Re: CNS Fatigue and Recovery

[Guest guest]

Believe it or not, I Agree that CNS " overload " is well, " horse hockey "

personally. Below is a bit of a look at the pre-meet PL sort of set - both

physical and mental - topic expansion as it were, as some things about this

have made me wonder recently!

The famous CNS overload is the reason often given by those who believe you

should not deadlift as a powerlifter every week. (personally I think it

should be used much more as a reason to not SQUAT every week, that's the

lift that frankly makes MY CNS rebel <LAUGHING> as well as my stupid

KNEE...)

My CNS has not failed me despite this clearly heretical practice..

What I take time off before a PL comp for is REST of muscles and mind. The

training that you use in peaking out is usually the lowest reps, highest

weights, most equipped, and really the most challenging for most people -

and you need oh, a few days off before you compete to rest your muscles -

and prepare your MIND. Oh and if you're making weight class, lifting

usually keeps on a bit of weight you need to lose - so ending your program

5-7 days from the meet helps there as well. Weight stays on me more when

I'm still lifting.

The irony about the peaking out of usually the last 3 weeks before a meet

is you are doing a LOT fewer reps, lower weight volume totals, but usually

feel a bit wiped out physically by the end. So you're doing less work

overall than earlier in a program, but feel more tired. Part of it can be

the challenge of handling larger weights than you ever have - that again is

mental prep for the platform.

I have found that taking a minimum of 4 days off completely from the gym

before a meet, but no more than 7, usually gives me a feeling of the weights

being LIGHT in the warmup room. It restores my eagerness as well. The snap

in my erectors seems far better if I get 5 days or more off. But more than

7 days off and I start climbing walls lol. There is such a thing as TOO

much rest!

I wonder though what others do to combat the let down that ensues post meet

for many? Sometimes the hill you climb feels so extreme - and then there's

a feeling of " is that all there is " when you finish your meet and return

home with your trophies. I've found the only way to try to combat this

personally is to start looking forward to the next meet - think about what

went right, and what could improve - and start writing my next training

program within a day or two after the meet.

I guess it really depends on what part of CNS gets overloaded. I really

think there is some argument for mental " battle " style fatigue in a long

program toward a major meet - and time off of a few days at least. But I

never have bought into the idea that my nerves were overloaded at a more

basic level. OL people lift as often as 2 or 3 sessions of lifting a day.

They require a lot of neural response? Yet there doesn't seem to be this

theory hanging about there?

If CNS overload was a reality, I would also expect lifters experiencing true

1 rep maxes to lock up due to nerve failure on the platform....?

Just some thoughts on CNS overload, and the PL peaking and its

consequences - why we rest before a meet.

But I've also heard tales of lifters who take NO time off before a meet -

some stories of certain lifters from other countries seen squatting heavy,

all 5 days prior to a major meet? as a GROUP. Surely if CNS overload were

a fact, would they not be subject to this on the platform? One would hate

to think a certain country's lifters were not well, getting sufficient WORK

on the platform?

And then there's a few people I've seen do an unequipped/equipped meet - 2

days, full PL competitions, back to back! They made what appeared to be max

efforts, two days sequentially. Should they not be subjected to CNS

overload?

Highlands games or strongman competitors? who make what appear to be CNS

challenging competitions over several days sequentially? should we not see a

breakdown?

And above all, what then are the TRUE symptoms of this CNS overload. Are

the measurable, what are the long term consequences, has it truly been

observed in a way similar to one's muscles tearing or mind overtraining?

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

It was written:

> I was explaining to a nurse at work that I was taking the last week off

prior to a powerlifting competition to let my " CNS " central nervous system

to recover maximally. She thought that was horse hockey. She could

understand muscle fatigue and tissue repair, but nerve tissue?? She could

accept endocrine/hormone depletion, but not anything that would take longer

then over night to recover from. Well it didn't help that I was unable

myself to explain the actual process of nerve/endrocrine fatigue, it's

recovery and repair. It seems intuitive and I've always accepted it.

>

> Can someone explain in a nut shell or offer references with greater detail

the process of nerveous system fatigue and recovery?

