Re: Nutrition Information - Chek

July 8, 2003

Do you realize you can get most of this on Dolfzine in a series of

the same name plus a bunch of other articles on nutrition without

the cost? Of course we always appreciate your tax deductible

donation to offset our expenses but you can still access the

information without handing over any green.

I realize this is also only one chapter out of an entire course but

I am assuming it is fairly representative of how the other material

is presented. It reminds me somewhat of the mainstream media in

that the information has just enough common sense to make it sound

factual while at the same time inserting a bunch of scares. Just

because it's referenced means little because although references are

helpful in making a decision, much of the research done nowadays is

sponsored by a special interest group, and results can be

manipulated. This is something I learned full well right on this

list.

As far as the chapter that was put up, three things jumped out at me

immediately as being on the scare-tactic side.

First, there is no doubt that highly processed foods are not good

for people to eat most of the time. OTH, just because you don't

understand what some chemical name is doesn't mean it's bad. If you

took natural foods and broke them down into their chemical

compositions, you would find many of the same chemicals. On top of

that, many natural foods have some very toxic substances and humans

have been eating them and continue to eat them with no problems.

Much of all this boils down to HOW MUCH you eat, rather than WHAT.

Second, I question the study that compares humans to cats. Cats are

almost total carnivores and have a totally different digestive

system. It's like doing experiments on rats and then trying to

extrapolate out the information to humans. Granted there are

substances that will poison any living thing but much of how we are

affected by what we eat depends on our species' metabolism.

Third, this business of how indigenous Eskimos ate is totally

irrelevant to how we are eating now. Even Eskimos don't eat the

same way any more, although this is definitely causing them some

problems. But it doesn't have to do with cooking meat; it has to do

with switching from their native diets to a Northern European style

diet in a few generations. Their metabolisms are not geared to

that. I can't imagine that most of us are going to be eating raw,

pickled meat. Considering the way meat is processed nowadays, i.e.

the kind most of us purchase, you had best cook it. In other words

we live in a different continuum; you can't compare us to native

peoples even though evolution hasn't kept up with technology. What

we should be doing and what we CAN do are very often two different

things.

And what is wrong with eating insects? Plenty of people in Africa

eat insects on a regular basis. Maybe if we could learn to eat

cockroaches and mosquitoes we wouldn't have the problems with these

pests. In fact, we might eat them to extinction just like we've

done with so many other species.

I do agree with Chek about the pharmaceutical industry which I find

to be unscrupulous and money-grubbing. A company engaged in a

medical business should have better morals. OTH, in the US we can

lay the blame at the feet of the politicians, past and present, who

are more interested in lining their pockets with hush money than

doing what is best for their constituencies.

Rosemary Vernon, Editor

Dolfzine On-Line Fitness, Inc.®

A Not-For-Profit Foundation

www.dolfzine.com

Marina del Rey, CA

IronRoses@...

http://www.chuckietechie.com

July 10, 2003

Hi everyone,

This is my first post and I've been following the debate about TVA

and Chek with a great interest.

Firstly, Jae thanks for your input, nice one mate. Hope you well

and all is good, I don't know if you remember me from Level 2 in

Encinitas.

To Joe, well firstly, regards from Hamish Hurley, rememeber him? you should.

Well, when you are talking about critical thinking, I totally

agree with you however, there's one little flaw in your theory, there

are people who do they homework, study, research, read, go to updated

Scientific back training courses (updated 2002 by the way) and those

who just criticise everything that comes from Chek's direction.

I just hope that one day I can say to people, draw your belly

buttons in/out or even sideways, especially if this makes people

better and clearly he makes people better. Wouldn't you agree?

Now, I am not going against Mel here (god bless his soul) but

doing 'Double blinded' studies on the people who have 2 cervical and

2 lumbar disks bulging, with Atlas subluxation complex and extensive

health history is not that easy. One thing for sure though, he gets them

straightened out and sends them back in the real world to do they part

for the capitalistic society.

[is this based on 's own reports? Is there any other training/diet program

that wouldn't claim the same? Does other people claiming superior results make

there system more/less valuble than what is selling? - DD]

Joe, you also must be familiar with Autonomic Nervous System and

it's two babies - Sympathetic and Parasympathetic side. Well

than you know the effects of strength training on the either of

them. Here's the question though, say you get a person who's

overweight and doesn't feel that good, but wants to put all his effort

into training in order to lose weight, what do you tell

him? Let's do some squats, cleans, B.O.R., chin ups, lunges and

crunches?

Not a bad idea, however you might have missed out

on one very, very important detail (because you didn't have 's

Extensive Health appraisal questionnaire), that he moves his bowels

once every three days, has a witch for the boss and that his wife is

sleeping with the milk man because he can't get his 'soldier' to

stand up at the right time. All because he cannot

assimilate any nutrients, due to a fast colonic transit time. Now how

can a guy ,who's adrenals about to explode, lose

weight by stimulating his Sympathetic system?

