Guest guest Posted September 2, 2003 Report Share Posted September 2, 2003 I think the real question to be asked is " Why do you feel you need thermogenics in the first place? " Are you trying to reduce weight quickly for some athletic competition or bodybuilding show or are you falling for some sort of media hype that is telling you that you must look like the bodies pictured in the mags? Please don't take this as a flame or put-down in any way. If you have a reason to get below sub-normal body fat levels then some assistance is often necessary. It doesn't mean it's healthy but that's usually not a consideration. If you're really over fat -- and I mean really over fat, not just of normal fat levels but think you should look like the photos in the ads, then you need to rethink things. The supplement companies are in business to make money. That doesn't mean that all supplements are worthless; far from it. But there are many that have some very dubious worth and the claims they make are outrageous. Before you pop any of these " stims " I urge anyone on the list to decide why they want to be so lean and I'm talking about below average levels. If you are competing, well, then you have a goal and we will assume that it's not something that you're doing all the time. If you're not a competitive athlete who needs to make weight, then what is the reason? If you honestly do need to lose body fat then a lifestyle change is in order and a metamorphosis is not something that can happen quickly. There are many factors involved besides just reduced caloric intake and exercise that will determine the final outcome. Much of this has to do with genetics as well as your body's chemical makeup and how it functions. Rosemary Vernon, Editor Dolfzine On-Line Fitness, Inc.® A Not-For-Profit Foundation www.dolfzine.com Marina del Rey, CA IronRoses@... http://www.chuckietechie.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 4, 2003 Report Share Posted September 4, 2003 May I add my two cents as a Powerlifter? Occasional use of Stims help some of us stay on schedule with our heavy training sessions. As amateurs sometimes we just can't do it after a particularly hard day at work. Occasional use helps me get significant training sessions in when other factors in my life make me to tired to lift as heavy and long as I was hoping to. I lift USAPL so competing under the influence of Stims is prohibited, therefore using the stims to make weight isn’t even an issue with me. They just simply make me train heavier. Not working for a couple days prior to, and the excitement of the competition make it so I don’t even miss them during the competition. Hal Lloyd Nome AK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 5, 2003 Report Share Posted September 5, 2003 > > Before you pop any of these " stims " I urge anyone on the list to > decide why they want to be so lean and I'm talking about below > average levels. If you are competing, well, then you have a goal > and we will assume that it's not something that you're doing all the > time. If you're not a competitive athlete who needs to make weight, > then what is the reason? If you honestly do need to lose body fat > then a lifestyle change is in order and a metamorphosis is not > something that can happen quickly. There are many factors involved > besides just reduced caloric intake and exercise that will determine > the final outcome. Much of this has to do with genetics as well as > your body's chemical makeup and how it functions. Most people want to be lean (read: below-average bodyfat) for the purpose of appearance, and I don't think it's right for anyone else to criticize or trivialize that goal...... only to advise them not to sacrifice their health in pursuit of fat loss. As for athletes, it stands to reason that one should have to achieve an optimal bodyfat level for optimal performance, but I do think that athletes sometimes get too concerned with it and compromise their training to get lean. Gates Gig Harbor, WA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2003 Report Share Posted September 8, 2003 Hal Lloyd wrote: <<Occasional use of Stims help some of us stay on schedule with our heavy training sessions. As amateurs sometimes we just can't do it after a particularly hard day at work. Occasional use helps me get significant training sessions in when other factors in my life make me to tired to lift as heavy and long as I was hoping to.>> **** The key word here is " occasional " and as long as you have no health conditions that would cause you problems from something like this, why not? You are not adapting to this stuff so you get benefit out of it. If you use it before every workout, it would begin to lose it affect and eventually you would have to take more to get the same benefits or simply have to stop using it altogether. Gates wrote: <<Most people want to be lean (read: below-average bodyfat) for the purpose of appearance, and I don't think it's right for anyone else to criticize or trivialize that goal...... only to advise them not to sacrifice their health in pursuit of fat loss.>> ****My comments are not critical and the situation is far from trivial. What I want to know is " appearance for what? " A bodybuilding show, or something that people do all the time? There's a huge difference. Assuming that a person has no contraindications (and there are many) and is not getting ready for some event, my personal opinion is that they need to think thermogenics through very carefully. For someone who has a reasonable body fat loss goal, we all know that the closer one gets to the ideal the harder it is to lose the fat. A bit of an assist at the very end might be okay assuming that the individual could maintain that level WITHOUT thermogenics after discontinuing use. There are two problems here. The first is " reasonable " which does not mean how the people who are pictured in the muscle glossies look. Believe me they do a lot of very unhealthy things to get that way and they pay the price at some time. Most people will never look like that using over the counter