>

> Hal Lloyd

> Nome AK

[Guest guest]

> I was explaining to a nurse at work that I was taking the last

week off prior to a powerlifting competition to let my " CNS " central

nervous system to recover maximally. She thought that was horse

hockey. She could understand muscle fatigue and tissue repair, but

nerve tissue?? She could accept endocrine/hormone depletion, but

not anything that would take longer then over night to recover from.

Well it didn't help that I was unable myself to explain the actual

process of nerve/endrocrine fatigue, it's recovery and repair. It

seems intuitive and I've always accepted it.

>

> Can someone explain in a nut shell or offer references with

greater detail the process of nerveous system fatigue and recovery?

>

> Hal Lloyd

> Nome AK

***I would start out with these:

***

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=12115976 & dopt=Abstract

Loscher WN, Nordlund MM. Central fatigue and motor cortical

excitability during repeated shortening and lengthening actions.

***

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=8786037 & dopt=Abstract

Matyushkin DP, Krivoi II, Drabkina TM. Synaptic feed-backs mediated

by potassium ions.

***

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

cmd=Retrieve & db=PubMed & list_uids=6913470 & dopt=Abstract

DA. Muscle fatigue due to changes beyond the neuromuscular

junction.

The latter two deal more with the neuromuscular junction and

excitation-contraction coupling system in the muscle itself, but do

provide a basis for neurological " damage " resulting from high-

intensity work.

There hasn't been a whole lot of research done on the idea of

central fatigue; we know it exists, in that there is a protective,

inhibitory effect that comes into play after exposure to high-

frequency impulses, but beyond that there isn't much info.

Key thing to remember is that at heart we're dealing with chemical

systems that transform their energy into other forms. In muscle, it

becomes mechanical work, in neurons it is electrical potentials. Any

time you ask too much of those tissues, they suffer a form of damage

and will respond accordingly.

man

Birmingham, AL

www.wannabebig.com

www.fortifiediron.com

[Guest guest]

Hal,

Try " Muscle Fatigue Mechanisms in Exercise and Training " edited by Komi,

Marconnet, Saltin, and Sejersted.

Adam Cronin

NY,NY

" CNS " Fatigue and Recovery

I was explaining to a nurse at work that I was taking the last week off

prior to a powerlifting competition to let my " CNS " central nervous

system to recover maximally. She thought that was horse hockey. She

could understand muscle fatigue and tissue repair, but nerve tissue??

She could accept endocrine/hormone depletion, but not anything that

would take longer then over night to recover from. Well it didn't help

that I was unable myself to explain the actual process of

nerve/endrocrine fatigue, it's recovery and repair. It seems intuitive

and I've always accepted it.

Can someone explain in a nut shell or offer references with greater

detail the process of nerveous system fatigue and recovery?

Hal Lloyd

Nome AK

[Guest guest]

Hal:

I see this a lot especially with powerlifters. It's not

a good idea to take off the competition week. The CNS

needs/should be stimulated during that time frame. It

has been said that anything past 3 days of inactivity

begins the process of " detraining " or " de-adaptation " .

Look at it this way: when a lifter maxes-out in the

gym, he/she doesn't take off a whole week prior to the

gym-max, so why would someone take off that long for a

meet? The body is used to performing at some level of

activity, in this case powerlifting, certain times

during the week. To suddenly stop and do nothing,

under the belief that " recovery " will be maximized and

the sports performance peak will be ultimately

realized on that weekend is rooted in speculative

insight. Just like training squats more than 1/week

will lead to OT; this is nonsense. I'm an OL and I

train squats (back or front) every workout, and when I

compete (usually 6-7/yr.) I always train at least

twice during the competition week. 80-90% on the first

workout, and anywhere from 60-80% on the second.

Powerlifters need to grasp this concept. I've seen it

for too long this mentality of resting too much during

the competition week. DO SOMETHING...that's what your

body's accustomed to. It's not accustomed to just

sitting around and awaiting the meet. Recovery is

actually enhanced when you're performing your activity

then doing nothing (this is true, this has been

physiologically proven, not just my opinion).

Hope this sheds some light on it.

McInnes

Wilmington, DE

--- adam cronin wrote:

> Hal,

>

> Try " Muscle Fatigue Mechanisms in Exercise and

> Training " edited by Komi,

> Marconnet, Saltin, and Sejersted.

