizant of the hormonal changes that can occur with

females of this age group, as these can alter the structure and integrity of the

soft tissues.

McCann

Philadelphia, PA

Fabricant wrote:

>Could be one of two things!

>

>

>1.) Check their form. The knee needs to be behind the toe. In-line with the

ankle. Otherwise you can put a strain on the meniscus and other ligaments quite

easily. Make sure they can walk forwards, then backwards, then at a 45,

CORRECTLY before doing any type of plyometric lunge. They probably are weak in

the hamstrings as well. I have found most women soccer players to have strong

(and actually a good amount of hypertrophy) in the quads/VMO, they may not be

placing any/enough of the force/tension in the glutes and hamstrings, this can

be achieved by taking longer steps usually.

>

>

>OR

>

>

>2.) You are extremely unlucky.

[Guest guest]

Regarding the biomechanics of a lunge which you have mentioned below is

quite often an interesting debate amongst professionals. I have heard

arguments as to why you should and should not travel beyond your toes. I

have no idea as to whether or not there is hard data supporting either

one but I feel the logic in regards to traveling 0-5 degrees beyond the

toe during either a lunge or a step up is 100% functional and an

acceptable movement as long as one is keeping the center of gravity over

their base of support which is really the guideline for proper

biomechanics. Keeping the knee parallel to the ankle seems like an

exaggeration of minimal range of motion to me. Just commenting, any

comments or criticisms are welcome.

Zimmerman

NY, NY

lehi53 wrote:

<During the dynamic warm up of my team about half of the athletes(14-

15 year old girls) complain of knee pain when doing lunges. What are

possible causes of the knee pain during the warm up and what should I

do?>

taylor tollison

salt lake

[Guest guest]

Regarding the biomechanics of a lunge which you have mentioned below is

quite often an interesting debate amongst professionals. I have heard

arguments as to why you should and should not travel beyond your toes. I

have no idea as to whether or not there is hard data supporting either

one but I feel the logic in regards to traveling 0-5 degrees beyond the

toe during either a lunge or a step up is 100% functional and an

acceptable movement as long as one is keeping the center of gravity over

their base of support which is really the guideline for proper

biomechanics. Keeping the knee parallel to the ankle seems like an

exaggeration of minimal range of motion to me. Just commenting, any

comments or criticisms are welcome.

Zimmerman

NY, NY

lehi53 wrote:

<During the dynamic warm up of my team about half of the athletes(14-

15 year old girls) complain of knee pain when doing lunges. What are

possible causes of the knee pain during the warm up and what should I

do?>

taylor tollison

salt lake

[Guest guest]

;

I believe Mel was referring to a squat in which case

this is absolutely correct, the knees do advance

foward most of the time over the toes, a good example

of this with powerlifters/powerlifting. Has to be done

so the center of gravity is in the right place. I

don't believe he was referring to a lunge, and I'm

sure he was not referring to a 13-17 year old female

with much stronger quads than hamstrings, which is

usually the case with soccer players. When the knee

hits 90 degrees (flexion v. extension), as they should

in a walking lunge what happens to the quads v. the

hamstrings the torque (on the knee) on decent can

reach 60 N * m, on reversing the movement, the ascent,

the torque (knee extension) goes as high as 160 N * m,

a large contrast already (Knapik, , Mawdsley and

Braun 1983). If you go past 90, as you would with the

knees over the toes (more like 110 to 120), you take

the most of the hamstring out of the movement right?

So the torque is essentially pulling the knee without

the stability of the Hamstring, essentially an agonist

action with a weakend antagonist. The fact that most

of them have little hamstring strength makes this

significant. This is why we want them to keep the

knees behind the toes. What is the point for you in

doing the lunge anyways? And purely from a common

sense perspective, if they're going past 90 and their

knees are giving them problems wouldn't you want to

eliminate the problem?

Very truly yours,

Fabricant

Chicago, Illinois

Explosive Fitness

--- declan condron wrote:

> ,

>

> Why does the knee need to be behind the toes? What

> difference does this make? My knees travel beyond my

> toes in many activites such as walking up a flight

> of stairs and they don't bother me.

>

> The old " don't let your knees go beyong your toes "

> is a classic in many aerobic classes but really has

> no merit.

>

> For a better explaination please see Facts and

> Fallacies of Fitness, Pg. 31 " The knees should never

> project ahead of the toes during any exercise " by

> Mel Siff.