supplements. There's more to the mix than what the advertising hype would like you to believe so the manufacturer can empty your pocketbook. Thermogenics tend to be addictive. What happens after two years of continuous use when you start to feel really lousy, your blood pressure is up, you want to get pregnant, or whatever and you have to discontinue the product? Now your body has to re-regulate itself and this takes time. We're not talking a couple of weeks, but months and sometimes over a year, depending on how long a person has been using these drugs. Even for the occasional user who wants to drop below a normal body fat level, the reason should be a good one, not just because, gosh it would be fun to see how you looked. There is no doubt that you will look very good indeed. Can you then live with the fact that you can't hold on to this condition and live a normal life? Believe me, I'm not telling people that it's good to be over fat. But OTH, being too thin isn't good either . Unfortunately many people do not have a good grasp of what normal body fat levels should be thanks to the constant media barrage which is put out there so you will spend money. What I am saying is that there are better ways to go about losing body fat than thermogenics for the average person who is not a competitive athlete. Of course, competitive athletes shouldn't be on this stuff all the time either. Unfortunately we all want a quick fix. When it comes to fat loss there is no such thing. I am not any happier about the situation than anyone else but I've learned to accept it because I don't like the alternatives. Rosemary Vernon, Editor Dolfzine On-Line Fitness, Inc.® A Not-For-Profit Foundation www.dolfzine.com Marina del Rey, CA IronRoses@... http://www.chuckietechie.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 9, 2003 Report Share Posted September 9, 2003 Thanks Rosemary I suspected your reply would be both conservative and reasonable. So much of this thread on Thermogenics was in reference to bodybuilding and appearance, I wanted to take the discussion to stimulants and strength training for those who may benefit. If anyone else has any experience with using stimulants and strength training that they want to share...My favorite nervous system stimulant prior to a heavy squat session is still a Grande 4 shot Latte!! Hal Lloyd Nome AK Rosemary Vernon wrote: Hal Lloyd wrote: <heavy training sessions. As amateurs sometimes we just can't do it after a particularly hard day at work. Occasional use helps me get significant training sessions in when other factors in my life make me to tired to lift as heavy and long as I was hoping to.>> **** The key word here is " occasional " and as long as you have no health conditions that would cause you problems from something like this, why not? You are not adapting to this stuff so you get benefit out of it. If you use it before every workout, it would begin to lose it affect and eventually you would have to take more to get the same benefits or simply have to stop using it altogether. Gates wrote: <purpose of appearance, and I don't think it's right for anyone else to criticize or trivialize that goal...... only to advise them not to sacrifice their health in pursuit of fat loss.>> ****My comments are not critical and the situation is far from trivial. What I want to know is " appearance for what? " A bodybuilding show, or something that people do all the time? There's a huge difference. Assuming that a person has no contraindications (and there are many) and is not getting ready for some event, my personal opinion is that they need to think thermogenics through very carefully. For someone who has a reasonable body fat loss goal, we all know that the closer one gets to the ideal the harder it is to lose the fat. A bit of an assist at the very end might be okay assuming that the individual could maintain that level WITHOUT thermogenics after discontinuing use. There are two problems here. The first is " reasonable " which does not mean how the people who are pictured in the muscle glossies look. Believe me they do a lot of very unhealthy things to get that way and they pay the price at some time. Most people will never look like that using over the counter supplements. There's more to the mix than what the advertising hype would like you to believe so the manufacturer can empty your pocketbook. Thermogenics tend to be addictive. What happens after two years of continuous use when you start to feel really lousy, your blood pressure is up, you want to get pregnant, or whatever and you have to discontinue the product? Now your body has to re-regulate itself and this takes time. We're not talking a couple of weeks, but months and sometimes over a year, depending on how long a person has been using these drugs. Even for the occasional user who wants to drop below a normal body fat level, the reason should be a good one, not just because, gosh it would be fun to see how you looked. There is no doubt that you will look very good indeed. Can you then live with the fact that you can't hold on to this condition and live a normal life? Believe me, I'm not telling people that it's good to be over fat. But OTH, being too thin isn't good either . Unfortunately many people do not have a good grasp of what normal body fat levels should be thanks to the constant media barrage which is put out there so you will spend money. What I am saying is that there are better ways to go about losing body fat than thermogenics for the average person who is not a competitive athlete. Of course, competitive athletes shouldn't be on this stuff all the time either. Unfortunately we all want a quick fix. When it comes to fat loss there is no such thing. I am not any happier about the situation than anyone else but I've learned to accept it because I don't like the alternatives. Rosemary Vernon, Editor Dolfzine On-Line Fitness, Inc.® A Not-For-Profit Foundation www.dolfzine.com Marina del Rey, CA IronRoses@... http://www.chuckietechie.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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