>

> Adam Cronin

> NY,NY

>

> " CNS " Fatigue and Recovery

>

>

> I was explaining to a nurse at work that I was

> taking the last week off

> prior to a powerlifting competition to let my " CNS "

> central nervous

> system to recover maximally. She thought that was

> horse hockey. She

> could understand muscle fatigue and tissue repair,

> but nerve tissue??

> She could accept endocrine/hormone depletion, but

> not anything that

> would take longer then over night to recover from.

> Well it didn't help

> that I was unable myself to explain the actual

> process of

> nerve/endrocrine fatigue, it's recovery and repair.

> It seems intuitive

> and I've always accepted it.

>

> Can someone explain in a nut shell or offer

> references with greater

> detail the process of nerveous system fatigue and

> recovery?

>

> Hal Lloyd

> Nome AK

[Guest guest]

Thank you , and for your replys.

Ok I got it out of my mind that there is actual CNS damage or fatigue that takes

anytime to recover from. I'll let that misinformation die. So why do we feel

more beat with high intensity, low rep workouts that accomplish less work or

volume then the higher rep less weight? I can accept the psychological component

of resting your mind... suggests that OLs overcome or are not affected by

that psychological component, I'm not so sure that is correct because while they

may lift more often they are training for speed and form.

Even when they do lift maximally, the overhead lift is a lift that is initiated

by the same muscle groups that squat and deadlift, yet they are not handling

near as much weight as they could squat or deadlift. Is that a fair statement?

So when one lifts maximally in such a way that the lift is slow....(which

precludes an olympic lift) they are pretty well whole body fatigued that is

different then muscle fatigue from higher reps even though the later may very

well have accomplished more work...So is this a chemical/endocrine fatigue? I

just find it hard to accept that its psychological only.

Thanks for your input.

Hal Lloyd

Nome Alaska

Schaefer wrote:

Believe it or not, I Agree that CNS " overload " is well, " horse hockey "

personally. Below is a bit of a look at the pre-meet PL sort of set - both

physical and mental - topic expansion as it were, as some things about this

have made me wonder recently!

The famous CNS overload is the reason often given by those who believe you

should not deadlift as a powerlifter every week. (personally I think it

should be used much more as a reason to not SQUAT every week, that's the

lift that frankly makes MY CNS rebel <LAUGHING> as well as my stupid

KNEE...)

My CNS has not failed me despite this clearly heretical practice..

What I take time off before a PL comp for is REST of muscles and mind. The

training that you use in peaking out is usually the lowest reps, highest

weights, most equipped, and really the most challenging for most people -

and you need oh, a few days off before you compete to rest your muscles -

and prepare your MIND. Oh and if you're making weight class, lifting

usually keeps on a bit of weight you need to lose - so ending your program

5-7 days from the meet helps there as well. Weight stays on me more when

I'm still lifting.

The irony about the peaking out of usually the last 3 weeks before a meet

is you are doing a LOT fewer reps, lower weight volume totals, but usually

feel a bit wiped out physically by the end. So you're doing less work

overall than earlier in a program, but feel more tired. Part of it can be

the challenge of handling larger weights than you ever have - that again is

mental prep for the platform.

I have found that taking a minimum of 4 days off completely from the gym

before a meet, but no more than 7, usually gives me a feeling of the weights

being LIGHT in the warmup room. It restores my eagerness as well. The snap

in my erectors seems far better if I get 5 days or more off. But more than

7 days off and I start climbing walls lol. There is such a thing as TOO

much rest!

I wonder though what others do to combat the let down that ensues post meet

for many? Sometimes the hill you climb feels so extreme - and then there's

a feeling of " is that all there is " when you finish your meet and return

home with your trophies. I've found the only way to try to combat this

personally is to start looking forward to the next meet - think about what

went right, and what could improve - and start writing my next training

program within a day or two after the meet.

I guess it really depends on what part of CNS gets overloaded. I really

think there is some argument for mental " battle " style fatigue in a long

program toward a major meet - and time off of a few days at least. But I

never have bought into the idea that my nerves were overloaded at a more

basic level. OL people lift as often as 2 or 3 sessions of lifting a day.

They require a lot of neural response? Yet there doesn't seem to be this

theory hanging about there?

If CNS overload was a reality, I would also expect lifters experiencing true

1 rep maxes to lock up due to nerve failure on the platform....?