[This assumes that you subscribe to the 'naturopath' version of how the body

works and doesn't work, as obviously does. Once again you won't find a

training/diet system that doesn't have supporters - how do we find out what is

correct - is it whoever has the most disciples??? - DD]

Well, the answer is NO BLOODY WAY . Get him doing some Qi Gong/Yoga/Tai-

Chi(I don't know if you would question therapeutic application of

tai-chi, oriental people used it for gazzilion years and it

seem to work for them. Why not us?), get his food in

order, get him hydrated. Then the guy can assimilate the fats that he

eats everyday. Produce enough testosterone to get his 'friend'

working well, get his wife back - GET HIS LIFE BACK, but if you

didn't ask the right questions or don't know what system is being

over loaded, well, even the bling squirrel once in a while can find an

acorn:). However, more than likely that squirrel will sooner get ran over

by a car or get sued by a solicitor for malpractice

All the best

Keep them coming

Roland Mensikovas

London, UK

July 10, 2003

It's ironic that you would describe this missive as an example of

critical thinking, because it looks to me like a morass of

unquestioned assumptions and assertions. To put all this stuff

together in this way seems like the product of guru-inspired thought

conditioning to me.

First, since your example case is hypothetical, there isn't much

concrete that can be done in terms of questioning the particulars of

your analysis. However, I question whether you would really know

anything whatsoever about the status of his autonomic nervous system,

and even if you did, whether this would have any bearing on a general

fitness prescription.

While I have seen work showing that people with high stress levels

and inadequate rest make less progress on exercise regimens, I have

seen nothing to indicate that exercise is contraindicated or without

benefit. In fact, off the top of my head, I do remember studies

showing that exercise had positive effects on stress levels and

depression.

Another issue with an athletic trainer conduct this kind of analysis

and treatment you propose is lawsuits - in this case, I think rightly

so. As a trainer, one is qualified to train. Unless one has

seriously studied and preferably gained credentials in other

disciplines, it is foolish and unethical to assume the role of others

who have. You are proposing that the trainer assume the role of

psychologist, guidance counselor, gastroenterologist, nutritionist,

endocrinologist, and sex therapist. If a trainer suspects that

someone has a serious problem in one of these areas, the sensible,

ethical thing to do is to refer the client to someone with expertise

to treat the problem, not go launching into an assumption-laden

diagnosis involving the 'balance of the autonomic nervous system' and

commence holistic life-treatment... If you try to ply this in the

U.S., my advice is to stock up on liability insurance.

[The confidence of amateurs is the envy of professionals! - unknown - DD]

Wilbanks

ville, FL

> Hi everyone,

>

> This is my first post and I've been following the debate about TVA

> and Chek with a great interest.

>

> Firstly, Jae thanks for your input, nice one mate. Hope you well

> and all is good, I don't know if you remember me from Level 2 in

> Encinitas.

>

> To Joe, well firstly, regards from Hamish Hurley, rememeber him? you should.

>

> Well, when you are talking about critical thinking, I totally

> agree with you however, there's one little flaw in your theory, there

> are people who do they homework, study, research, read, go to updated

> Scientific back training courses (updated 2002 by the way) and those

> who just criticise everything that comes from Chek's direction.

>

> I just hope that one day I can say to people, draw your belly

> buttons in/out or even sideways, especially if this makes people

> better and clearly he makes people better. Wouldn't you agree?

>

> Now, I am not going against Mel here (god bless his soul) but

> doing 'Double blinded' studies on the people who have 2 cervical and

> 2 lumbar disks bulging, with Atlas subluxation complex and extensive

> health history is not that easy. One thing for sure though, he gets

them straightened out and sends them back in the real world to do

they part

> for the capitalistic society.

>

> [is this based on 's own reports? Is there any other

training/diet program that wouldn't claim the same? Does other people

claiming superior results make there system more/less valuble than

what is selling? - DD]

>

> Joe, you also must be familiar with Autonomic Nervous System and

> it's two babies - Sympathetic and Parasympathetic side. Well

> than you know the effects of strength training on the either of

> them. Here's the question though, say you get a person who's

> overweight and doesn't feel that good, but wants to put all his effort

> into training in order to lose weight, what do you tell

> him? Let's do some squats, cleans, B.O.R., chin ups, lunges and

> crunches?

>

> Not a bad idea, however you might have missed out

> on one very, very important detail (because you didn't have 's

> Extensive Health appraisal questionnaire), that he moves his bowels

> once every three days, has a witch for the boss and that his wife is

> sleeping with the milk man because he can't get his 'soldier' to

> stand up at the right time. All because he cannot

> assimilate any nutrients, due to a fast colonic transit time. Now how

> can a guy ,who's adrenals about to explode, lose

> weight by stimulating his Sympathetic system?

>

> [This assumes that you subscribe to the 'naturopath' version of how

the body works and doesn't work, as obviously does. Once again

you won't find a training/diet system that doesn't have supporters -

how do we find out what is correct - is it whoever has the most

disciples??? - DD]

>

> Well, the answer is NO BLOODY WAY . Get him doing some Qi Gong/Yoga/Tai-

> Chi(I don't know if you would question therapeutic application of

> tai-chi, oriental people used it for gazzilion years and it

> seem to work for them. Why not us?), get his food in

> order, get him hydrated. Then the guy can assimilate the fats that he

> eats everyday. Produce enough testosterone to get his 'friend'

> working well, get his wife back - GET HIS LIFE BACK, but if you

> didn't ask the right questions or don't know what system is being

> over loaded, well, even the bling squirrel once in a while can find an

> acorn:). However, more than likely that squirrel will sooner get ran over

> by a car or get sued by a solicitor for malpractice

>

> All the best

>

> Keep them coming

>

> Roland Mensikovas

> London, UK

July 10, 2003