>

> Condron

> NYC,NY

[Guest guest]

and :

Flexing the knee past 90 degrees in a lunge does not necessarily take

the hip extensors ( " hamstrings " in your reply) out of the equation. The

involvement of the hip extensors will depend upon the amount of flexion

at the hip in the descending phase of the movement, the vector in which

one is travelling. The degree of hip and knee flexion can be more or

less than each other, not dependant upon each other, but rather

dependent upon the mechanics utilized. For example, if the knee is

flexing past 90 degrees, I would assume that, if mechanics were utilized

to place the COG in line with the reactive forces of the line of force

generated by the direction of applied force by the plantar platform (how

I personally teach lunges), that the hip would need to flex more too,

thus involving the hip extensors more too.

How are you testing the quad v. ham strength? Open chain comparisons do

not translate to closed chain contexts. EMG activities of muscles

tested in open chain fashion, have shown a decrease in activity in a

closed chain to " meet " the forces generated by the rest of the chain.

So to correct a closed chain force generation imbalance, simply change

the mechanics of the joints involved, i.e. in this case, flex the hip

more to involve more of the hip extensors to take up the brunt of the

forces that the knee and its surrounding musculature were previously

taking up. This may mean taking some flexion of the knee away

initially, however it does not mean that greater, more " functional "

ROM's at the knee cannot be built back up to again, this time with

mechanics that allow force generation from more of the complete chain

involved--i.e. flexing the hip more to increase hip musculature

activity, and to allow the COG to be in alignment with the reactive

forces of the forces generated from the plantar platform.

If a soccer player were to continue to train w/ knees behind the toe,

this would:

1. limit her ability on the field.

2. decrease her strength in " soccer specific functional ROM's " --this

would put her at risk for in the context of the " heat of the moment " on

the field, the lack of strength in such functional ROM's would make the

joint in question more susceptible to injury.

3. possibly decrease her pain at the knee, and prevent a more serious

condition from developing.

SO:

1. both points from and are good ones, however both

without context to the point in the athlete's training program she is

in.

2. the goal is to eliminate the pain and increase functionality-keep

this in mind when periodizing your training programs...

Does the study you () site say anything about the action at the

hip, lumbo-pelvic rhythm, and the position of the COG relative to the

GRF's at the moments of greatest torques at the knee? That would

validate (for me) the findings of the study as these contextual items

could be determining factors as to how relevant the findings are from a

systemic perspective.

Adam Cronin

NYC, NY

Kettlebell Concepts, Inc.

Evolution Studios SoHo, Inc.

Re: Dynamic Warm Up Knee Pain

;

I believe Mel was referring to a squat in which case

this is absolutely correct, the knees do advance

foward most of the time over the toes, a good example

of this with powerlifters/powerlifting. Has to be done

so the center of gravity is in the right place. I

don't believe he was referring to a lunge, and I'm

sure he was not referring to a 13-17 year old female

with much stronger quads than hamstrings, which is

usually the case with soccer players. When the knee

hits 90 degrees (flexion v. extension), as they should

in a walking lunge what happens to the quads v. the

hamstrings the torque (on the knee) on decent can

reach 60 N * m, on reversing the movement, the ascent,

the torque (knee extension) goes as high as 160 N * m,

a large contrast already (Knapik, , Mawdsley and

Braun 1983). If you go past 90, as you would with the

knees over the toes (more like 110 to 120), you take

the most of the hamstring out of the movement right?

So the torque is essentially pulling the knee without

the stability of the Hamstring, essentially an agonist

action with a weakend antagonist. The fact that most

of them have little hamstring strength makes this

significant. This is why we want them to keep the

knees behind the toes. What is the point for you in

doing the lunge anyways? And purely from a common

sense perspective, if they're going past 90 and their

knees are giving them problems wouldn't you want to

eliminate the problem?

Very truly yours,

Fabricant

Chicago, Illinois

Explosive Fitness

--- declan condron wrote:

> ,

>

> Why does the knee need to be behind the toes? What

> difference does this make? My knees travel beyond my

> toes in many activites such as walking up a flight

> of stairs and they don't bother me.

>

> The old " don't let your knees go beyong your toes "

> is a classic in many aerobic classes but really has

> no merit.

>

> For a better explaination please see Facts and

> Fallacies of Fitness, Pg. 31 " The knees should never

> project ahead of the toes during any exercise " by

> Mel Siff.