Just some thoughts on CNS overload, and the PL peaking and its

consequences - why we rest before a meet.

But I've also heard tales of lifters who take NO time off before a meet -

some stories of certain lifters from other countries seen squatting heavy,

all 5 days prior to a major meet? as a GROUP. Surely if CNS overload were

a fact, would they not be subject to this on the platform? One would hate

to think a certain country's lifters were not well, getting sufficient WORK

on the platform?

And then there's a few people I've seen do an unequipped/equipped meet - 2

days, full PL competitions, back to back! They made what appeared to be max

efforts, two days sequentially. Should they not be subjected to CNS

overload?

Highlands games or strongman competitors? who make what appear to be CNS

challenging competitions over several days sequentially? should we not see a

breakdown?

And above all, what then are the TRUE symptoms of this CNS overload. Are

the measurable, what are the long term consequences, has it truly been

observed in a way similar to one's muscles tearing or mind overtraining?

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

It was written:

> I was explaining to a nurse at work that I was taking the last week off

prior to a powerlifting competition to let my " CNS " central nervous system

to recover maximally. She thought that was horse hockey. She could

understand muscle fatigue and tissue repair, but nerve tissue?? She could

accept endocrine/hormone depletion, but not anything that would take longer

then over night to recover from. Well it didn't help that I was unable

myself to explain the actual process of nerve/endrocrine fatigue, it's

recovery and repair. It seems intuitive and I've always accepted it.

>

> Can someone explain in a nut shell or offer references with greater detail

the process of nerveous system fatigue and recovery?

>

> Hal Lloyd

> Nome AK

[Guest guest]

Thank you , and for your replys.

Ok I got it out of my mind that there is actual CNS damage or fatigue that takes

anytime to recover from. I'll let that misinformation die. So why do we feel

more beat with high intensity, low rep workouts that accomplish less work or

volume then the higher rep less weight? I can accept the psychological component

of resting your mind... suggests that OLs overcome or are not affected by

that psychological component, I'm not so sure that is correct because while they

may lift more often they are training for speed and form.

Even when they do lift maximally, the overhead lift is a lift that is initiated

by the same muscle groups that squat and deadlift, yet they are not handling

near as much weight as they could squat or deadlift. Is that a fair statement?

So when one lifts maximally in such a way that the lift is slow....(which

precludes an olympic lift) they are pretty well whole body fatigued that is

different then muscle fatigue from higher reps even though the later may very

well have accomplished more work...So is this a chemical/endocrine fatigue? I

just find it hard to accept that its psychological only.

Thanks for your input.

Hal Lloyd

Nome Alaska

Schaefer wrote:

Believe it or not, I Agree that CNS " overload " is well, " horse hockey "

personally. Below is a bit of a look at the pre-meet PL sort of set - both

physical and mental - topic expansion as it were, as some things about this

have made me wonder recently!

The famous CNS overload is the reason often given by those who believe you

should not deadlift as a powerlifter every week. (personally I think it

should be used much more as a reason to not SQUAT every week, that's the

lift that frankly makes MY CNS rebel <LAUGHING> as well as my stupid

KNEE...)

My CNS has not failed me despite this clearly heretical practice..

What I take time off before a PL comp for is REST of muscles and mind. The

training that you use in peaking out is usually the lowest reps, highest

weights, most equipped, and really the most challenging for most people -

and you need oh, a few days off before you compete to rest your muscles -

and prepare your MIND. Oh and if you're making weight class, lifting

usually keeps on a bit of weight you need to lose - so ending your program

5-7 days from the meet helps there as well. Weight stays on me more when

I'm still lifting.

The irony about the peaking out of usually the last 3 weeks before a meet

is you are doing a LOT fewer reps, lower weight volume totals, but usually

feel a bit wiped out physically by the end. So you're doing less work

overall than earlier in a program, but feel more tired. Part of it can be

the challenge of handling larger weights than you ever have - that again is

mental prep for the platform.

I have found that taking a minimum of 4 days off completely from the gym

before a meet, but no more than 7, usually gives me a feeling of the weights

being LIGHT in the warmup room. It restores my eagerness as well. The snap

in my erectors seems far better if I get 5 days or more off. But more than

7 days off and I start climbing walls lol. There is such a thing as TOO

much rest!