>

> Condron

> NYC,NY

[Guest guest]

and :

Flexing the knee past 90 degrees in a lunge does not necessarily take

the hip extensors ( " hamstrings " in your reply) out of the equation. The

involvement of the hip extensors will depend upon the amount of flexion

at the hip in the descending phase of the movement, the vector in which

one is travelling. The degree of hip and knee flexion can be more or

less than each other, not dependant upon each other, but rather

dependent upon the mechanics utilized. For example, if the knee is

flexing past 90 degrees, I would assume that, if mechanics were utilized

to place the COG in line with the reactive forces of the line of force

generated by the direction of applied force by the plantar platform (how

I personally teach lunges), that the hip would need to flex more too,

thus involving the hip extensors more too.

How are you testing the quad v. ham strength? Open chain comparisons do

not translate to closed chain contexts. EMG activities of muscles

tested in open chain fashion, have shown a decrease in activity in a

closed chain to " meet " the forces generated by the rest of the chain.

So to correct a closed chain force generation imbalance, simply change

the mechanics of the joints involved, i.e. in this case, flex the hip

more to involve more of the hip extensors to take up the brunt of the

forces that the knee and its surrounding musculature were previously

taking up. This may mean taking some flexion of the knee away

initially, however it does not mean that greater, more " functional "

ROM's at the knee cannot be built back up to again, this time with

mechanics that allow force generation from more of the complete chain

involved--i.e. flexing the hip more to increase hip musculature

activity, and to allow the COG to be in alignment with the reactive

forces of the forces generated from the plantar platform.

If a soccer player were to continue to train w/ knees behind the toe,

this would:

1. limit her ability on the field.

2. decrease her strength in " soccer specific functional ROM's " --this

would put her at risk for in the context of the " heat of the moment " on

the field, the lack of strength in such functional ROM's would make the

joint in question more susceptible to injury.

3. possibly decrease her pain at the knee, and prevent a more serious

condition from developing.

SO:

1. both points from and are good ones, however both

without context to the point in the athlete's training program she is

in.

2. the goal is to eliminate the pain and increase functionality-keep

this in mind when periodizing your training programs...

Does the study you () site say anything about the action at the

hip, lumbo-pelvic rhythm, and the position of the COG relative to the

GRF's at the moments of greatest torques at the knee? That would

validate (for me) the findings of the study as these contextual items

could be determining factors as to how relevant the findings are from a

systemic perspective.

Adam Cronin

NYC, NY

Kettlebell Concepts, Inc.

Evolution Studios SoHo, Inc.

Re: Dynamic Warm Up Knee Pain

;

I believe Mel was referring to a squat in which case

this is absolutely correct, the knees do advance

foward most of the time over the toes, a good example

of this with powerlifters/powerlifting. Has to be done

so the center of gravity is in the right place. I

don't believe he was referring to a lunge, and I'm

sure he was not referring to a 13-17 year old female

with much stronger quads than hamstrings, which is

usually the case with soccer players. When the knee

hits 90 degrees (flexion v. extension), as they should

in a walking lunge what happens to the quads v. the

hamstrings the torque (on the knee) on decent can

reach 60 N * m, on reversing the movement, the ascent,

the torque (knee extension) goes as high as 160 N * m,

a large contrast already (Knapik, , Mawdsley and

Braun 1983). If you go past 90, as you would with the

knees over the toes (more like 110 to 120), you take

the most of the hamstring out of the movement right?

So the torque is essentially pulling the knee without

the stability of the Hamstring, essentially an agonist

action with a weakend antagonist. The fact that most

of them have little hamstring strength makes this

significant. This is why we want them to keep the

knees behind the toes. What is the point for you in

doing the lunge anyways? And purely from a common

sense perspective, if they're going past 90 and their

knees are giving them problems wouldn't you want to

eliminate the problem?

Very truly yours,

Fabricant

Chicago, Illinois

Explosive Fitness

--- declan condron wrote:

> ,

>

> Why does the knee need to be behind the toes? What

> difference does this make? My knees travel beyond my

> toes in many activites such as walking up a flight

> of stairs and they don't bother me.

>

> The old " don't let your knees go beyong your toes "

> is a classic in many aerobic classes but really has

> no merit.

>

> For a better explaination please see Facts and

> Fallacies of Fitness, Pg. 31 " The knees should never

> project ahead of the toes during any exercise " by

> Mel Siff.

>

> Condron

> NYC,NY