I wonder though what others do to combat the let down that ensues post meet

for many? Sometimes the hill you climb feels so extreme - and then there's

a feeling of " is that all there is " when you finish your meet and return

home with your trophies. I've found the only way to try to combat this

personally is to start looking forward to the next meet - think about what

went right, and what could improve - and start writing my next training

program within a day or two after the meet.

I guess it really depends on what part of CNS gets overloaded. I really

think there is some argument for mental " battle " style fatigue in a long

program toward a major meet - and time off of a few days at least. But I

never have bought into the idea that my nerves were overloaded at a more

basic level. OL people lift as often as 2 or 3 sessions of lifting a day.

They require a lot of neural response? Yet there doesn't seem to be this

theory hanging about there?

If CNS overload was a reality, I would also expect lifters experiencing true

1 rep maxes to lock up due to nerve failure on the platform....?

Just some thoughts on CNS overload, and the PL peaking and its

consequences - why we rest before a meet.

But I've also heard tales of lifters who take NO time off before a meet -

some stories of certain lifters from other countries seen squatting heavy,

all 5 days prior to a major meet? as a GROUP. Surely if CNS overload were

a fact, would they not be subject to this on the platform? One would hate

to think a certain country's lifters were not well, getting sufficient WORK

on the platform?

And then there's a few people I've seen do an unequipped/equipped meet - 2

days, full PL competitions, back to back! They made what appeared to be max

efforts, two days sequentially. Should they not be subjected to CNS

overload?

Highlands games or strongman competitors? who make what appear to be CNS

challenging competitions over several days sequentially? should we not see a

breakdown?

And above all, what then are the TRUE symptoms of this CNS overload. Are

the measurable, what are the long term consequences, has it truly been

observed in a way similar to one's muscles tearing or mind overtraining?

The Phantom

aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

Denver, Colorado, USA

It was written:

> I was explaining to a nurse at work that I was taking the last week off

prior to a powerlifting competition to let my " CNS " central nervous system

to recover maximally. She thought that was horse hockey. She could

understand muscle fatigue and tissue repair, but nerve tissue?? She could

accept endocrine/hormone depletion, but not anything that would take longer

then over night to recover from. Well it didn't help that I was unable

myself to explain the actual process of nerve/endrocrine fatigue, it's

recovery and repair. It seems intuitive and I've always accepted it.

>

> Can someone explain in a nut shell or offer references with greater detail

the process of nerveous system fatigue and recovery?

>

> Hal Lloyd

> Nome AK

[Guest guest]

Would this be relevant to your inquiry?

*********************************************************************

Neuromuscular disturbance outlasts other symptoms of exercise-induced

muscle damage.

Deschenes MR, Brewer RE, Bush JA, McCoy RW, Volek JS, Kraemer WJ.

Department of Kinesiology, The College of & , burg,

VA 23187-8795, USA. mrdesc@...

This study examined the biochemical, immunological, functional, and

neuromuscular responses associated with exercise-induced muscle damage in

the quadriceps of untrained men. Muscle damage and soreness was elicited

with maximal concentric/eccentric muscle actions at 0.53 rads s(-1).

Significant (P<0.05) soreness was evident 1, 2, and 3 days following

muscle insult, while plasma creatine kinase, a marker of muscle damage,

was elevated 3 and 5 days post-insult. Plasma interleukin-Ibeta was

significantly increased within 5 min, and remained elevated 1, 2, 5, and

7 days post-insult. Maximal isometric quadriceps function was impaired

(P<0. 05) for 5 days following muscle challenge. Maximal isokinetic

performance at 1.09 rads s(-1) was diminished (P<0.05) for 2 days

post-insult; no significant decrements at 3.14 rads s(-1) were noted.

Average electrical activation (iEMG) of the quadriceps was unaltered, but

iEMG activity of the rectus femoris - where soreness was focused - was

significantly increased. Neuromuscular efficiency (torque/iEMG) was

compromised throughout the 10-day post-insult period investigated. While

other symptoms of exercise-induced muscle damage dissipate within 7 days,

neuromuscular perturbation persists for at least 10 days.

Ron Sowers

Post Falls Id

USA

[Guest guest]

Would this be relevant to your inquiry?

*********************************************************************

Neuromuscular disturbance outlasts other symptoms of exercise-induced

muscle damage.

Deschenes MR, Brewer RE, Bush JA, McCoy RW, Volek JS, Kraemer WJ.

Department of Kinesiology, The College of & , burg,

VA 23187-8795, USA. mrdesc@...

This study examined the biochemical, immunological, functional, and

neuromuscular responses associated with exercise-induced muscle damage in

the quadriceps of untrained men. Muscle damage and soreness was elicited

with maximal concentric/eccentric muscle actions at 0.53 rads s(-1).

Significant (P<0.05) soreness was evident 1, 2, and 3 days following

muscle insult, while plasma creatine kinase, a marker of muscle damage,

was elevated 3 and 5 days post-insult. Plasma interleukin-Ibeta was

significantly increased within 5 min, and remained elevated 1, 2, 5, and

7 days post-insult. Maximal isometric quadriceps function was impaired

(P<0. 05) for 5 days following muscle challenge. Maximal isokinetic

performance at 1.09 rads s(-1) was diminished (P<0.05) for 2 days

post-insult; no significant decrements at 3.14 rads s(-1) were noted.

Average electrical activation (iEMG) of the quadriceps was unaltered, but

iEMG activity of the rectus femoris - where soreness was focused - was

significantly increased. Neuromuscular efficiency (torque/iEMG) was

compromised throughout the 10-day post-insult period investigated. While

other symptoms of exercise-induced muscle damage dissipate within 7 days,

neuromuscular perturbation persists for at least 10 days.

Ron Sowers

Post Falls Id

USA

[Guest guest]

I must respectfully disagree with the notion that there is no actual

CNS damage or fatigue. In my experience, working with a piece of

physiological diagnostic software that can measure CNS function,

known as Omegawave Sport (www.omegawavesport.com), I've found CNS

fatigue and overload to be very real with very measureable

physiological effects. The software, originally developed by the

Russians for use in their space program,and spoken highly of by Mel,

allows one to measure very specifically CNS function and thus its

fatigue and overload.

When you see CNS fatigue or overload, depending on what you want to

call it, you will also see marked changes in various performance

measures such as increased ground contact time during plyometric

activities, decreased power output, a slowing of reaction time, etc.

These are all very real and measureable effects of allowing the CNS

to be excessively fatigued over a period of time.

A few observations:

- The length of recovery time needed to bring the CNS back to normal

function depends greatly on the degree to which it was depleted, the

recovery ability of the individual, and recovery methods used.

- IIA/B dominant/Alactic individuals tend to have larger flucuations

in CNS function and fatigue

- CNS recovery ability is a very individual characteristic, some have

tremendous capacity, others very little

- According to a study done at the US Olympic Training Center, the

best recovery methods for CNS include: 12 minute recovery jog,

sauna/cold plunge, deep water floating.

- I have personally seen great results in CNS recovery from using

acupuncture with stim targeting the parasympathetic system.

- High RFD and high intensity activies place the greatest demand on

the CNS and thus tend to deplete it the most rapidly.

- Aside from general CNS overload, there can be fatigue of either the

sympathetic, or parasympathetic branches, each with its own set of

symptoms and recovery methods.

As far as the exact neurphysiological mechanics of CNS fatigue, I am

not a neurologist and could only begin to speculate. I do know,

however, from personal experience in measuring directly and

indirectly CNS function and performance with countless athletes, that

its fatigue is very real, measureable, and must be taken into account

as part of the overall training process.

son CSCS

EndZone Athletics - Director

Kirkland, WA

> Believe it or not, I Agree that CNS " overload " is well, " horse

hockey "

> personally. Below is a bit of a look at the pre-meet PL sort of

set - both

> physical and mental - topic expansion as it were, as some things

about this

> have made me wonder recently!

>

> The famous CNS overload is the reason often given by those who

believe you

> should not deadlift as a powerlifter every week. (personally I

think it

> should be used much more as a reason to not SQUAT every week,

that's the

> lift that frankly makes MY CNS rebel <LAUGHING> as well as my stupid

> KNEE...)

>

> My CNS has not failed me despite this clearly heretical practice..

>

> What I take time off before a PL comp for is REST of muscles and

mind. The

> training that you use in peaking out is usually the lowest reps,

highest

> weights, most equipped, and really the most challenging for most

people -

> and you need oh, a few days off before you compete to rest your

muscles -

> and prepare your MIND. Oh and if you're making weight class,

lifting

> usually keeps on a bit of weight you need to lose - so ending your

program

> 5-7 days from the meet helps there as well. Weight stays on me

more when

> I'm still lifting.

>

> The irony about the peaking out of usually the last 3 weeks before

a meet

> is you are doing a LOT fewer reps, lower weight volume totals, but

usually

> feel a bit wiped out physically by the end. So you're doing less

work

> overall than earlier in a program, but feel more tired. Part of it

can be

> the challenge of handling larger weights than you ever have - that

again is

> mental prep for the platform.

>

> I have found that taking a minimum of 4 days off completely from

the gym

> before a meet, but no more than 7, usually gives me a feeling of

the weights

> being LIGHT in the warmup room. It restores my eagerness as well.

The snap

> in my erectors seems far better if I get 5 days or more off. But

more than

> 7 days off and I start climbing walls lol. There is such a thing

as TOO

> much rest!

>

> I wonder though what others do to combat the let down that ensues

post meet

> for many? Sometimes the hill you climb feels so extreme - and then

there's

> a feeling of " is that all there is " when you finish your meet and

return

> home with your trophies. I've found the only way to try to combat

this

> personally is to start looking forward to the next meet - think

about what

> went right, and what could improve - and start writing my next

training

> program within a day or two after the meet.

>

> I guess it really depends on what part of CNS gets overloaded. I

really

> think there is some argument for mental " battle " style fatigue in a

long

> program toward a major meet - and time off of a few days at least.

But I

> never have bought into the idea that my nerves were overloaded at

a more

> basic level. OL people lift as often as 2 or 3 sessions of lifting

a day.

> They require a lot of neural response? Yet there doesn't seem to

be this

> theory hanging about there?

>

> If CNS overload was a reality, I would also expect lifters

experiencing true

> 1 rep maxes to lock up due to nerve failure on the platform....?

>

> Just some thoughts on CNS overload, and the PL peaking and its

> consequences - why we rest before a meet.

>

> But I've also heard tales of lifters who take NO time off before a

meet -

> some stories of certain lifters from other countries seen squatting

heavy,

> all 5 days prior to a major meet? as a GROUP. Surely if CNS

overload were

> a fact, would they not be subject to this on the platform? One

would hate

> to think a certain country's lifters were not well, getting

sufficient WORK

> on the platform?

>

> And then there's a few people I've seen do an unequipped/equipped

meet - 2

> days, full PL competitions, back to back! They made what appeared

to be max

> efforts, two days sequentially. Should they not be subjected to CNS

> overload?

>

> Highlands games or strongman competitors? who make what appear to

be CNS

> challenging competitions over several days sequentially? should we

not see a

> breakdown?

>

> And above all, what then are the TRUE symptoms of this CNS

overload. Are

> the measurable, what are the long term consequences, has it truly

been

> observed in a way similar to one's muscles tearing or mind

overtraining?

>

> The Phantom

> aka Schaefer, CMT, CSCS, competing powerlifter

> Denver, Colorado, USA

>

> It was written:

>

> > I was explaining to a nurse at work that I was taking the last

week off

> prior to a powerlifting competition to let my " CNS " central nervous

system

> to recover maximally. She thought that was horse hockey. She could

> understand muscle fatigue and tissue repair, but nerve tissue??

She could

> accept endocrine/hormone depletion, but not anything that would

take longer

> then over night to recover from. Well it didn't help that I was

unable

> myself to explain the actual process of nerve/endrocrine fatigue,

it's

> recovery and repair. It seems intuitive and I've always accepted it.

> >

> > Can someone explain in a nut shell or offer references with

greater detail

> the process of nerveous system fatigue and recovery?

> >

> > Hal Lloyd

> > Nome AK

[Guest guest]

I've read Ian Kings views on training with weights no more than two

days in a row as the nervous system needs time to recover as well as

the muscles.

Does anyone know of research done in the area of CNS fatigue, can it

be measured? Any abstractions/citations are welcome.

Regards,

Melnyk

College Park, MD USA

[Guest guest]

I've read Ian Kings views on training with weights no more than two

days in a row as the nervous system needs time to recover as well as

the muscles.

Does anyone know of research done in the area of CNS fatigue, can it

be measured? Any abstractions/citations are welcome.

Regards,

Melnyk

College Park, MD USA

[Guest guest]

Typically when people refer to neural fatigue, they refer to the central nervous

system (CNS) with little or no mention of the peripheral nervous system (PNS).

It is important to consider though, the interactions between the CNS, PNS as

well as musculoskeletal system and the endocrine system. In fact, the function

of the endocrine system is so overwhelmingly linked to nervous system function

that a more appropriate name is the neuro-endocrine system.

In general, there are two types of " overtraining " - sympathetic and

parasympathetic, both affecting the PNS and CNS. Sympathetic is thought to

occur first, with increased activity of the sympathetic nervous system, such as

increased release of catecholamines, up-regulation of beta-receptors, etc.

Parasympathetic is thought to occur second, with increased activity of the

parasympathetic nervous system, resulting in the opposite responses/adaptations

to sympathetic overtraining. While parasympathetic overtraining appears to be

well documented, whether sympathetic overtraining occurs is questionable.

Regarding neural fatigue, perhaps the two major structures in the CNS which are

of interest regarding exercise and training are the hypothalamus, which

regulates homeostasis and the pituitary gland which secretes hormones, many of

which have a primary function of signalling release of other hormones. These

hormones include the anabolic-androgenic hormones, estrogens, thyroid and

related hormones. So in theory training can (temporarily) negatively affect the

CNS - in practice it appears to be more likely when training volume is

considerably high and during prolonged periods of high volume training. This

may account for the comments regarding powerlifters not appearing to suffer from

CNS fatigue - the volume of training in powerlifting is relatively low, compared

to sports such as weightlifting as well as all " endurance sports. "

We should not, however, forget the PNS and control of muscular activity. With

strenuous resistance exercise protocols, either high- or low-frequency fatigue

occurs for durations as long as a week. Thus planning brief but frequent

periods of recovery-type training is imperative. For more regarding this, see

the recent articles of Plisk & Stone, and Chiu & in the latest Strength

and Conditioning Journal (December 2003).

--

Loren Chiu, M.S., C.S.C.S.

Department of Biokinesiology and Physical Therapy

University of Southern California

[Guest guest]

Typically when people refer to neural fatigue, they refer to the central nervous

system (CNS) with little or no mention of the peripheral nervous system (PNS).

It is important to consider though, the interactions between the CNS, PNS as

well as musculoskeletal system and the endocrine system. In fact, the function

of the endocrine system is so overwhelmingly linked to nervous system function

that a more appropriate name is the neuro-endocrine system.

In general, there are two types of " overtraining " - sympathetic and

parasympathetic, both affecting the PNS and CNS. Sympathetic is thought to

occur first, with increased activity of the sympathetic nervous system, such as

increased release of catecholamines, up-regulation of beta-receptors, etc.

Parasympathetic is thought to occur second, with increased activity of the

parasympathetic nervous system, resulting in the opposite responses/adaptations

to sympathetic overtraining. While parasympathetic overtraining appears to be

well documented, whether sympathetic overtraining occurs is questionable.

Regarding neural fatigue, perhaps the two major structures in the CNS which are

of interest regarding exercise and training are the hypothalamus, which

regulates homeostasis and the pituitary gland which secretes hormones, many of

which have a primary function of signalling release of other hormones. These

hormones include the anabolic-androgenic hormones, estrogens, thyroid and

related hormones. So in theory training can (temporarily) negatively affect the

CNS - in practice it appears to be more likely when training volume is

considerably high and during prolonged periods of high volume training. This

may account for the comments regarding powerlifters not appearing to suffer from

CNS fatigue - the volume of training in powerlifting is relatively low, compared

to sports such as weightlifting as well as all " endurance sports. "

We should not, however, forget the PNS and control of muscular activity. With

strenuous resistance exercise protocols, either high- or low-frequency fatigue

occurs for durations as long as a week. Thus planning brief but frequent

periods of recovery-type training is imperative. For more regarding this, see

the recent articles of Plisk & Stone, and Chiu & in the latest Strength

and Conditioning Journal (December 2003).

--

Loren Chiu, M.S., C.S.C.S.

Department of Biokinesiology and Physical Therapy

University of Southern California